Why do the IAE engines have rubber nose cones on their spinners? (V2527-A5 on an A320 if that is relevant.)
Posted by MoukinKage@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 76 comments
agha0013@reddit
apparently the rubber tips are part of an ice protection design,
kerropak@reddit
RR invented this system, and the glue that holds it on. Ice never forms at equal thickness, and when the subsequent unbalance occurs it sheds the ice before it can grow large enough yo cause damage.
-p_air-@reddit
Indeed. During a tour at the RR plant in Derby, UK the guide mentioned that it was one guy who came up with the idea and proposed it. It was a hit. Apparently he got a good bonus from it
Late-Mathematician55@reddit
He should have got a patent for it. Cash for life.
Senior-Barber-7698@reddit
It was my dad and he got paid a bonus in lieu of the patent.
kerropak@reddit
Anything you create or invent for the company belongs to the company. This is standard in many, if not all, countries/businesses
Aratoop@reddit
Most engineering companies automatically own anything you come up with if its work related in the employment contract
kerropak@reddit
When was this? I used to work in the engine assembly shop in Derby and often took tours around the plant.
Total_Coat_4232@reddit
Pretty sure they did the tour at the heritage site on ozzy road
kerropak@reddit
OK, must have been after my time. They stopped the factory tours around 2012 if memory serves. I left the Derby plant and went to Singapore with RR in 2014.
Total_Coat_4232@reddit
Holy moly what an upgrade. How is it? working over there?
kerropak@reddit
TL:DR it was awesome! I went there for 6 months in 2011 to help start up the new facility there. Went back again in 2012 and 2013, until they asked on the last trip if I'd consider going out there permanent. Phoned my wife from the car park and she just said "When do we leave?" Went there in Jan 2014. Unfortunately RR lost billions during covid and they closed a lot of facilities, including Singapore. I got made redundant in Nov 2021, returned to the UK Dec 29th. Not many people open a facility and are still around to close it down. š 25 years with the company.
Total_Coat_4232@reddit
Damn that is so unfortunateā¦. Flipping Covid. I hope a job wasnāt hard to come by after so much experience in an A tier company
kerropak@reddit
I got a position with an American company opening a new facility in the UK. I won't name them, but after working in the positive RR culture for so long it came as a shock to see how some companies treat their workforce. I stayed until the new factory opened 14 months later, it felt the right thing to do, then left.
-p_air-@reddit
Must've been 200, 2008 or 2009.
rob94708@reddit
I was told the same thing, on the same tour, so it must be true!
-p_air-@reddit
ROB IS THAT YOU?
Frosty-Flow@reddit
Ice doesn't hit the tip, it's to stop ice forming effectively in the first place. If ice starts to form, it caused the rubber to unbalance and shed the ice. All before it becomes large enough to cause damage upon ingestion.
twohedwlf@reddit
That's kinda clever and so simple.
blackteashirt@reddit
Well my idea, that the pilot has a hose and pisses out the window onto the engine nose cone, was also clever and simple. Warm urine melts ice, but oh no clearly the corporations are conspiring to keep me down!
tandkramstub@reddit
While it is indeed a clever and simple idea, one needs to remember that in today's aviation there are alse female pilots. Henceforth, your proposed solution would also require some sort of front-butt adaptor, which as one can imagine, would be prohibitively expensive.
blackteashirt@reddit
What you're looking for is called a shewee: https://www.mightyape.co.nz/product/shewee-flexi-pink/37955336?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwq_G1BhCSARIsACc7NxrP3cXUG4dpfi4nIKEZmY-_VOy7L5Ov7uUJiZ6fDtSnsoD9YsxxFMkaApICEALw_wcB
Dies2much@reddit
De-icing companies hate this one simple trick!
jillb3an@reddit
Propeller de ice fluid is like that kinda lol
Equoniz@reddit
I was expecting some sort of actuator to make it flex out when you said itās anti-icing, and that seemed like a super hard place to put such a thing. I think itās kinda cool that the ice impacts actually cause enough deformation for it to be an effective passive thing.
