Joseph Emerson, the Alaska Air pilot who tried to shut off engines mid flight, shares his story (and what comes next)

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Downtown_Parfait2873@reddit

I would like to make an offering to him personally to John Emerson : (can someone give me a way to contact him or give this message?): that if it is truly the case that the fate is not going to let you fly again can teach to you the vocation and passion of my life that was taken away from me Mar 31 of figure skating which is a flight and art, but is flight, by when a SUv going sixty through a red hit my femur and it appears to never bend again my kneebend with my leg. So I feel and experience what crushing darkness having not the ability to do what you’re meant to again, even when the world is there being meant to have you - the FAA making changes that wound those changes have been before, you just having had this accident of bad set of circumstances like had I not had a bad driver go across me, choose at that moment of fate ill fate me to have broken my leg, I would be flying still, on ice. I would love to take this opportunity to fix my spirit and brokenness to share it with John if there is any way to contact John because he could learn to figure skate from me if I taught it to him and I can still teach it even though I cannot bend and I cannot safely be upon moving over ice again. Maybe (probably) there is a book in it to be written and shared with the world where the world could see compassion is the answer and this man could fly again and my lost place in heart pit in the soul I could become undepressed again in the act of sharing the art of figure skating so John could again fly and I almost relishingly look forward to the many stupid and derisive comments to come as always they do on internet comments but, more than that I look forward to making this heartfelt offer to John because, I could come teach you figure skating for free or I could do over video, you being able to get what you may have lost to fate’s unsupportive lineup of compassion and rightness that you be the flight master and experiencer you are by in lessons (I am a twenty years of the making an experienced coach) you could figure skate and I would be making a gift of flight where I have lost the light within and this in fact would alleviate my depression and despair more than I can say too. -clare

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Kycrio@reddit

I really hope the FAA comes to the conclusion that incentivising self-medication is more dangerous rather than doubling down on stopping all mentally ill people from getting within 20 feet of an airplane.

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TheRauk@reddit

The guy took mushrooms and hallucinated (hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD)).

Nowhere in the article does it talk about him having mental issues though he claims he might be an alcoholic.

The guy took drugs, got on a plane, and almost killed everyone.

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flijarr@reddit

HPPD doesn’t happen after taking shrooms one time lmfao

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TheJohnRocker@reddit

I think that taking mushrooms was a very poor decision but they don’t last two days. What made him hallucinate while jump seating was most likely caused by sleep deprivation unless he’s lying about his time frame of when he ingested the drugs. If you stay up a full 30+ hours you’re gonna be seeing some Mickey Mouse shit.

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Picori_n_PaperDragon@reddit

I think that is a very important point - massive effects from sleep deprivation are def a thing. (Late finding this post, story, and comments. But had to chime in that that’s a distinct possibility.)

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in-den-wolken@reddit

unless he’s lying

It wouldn't be the first or the thousandth time that someone (with a smart lawyer) came up with a fictional ex post facto explanation to avoid a long prison term.

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TheRauk@reddit

It is in the article “His jail physician would later tell him that he suffered from a condition called hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD), which can cause someone who uses psychedelic mushrooms for the first time to suffer from persistent visual hallucinations or perception issues for several days afterward.

Emerson also now believes that he’s an alcoholic, although he said alcohol didn’t play a role in October’s incident.”

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Possible-Sell-74@reddit

So the problem with this is if he had taken steps to get help for this it would have barred him from his career.

Seeking medical treatment can't be a reason to loose your job.

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Livebylying@reddit

So he decided under the influence of mushrooms to get in a cockpit instead. Guy should be locked up instead of spewing a good news turnaround come back story.

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gizzweed@reddit

So he decided under the influence of mushrooms to get in a cockpit instead. Guy should be locked up instead of spewing a good news come back story.

He was not under the influence of mushrooms you dunce. They mechanically don't work that way.

It was a side effect that sustained for longer, not the actual mushrooms. There's an important distinction to be made here.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

He was absolutely under the influence (in a prolonged capacity, if his story is true) of mushrooms...not necessarily the origin "trip", but rather a prolonged after effect. Not knowing whether or not what you're experiencing is real??? That's NOT just a hangover. It was HIS choice to not only board the plane, but to out himself in a position where he could impact the flight. That is gross negligence. This guy doesn't belong on an airplane, much less flying one commercially. I have much more compassion for the passengers & crew whose lives were endangered because this guy acted irresponsibly. Sorry about his friend, but serious grief 5 - 6 years later suggests this guy is not mentally/emotionally fit to be a pilot. He very nearly killed 83+ people!!

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sheplayshockey@reddit

The serious grief #1) 5-6 years later and #2) over the loss of a close friend - there is something about this that seems extreme to me. I could understand still grieving if it was the loss of a child or a spouse.

Also, his decision as a pilot to take drugs while drunk - I am tired of hearing people blame their bad decisions on being drunk. People still have a bit of control over their actions when drunk - it may not be much, but it's enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

And then, to fly jumpseat while still tripping? That is the part that pisses me off. He knew he was not feeling well. He should have at the very least sat in the back or better yet, stayed on the ground.

I 100% agree that pilots should be able to receive treatment for depression and anxiety without it affecting their medical. I have been on medication for depression for over 30 years and used to be a pilot a very long time ago. While I have never been suicidal, others do struggle with it. I personally knew a professional pilot who took his life, (on the ground). None of us knew he was depressed. I cannot imagine going through life with untreated depression. I hope to God this story brings reform to the mental health treatment of pilots.

As for Joe and his wish to be able to fly again? Nope. Not because of his depression, (assuming treatment becomes allowed), but because he now has a history of making poor decisions. There are times you don't get a second chance - this is one of them.

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Picori_n_PaperDragon@reddit

Very late to this story, by way of another app I was on that mentioned it, so late commenting - but I absolutely agree with you & all those points. This is the nuanced take that it super important. Many of these can be true at the same time, as in this case.

He absolutely should have not been in that cockpit or even flown and I don’t think he should ever fly again. He did that action that would lead to dozens of deaths - just because by the grace of God those engines didn’t shut off, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I’m just so thankful that horrible disaster was averted due to God working through level, cool heads. I can have compassion for him and also feel certain he should never pilot commercial again.

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EconMan@reddit

If I drink and drive, getting in an accident doesn't "typically" happen, but I'm still liable because I know the risks.

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noway1233@reddit

Magic mushrooms last about 6-8 hours. This is a nutcase pilot who is trying to absolve himself of any blame by PRETENDING that they were still in his system, when in fact they were long gone. Lock up this nutcase! Next time he'll probably blame the sushi.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

I actually tend to agree with you. His story just doesn't quite make sense & feels contrived. Having said that, I knew a guy in college that had a psychotic break (he was diagnosed as bi-polar shortly afterwards) and it appeared to have been brought on by taking shrooms while on Spring Break. I was friends with several of his fraternity brothers who were with him - they all shroomed together, but he never seemed to come back down afterwards. Perhaps they triggered a pre-existing condition that had been dormant previously.

Either way, this guy shouldn't be even allowed on a plane, much less flying one. He's either lying to cover up a much more serious condition or he put himself in a situation where he could have caused great harm. The shroom thing seems outlandish, although, based on that story I mentioned, it's possible for psychedelics to trigger pre-existing conditions. My compassion is for the passengers & crew whose lives he endangered, not him!!

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God_Damnit_Nappa@reddit

Weird come back story considering he's likely going to jail for a very long time.

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plhought@reddit

Then he isn’t fit for this career. Period. End of story.

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Possible-Sell-74@reddit

Then what happens. Who decides, the pilot the airlines? How do they find out.

It just stays a secret

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plhought@reddit

Nope.

Ethically, one would disclose these things to your CAME.

If you're keeping secrets about your fitness in the cockpit - probably shouldn't be up there.

I don't mean to sound calace, but bones of it is - I don't have any sympathy for this individual.

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Possible-Sell-74@reddit

What about the responsibilities of one's self or family are they really gonna throw away a $150k+ plus job for the sake of honestly and ethics.

A system has to be in place to levitate the struggles.

Feel free to have no sympathy for the pilot. But the system isn't working as intended, and needs adjusting.

Otherwise pilots will continue to not seek help and be in the very same boat this guy is here.

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plhought@reddit

Gotta love the down votes as usual.

Reality is this career isn't entitled to everyone.

That 150k is not a right.

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Possible-Sell-74@reddit

The reality is you need a system to alleviate the stresses of flyimg 200 people at a time. Better access to medical and mental health care.

A system that encourages honesty

And a system that protects not only the passangers in the sky but also the pilots.

The reason you are getting down voted is because in the aviation industry, we try and find solutions not place blame.

Playing the blame game doesn't change problems or lead to better outcomes for everyone else. It just gives closure to people affected.

A much better way to achieve closure and peace of mind is changing the system that allowed such an incident to be caused in the first place.

(in this pilots case, it was a lack of mental health treatment, which led him to do stupid things like self medicate.)

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plhought@reddit

If you need better access to medical and mental care that sounds like a societal issue - not just an aviation safety one.

There is no blame game here. In-fact it's those who are playing the blame game trying to abrogate the singular responsibility of this individual to the FAA, airline, and others.

It's his license. His career. If he is self-medicating beyond the scope of his medical - then he doesn't have the fitness to pilot an aircraft. Period.

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Possible-Sell-74@reddit

👍

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

I agree that pilots should have access to mental health care without losing their jobs, unless their condition would make them unsuitable to fly. Taking prescription pills for depression should not disqualify a pilot.

This guy, though, should never be allowed to fly again. He's lost any benefit of doubt with his actions. I'm also not sure I believe his story. It just seems contrived. In any event, actions like his, regardless of the cause, should keep him permanently grounded.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

This subreddit is open for civil, friendly discussion about our common interest, aviation. Excessively rude, mean, unfriendly, or hostile conduct is not permitted.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

Yep.

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TheRauk@reddit

Help for what? He took drugs. He isn’t suffering from mental illness anymore than somebody who gets drunk and hits a car killing a family.

There are people who legitimately suffer from mental illness. This is a guy who took some shrooms, had a bad reaction, and almost killed a lot of people. Nothing more.

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Kiramiraa@reddit

It’s been a while since I heard his story, but I’m pretty sure he had undiagnosed mental health issues, or at the very least, was dealing with grief at the time of the incident. Not to mention the fact that drug induced psychosis (not just a bad trip) is still psychosis; a mental illness.

What he did was wrong, but I do think there is a place for compassion here. He clearly regrets it.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

Fine, be compassionate, but don't let this guy fly planes ever again. That career is over!

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Kiramiraa@reddit

I agree with that, but the guy I was replying to was taking that one too far and claiming that the guy wasn’t suffering from mental illness, which he very clearly was.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

I agree. That is not a normal reaction to psilocybin...unless the user had a pre-existing condition, possibly even one that was dormant. Either way, we agree. I don't think the guy needs to go to prison, just permanently grounded. Hopefully this case will lead to some positive changes to way pilot's mental health care is dealt with

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Specter017@reddit

There's more to the story than what the article disclosed.

Joe had been struggling with mental health for years and never disclosed it to the FAA as he was afraid of losing his job. When his best friend died, his depression worsened and he started drinking more. When they did the memorial trip to Seattle, his depression influenced his choice to take the mushrooms in the first place.

His point is, had he been able to get the mental health treatment he needed, he would've made the responsible choice to decline the mushrooms and avoid this whole situation.

I would recommend watching MentourPilots video on the incident.

