What are your opinions on public land?
Posted by No-Tea3294@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 33 comments
I’m not a Libertarian myself so I’m not familiar with the general position. Do think it should be done away with completely? If yes, would you be okay with many national parks and monuments being privately owned? If not, do you agree with the governments overall handling of public land resources? What would you change?
mikeysaid@reddit
By making places "public land" we limit their usability and keep them underdeveloped. Imagine how much better Yosemite would be if it weren't a "National Park". Instead of a stupid lottery to get access to a beautiful place, it would just come down to the only true judge of a person's value to society.
SexySisyphus@reddit
Okay. Say some billionaire somewhere bought Yosemite and now it's his own personal private playground only other billionaires can access.
That better?
Sea_Journalist_3615@reddit
You want to know what people who follow actual theory and logic here is a link on property rights. If you scroll down it has a section on group ownership. Group ownership is illegitimate. https://liquidzulu.github.io/homesteading-and-property-rights/
Tesrali@reddit
The end of that subsection brings up corporations but the argument is terrible.
For most of human history marriages were considered a form of property---and things not considered property (by law) are not necessarily not property (by nature). Property is a formalization (via contract) of control. Since control admits of group control then it is natural. Certainly group ownership requires a hierarchy of control. It is like the author is stuck on this A or B thing, when relationships do have a first among equals. Within that hierarchy you can also establish orthogonality (e.x., it is both of our house, but you get to decorate the kitchen and I get to decorate the den).
The most ridiculous thing about that subsection is that it does not consider cooperative labour mixed with property. Only a ridiculous minority of buildings are built by one man alone---when I help my buddy hold a sheet of plywood in place we both have claim to the improvement on the property.
Sea_Journalist_3615@reddit
"The end of that subsection brings up corporations but the argument is terrible."
Which subsection? I did a search to find where is mentions corporations and it nothing came up. Group property is illegitimate because it's a stolen concept fallacy. property(rights) are a system to determine who gets to decide how something is used without aggression and for avoiding conflict(NAP violations). Contracting about how property is used it contract theory. It's a misuse of a contract. Contracts are for transfer and for letting people use your property. a and b are merely stand ins dude.
Dave and Jim buy a car together. Dave wants to pain the car green and Jim wants to not paint it. Who gets to decide? This is the issue with collective property. it does not solve the issue it intended to solve. who gets to decide how it is used. Flipping a coin, court, or making up some system is contract theory. Contract theory is about property. It is not property. It's an illegitimate contract.
"For most of human history marriages were considered a form of property---and things not considered property (by law) are not necessarily not property (by nature)."
People steal historically too. That doesn't make it legitimate. He is talking of objective law. Not what the illegitimate law states. What you said is not logical as it does not do what property is supposed to do and is an easily bendable and subjective way to view property.
"Property is a formalization (via contract) of control, which may be sold, i.e., monetized. Since control admits of group control then it is natural."
Contract theory and property theory are separate and property theory has to come before contract theory. The reasons I stated above. Group control does not avoid conflict. It's a nonsensical use of the word property.
"Certainly group ownership requires a hierarchy of control."
Group property does not make sense and what you described does not solve the issues with it. You are applying contract theory instead of property rights. You can contract it out to form group organizations involving an individuals property but it can not be group owned and be a legitimate contract. Use is not control. Mixing your labor is not a magical thing that creates ownership over someone elses property nor does it make group property make sense.
Your logic leads to things like involuntary contract theory. (social contract, slave contracts, extortion all are implied from group property theory). I consider those illegitimate as well because it is other people contracting other peoples property against their will. This is another topic though.
"It is like the author is stuck on this A or B thing, when relationships do have a first among equals. Within that hierarchy you can also establish orthogonality (e.x., it is both of our house, but you get to decorate the kitchen and I get to decorate the den)."
This is what I am talking about. Only the owner can contract it as if they both own it and if they can't agree it does not solve the conflict. That is the sole purpose of property. Do you understand what I am saying?
Lets say she wants to decorate the den in a way you don't want. Figuring a way out to get along is contract theory. Then someone will end up getting to decide and it will be them who gets to decide how it is used. That is why it is illegitimate. I have literally no say in public property. It is not even remotely used how I would like. There is no point in even using words like property under your definition. It's subjective and really is just a rejection of property.
"The most silly thing about that subsection is that it does not consider cooperative labour mixed with property. Only a miniscule of buildings are built by one man alone---"
Paying someone to build a house literally can not make it their property. You are exchanging voluntarily for their labor. That is the trade.
"when I help my buddy hold a sheet of plywood in place we both have claim to the improvement on the property."
If you have already homesteaded the land. Your friend "HELPING" you with your stuff does not make it become his stuff. He may homestead an area but it can only be one of yours. There is even a section on determining how to deal with two people homestead the same item at the same time and how it is dealt with. You also realize people trade things other than money right? They trade socially as well.
I understand your position. It's the most common position but as far as I can tell it is wrong. Property is for determining how something is used. Your theory on property does not resolve this issue. I am moving on though from this, no offense. I'm not going to convince everyone and I am no longer trying to in life.
Tesrali@reddit
Ah my bad. On the right there is a navigation dongle. I clicked "On the Impossibility of Group Ownership" since I thought you were referring to that.