Ecopilot@reddit
When someone figured this out they must have gotten a huge bonus. Think of the cost savings.
Chronigan2@reddit
Yeah right....
Easties88@reddit
It was a RR employee, they would have been the Inventor on the patent and received (and probably still does) a decent bit of ābonusā from that.
dinnerisbreakfast@reddit
Many employees sign contracts that make all their work go to the company.
From the company's perspective, they used company resources and company knowledge to come up with the idea on company time, so the company owns it.
The amount of credit and compensation they receive for their idea is at company discretion.
Sorry, Nikolai Tesla, but your patent is in another castle....
Easties88@reddit
Yeah I know that some companies take all credit essentially, however RR are not one of those companies. I know many current and ex-RR employees who receive an annual payment from their patent.
Most of those are related to manufacturing and arenāt life changing sums, but Iād imagine something that ends up on-engine will be relatively lucrative.
dinnerisbreakfast@reddit
Good to hear some companies will actually treat you fairly! I stand corrected.
N3wThrowawayWhoDis@reddit
Yep. You get an initial bonus for successfully patenting and then subsequent payments if it enters commercial service. I have one pending patent right now š¤
Easties88@reddit
Congrats! Iāve also got one going through the system but unfortunately as an external collaborator we no longer get financial gain from new RR patents. Still good that employees get it though.
itanite@reddit
Pizza party, you mean.
discombobulated38x@reddit
The story goes it was invented and patented by an apprentice in the fans team, and the stage 3 patent award was... significant.
MagPistoleiro@reddit
The interesting thing about this and aviation at all, is that you'd normally think some solution to a problem like this is some super complex system and you go so far into this line of thought that you don't even conceive that the solution it's actually so clever and trivial, like fucking rubber.
kerropak@reddit
The normal solution is to take bleed air from the engine and pipe it to the spinner, and this still happens on many engines. As you can imagine this is complex and adds weight.
FZ_Milkshake@reddit
Nah, engineers are way cleverer (and mostly way lazier) than that. De-icing boots on the wing leading edge don't use actuators either, they just get pumped up with air, expand to break the ice and contract to shed it.
Equoniz@reddit
You meanā¦pneumatic actuation? lol
benerophon@reddit
It's not the ice impacts, ice forms from freezing condensation starting at the tip of the cone, but it's basically impossible for the ice to form evenly all the way round. This means the tip with some ice on won't be balanced, so it wobbles and shakes the ice off.
Equoniz@reddit
Oooohhhhh. Thatās cool too!
Only_Razzmatazz_4498@reddit
I think they mean that when ice starts building up from little droplets of supercooled water it canāt stay put because the rubber flexes and sheds it based on the ice pulling.
Only_Razzmatazz_4498@reddit
I think they mean that when ice starts building up from little droplets of supercooled water it canāt stay put because the rubber flexes and sheds it based on the ice pulling.
omykronbr@reddit
It is a RR patent, that is under license on iae engines.
kerropak@reddit
RR used to be part of the IAE collaboration but sold off their share in 2012
TyrionJoestar@reddit
Good old reliable rubber (:
Conscious_Molasses_5@reddit
Correct, i've seen them on the Trent 700
TinKicker@reddit
RR developed this. Itās truly Roll-Royce elegant design.
Iāve will tend to accumulate on the spinner tipā¦but it wonāt accumulate evenly. This uneven distribution of ice caused the rubber tip to bend while itās rotating. The bed causes the ice to dislodge at a harmless size.
An elegant design.
quickblur@reddit
That's really neat. They should build the entire plane out of rubber!
kockologus@reddit
That brand already exists: called Bo(e)ing
meszlenyi@reddit
worlds most powerful pencil eraser
No_You_123@reddit
So it doesn't hurt as bad if you accidentally get hit by it
FlyNSubaruWRX@reddit
Soā¦..I used to work up in Jackson hole,Wyoming. I remember seeing every 320 come in with ice on the rubber part.