Just saying this news article doesn't disclose the background.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

It can if your condition endangers the lives of others

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austinh1999@reddit

I haven’t read this article but did watch the interview. And he did state he tried the mushrooms as a treatment for depression. Whether that was to garner sympathy points idk. In addition there is (limited) research that psilocybin, the active chemical in mushrooms that make you feel high, is a viable treatment for depression. Though not related to his case the same is true for ketamine, though its research is much more studied and there are active ketamine clinics right now. The difference is between the 2, the ketamine is medical grade and closely monitored. Whereas the mushrooms he took were likely from an unknown source grown in an illegal operation.

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Pootang_Wootang@reddit

The problem is he started doing drugs in the first place knowing it would ruin his career. It’s not like it’s a mystery

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xavembo@reddit

thank you former president nixon

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Plane-Bee-374@reddit

“My substance that I used was primarily alcohol, which is a depressant, to treat a depressive state,” Emerson said, adding that he’s now in treatment and prioritizing his mental health.

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phenixcitywon@reddit

all I'm reading here is someone picking their words very carefully.

he's not actually saying he has a mental issue, he said he was in "a depressive state"

and "in treatment and prioritizing his mental health" is standard Betty Ford-ese in the celebrity PR/damage control circuit.

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Plane-Bee-374@reddit

I mean I don’t disagree that the guy made a huge mistake and should be responsible for his actions. I’m glad no one was killed and he is facing consequences for his actions. There’s no getting around the fact that he could have killed 83 people.

Also:

In 1980, the third edition of the Manual, DSM-3, identified alcoholism as a subset of a mental health disorder. The current edition, DSM-5, classifies alcoholism, now referred to as Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD) or Substance Use Disorder (SUD), as a mental disorder presenting both physical and mental symptoms.

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phenixcitywon@reddit

where in that quote is he saying he's an alcoholic though?

cracking a beer after his cat died because he was sad would be "using" "alcohol" to "treat" that "depressive state'

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Plane-Bee-374@reddit

The article states it in the sentence before.

Emerson also now believes that he’s an alcoholic, although he said alcohol didn’t play a role in October’s incident.

“My substance that I used was primarily alcohol, which is a depressant, to treat a depressive state,” Emerson said, adding that he’s now in treatment and prioritizing his mental health. He also said he accepts full responsibility for his actions – actions that he said have actually changed his life for the better.

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phenixcitywon@reddit

"believes he's an alcoholic"

more spin nonsense. and it still isn't actually his quote.

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Plane-Bee-374@reddit

I don’t know why we’re doing this.

Listen, I agree. He seems like a putz grabbing at a comeback. But don’t hit me with this “well ackshewally garbage”.

Alcoholism is a mental illness was and this journalist summarized his condition as reported to him. An article is not a transcript of a conversation.

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phenixcitywon@reddit

it's not just being a putz grabbing at a comeback, though, it's deliberately picking words to manipulate a perception.

and it's clearly worked on you.

you know nothing firsthand about this person and you're convinced he was just some down-on-his-luck alcoholic that was experimenting with other forms of medication, based on nothing more than a set-up fluff piece and skillfully-picked, self-serving words that don't actually say any of that.

and it's worked even better on others: some posters in here are fully ready to excuse this person because he was just the victim of an overly-rigid system that can't deal with certain classes of illness, and this brave person is speaking out and creating a nonprofit to combat this injustice that befell him.

meanwhile, it's complete bullshit. in the story itself he explained why he actually took the shrooms: he was on a fucking bender with his buddies:

Joe Emerson had been struggling over the death of his best friend, Scott, a pilot who died while on a run six years earlier. Emerson had been away for the weekend with friends, celebrating and remembering Scott.

On Friday night, the group took psychedelic mushrooms – a drug that can make you hallucinate and typically has effects that last a few hours.

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Plane-Bee-374@reddit

I’m not convinced of any such thing. I don’t know why we’re disagreeing.

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Plane-Bee-374@reddit

I mean I don’t disagree that the guy made a huge mistake and should be responsible for his actions. I’m glad no one was killed and he is facing consequences for his actions. There’s no getting around the fact that he could have killed 83 people.

Also:

In 1980, the third edition of the Manual, DSM-3, identified alcoholism as a subset of a mental health disorder. The current edition, DSM-5, classifies alcoholism, now referred to as Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD) or Substance Use Disorder (SUD), as a mental disorder presenting both physical and mental symptoms.

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phenixcitywon@reddit

I love this bit from the article:

Joe Emerson had been struggling over the death of his best friend, Scott, a pilot who died while on a run six years earlier. Emerson had been away for the weekend with friends, celebrating and remembering Scott.

On Friday night, the group took psychedelic mushrooms – a drug that can make you hallucinate and typically has effects that last a few hours.

Yeah, grieving, undiagnosed mental issues, and/or alcoholism my ass.

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BrattyBookworm@reddit

Ok but he took them two days before. They aren’t supposed to last that long and I understand he thought they wouldn’t be in his system anymore. Poor guy had an adverse reaction, obviously an edge case.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

Poor guy?? You mean the guy that jeopardized the lives of 83+ passengers & crew?? That guy?? My compassion is for THEM!! His story also feels contrived. I'm not sure I buy it. Either way, it shouldn't matter. This guy needs to be permanently grounded!

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yeomra885@reddit

Not even close to the whole story. Slinging shit like its facts.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

I agree...it reads like a story concocted to explain away his behavior. This guy shouldn't ever be allowed on an airplane, much less flying one!

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austinh1999@reddit

I haven’t read this article but did watch the interview. And he did state he tried the mushrooms as a treatment for depression. Whether that was to garner sympathy points idk. In addition there is (limited) research that psilocybin, the active chemical in mushrooms that make you feel high, is a viable treatment for depression. Though not related to his case the same is true for ketamine, though its research is much more studied and there are active ketamine clinics right now. The difference is between the 2, the ketamine is medical grade and closely monitored. Whereas the mushrooms he took were likely from an unknown source grown in an illegal operation.

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TheRauk@reddit

He took the mushrooms out partying with his buddies, it is again in the article that u/SchleppyJ4 posted that you didn’t read.

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jedensuscg@reddit

He said he watched the interview, which is a lot more accurate than the article. The article is just quoting things is said, but not necessarily accurately or including all relevant information. The interview IS what the article is about after all, so straight from the horses mouth and all that.

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TheRauk@reddit

Yes the interview with the dude who ate mushrooms, boarded a plane as flight crew, and then tried to kill everyone. I mean what could be biased in that interview?

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rocket_enthusiast@reddit

I so agree with that the person said at the faa conference. As someone that has struggled with mental health and gotten better with meds, i would much rather someone medicated for depression fly my plane than someone not

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

I'd rather someone who's not suffering from a mental illness fly my plane. Treated or not.

You can't become a pilot in the first place if you're colourblind. Mental illness should also be a disqualifying factor. Probably more so

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WhiskeyVendetta@reddit

Very black and white no nonsense approach that will get you hounded for being very mean… but I like it.

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TDNR@reddit

Black and white is a funny way to say oversimplified. He’s not being hounded for being mean, but for being stupid and impractical.

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WhiskeyVendetta@reddit

You’re not allowed to fly if you’re hearing is impaired it’s black and white to that degree so if your mental health is impaired it should be the same.

You might not like it, you don’t have to but that’s my opinion and I’m not asking you to change my mind.

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flijarr@reddit

Please tell me how you plan to screen for mental health. At the very most, you can do a psych evaluation on all potential and current pilots. But those pilots are just going to lie anyway, because they know that if they tell the truth, they’ll get fired.

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fadingvapour@reddit

You’re not allowed to fly if you’re hearing is impaired

In certain situations, you can actually fly while completely deaf. If you are not required to have a radio in certain airspace, then why would you need to hear?

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WhiskeyVendetta@reddit

Okay so people who are colour blind can only have a PPL and fly in airspace’s where no one else is around, sounds fair enough.

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starzuio@reddit

How is that relevant for 121 ops?

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

So how do you solve the paradox that you will now inevitably be flown by a pilot with undiagnosed, untreated and hidden mental illness?

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

Harsh criminal punishments for pilots who lie. Mandatory mental health checks. Mandatory regular drug testing. They already have mandatory physical checks. Extend it to mental health and drug checks

The solution is easy and affordable pilots just don't want to accept it. Which from their point of view fair enough. From a passengers point of view I don't care.

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

This just tells me you don’t understand much about mental health.

Tell me, how do you check for depression in an aviation medical? How do you do it at all?

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

Ask them. Check what drugs they've taken.

Make harsh criminal punishments if they lie. It's that simple.

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flijarr@reddit

If I’m a pilot with depression, why would I ever admit to having depression just because my boss “just asked” me? I’d lose my job. It’s not that easy.

Let’s say someone self medicates with alcohol. How would you ever know? As long as they aren’t drinking on the job, you’d have no way of knowing unless you made it illegal for all pilots to drink at all, even on their days off.

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

Congratulations, you’ve thought of the system already in place minus the harsh criminal punishments as if those would be a better deterrent than having your license immediately revoked.

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

And the current system largely works well. Just needs to be enforced better to weed out the mentally deficient pilots

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rydude88@reddit

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. How do you find out if they have depression if they just deny it? They would be incentevised to lie as telling the truth would lose them their job. Your solution is so obviously flawed that I'm shocked you can't see it. It has nothing to do with pilots not wanting it, it is just a shit solution.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

Hmm idk maybe do like other industries and require medical checkups and other tests to show they are capable of piloting. Not that hard

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canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit

Your opinions are like a shitty onion. Each layer is worse.

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rocket_enthusiast@reddit

The problem is that in many cases there is no way to tell if someone is having mental issues if someone does not want to talk about it!

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rocket_enthusiast@reddit

Many people can be suffering internally and not show any of it even to a trained professional

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MiniTab@reddit

Such an ignorant comment.

Pilots are human beings. They have problems like everyone else, and in fact often have unique issues most others don’t have to deal with. Having to be away from your friends and family half the month for example.

A well known acronym in the aviation community is “AIDS”. Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome. I’ve personally seen a lot of people that appear to have undiagnosed mental issues in this industry. But they’re absolutely terrified to even admit it, much less treat it. So they self medicate with alcohol.

A general public demanding pilots be perfect is what has created this absurd standard, which of course leads to people doing nothing about it.

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

We don't tolerate pilots with physical ailments (I don't think you'll argue in favour of blind people being allowed to fly for example). We don't tolerate pilots with mental illnesses.

It's that simple. If you can't handle the stress of your job holding the lives of 1000s of people a month then resign. It's too important to leave the chance.

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Possible-Sell-74@reddit

Yea so the problem with your take lies in, what do you do with someone who has dedicated tens of thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours dedicated into the pilot training. To get a very lucrative job that doesn't translate well to other fields.

Tough luck?

It can't be like that there needs to be a better system to prevent rash decisions such as self medicating or lying about your health.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

The military and other industries do it all the time, stop trying to make excuses for someone who should have done the right thing and never stepped on the plane to begin with.

What's gonna cost the company less? Firing someone like this or dealing with the lawsuits and payouts to all the families that lost loved ones because this clown downed a plane because he was on drugs that he wasn't prescribed.

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Possible-Sell-74@reddit

Well these will keep occurring.

Seems like you have no issue with that since you are stating and referring to a system that failed its pilots.

Accidents like this one and German wings 215 will continue without a proper solution.

Excuses or whatever something has got to change.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

And again, I'm not saying things don't need to change. I'll admit I have no idea all the issues pilots deal with, or how many incidents happen like this. That doesn't change the fact this dude attempted to murder 83 people and doesn't take any personal responsibility for taking drugs he was not prescribed, attempted to operate a vehicle with under the influence, and wants to try and pretend like he can be trusted to fly again. Don't try to change this into a different topic. This is about a man who made a poor decision when he could have easily called in sick.