This is ahistorical. Property rights are a consequence of game theory working out in the real world. Now we can argue that NAP is some form of idealism we are reaching towards, but in reality, they come about for different reasons. NAP does come about in game theory but you're approaching the issue as a rationalist rather than an empiricist.
Idealism creates lots of nonsense ideas. Even classical liberalism suffers from this to some extent.
Are you using "sole" in this context for emphasis? I disagree that property has a sole use generally.
De facto, you can exert yourself to have a say in public property by reasoning with the guardians of that property. Even in an authoritarian nation this is, generally, the case, as otherwise they wouldn't invite you by saying it is "public." The role of the guardian may or may not require them to hear your claim. Consider the legal status of children for a moment. In classical Roman law they are considered wards of their parents; however, it was always the case that a higher authority could intercede, just as they could on a bad apprenticeship. Certainly the child has to go to the authority, which is more or less extraordinary, but in the case that they did the authority might intercede. This is what it meant for the King to own everything. He was not literally involved in everyone's business---since he had a responsibility to leave their things alone---but he could intercede for moral reasons.
Now you might say that rationally "property" and "guardianship" share no overlap, but an apprentice's contract could be "sold" or "transferred" if the master was under duress. Certainly there was a grey area in this sense. If you believe that property and guardianship are totally separate then the government says it is committing to a guardianship. Libertarians get very confused about guardianship because it violates NAP implicitly in some ways. Rand has famously only one or two sentences about children because it simply doesn't fit into her world view. Guardianship is a historical, and certainly necessary, legal concept.
I hope you'll consider the historical notion of guardianship.
No-Tea3294@reddit (OP)
Maybe “group ownership” or “public land” are a bit misleading terms, but I still feel that there are some lands that are more efficiently or properly owned by a government entity given the general consent of the people.
For example, I think the vast majority of the people in this country and even just around Yellowstone would vote for government ownership given the opportunity. I find it hard to believe that anyone in the general public would benefit more if that land was developed or turned into a paid tourist attraction.
Of course this may differ from one piece of land to another. Perhaps a democratization of the process is a better alternative for the people in the area.
tlonreddit@reddit
My stance on this seems to be moderately unpopular within this subreddit but I like public land. NPS, Fish & Wildlife, USFS, and other Dept. of the Interior programs are the only parts of government I actually want to expand—the US has some top tier wildlife and I simply don’t trust giving something as precious as Yellowstone away to a private owner just for it to be turned into a ski resort or someone’s personal ranch.
TraditionDefender@reddit
plus i love North American nature
buchenrad@reddit
I enjoy public land. It is technically against my principles as a libertarian, but after we chop down the federal government by the first 75% we can start talking about federal land. Until then don't touch. It's one of the few things they haven't royally screwed up yet.
aztracker1@reddit
You'll find that a lot of people are flexible on this point. I'm the lost of things most of us would get rid of, it's far from the top and there's a lot of common ground before it would come up.
BvB247@reddit
I totally agree. Once land has been developed it can’t be undeveloped. Public land and the North American model of conservation saved many species from extinction.
Alarming-Inflation90@reddit
Agreed. Also not a libertarian, but if there's anything that needs kept away from the profit motive, it's fragile ecosystems.
Lakerdog1970@reddit
I think it’s fine. One of the few things the government does reasonably well. And not very expensive.
zizn@reddit
I think eminent domain exists and that just about covers it.
Barskor1@reddit
If members of the public can be excluded from using public land by the government then it is not public land it is the rulers land there are plenty of people who want to preserve nature who formed organizations and have tens of millions if not more in resources to buy land and manage it.
No-Tea3294@reddit (OP)
If I may ask, who is being excluded from public land access?
Barskor1@reddit
Anyone who didn't pay for a park pass or bribe congress critters for a land lease or anyone who stays longer than 2 weeks in BLM teritory.
Ckeyz@reddit
So how do you want the money to be collected to take care of the land? A general tax on everyone? Or a tax on people that what to use it?... lets maybe even call it a park pass Lmao
Barskor1@reddit
If you have to pay money to use your property it is not yours hence the public property idea is a myth as collectively you are a member of the public yet individually you must pay ipso facto the government owns X not the public as they control access.
Ckeyz@reddit
Umm.. ok? I don't think anyone is confused about that
Barskor1@reddit
Your kidding right? Libertarians might be aware the general population lol no.
Ckeyz@reddit
You realize you were posting in a libertarian sub, right?
Barskor1@reddit
You realize that a none libertarian made the source post right?
Ckeyz@reddit
No I did not realize that. But regardless, the context of your first post was very silly.
Barskor1@reddit
Having opinions is human nature.....
No-Tea3294@reddit (OP)
I think most of us pay for our land somehow. Say you pay $100,000 for a house, that’s the price to use it year round as your permanently owned residence.
You then have to pay a small fee to access the land and “use” it for that smaller time frame.
Barskor1@reddit
You never own the house you pay rent to the government or they take the house it is called property tax.
No-Tea3294@reddit (OP)
Gotta agree with you here.
No-Tea3294@reddit (OP)
I do think the whole land leasing process is a bit of a sham. Public lands should be used for a preserve or minimally consumptive activities.
Barskor1@reddit
It is good to have savings of all kinds nature included.
Josiah-White@reddit
If it wasn't public land, we might have a lot less open space And a lot more development and destruction
I am a huge huge fan of preserving things like that
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