Monster_Voice@reddit
I'm gunna call these wiggle tips until HR tells me to stop...
junebug172@reddit
Theoretically, at least, it's for shedding ice. Found this present during a post flight.
https://imgur.com/a/9I1E6EQ
Frosty-Flow@reddit
I believe non rubber tipped engine spinners, such as that on CF6 engines usually take bleed air from one of the shafts to heat and stop ice forming.
C4-621-Raven@reddit
GE engines (CF34, CF6, GE90, GENx, LEAP etc) donāt heat the spinner, their rounded shape just naturally sheds ice.
notaballitsjustblue@reddit
Ice wobblers
Katana_DV20@reddit
Best reply, this is it exactly.
SirCappalott@reddit
Ice ice baby to go
Pokenfun@reddit
Informally referred to as the Madonna Probe. During each walk-around I would give each one a gentle tweek for proper functionality, and, well, just because......
MagPistoleiro@reddit
How are other engines approach on this?
ellokah@reddit
An incredibly genius idea of engineering by RR. The rubber is flexible, and when spinning and ice is accumulating at the cone, the dynamic imbalance will shake the rubber. This will shed any ice formation before it reaches any critical size.
I once attended a talk about this feature and they showed an internal RR video from the testbed in slow motion while in action. Absolutely ingenious but simple engineering.
discombobulated38x@reddit
Was that the stroboscopic one where the lights flash once per engine revolution so you can see the ice forming statically then breaking off?
ellokah@reddit
Very long time ago š . Just know I saw a video and a guy from RR held a talk about this feature. You clearly saw the cone working and shaking of the ice. I thought it was slow motion but maybe it was strobe light, or both. Actualyl cannot really remember.
howtodragyourtrainin@reddit
The best kind of engineering.
snailmale7@reddit
minimize injury to insects in flight , they bounce right off before being ingested into the engine and destroyed in the engine core...
And with that , I will show myself out of this chat, because I know nothing on the subject.
DarkGinnel@reddit
Prevent ice formation.
When ice builds up, it affects the balance of the spinner, when deforms is slightly and causes the ice to break away.
JordanMeBaby@reddit
Ice can form on the nose cone. Usually on a composite or aluminium cone, hot bleed air can be routed there to melt it and stop the formation, but the engine ingesting hot air isn't ideal and reduces efficiency. Instead they can put a rubber cone in. When ice forms on the rubber, it's unlikely to form in any uniform way so it'll cause the rubber to flex and bend due to the weight and centripetal forces which'll break the ice off
majoraloysius@reddit
Need to paint that thing red and get a Hornady sponsorship.
Calvinbouchard2@reddit
It's so birds and FOD will just bounce off instead of damaging the engine.
Frosty-Flow@reddit
Your joking right? š
Calvinbouchard2@reddit
Of course.
Even if they bounced, it would still hit the lip of the intake. Lol
Frosty-Flow@reddit
I knew it š¤£ what a spanner for even suggesting otherwise š
Mahrabeel@reddit
Did it originate under this patent, or did one come earlier?
US4393650A Patent Number
Inventor: Francis C. Pool
Current Assignee: Rolls Royce PLC
Description
This application is a continuation-in-part of U.S. application Ser. No. 222,750, filed Jan. 6, 1981, now abandoned, which, in turn, was a continuation of U.S. application Ser. No. 887,418, filed Mar. 15, 1978, and now abandoned. The present invention relates to a gas turbine propulsion engine of the type in which thrust is provided only from a flow of exhaust gases or only from a flow of a combination of exhaust gases and by-pass air, the gas turbine propulsion engine having an automatic ice shedding spinner.
More specifically, the automatic ice shedding spinner is conically shaped and has a tip portion of short axial length relative the overall axial length. At least the surface of the tip portion is made of a different material from the rigid material of the main body portion, the surface being flexible relative to the main body portion of the spinner at operational rotations of the spinner whereby ice is automatically shed from the spinner due to cracks being developed at the bond between the tip portion and the main body portion of the spinner and then propagated over the entire surface of the spinner.
CAM6913@reddit
The spinners are hollow points and the rubber tip aids in rapid expansion on impact