If I take shrooms, get in my car and drive into a school bus full of kids because I thought it was a giant yellow demon, I don't get to turn around and blame depression or anything else. I should have never been driving in the first place. Stop giving excuses and trying to turn this into some charitable movement to raise awareness.

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dont-blame-spongebob@reddit

Uh, except he wasn't the pilot or copilot.

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MiniTab@reddit

Reading fail. Try again, as you clearly didn’t understand a single word I wrote.

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canopy-tv-taphandle@reddit

You don’t know what you’re talking about, my dude

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Ignorant take. 100% of humans will experience depression at some point in their lives. Also, colorblindness, like depression, exists on a spectrum. There are thousands of pilot flying right now that are “colorblind.”

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starzuio@reddit

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK559078/#:~:text=Major%20depressive%20disorder%20is%20a,in%20women%20than%20in%20men.

According to this source, it has a lifetime average prevalence of 12%. Far cry from your statement.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

MDD is but one of many depressive disorders in the DSM. Not that it matters, but here’s another article that lists a prevalence of between 10-20% in a given year.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2671413

Most of the other listed disorders in your article have an individual prevalence of between 1 and 10%. Conservatively, we’re at a quarter, or more, of the population that meets the diagnostic criteria just for depressive disorders, in single year.

Statistics get worse over the average lifetime when you include other disorders. 46% total prevalence of diagnosable mental illness with depression being a common, though not central, symptom in many disorders. Mind you, it’s generally understood that mental illness is significantly under diagnosed & under treated

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/208678#:~:text=Anxiety%20disorders%20were%20the%20most,17.3%25%20had%20three%20or%20more.

The rest of the population will experience at least minor/episodic/self-resolving symptoms of depression related to bereavement, divorce/relational issues, health problems, inter-personal struggles, trauma, etc etc etc. Comorbidity. Blah blah blah.

Point being, the FAA has their head up their ass. This stuff has all been studied and we know that depression, at one point or another, is a near universal human experience. People that receive adequate treatment are generally going to abuse drugs and alcohol at significantly reduced rates and be better, more productive human beings. This situation was largely preventable and the feds share at least some of the blame.

[-]

starzuio@reddit

Okay, but this is still far cry from the original number of 100% of rhe population.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK215119/#:~:text=Fundamentally%2C%20such%20depressive%20symptoms%20as,and%20losses%20of%20everyday%20life.

“Fundamentally, such depressive symptoms as sad mood, pessimism, and lethargy, are universal human experiences and are considered normal reactions to the struggles, disappointments, and losses of everyday life.”

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

100% of humans will experience depression at some point in their lives.

Utter and total lie.

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canopy-tv-taphandle@reddit

The fields of psychology, psychiatry & modern medicine disagree. Everyone experience depressive episodes at some point.

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TruthImpressive7253@reddit

Sayeth shrinks…job security

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sw1ssdot@reddit

love how this guy also thinks we can test for every drug known to man

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canopy-tv-taphandle@reddit

I mean you can with a gas chromatagraph. It’s expensive, slow, and will catch designer drugs that aren’t even illegal. What are they gonna do? Test 100k pilots daily, 365 days a year? You’ll also catch legal drugs at therapeutic doses that are FAA banned. Hope everyone is disclosing tylenol, ibuprofen and diphenhydramine on the their 8500. Suffice to say, he doesn’t have any idea what he’s saying.

[-]

phenixcitywon@reddit

sorry for the downvotes - "i can haz undiagnosed mental illness" should be a redditor in-joke at this point.

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God_Damnit_Nappa@reddit

"Turning off my replies because I'm a fucking coward that refuses to see multiple sides to a story and has no intention of changing my ass backwards views"

Fixed that for you

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rocket_enthusiast@reddit

Firstly I disagree with you that someone should not be able to be a pilot if they had depression once in their life and now feel better and have been stable for some time. Secondly this leads to people who have depression to try to self medicate which can have disastrous consequences like this one as opposed to being properly treated

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

I mean if a mentally ill pilot wants to lie and fly planes then there should be severe criminal consequences.

We don't tolerate pilots with physical ailments that prevents them doing their job so we certainly shouldn't tolerate pilots with mental illnesses either. Baffling to me that people even contemplate the idea.

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rocket_enthusiast@reddit

Unfortunately if you do that you are in the current situation where people are afraid of the consequences so don’t say anything. The only way for people to be honest about their symptoms is if they know they can get the help they need! Besides after they do it they can’t fly for few months while they are monitored to make sure they are stable!

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No-Sheepherder5481@reddit

It a shit situation but at the end of the day passenger safety comes before pilots careers.

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Dudeinairport@reddit

As a friend of mine said “you mean all these motherfuckers are flying UNMEDICATED!”

I have a strong desire to get my PPL, but I’m on a low dose of an antidepressant. So my goal is to try and get off it. But I don’t know if that’s possible.

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Atlanta_Mane@reddit

It's amazing what could get done if the public applied the same logic to driving their personal 1-ton vehicles as we do to airplanes.

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Mean-Independent9763@reddit

You shouldn't get any pilot's license. You are a risk at flight

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Dudeinairport@reddit

Duh?

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Meow-zelTov@reddit

Unpopular comment that may get me downvoted to hell: you do not need to disclose this. Most don’t.

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L0stAlbatr0ss@reddit

Hell…I didn’t disclose an alcohol/motor vehicle arrest/charge/conviction when I got my first class 3…it was probably 13 years prior, but they still granted it…so nobody checked.

I wound up not ever using that medical, it lapsed, and I got a new one this year.

After having much more experience and knowing people who got nailed for failure to disclose such things, I agonized over whether to lie again or disclose. Made the call to sack up and disclose. AME made me do some light HIMS paperwork discussing the event, the outcome, my current relationship with alcohol, and my plans re: alcohol.

They granted it, but now I’m on the radar…but no more than anyone else. If I have another incident, I have to report…just like everyone else who’s never been in trouble.

This is not advice.

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Meow-zelTov@reddit

I mean, there is a big difference between disclosing a conviction and Prozac. I’m glad they were lenient and you’ve been able to stay in the sky.

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ElBandidoPR@reddit

Please delete this comment. First, it’s not true at all, they do have access to that information. Second, because it isn’t true, you may have legal repercussions because this is giving unsound legal advice. Save your career, delete this comment.

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TDNR@reddit

How do they have access to private medical information if you don’t share access with them?

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Hypnotist30@reddit

They don't until you are going for medical clearance. Same goes for a DOT physical.

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BeefInGR@reddit

Hell, you can straight up lie to the DOT on the form.

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Dudeinairport@reddit

I’d be more worried about the fines/jail-time if they found out I didn’t disclose this.

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Meow-zelTov@reddit

Exactly.

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Meow-zelTov@reddit

The likelihood of the FAA knowing who I am, what I do for a living, etc etc is 0 to not a chance in hell.

And no, they are not pulling the med records of a PPL. Sorry, but the government has no time to invest in doing that, nor the resources to do that. I mean my god, they don’t even make PPL’s re-qualify after an extended period of time, nor do they run logbook checks.

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usmcmech@reddit

FAA: Self medicate with alcohol like a real man.

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WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot@reddit

Denzel Washington in Flight is actually the perfect model.

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matreo987@reddit

every time i think about the movie flight i imagine the scene of him chugging the gallon bottle of vodka in his car LOL

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BradBrady@reddit

Fucking nailed that role man and the life of an alcoholic. That court scene was a thing of beauty

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X-Bones_21@reddit

Just have John Goodman’s character (the dealer) stationed at every airport/FBO.

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algebramclain@reddit

Banana boat’s a’comin’! Insanely great scene, every minute right up to the Joe Cocker song kicking in at the elevator.

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Washout22@reddit

I flew with a dude who did lines in the lav. Great dude and great pilot. He was energetic, but not in anyway unsafe etc. He did it for years and got randomly popped one day. Stopped doing it, still flies.

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WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot@reddit

Did he lose his license when he popped and have to work to get it back?

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Washout22@reddit

Yep

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PhuckADuck2nite@reddit

Better aviation through self medication.

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15438473151455@reddit

The medical for becoming a pilot is super super strict. Many health conditions that people consider common or mild are enough to exclude you. Same with Air Traffic Control.

When you apply for the job / industry there are warnings that the average person might not pass once they get to 55.

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trashpandaexpress74@reddit

Just like the military...which by your username checks out

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rasmorak@reddit

Based

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speedracer73@reddit

The right stuff!

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L0stAlbatr0ss@reddit

The White Stuff

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zackks@reddit

Just follow the 12 foot rule

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Mammoth-Wait-3994@reddit

not funny in this industry

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usmcmech@reddit

Not remotely funny but it’s the truth

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fly-guy@reddit

But try not to be caught, otherwise we will nail your balls to the wall too.

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ScottOld@reddit

That’s only for Russian airlines

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LawnDartDriver@reddit

Agreed! I had to remove myself from flying to deal with some stuff and be medicated. Once I was, it’s amazing how much safer I am today than I was before, even when I didn’t know how much that stuff was affecting me.

Since I still can’t fly, I get to hear a lot of pilots stories who are just like me except they are internally dealing with it and hoping it gets better. I do my best to give them options and tell them to seek treatment for things, but I can understand why guys don’t.

I was extremely lucky that my company didn’t just say call us when you’re better and found a paying job for me that keeps me on the seniority list….im grateful, but I’m not the norm.

Pilots shouldn’t have to choose between feeding their families and getting the mental health treatment they deserve. If the flying public knew how many guys are just “dealing with it”, there would be an uproar for reform.

The FAA treats medication as the problem and not the solution. It would be like telling a pilot they are safer flying with a massive headache than taking aspirin…. The condition is what is unsafe, the treatment is what makes it safe.

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Klutzy_Albatross_448@reddit

Agreed! As the wife of a pilot, I doubt that the general public knows that their pilot is encouraged to white knuckle it alone with death, divorce or other life issue. The FAA requires pilots to disclose any psychotherapy or talk therapy they undergo.

Because of this, many pilots are hesitant to participate in beneficial programs like marital counseling or grief therapy. Anecdotally, I've observed a high divorce rate among pilots over the 25+ years I've been married to one.

After you disclose therapy, you then have to continually 'prove' that it's no longer an issue each time you renew your medical certificate, which, for pilots 40 and older, must be done every six months. Any disclosure means you have to use a supplementary process with the FAA which takes extra time. No license means no livelihood.

As you mentioned, pilots must also declare any mental health diagnoses. The FAA disqualifies pilots from flying if they use antidepressants, such as Wellbutrin. If a pilot starts taking it, they immediately lose their ability to work in the career they’ve spent years building, often through grueling hours in lesser jobs.

While it is possible to restore the medical certificate, the supplemental process can take over 18 months and cost thousands of dollars, as it did for a pilot friend of ours. For many, it's simply not worth the hassle, not to mention the lost income so they struggle alone like Joseph Emerson. The FAA needs to update this archaic approach.

You throw in corporate BS and reduced equipment reliability and I'm surprised this doesn't occur more often. My heart goes out to Joseph and his family.

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ZippyDan@reddit

I also would rather someone (medicated for depression) fly my plane rather than someone not (fly my plane).

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77_Gear@reddit

Menteur Pilot made a good video on the topic. Really a touching story.

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

Casey at 74 gear also made an interesting video about the topic. It was tone deaf and remarkably stupid, but it was interesting.

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Frog_Prophet@reddit

TLDW. What did he say?

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

Basically it’s no big deal. Pilots have nothing to with about.

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Frog_Prophet@reddit

What the fuck is wrong with him?

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mediumwee@reddit

I think his true colors are finally just showing. Honestly after I saw a video where he said he prefers to deadhead in uniform because he’s treated better at the airport, I was like, “Uhhh I don’t think we’d hang out on a layover together.” I’m talking international long haul deadhead straight to a layover. In uniform. 🤯

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Cucker_-_Tarlson@reddit

What's wrong with wearing a uniform on a deadhead? I'm guessing that you don't need to wear it, but what's wrong with choosing to wear it?

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mediumwee@reddit

Honestly nothing. Just seems like not my kind of weird. I wanna be comfy and blend in before a 13 hour flight, not wear my uniform around at the airport. If I’m being truly self reflective I’m being a bit of an ass for judging someone based off their personal preferences. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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fly_awayyy@reddit

About the only reason I commute in uniform is just to clear KCM with my beverages and even with that I have a zip up or light jacket over my uniform.

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Optimal-Vermicelli50@reddit

That's pro status, he's not a douche for not wanting all his liquids jacked by TSA. Can't tell you how many times I have my badge and uniform in my bag but get randomed at KCM in street clothes, then a smurf tells me I can't have over 3.4oz of liquids or gels in my bag.

Yes. I. Can. Would you like me to go change, and miss my commute?

So options are do that...OR...I can just wear my uniform through then throw a light jacket over I don't sit next to a 77 year old lady on my commute in row 29 asking me "what routes do you fly" and "were you in the military? My son/grandson/neighbor/cousin was in the Air Force..." for six hours.

It is what it is. Can always change once past TSA though, if you really wanna get comfy. Problem is if your flight fills up and you need to ride in the cockpit jumpseat instead of the back, you'll just be getting that now wrinkled uniform back out so you can look the part for your commute up front.

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Misophonic4000@reddit

That's pretty much what Kelsey often does

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ItisALLcalliesfault@reddit

No different than army guys in fatigues or nurses in scrubs because of attention. 😂

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Cucker_-_Tarlson@reddit

Right on, just curious. I'm not a pilot but I enjoyed Kelsey's channel when I was really getting into aviation but yea, something bout him the last while has kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

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Drainsbrains@reddit

It’s like a firefighter wearing his gear/uniform off duty. It’s just kinda duechey and attention seeking

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KookyWait@reddit

I'm not a pilot but I've flown as a passenger. I think pilot uniforms are likely far more comfortable than a firefighter's gear, so it doesn't strike me as unusual. And I appreciate that there are extra people on the flight who are trained to fly (just in case of an Airplane/Zero Hour! situation) so I would be happy to see an off duty pilot in the airport or on my plane.

Maybe it annoys other pilots/crew or maybe I'm just a weirdo who shouldn't try to works for all passengers, but if you're worried about the perception of the public at large I say don't worry about it and enjoy the recognition you do get for wearing the uniform (unless you aren't a real pilot/this is a Catch Me If You Can situation)

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Alert-Journalist-808@reddit

They think they are special. Truth is most firefighters are special needs.

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Drainsbrains@reddit

It’s hit or miss. The annoying ones usually tend to be volunteers, or from small town departments with no real training or calls. In California you rarely get weirdos to that extent, you’ll get hazed for a while doing that if someone sees you. Plus what freak wears the shit he wears to hospitals 🤮

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HotRecommendation283@reddit

Maybe he’s never been on that side of the curtain

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HandiCAPEable@reddit

Wait, is this sarcasm? I self identified and it was the biggest mistake of my life.

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

In respect to what Kelsey said in his video, nope. Not sarcasm. He put out what I consider a deranged take on the issue that’s totally detached from reality and I’ve no idea why.

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HandiCAPEable@reddit

Wow, yeah I just checked it out. This video is sponsored by the FAA 😂

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stinky-banana@reddit

I also think it’s kinda silly to say it’s a zero stress job and if you are stressed you shouldn’t be flying…like having a few hundred lives in your hand is stressful imo.

Sure, flying is the safest mode of transportation, but idk being in a “bus” 30k ft in the air would stress me out if I had 300 ppl on board and if for whatever reason something went wrong the survival chance is close to 0. Also to say being stress = you’re inferring it’s not safe is so out of touch

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jedensuscg@reddit

We literally teach how some stress is good in Coast Guard aviation, and there is a difference between stress and Distress. Stress is a healthy human response to situations needing increased awareness and action. Only when it's unmanaged or becomes distracting is it dangerous. Most businesses are very good at not knowing how to provide tools for people to manage stress. They all have the same response "deal with it", while continuing to pile on more crap because "the budget is tight" or "We don't have the manpower because people realize the work-life balance here sucks"

And thats just in the plane. You don't have to be in bad weather or an a EP in flight to experience stress. LIFE is stressful sometimes, and having a family and a job that might require you to spend days away from them, or worry about getting to your kids graduation, or any number of things. Anyone without stress is either lying to themselves and everyone else (which very dangerous) or doesn't have a heartbeat.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

Even a minor issue, like one of your redundant hydraulic systems faulting, shpuld induce stress on anyone involved

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stinky-banana@reddit

I also think stress, or lack there of, comes with experience. For example, something like an engine having an IFSD, and not working, won’t make it where you can’t fly/land but imo would make me stressed tf out knowing I only now have one engine to run on! However, they can happen and if you have a few experiences with it as a pilot I imagine you could become (in a weird way) used to it.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

They train enough in the sim to make it seem routine, which is great for reducing the stress of it. But I work on the ground and it stresses me out having my airplanes experience mechanical problems lol

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Washout22@reddit

zing...

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bradskis@reddit

That dude is such a tool.. Him and his stupid shocked face thumbnails and kindergarten slob wrinkled shirts.. he's the type that would wear his uniform and hat out in public on a layover.

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Tchaik748@reddit

I quit watching him a looooong time ago.

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trihydroboron@reddit

I stopped watching when I saw his AMA. Dude was being a total ass lol

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Atlanta_Mane@reddit

Quite a few of his videos are condescending. Condescension is unfortunately common in pilot culture.

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craftyhall2@reddit

I don’t watch any vids that have a stupid shocked-face in the thumbnail

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Opposite-Matter-1236@reddit

yeah, this

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Jazzlike_Recover_778@reddit

What video?

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

Ah sorry. I should have gone and looked for the link. He was torn apart in the comments rather soundly.

https://youtu.be/qy9k_idFXJo?si=ZO9PLMpYeBJSXxRl

[-]

ThorSkaaagi@reddit

Wow I always liked 74 Gear but that was an all-time braindead take on his end. Holy shit

[-]

samosamancer@reddit

He was the first aviation YouTuber I followed, but I had to stop after his consistently sexist thumbnail images (picking seriously exaggerated images of women for stories that don’t call for them, etc.), as well as some other things.

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CptClownfish1@reddit

Talk about “missing the point”…

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

Yeah that one kinda took me by surprise. Never been one of my favourite aviation YouTubers but I always thought he made some solid content. This one was just way out there though. No idea what the logic was.

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imlooking4agirl@reddit

Kelsey*

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Canadian_Psycho@reddit

Corrected. Thank you.

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Leverkaas2516@reddit

That's one of the best videos I've ever seen, on any subject. Absolutely superb work.

https://youtu.be/988j2-4CdgM

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_numbah_6@reddit

Which episode is that?

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77_Gear@reddit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=988j2-4CdgM&pp=ygUuTWVudG91ciBwaWxvdCBhbGFza2EgYWlybGluZXMgcGlsb3QgZGVwcmVzc2lvbg%3D%3D

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todo_code@reddit

Wow. A much better episode than that Kelsey 74 vid. I used to like both. But boy was the other one tone deaf

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NeverN00dles@reddit

It is a shame that there is such a huge disconnect between FAA regulations and the reality of pilots’ mental health. Also, this dude should not have taken shrooms. It sucks that you can’t do seemingly harmless drugs as a pilot. This story also proves that they are not always harmless.

I don’t necessarily believe he was taking shrooms as medication for his mental illness. Kinda sounds like he was just partying with friends. I want the person flying me around at 30,000 feet to be someone who says, “Dang, sounds fun but I gotta pass,” when offered shrooms, weed, etc…

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SomethingEdgyOrFunny@reddit

Weed? Really? Should they pass on having a drink on occasion too?

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GuppyDriver737@reddit

Ummm yes? Happens all the time

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BothBoysenberry6673@reddit

If they will be flying, absolutely!

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BAN_MOTORCYCLES@reddit

his description of what he experienced is such a weird and extreme reaction to psilocybin

ive participated in various psychedelic integration groups and activities for decades and have consumed mushrooms an uncountable number of times and really cant relate to what hes talking about with everything around him not seeming real especially long after coming down

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fluffybull69@reddit

google is deleting anything about joseph

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hoponpot@reddit

I call BS on the shrooms lasting multiple days. I bet he took more right before the flight, probably mixed with alcohol, and had a bad trip.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Drug induced psychosis is a well known phenomenon. The fun part is that it can extend well beyond the point of intoxication. More fun fact, this can happen with low doses of alcohol as well.

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I-choochoochoose-you@reddit

True, I’ve seen it myself. But in my experience folks experiencing drug induced psychosis couldn’t get onto a plane.

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HealthyOrange2574@reddit

He may have taken more right before the flight. or he may well have taken them several days before as he claims. The thing about psychedelics is the effects cannot be measured. They aren't the same for everyone, or ever every time someone uses them. There are so many variables that could completely change how these drugs (yes, drugs) will affect someone. I am so over people sticking up for "shrooms" as if they are completely harmless. They can literally cause a person to lose their minds with just one use. As a pilot, he should have considered the level of risk before ever partaking in this activity. IMO he deserves the fullest sentencing.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

There isn't a drug out there (legal or not) that can't have an unexpected effect on some people. Biology is complicated.

We have two choices here: throw him in the slammer and just move on; or try to improve our regulations to reduce the chance of this outcome. Either way, he will do his time and has accepted responsibility. But our system is broken and I guarantee you there are a lot of other troubled commercial airline pilots that are undiagnosed, because of how the system works today. We really need to deal with that.

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HealthyOrange2574@reddit

I see your point, but IMO, there are certain occupations that require a person to abstain from extremely risky behavior, even during down time. Airline pilot is one of those occupations and indulging in hallucinogens is an extremely risky choice he made. While I agree that regulations should be greatly improved for pilot's mental health, I don't believe his choice to partake in something so utterly irresponsible should go unpunished.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

I don't either. And he's accepted responsibility. But the bigger point here is that he, and a lot of other pilots, are boxed into a really tough corner that doesn't allow a clear pathway for mental health issues to be dealt with openly without their entire career going down the tubes. This "rock and a hard place" situation leads to desperate actions to self-medicate that can result in this kind of outcome.

He needs to accept responsibility, and this is also a call to fix the system.

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ifukdaliens@reddit

It can happen, albeit uncommon. The thing that gets me is, never have I seen someone (or been myself) on mushrooms and not been completely aware that they were/I was on mushrooms. If it was prolonged for days, any sound person would have not gone to work/gone to the doctor to make sure everything is alright.

Granted, my evidence is anectodal, but I have done and been around people who have done mushrooms regularly for upwards of 30 years.

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Sharkey311@reddit

MM does not last for days and his reason to take them was to help him sleep and was upset it didn’t work. The dude is throwing mushrooms under the bus and perpetuating the misinformation and misconceptions about them.

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HealthyOrange2574@reddit

The thing is it's just not the same for every person, every time. Sure, loads of people may experience the same results with each use. But there's always the chance that something could go very, very wrong. This is why psychedelics should be heavily regulated. This is also why this pilot should have declined taking this class of drug. Psychedelics and flight careers should never go together. Find another career or wait until you retire.

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ifukdaliens@reddit

100% agreed.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

I don't think it was the mushrooms only. I tried them once in my life and it fully wore off within 4 hours. It was some kind of psychotic episode linked to the prior use of mushrooms plus no sleep plus severe depression and possibly other undiagnosed issues on top of that.

He shoulders great responsibility being a pilot and sitting in the jumpseat, and he has accepted that. But I don't think a reasonable person could have seen anything like this coming. His decision to use mushrooms in the first place came from desperation, inability to seek professional help because of how his profession is regulated, and the recommendation from one of his friends to try it.

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Cowjoe@reddit

I've dealt with mental illness all my life but I have never endangered anyone but myself... id never even on the thrall of a massive episode would do anything that could potentially harm anyone else not matter what weird logic they throw at me or what my emotions say at the time and I've had some bad hallucinations but I learned a lot of reality testing techniques and plus I always remember what I learned as a kid that my actions have consequences regardless of what someone's feeling at the time and im not the center of the universe....

voices that tell me.all kinds of shit but I'd personally never try to escape if it put other lives at risk even when I really believe it. Sometimes my emotions get messed up to and I have very strong feeling that I'm sure some if they had them would think they are god given or some kind of power but when I'm having an episode and I'm not sure what's real or not I try very hard not to do anything that might affect another person..

even if I suspect it will work and they aren't even really people, and I can escape this fake world because what if I'm wrong? If I'm gonna escape it I'll do it in a way that won't hurt the (npcs) like jump out my window or something... I'm certainly not gonna crash a bus or plane.... I know I have schizophrenia after all.. Heck it's why I don't play evil paths on a video game too.. No one has the right to endanger others because they are scared of their hallucinations...A lot of it to me boils done to not being a coward and accepting you have an issue with perception and reality ...when I see some of what other schizos do or drug induced ones I can understand the fear that may have put them there but not the actions still...

.Like if big bird manifesting in my house saying I have to kill someone to save the world, you know what I'm gonna tdo? I'll tell big bird to fuck off cause if he's that powerful to talk to me and teleport he doesn't need me to do anything and I dont want to harm anyone even accidently and if I'll be smite by him for disobey then so be it.. and if God himself told me... Hell I guess you can send me to hell cause I'm not gonna be like that Dbag who almost killed his kid because God decided he wanted to be a prick and test him.. God your an evil dick in that case and I'm not following you . Basically if I get a scary episode I just take my fate.. I honestly like to believe a lot of scitzos are closer me than the guy who burned his kids in a crucible and I do not and cannot see mental health as an excuse for causing danger to others.. I the moment you cone close its time to accept you need to be removed from society. If I was this pilot I would a asked to be handcuffed before I even contemplated pulling the engine shut off..

Few are going to understand my perspective except maybe a few but it is what it is.. I will never find mental health as an excuse for dangerous actions to others just like I won't accept when a cop or someone hurts and innocent person without any proof of a threat.

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p3nt4gon@reddit

mental illnesses work differently for different people, ofc it doesnt justify such acts and its still fucked up at the end but i really dont like seeing this ''íve been depressed but i never wanted to harm anyone''

[-]

Cowjoe@reddit

I don't think its the case with everyone and I've seen a good share of mentally ill folk along with myself but I think some folks really are just evil or selfish or cowardly and some combination of all these are and these are rasons the so called sane and competent folk hurt each other so adding a mental illness to the equation dosnt make a murderer less culpable if those were the reasons usually imi...

Well I dont like people using their mental illness as a reason to harm people and a lot of folks saying " oh it's not their fault" even when it shouldn't apply.., it's never gonna be okay with me and almost never give anyone a pass.. sane ppl kill eachother all the time too and they must be held to their actions.. What I'm saying is I believe some of the mental folk who kill are just as liable as the same who kill cause they either are doing it for similar reasons or in cases where they believe things incorrectly that aren't true it still doesn't matter if the reasoning were true if it's not a good reason to kill anyone... So if you have hallucinations and they tell you that if you kill person A so person B will marry you, even if that was true and not a hallucination it would t be a good reason to harm someone.

Now if the mental illness is like litterly you are not in control of your actions or your some philosophical zombi that didn't even know they exist, kinda thing where you have very low IQ and stuff to the point you're more animalistic than human maybe... Not knowing f right and wrong well then depends on exact circumstances but if you know right and wrong but ignore it in favor or your own desires or selfishness it doesn't matter what your mental illness is you still selfish either way ... but when I got the voices it's not like they could suddenly turn me into a coward that would hurt someone out of self preservation kinda thing even if I really believe what they are saying or if some entity wants me to save the world by killing x y and z person I'd tell that duck to do it themselves so I think a lot of it also comes down to who you are with or without mental issues, after all there are plenty of sane people who hurt each other for less too..

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Budget-Emergency-626@reddit

I would be happy to fly with Joe Emerson. A temporary break from reality should not ground a pilot for life.

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merrilll92106@reddit

Who cares about this goof he's a total noob! He's not unique OMG he's a sniveling weak loser boohooing away on some lame-o documentary to everyone who'll listen and the scariest part is people listen to this goof! You don't get to be stupid in the cockpit of a commercial airline then say woo-woo-woo-woo I got high and I'm emotionally unstable because a male friend croaked it just doesn't work like that Joe! 😡

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2beatenup@reddit

Wait… they have handcuffs? Did not know…

“At that point, Emerson said he asked the flight attendant to handcuff him, and she immediately did so.”

Note to self: I ma keep my mouth shut on the plane…. Hindsight: Flight attendants with handscuffs… Ooooo nice.

………. ☁️…… ☁️ Darn these shrooms. Gotta stay away from these

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wilhalen@reddit

they have those plastic zip tie things, not actual handcuffs

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LotsOfGunsSmallPenis@reddit

I don’t understand why people want to take others with them if they want to end it. I’m all for people having the choice to end it if they feel like that’s what they need to do, BUT DON’T HURT OTHER PEOPLE.

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wilhalen@reddit

first of all, you're saying that as a completely rational human being. i agree--i don't understand why people want to take others out with them. however, he was literally out of his mind and incapable of thinking rationally. which brings me to:

second, he thought none of it was real. therefore, no one else on that plane, was real. it was just him, trapped on that plane, and he had to wake up. he thought, dying in a dream wakes you up, so if he crashes the plane, he'll wake up. he also wanted to try and go out the emergency exit.

it's a sucky, shitty situation. i don't think he should ever fly again, and i do think he should face some sort of consequence (outside of losing his livelihood), but a lot of people just do not realize that taking shrooms can have horrible effects if you're suffering from any sort of mental illness--whether you know you have one, or not. i don't use drugs, but i had considered possibly trying psilocybin treatments, but nope. didn't even take me ten minutes of googling medical articles to realize what a bad idea that would be for me (my psychiatrist agrees). what happened to him is exactly what i'm afraid of. i've been close to a mental break before and that was terrifying enough as it was.

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not_so_subtle_now@reddit

I understand that mental health isn't taken seriously by the FAA, but to all you excusing this dude's story and actions...

What the fuck. Fuck this guy. He did psychedelic drugs, was still high flying the plane, tried to down it because he couldn't distinguish reality from fantasy, and people are gonna make excuses for him?

What an absolute brainless stance to take.

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couchsurferpro@reddit

Was not flying the plane. Was in the plane.

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not_so_subtle_now@reddit

Ah ok nullifies everything I wrote

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mrsdpc@reddit

I hope you’re being sarcastic. He was jumpseating (a small extra seat which in an airliner is in the cockpit). The FAA will immediately take your license for the use of illegal substances. Looks like they did their job.

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Accomplished_Big7797@reddit

We have two separate issues here. One is mental healthcare for pilots. The other is drug abuse and flying under the influence. He took a hallucinogen and had a bad reaction. He got into the cockpit and nearly killed everyone on board. It annoys me that he wants to fly again. He can't be trusted to fly. One psychotic break is one too many to qualify for flying. One incidence of using drugs is enough to ban him for life. One in air episode of nearly taking down a plane is too many. This guy thinks HE is the victim, but he isn't. He's the criminal. What a nanby panby world. This coward is blaming the FAA for his idiotic choice to microdose in a yurt. I am sorry he's mentally unstable, but he needs to go to jail. This story could have ended horrifically. He is not a hero.

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mrsdpc@reddit

Agreed!

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Ilikehashbrowns89@reddit

Yeah idk how anyone can defend this

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WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot@reddit

This is not a legitimate plea of innocence. This is something his lawyer advised him to do so he can express remorse and receive the most favorable legal outcome.

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sheplayshockey@reddit

Which is why it aired on a random channel like FX, (nothing against FX). No major network would touch that with a 10-foot pole.

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Relevant-Value-4909@reddit

Apparently not everyone knows it’s bullshit, which is quite baffling honestly. All these compassionate people would be silent if that plane had crashed. Absolutely ridiculous that some are even entertaining this as an excuse. Explanations aren’t excuses.

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in-den-wolken@reddit

I'm glad to see this thread, but it appears to be the minority view.

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3rd-party-intervener@reddit

If his lawyer advised him to do it then he should fire that lawyer. They should’ve played his state of mind card at trial but now he can’t since he gave that away in this interview.

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WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot@reddit

This was likely a play to avoid having to go to trial. I'm not sure if you read the article but it's still undecided whether prosecutors will offer a plea deal or take it to trial. This whole act increases the likelihood of the former.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

Take 5 seconds to scroll through here, the mental gymnastics is so disappointing. Anytime people start saying empathy as an excuse for this, that's a good sign you're gonna lose some iq points by reading further

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Bravodelta13@reddit

It’s pretty easy if you know anything about the medical aspects of this case. Not nearly as black & white as it seems. For the record, permanently revoke his certs.

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SubZeroEffort@reddit

" I took drugs and then went crazy in an airplane, attempting to murder everyone. I am the victim ."

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mrsdpc@reddit

I haven’t read all of the comments about this situation and it’s subsequent media blitz but I just saw the special about it. Someone may have touched on these points already.

I worked in the aviation / aerospace industries for decades. Secondly, my husband is a commercial pilot with 13,000+ flight hours worldwide. I understand what is required of pilots.

To be a pilot you MUST exude excellence critical thinking skills. So much so, that lives are literally in your hands every single time you go to work and throughout your entire work day. With that being said, my question is, regardless of anyone’s mental state at the time (stress, anxiety, depression, grief), was this specific pilot displaying any form of thinking (critical or otherwise) when he opted to use an illegal substance? Being a commercial pilot, had he been tested, he knows that would have been an immediate revocation of his license? No, he was not.

Secondly, why, when he sent a text to his wife (and I’m paraphrasing) that he had screwed up while jumpseating on that flight, was her first thought to go to FlightAware? My thought would be “Why, what did you do? Who did you piss off? What did you eat?” or any other comparable questions. Going to FlightAware would not have even been a consideration because I know my husband is a professional aviator. Anyway back to this, it was then when she saw the flight diverting elsewhere that she asked him if the aircraft was diverting because of him. What behavior had he been displaying that would make his wife think that any issue was due to her husband? That should have been a huge red flag that maybe he needed to take some time off to figure out what was going on. Being an airline pilot, he should have had short and long term disability to financially help his family.

Now about mental health in certain professions. If you were about to have surgery, would you be alright knowing that your surgeon was actively suffering from anxiety, depression or any other myriad of mental health issues or would you prefer he was 100% unimpaired? Would you want your pilot to suffering from any other debilitating conditions? Sleep apnea, heart conditions, diabetes, seizures? All of them could result in the pilot being incapacitated while in flight so how is that different from the possibility of being in a mental state where they could become impaired as well?

I believe there are certain professionals where the standards need to be exemplary and unwavering. Just to be a student pilot, you are required to have an AME sign off on your health. Anyone starting off in this profession would know what is expected of them in regard to their health. There should be no surprise what the outcome would be if life happens and you end up with a medical condition that either keeps you from the skies altogether or in a position where you have to obtain medical proof that you should be able to be there. There is just no room for error in the skies.

I don’t understand how Mr Emerson thinks there is any possibility that he’ll get his pilot license back. First and foremost, not even considering the mental health aspect, he displayed terrible judgement when he used an illegal substance. Period. Also, in an interview somewhere he said he accepts responsibility for his actions however pleading not guilty to his actions is not accepting responsibility.

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doneaux@reddit

That the dude wants to fly again if he's allowed is mind boggling. Have some honor and hang up the hat, what he did was unforgivable.

He knew (allegedly) he was under the influence of psychedelics and still got on a plane. And of all places the cockpit. Fuck off.

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MiloXC217@reddit

Right?! People seem to be overlooking the fact he could’ve killed many people, but everyone’s all over his nuts about mental health. My best friend committed suicide, I’ve lost my father, etc. - No excuses for that this guy did. He should serve jail time

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doneaux@reddit

Agreed. People seem to assume others have no knowledge about mental health issues just because we're not excusing the behaviour.

Sorry to hear about your circumstances.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

A little empathy and context would go a long way here.

He was dealing with major depression and sleep issues. He took mushrooms the night before, not that morning. Normally it would not be affecting you the next day. It wears off. He was not scheduled to fly that day either. He got in the jumpseat only because that's often the only seat available for off-duty pilots to be shuttled back and forth. I'm sure he didn't expect to lose his mind that day.

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Boeinggoing737@reddit

The jump seat isn’t just another seat. They are additional crew members. A crew member showing up under the influence shows a horrible lack of decision making, judgement, and character. You’re talking about billions in liability and 1000’s of people’s lives being affected because he couldn’t say no to mushrooms. It isn’t forgivable and him “mentoring” others is ridiculous.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

Sitting in a jump seat does not automatically make you a crew member. He was not on duty that day.

He only took the mushrooms because he was desperate to find some way to medicate and feel better without exposing his struggles to the doctors who would have to report this to the FAA (psychedelics have successfully been used to address depression and PTSD). Go to r/flying and read the stories of people that have or want a flying career who have run into massive unnecessary barriers with the FAA. I've read about people who can't get a private pilot's license (or have to hire a lawyer to get one) because a decade ago they sought treatment for depression. It's crazy.

Part of the reason he so badly wanted to resolve these issues is because he wasn't sleeping well and it was already affecting his work, which is a safety concern.

He is not asking for absolution. He took responsibility for his actions. He is also not "mentoring" others. He is asking the FAA's system to be revised so that pilots can openly seek treatment for issues they already have without fear of repercussions, so that we can all fly more safely.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

If he was in such bad shape, he shouldn't have put himself in a position where others safety could be compromised as a result. That is the crux of the matter. Very poor decision making, regardless of why, endangered a planeful of people.

I believe pilots should have access to mental health without losing their ability to fly. However, an incident like this is just too much. He needs to stay grounded.

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Boeinggoing737@reddit

Jump seaters ARE crew members. That isn’t wishy washy or up for debate. It was his decision to take mushrooms and then occupy a crew seat. He used the mentoring term in the press release and on his organization’s website. This person isn’t fit to fly, mentor, or make decisions.

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Background-Pizza-448@reddit

Sitting in a jump seat does not automatically make you a crew member.

Yes it literally does. Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

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doneaux@reddit

Yeah, I have empathy with the passengers firstly. The guy to some degree sure, but that doesn't mean he's absolved.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

No he's not. And he didn't ask to be absolved. It's just a messy situation involving human beings that are imperfect.

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jedensuscg@reddit

Dude stop talking logic. Don't you know all these "pilots" here are perfect human beings with impeccable integrity, zero life stressors and have never made a mistake?

JK, most of the people here showing zero compassion should NEVER fly commercial, because robots shouldn't be in charge of an airplane.

The dude screwed up, he should answer for that and face the consequences. No one is saying he shouldn't, HE isn't saying he shouldn't. But people here seem to ignore that we don't live in a vacuum. There are REASONS things happen, but everyone seem to just want to crucify the guy and then pat their backs thinking they solved the problem, time to go home.

These people have also never been through a risk management course or understand the cultural change in aviation safety that has happened. These people are the ones we are warned about. There solution to aviation safety is find someone to blame, throw the book at them and go home, without understanding any of the issues that lead to the incident so that safeguard can be put in place.

Luckily, they are just reddit trolls and not actually in charge of anything.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

I don't believe he deserves to go to prison, but I also certainly don't think he should be allowed to fly commercial aircraft with passengers again. We're not talking about someone seeing a medical professional to deal with mental/emotional conditions before they affect his performance. We're talking about someone who DID put the safety of everyone on board the plane in jeopardy because he couldn't distinguish between what is real and what is not. Whatever the cause, I would not want him flying a plane I'm flying in. I sincerely hope he gets the help he needs. Perhaps he could even someday fly aircraft transporting goods, but certainly NOT passengers.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

100% well put. Many of the people here are not seeing the forest through the trees. Which is that what happened to this guy, and the choices he made, are indicative of a way larger problem in the aviation industry that's still there lurking. We should be up in arms about that, not whether this guy is "making excuses", because it's the larger issue that puts us at risk the next time.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

Well my empathy is with the other passengers & crew. This guy doesn't deserve to be drawn & quartered, but he also should NEVER be allowed to fly commercially again. I certainly wouldn't want him as my pilot. This isn't baseball where you get 3 strikes. He has lives in his hands, so one such action is enough to permanently disqualify him.

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God_Damnit_Nappa@reddit

He took the mushrooms 3 days before he flew according to his own admission. He should've realized he was still suffering the effects of the mushrooms and stayed out of the crockpot. Instead he chose to fly that day and tried to kill everyone on board. I have zero sympathy for this guy.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

I'm not going to further argue with a bunch of people that in their minds already tried, convicted him and sentenced him to decades in prison, except to say that mushrooms are not supposed to still affect you 3 days after you take them, or even the next morning.

Anyway, I've had enough downvotes for today so I'm out.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

A little empathy? Yeah I'm sure you'd be saying the same thing if he fucking killed 83 people.

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Headoutdaplane@reddit

So let's look at it from the other side. What if he succeeded? A plane load of folks are dead. I do not have empathy for someone that self medicated, should never have been on the flight deck, and yet.....made those conscious decisions.

If he succeeded he would have set back the fight for more honest discussions about mental health and pilots. Just like Germanwings.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

Exactly

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redcurrantevents@reddit

A wise man once said: your mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. I know it is often more complicated than that, but he had some self awareness on that day and should not have entered the flight deck.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

Yep

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RedEyeView@reddit

Is that wise man Marcus "I'm two missed doses away from thinking people on the subway can hear my thoughts" Parks?

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NECoyote@reddit

Hail you!

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RedEyeView@reddit

Hail Gein!

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redcurrantevents@reddit

Megustalations

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redcurrantevents@reddit

I was wondering if someone would notice.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

Should have taken a cabin seat if he wasn't feeling well. Infinite levels of irresponsibility. I hope he never flies again

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DentateGyros@reddit

Yeah, if he had a breakdown in the cabin, it would’ve barely made the news considering crazy passengers are a dime a dozen nowadays. The reason this appropriately grabbed headlines was because he used his position of privilege as a pilot to sit in the cockpit jump seat, and he abused that privilege.

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YukonBurger@reddit

Not defending him, but the reason there are rules forbidding these things from mixing with safety critical roles is first and foremost because they have a profoundly negative effect on sound judgment

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SomeRedPanda@reddit

Oh yes. He should have just logiced his way out of mental illness. /s

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doneaux@reddit

He literally says it's the drugs: "Emerson said that for him, the physical side effects lasted days, and the consequences a lifetime."

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0100001101110111@reddit

Did you read the article?

He was diagnosed with a disorder that makes the affect of hallucinogens last much longer than normal.

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Special_K82314@reddit

How about... If you're a pilot, don't take hallucinogenic at all regardless of disorder? You're responsible for the lives of alot of people and the rules are quite clear

I'm all for responsibly treating mental health... Remove yourself from flight ops until you are better

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SomeRedPanda@reddit

You’re willfully ignoring the context. He had been struggling with long term depression, hence the drugs.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

I was about to also post this story. I hate how he feels he can brush it off like "lol oopsie"

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I_like_cake_7@reddit

Right? People have lost their entire careers over far less than what he did. Fuck this guy.

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MeasurementPlenty148@reddit

I have a sickening feeling as to why this guy is able to get this nice little sit-down interview. He just sat there just saying basically I had a bad day, oh just let me keep my job and ignore that I could have killed everyone. It makes me sick. He should be in jail.

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MiloXC217@reddit

That’s what I’m saying! What the hell?! I’ve never seen anyone be nice to a guy that could’ve killed nearly 90 people

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

For real, any of us walk into our jobs high as a kite and we don't have a job anymore. This dude gets to cry like a little bitch and pretend like he's sorry, and we all just go "okay sure you can absolutely be trusted behind the joysticks in a plane full of passengers." He should be considered a possible domestic terrorist and watched heavily before anything is even remotely considered, and sure as shit shouldn't be allowed to pilot again. Maybe he can clean the toilets

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Sagail@reddit

Not even GA for this fucker

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TacohTuesday@reddit

Where in this interview did he brush it off? Maybe we watched two different interviews.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

I didnt watch the video, just read the article, which may change my perception, but just the text about how this episode changed his life for the better and how he seems to play the victim when he put himself in that situation.

A pilot shouldn't be doing any form of drugs, even in their off time and he chose to sit in that seat, where it is understood that he is now part of the crew and is counted on to respond or assist when something happens in flight. Instead of "testing reality" he should have asked to leave the cockpit but he was too impaired to do so.

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TacohTuesday@reddit

I watched the video. He did say he took responsibilities for his actions. He is facing serious charges and will certainly have to accept significant penalties and possible jail time.

His goal with the non-profit is to bring about change in how medical and mental health issues in pilots are managed by the FAA (not to clear his name). As it is today (and has been for a long time), the rules are draconian to the point that, if you want to be a pilot but ten years ago saw a doctor about serious depression, you will get flagged and have to go through major hoops to get a pilot's license (and you may still not succeed).

So pilots hide their medical/mental problems. It's not just him. They all do. They are scared shitless of losing their career if they show their weaknesses. It's a problem, and while we are all aghast with the behaviors of this guy, think about how many more ticking time bombs there are out there. Pilots in denial until their mental health gets the better of them.

So we can both hold him responsible and also empathize with his situation and support the change he's trying to bring about.

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ShotEcho5294@reddit

That was well said. I hope some good comes from this. I don't believe a long jail sentence is necessarily in order, but he certainly should NEVER fly again.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

I appreciate him taking responsibility and I think the nonprofit is good for the aviation industry. I agree the faa medical requirements are excessive. Exemptions are difficult and take a lot of time to get and prove, but are possible. I also agree that untreated mental problems are a danger to safety and should be addressed without ruining careers

It is unfortunate he lost someone close to him but I cannot sympathize because I know pilot unions are very strong in protecting their members and they have resources to help members without involving or even notifying the airline. Resources were available to help him with his loss that would not jeopardize his job. I do agree with everything else you said

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tallpilot@reddit

Sounded he’s sorry he got caught. And blames his buddy’s deaths for his mental health. Not a lot of taking responsibility. Mental illness suck though.

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RandomflyerOTR@reddit

Why isn't his ass in jail yet? Fucking idiot...

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in-den-wolken@reddit

His explanation is about as true as Shelby Houlihan being doped by her pork burrito.

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Mean-Independent9763@reddit

He's crazy the FAA should suspend his license for life.

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Czarchitect@reddit

Prison comes next right? Right?

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Ah yes, imprison people for having mental health crises rather than reforming the system so they can seek help.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

If I knowingly go to my job high as fuck on drugs, knowing that's against company policy, I'd lose my fucking as soon as I waked in. You're a fucking clown trying to defend this pos

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pattern_altitude@reddit

A) He was jumpseating, not actually flying the airplane.

B) Yeah, nobody should be on drugs in the cockpit. That’s the WHOLE POINT of systemic reform. Enabling people to deal with their issues in a safe, healthy, effective way is undeniably better than keeping things the way they are and having a bunch of pilots trying to deal with their issues in dubious ways to stay in the air.

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Relevant-Value-4909@reddit

He was “only” jumpseating yet managed to almost kill everyone on board. Systemic reform sounds great, but what he did is inexcusable. Maybe advocate behind bars.

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siddizie420@reddit

Dude is a commercial pilot who used schedule 1 drugs, one of the strictest of FAA rules and basically was lucky he didn’t kill 80 people including himself. It’s a lot more than a random person having a mental health crisis. If he felt something was wrong like he says he does he should have excused himself from the cockpit long before he did.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Nobody was going to die.

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bdubwilliams22@reddit

Reaching those two little red handles would’ve ensured those engines never lit up again. And although they were at cruising altitude, it’s not a forgone conclusion that they would’ve glided to a nearby field. Saying “nobody was going to die” is as dumb as saying “1+1 isn’t 2”.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Uh… rotating the handles would’ve been irreversible, not pulling them. If you’re going to make an argument, don’t pull it out of your flight sim ass.

Why wouldn’t they have been able to reach a suitable landing site? Really curious to hear your take on this one…

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Chaxterium@reddit

Even rotating them isn't irreversible. Rotating them just blows the fire extinguishing agent. It doesn't render the engines inoperable.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Gotcha. Would’ve assumed the bottles would be problematic but I suppose that depends on what’s in them.

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bdubwilliams22@reddit

What the fuck are talking about? Those red handles are for engine fire emergencies and essentially render them useless after you pull them. What the fuck does flight sim have to do with this? Go touch grass or something.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

You have to rotate the handle to blow the fire bottle to prevent accidental activation…

It doesn’t just turn the engine into a bunch of useless metal the second you pull the handles.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Pulling a fire handle in an FAR 25 certified airplane is 100% reversible. In flight restarts are a normal procedure.

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Dasgerman1984@reddit

No. Rotating those two handles would have done that

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Blacksheep81@reddit

Yeah hot negative on that one. If deliberately going into a dual engine failure was a "eh, no biggie, nobody's going to die" scenario then why not just do that every time? Save fuel and just glide to landing every time! Nobody's going to die, right?

Are you seriously advocating that defense over just kicking the person on prohibited drugs out of the cockpit?

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pattern_altitude@reddit

I’m not saying it’s no big deal — of course it’s a very big deal — but the truth is that the airplane would have landed safely.

I’m not saying he should have been in the cockpit. I’m saying the system should have enabled and encouraged him to seek treatment in a safe manner rather than flying under the radar to keep flying.

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Blacksheep81@reddit

Well look, to an extant I get what you're saying, which I think is that we get stigmatized professionally for seeking mental help or even having mental or emotional or mood disorders. That is true, and it's a problem.

But two things I disagree on (from other locations in these comments) are, 1, that he was doing something that should EVER be considered acceptable, which is taking mushrooms let alone any unapproved drug and being able to access crew positions (I get that he was jumpseating), and 2, I also disagree that he's not a liability if his judgement cannot be trusted in a professional setting.

I don't think mushrooms were supposed to do anything to treat an emotional disorder, they're a recreational drug, and he acted with poor judgement in taking them as a professional, and then the swiss cheese model allowed him access to the controls.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

1, that he was doing something that should EVER be considered acceptable, which is taking mushrooms let alone any unapproved drug and being able to access crew positions

True. That absolutely is unacceptable.

2, I also disagree that he's not a liability if his judgement cannot be trusted in a professional setting.

He absolutely would be a liability if he can’t prove that he cleaned up his act. I wouldn’t argue otherwise.

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stephen1547@reddit

Listen kid, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Do you want to back that claim up with… anything?

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stephen1547@reddit

The claim that a dual-engine failure couldn’t cause fatalities?

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Couldn’t and wouldn’t are not the same.

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Guysmiley777@reddit

STFU

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

This subreddit is open for civil, friendly discussion about our common interest, aviation. Excessively rude, mean, unfriendly, or hostile conduct is not permitted.

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biggy-cheese03@reddit

He could’ve killed both engines

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Since when is that certain death?

I’m not saying that this is no big deal — obviously it is a VERY big deal — but the fact of the matter is that it was an airliner at cruise and they could have reached multiple suitable landing sites.

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ViceroyInhaler@reddit

You're a fucking moron to take this stance.

[-]

aviation-ModTeam@reddit

This subreddit is open for civil, friendly discussion about our common interest, aviation. Excessively rude, mean, unfriendly, or hostile conduct is not permitted.

Come on now. Easy with that.

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Pythias1@reddit

Yes there are many examples of aircraft nosediving into terrain where no one is hurt.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Since when does losing power mean “nosediving into terrain?”

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Marijuana is a schedule 1 drug. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that

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ghhfcbhhv@reddit

You shouldn't be high on a plane.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Kinda goes without saying. Homie was having a psychotic episode based a recent drug use. Shrooms had long since metabolised out of his system. He most assuredly wasn’t “high” at the time.

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AnnualWerewolf9804@reddit

You’re right. Not sure why you got so many downvotes.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Bc most people in this sub received their drug/alcohol education via a D.A.R.E assembly in 5th grade. Downvoting is easier than acknowledging there’s an uncomfortable level of nuance with this situation.

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AnnualWerewolf9804@reddit

Isn’t that the whole point?

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siddizie420@reddit

You can’t really be comparing psychedelic intoxication to marijuana . Even then what he took or the schedule of it is besides the point really. He took an intoxicant before a flight and wasn’t feeling good on the ground. He shouldn’t have even been in the cockpit and then he could’ve gotten help for his mental health issues and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. I’d have the same stance if you replace shrooms with marijuana or even alcohol/prescribed medication in this situation.

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God_Damnit_Nappa@reddit

imprison people for ~~having mental health crises~~ getting into a cockpit while still under the influence of mushrooms and then attempting to murder everybody on board by shutting down the engines

Fixed that for you. I have sympathy for people with mental health crises. This guy chose to do mushrooms, then went to work while still suffering long term effects from it. He should be rotting in prison.

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turtlewelder@reddit

Sorry but you're responsible for the lives of hundreds of other people. Being a pilot is one of those jobs you just don't have room for mental instability. The guy should only fly as a passenger from now on.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

It is demonstrably the case that people who are in treatment are perfectly safe pilots. The issue is that the system rarely allows for that treatment to be sought.

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WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot@reddit

Even if 99% of pilots in treatment can fly safely, why risk that tiny 1%?

We're not talking about forklift operation. These planes can take out skyscrapers. One person has the power to kill thousands, so unfortunately it's necessary to gatekeep as strictly as possible.

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pattern_altitude@reddit

Some people should not be in the cockpit, that’s true. But there are many people who either refuse to seek help for their issues or deal with them in an unsafe/unhealthy way in order to stay flying, and that’s something that systemic reform can and should address.

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researchanddev@reddit

Replace airplane with automobile, mushrooms with alcohol, and shutting down the engines with trying to run over pedestrians.

Hope he gets the help he needs…in jail.

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Professional_Low_646@reddit

I agree with what you’re saying, yet in this specific case, I fail to see the mental health crisis. Emerson says he was commemorating a dead buddy, together with others, and in the course of that had some shrooms. Now I get being sad or even depressed/traumatized by the death of a good friend, magic mushrooms (or other psychedelic drugs) is however NOT the way to deal with that. As anyone with actual experience with these things will readily tell you.

That’s a dumb af decision right there. I absolutely agree that mental health needs to be addressed differently in aviation (and society in general), but that’s not a blanket excuse for reckless behavior.

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Ancient_Boner_Forest@reddit

Not defending what this guy did but there is in fact a lot of science backing up the use of shrooms to treat depression

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LearningT0Fly@reddit

You can do both.

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tyler_3135@reddit

This is Reddit, that’s not possible. Pick a side bud /s

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OZZMAN8@reddit

I mean yeah reform the system but don't reform the system for guys like this. This was a dangerous individual casually doing drugs close enough to a time that he would be in an aircraft cockpit that the drugs could still effect him. Don't reform the system for people who struggle with the difference between what's real and what's not real. Reform the system for people who are a little less tense with a small amount of antidepressants. This guy needs significant jail time, a highlighted spot on the no fly list, and a court order that he can't get rich off his "non-profit".

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fd6270@reddit

Lots of people have mental health issues and manage to somehow avoid trying to kill an airliner full of people.

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CrazyButRightOn@reddit

Victim card being played hard here. “The evil magic mushrooms made me do it.” He should be charged with consecutive counts of attempted murder.

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BWanon97@reddit

Wait, no we not going to put mentally unstable pilots in the cockpit now right? Like fine if you get over your depression and can go back to work but not sepressed on drugs countering it. What should be done is FAA being more lean in getting back your licenses after you have been cleared and not on drugs anymore. And labor rules being more strict. As in you cannot fire someone for 2 years and have to rehire them if they recover and there us a seat available.

Creating job security without compromising on safrty.

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G-III-@reddit

You’re right, pilots self medicating with alcohol is sooo much better than people taking medicine prescribed by a doctor..

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

How about no pilots should be under the influence of anything before flying a plane, Jesus fucking christ you clowns have to turn everything into some hypothetical situation. Point out any fucking person who says drunk pilots are okay. Oh you can't. The fact anyone is defending this dude getting high on shrooms and deciding he was okay to pilot a plane is retarded as fuck and I hope none of you have kids and spread your idiot genes

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AnnualWerewolf9804@reddit

How about you read the story and get the facts before you open your dumbass mouth? He wasn’t flying the plane. He was off duty and he wasn’t high at the time. Nobody defending him getting high and deciding to pilot a plane because that’s not at all what happened. The fact that you’re so riled up and strongly opinionated on something that you know nothing about is retarded as fuck and I hope you don’t have kids and spread your idiot genes (your words). You fucking idiot (my words).

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

This subreddit is open for civil, friendly discussion about our common interest, aviation. Excessively rude, mean, unfriendly, or hostile conduct is not permitted.

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BWanon97@reddit

Nope. They should go to a doctor. And should not have to fear their license being permantently revoked or losing their job (law should protect them and a sector fund for this through their employer should be their source of pay in the meantime).

However, they in my opinion should not fly till sorted out.

This pilot should have been able to be open about his problems and given the chance to get better without being fired or without income.

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elad34@reddit

You don’t seem to fundamentally understand depression and are making false equivalencies. By your logic pilots with poor eyesight would be grounded while wearing corrective lenses until their eyes heal and can see normal again on their own.

Does that help explain why you sound like a moron?

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BWanon97@reddit

There are always nuances I agree. But does flying not hinder healing in this case? The long hours of focus combined with often shifting or not ideal work hours.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

Ah yes, because for my poor eyesight I smoke a gram of crack everyday to help. Can you prove that it does or doesn't?

That's you trying to defend this fucking clown who almost murdered 83 people because he made the wrong decision to do powerful psychedelics and then use them as an excuse. THERES LITERALLY FUCKING WARNINGS ON ALMOST EVERY MEDICINE TO NOT OPERATE HEAVT MACHINERY BUT THIS GUY IS OKAY TO FLY A PLANE. Why don't you take a second and think about how retarded you are.

He wasn't prescribed that shit. He knowingly took an illegal drug and wants to pretend like he's a changed person. Bullshit

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

This subreddit is open for civil, friendly discussion about our common interest, aviation. Excessively rude, mean, unfriendly, or hostile conduct is not permitted.

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BenRed2006@reddit

I stoped reading when I read: ““The FAA encourages pilots to seek help if they have a mental-health condition since most, if treated, do not disqualify someone from flying,” the FAA said in a statement to ABC News, in part. “In fact, only about 0.1% of medical certificate applicants who disclose health issues are denied. Treating these conditions early is important, and that is why the FAA has approved more antidepressants for use by pilots and air traffic controllers.”

What they neglect to mention is that it takes years and tens of thousands of dollars to get cleared for a nonissue… what a load of BS

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cwaterbottom@reddit

Very interesting story. I don't know anything about piloting aircraft so how much danger was the flight in? He pulled the levers but the engines didn't shut down, but I assume someone more determined could have brought the plane down right? How easy would it actually have been?

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Guadalajara3@reddit

It's a pull and twist of the fire handles, so if they just got pulled shouldn't have had an effect. If it was twisted then it would have released halon and the engine would be inoperative. If it was the fuel cutoff switch (which is not stated) then it would have shut the engine down. I believe in that case it could have been restarted

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cwaterbottom@reddit

Yikes, so if it was the fire handles it would have definitely brought the plane down? Sounds like if it was the fuel handles it would have definitely shut the engines down so it sounds like it was the former and he either got interrupted by the other pilots before twisting or he was sufficiently out of it that he didn't complete the procedure.

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CerebralAccountant@reddit

It would have turned the plane into an unpowered glider. The pilots would immediately start descending to keep airspeed up and divert to a nearby airfield. Most commercial aircraft have a glide ratio of around 15:1, which means they can safely glide forward 15 feet for every one foot of descent. Since this aircraft was at 31,000 feet when the incident occurred, they would've had up to (31,000 / 5280 * 15) = 88 miles of gliding range, more than enough to get to Salem or somewhere else.

Dead-stick landings are rare, but in the right conditions they are doable. See for example Air Canada 143 (the Gimli Glider), TACA 110, and Air Transat 236.

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canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit

They'd have had time to restart the engines from that altitude.

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CerebralAccountant@reddit

They certainly had enough altitude. Is it possible to relight the engines in that case, though? I was under the impression (open to correction) that it would be hard or impossible. Everything would be covered in fire retardant, and fuel & hydraulics would be cut off.

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Chaxterium@reddit

Fuel and hydraulics are cut off yes, but are immediately reconnected as soon as the handle is put back into place.

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canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit

That plane uses inert halon gas to purge oxygen from the engine to kill the fire. The halon gets purged by airflow, and the crew can then go through the restart checklist. Undoing the pull-and-rotate re-connects hydraulics and fuel.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Completely wrong

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Chaxterium@reddit

Pulling the handle (without twisting them) will cut off fuel and lead to the engines shutting down.

But they can easily (and quickly) be restarted once the handles are put back into the correct position. Think of those handles like a kill switch. But once the kill switch is deactivated the engine can be fired up again immediately.

If both engines had indeed shut down it would have taken about four minutes to get both engines running again. And realistically we only need one engine running. The plane will fly safely on just one. I believe they were in cruise so they had plenty of time to get the engines running again.

And to further clarify, if both engines had shut down and could not be restarted the plane would have simply become a glider. It would remain under control but would start descending. Not rapidly, and fully controllable.

I’m not saying any of this to downplay what this guy did. Just trying to clarify that the level of actual danger was nowhere near what people tend to think.

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beastpilot@reddit

Airplanes continue to glide without thrust just fine, often for hundreds of miles. There have been airliners that ran out of fuel and still landed at an airport.

Just like a car, you can re-start the engines in flight as well, and you have about 20 minutes to do it.

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HonoraryCanadian@reddit

You can always restart an undamaged engine. It's a common misunderstanding, even Mentour made it, but you can blow the Halon and still restart the engine. The extinguishing agent is for the space in the nacelle and meant to extinguish burning insulation and oil leaks, that sort of thing. It doesn't get anywhere inside the fuel/air path, and even if it did it would be pretty immediately blown out. I've done it in the sims. It's no big deal. Those guys had maybe fifteen seconds to stow the fire handles and the engines would have restarted on their own. After that they'd be fine with the restart procedure.

I'm not saying the incident wasn't awful and dangerous - it certainly was. But it wasn't anywhere close to being certain or even likely death that less informed media has made it out to be.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

Good to know, thank you lol

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flyingfish_trash@reddit

I haven’t worked those planes in some time, but I believe pulling the fire handles closes the fuel SOV. I seem to recall having to pull breakers and then pull that handle in order to disconnect some engine fuel feed line without emptying the wing tank.. but I could be misremembering how that specific plane works. Worked a lot of planes since then.

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Chaxterium@reddit

This is correct. Just pulling the handle will cut off the fuel. Twisting them will fire the bottles.

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Guadalajara3@reddit

Thanks, im no pilot, so I wasn't certain. I just knew it was a pull and twist

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Wrong. Halon isn’t discharged into the engine core.

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Chaxterium@reddit

The twisting of the fire handle fires the fire extinguishing agent into the engine. Pulling the handle will cut off the fuel.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

If he was successful at pulling the handles, the engines would have shut down. The crew would have immediately been able to restart them with minimal loss of speed and altitude.

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LounBiker@reddit

Easy enough.

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cwaterbottom@reddit

What's also interesting about that is that it was up to him to report it to the airline, was the doctor not required to report it since he was a pilot and therefore a risk to others? Maybe German rules are different, or maybe I'm wrong about how they work in the states

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LounBiker@reddit

German rules are indeed different.

His right to privacy meant the doctors could not disclose.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/secrecy-law-stopped-doctors-reporting-germanwings-co-pilot-as-unfit-to-fly

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cwaterbottom@reddit

Yikes

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LounBiker@reddit

Yep

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LounBiker@reddit

Some changes were made, see:

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/europe-adopts-new-pilot-mental-health-rules-after-germanwings-crash-idUSKBN1KF1UH/

But they don't change the underlying privacy rules, only regular checks.

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cwaterbottom@reddit

Damn that's scary, and the rules put in place afterwards to have 2 pilots at all times got dropped by the airlines anyway.

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cwaterbottom@reddit

That pilot just set the autopilot to 100ft though

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redoctoberz@reddit

Check out how US1549 went down, and visualize it with a lot more altitude.

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tipsup@reddit

Hell no!

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Kruse@reddit

Yeah sorry, I'm not feeling bad for this guy and his sob story. Maybe talk to one of the 83 other people he tried to murder and ask how they feel about it.

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Sticky13andit@reddit

He should be in jail and not fly again. But i am happy for him getting better.

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heybudheypal@reddit

Only 3 groups in commercial aviation are routinely dot drug/alcohol tested. Flt Ops,InFlt and TechOps. That dude must've been desperate to try something for his depression. I'm not aware if MM can be spotted on a drug test. To take a chance like that, nobody in their right mind would.

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GutsyMcDoofenshmurtz@reddit

Pilots shouldn’t be using psychedelics…ever.

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Substantial_Copy_730@reddit

0 6 S2 Op

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Fancy-Wrongdoer3129@reddit

If you're upper-middle class, white, and male, you can get away with anything in this country. Disgusting.

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datSpartan@reddit

Classist, racist and sexist in one sentence. This guy will not be getting away with anything.

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polloallaparm@reddit

Do we know why the engines didn’t shut down?

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Chaxterium@reddit

Yep. My under is the fire handles were put back into position immediately. There was enough fuel in the lines to prevent a flameout.

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polloallaparm@reddit

Thank you for the quick explanation. Don’t know why the original question is downvoted. Was generally curious when I read the story and came here to ask

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

This board is full of clowns who want to defend an attempted mass murder.

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Chaxterium@reddit

I’m not sure either. It’s a fair question.

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colin8651@reddit

"I don't know in what capacity I'm going to fly again and I don't know if that's an opportunity that's going to be afforded to me. It's not up to me to engineer that."

Dude, you should be able to get a drivers license again let alone ever fly.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

Bullshit. Shrooms don't last days, and they sure as shit don't make you consider harming or killing someone else. That's entirely on him and the fact we are even remotely considering the possibility of him flying a plane again is asinine.

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Blueberry_Mancakes@reddit

If he was already experiencing severe mental health issues and was unmedicated then psychedelics can absolutely exacerbate your symptoms, and those increased symptoms (paranoia, suicidal thoughts and ideations, distorted perception of self, delusional thinking) can linger for weeks and months after the drug itself has left your system.

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rolfthegoatking@reddit

All I'm hearing is plenty of time for this clown to take accountability, check himself into rehab, and sure as fuck not be piloting a plane when he clearly was not in the right state to do so.

Again, any of us that go to work fucked up on drugs would lose out jobs. Almost any medicine that you might take stronger than ibuprofen states it is not safe to operate heavy machinery. What is a plane? Oh a very heavy piece of machinery.

This is a man who couldn't take the personal responsibility to do the right thing before he ever put on his uniform and almost murdered 83 people. There's no sympathy for this behavior.

Reading how he had multiple times of thinking it wasn't real and all a dream, that doesn't sound like he was depressed. That sounds like little druggie was still high as shit and should be held accountable. Not just let go because he says he feels bad about it.

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HealthyOrange2574@reddit

And it's interesting to me how in his statement he says he thought that "maybe" it wasn't real and he was still high.... "maybe". He never said he was 100% sure he was dreaming/high. So he was aware enough to think it just "might be" a dream, and still willing to risk everyone's lives knowing full well it might NOT be a dream. POS.

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Bravodelta13@reddit

Drug induced psychosis is a thing. It’s doesn’t require the drug to be actively present in your system beyond the initial dosage.

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is3llh0m3s@reddit

The first thing you learn in aviation is aeronautical decision making which is a series of checks before you even set off on a flight. One of which is a self check. If you are not mentally prepared that is a no go. There is no grey area here pilots are trained to make this decision regardless of the pressure to fly. Aviation is not like other professions, mistakes do lead to tragedy here and taking people with you who have not agreed to take that risk is unacceptable. I agree that there should be a system to provide treatment but to allow pilots to fly while on treatment especially with fare paying passengers who are unaware raises a lot of ethical questions. The fact of the matter is not everyone is willing to take that risk and they are entitled to make that decision themselves. Honestly pilots undergoing treatment for mental health should be grounded and provided financial assistance while on treatment until they are fully recovered.

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lhrbos@reddit

People with mental illness should not be in a position where they are in charge of people’s lives - either with or without medication.

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MrZephyr97@reddit

okay sure fair belief (I disagree but see your point), but how do you plan on implementing that without encouraging people to self medicate and bury any sign of distress (therefore making their problems worse)

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cowwithakazoo@reddit

That would be like 90% of doctors and other healthcare professionals. Most people with mental illness don't try to kill people. Weird take.

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Tweezle1@reddit

He had a Chance to play it off like he was poisoned. But instead really admitted a ton of things. A few other weak areas like willing to take mushroom.

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WinFar4030@reddit

Sure mental health is an issue, but what about the potential anguish of all the other families, should things have gone wrong.

Whatever the reasons behind it, he knew precisely what he was doing.

If he is capable of doing that, he is also capable of calling up a counselor and setting up an appointment.

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