Thermal Grizzly Presents PhaseSheet PTM Thermal Pad
Posted by Noble00_@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 104 comments
Posted by Noble00_@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 104 comments
ralazin@reddit
I bought what was supposed to be PTM 7950 from Moddiy which every one said was a reliable merchant. Performance however was fair to poor on two different laptops. I followed exact instructions and I barely saw any improvement. I was told by Moddiy that it was my install wasn't right, more like it wasn't the real thing, I then went to Linus tech tips and bought some which I thought might be the real thing, but after paying a week later I get an email saying that their warehouse inventory was wrong and they didn't really have any and did not know when they would get any more, three weeks to get my refund and that only happened because I put the charge in dispute. I no longer trust either company and really am disappointed in Linus Tech Tips store. I now have some PTM from thermal Grizzily haven't use it yet and expect won't be any better. To me PTM just looks like another scam fake....
VexLaLa@reddit
PTM takes 10-20 heat cycles to attain full thermal conductivity. you gotta give it a few days of on and off for it to work well.
ralazin@reddit
sqw
VexLaLa@reddit
No need to get so heated over it… was just stating a common fact that most people often miss when using PTM and assume the worst.
Having used the Honeywell stuff myself, it works very well. Idk about TG tho.
ralazin@reddit
I would like to try the Honeywell but so far I have not been able to get the real thing, then I would know if PTM really worked but already wasted over 60 bucks, to paraphrase the Who song I won't get fooled again.....
lizardscales@reddit
No improvement vs what? Are you checking just temperature or temperature and package power? Improvement could be minimal over fresh paste though this stuff shouldn't pump out over time.
ralazin@reddit
WTF do you think? compared to Corsair XMT 50. I know WTF I'm doing. These sellers will lie through their teeth to make a buck honesty and integrity don't exist anymore. I get this BS almost every hardware site I visit, Sick and tired of the insinuation of stupidity.....
lizardscales@reddit
You said PTM looks like a scam from multiple sellers. You provide no context on your results.
HeWillGladly@reddit
I wonder how this compares to PTM7950
Lukeforce123@reddit
What are the chances that it's just rebranded PTM7950?
HeWillGladly@reddit
Non-zero, definitely. As others in the comments have mentioned, reliable channels to getting PMT7950 aren't a given even now, so maybe just being that channel would be enough to justify a relabel.
However, I'd like to think that a company whose whole marketing angle is custom thermal solutions at a premium would get a little more involved, or just not bother.
I'm sure we will find out which is the case
MaverickPT@reddit
And for one, this one is in Europe and from a known company so a win in my book
DESTR0ID@reddit
If I remember correctly, Ltt sells it
MaverickPT@reddit
But we have to pay import duties
DESTR0ID@reddit
If I remember correctly, they started carrying it so people could have a legitimate source to turn to, even if it's not the cheapest option
MaverickPT@reddit
Oh yeah and I laud them for that But now if the thermal thermalgrizzly option performs well ill probably go for that
jofeRR@reddit
are you portuguese? it's october and still can't find it here besides ebay
MaverickPT@reddit
I did and just used some thermal grizzly PhasePad a couple days ago. I just got it out of their official website
DESTR0ID@reddit
It sounds interesting, but I'll need to see some long-term testing before I consider it
sylfy@reddit
I’m curious - is PTM7950 the only phase transition thermal compound right now? Surely other companies must be working on their own versions.
Christopher261Ng@reddit
Yes, but material research & development is enormously difficult and expensive and the PC cooling product companies budgets are pennies compare to giant industrial conglomorates the like of Honeywell.
Snarks_Domain@reddit
Laird definitely makes their own. Their best being the TPCM7000 series. It melts at a slightly higher temperature than the Honeywell stuff but ends up with similar performance. Hitachi apparently makes Phase Change Material as well. There are several other smaller companies that make their own as well.
Then there is a large grey area for smaller retail brands. Most likely they have chosen a supplier and then either relabelled under their own brand, or possibly pay a premium to use Honeywell branding. Of course some of the PCM's on the market could be rebranded based on other large manufacturers. Thermal Grizzly already rebrands thermal pads to sell, and I assume the same is true for some of their other Thermal Interface Materials. This isn't a bad thing, and I'm sure they have the ability to request slight modifications to different products as well.
antifocus@reddit
https://www.laird.com/products/thermal-interface-materials/phase-change
Laird. There are also some Chinese manufacturers, but the result seems to be mixed.
cheekynakedoompaloom@reddit
thermalright's Helios pad is almost certainly ptm7950 so thermal grizzly doing the same thing is very likely.
Corentinrobin29@reddit
A test just came up. Thermalright Heilos isn't rebranded PTM7950, it's much worse. They cheaped out on the chemistry, and it performs on the lower end of PTM7950. Genuine PTM7950 performs *SIGNIFICANTLY* better than the clones/alternatives.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
XFX is charging $100 over their regular 7900XTX card for adding the PTM7950
classifiedspam@reddit
What the heck? 100$ just for a thermal pad?
Elketh@reddit
No. The new Magnetic Air model actually has a $120 lower MSRP than the old Merc 310 ($980 vs $1100), but since the latter has 18 months of price drops behind it and the new model only launched last month, I'm sure the new one is more expensive at retailers right now. It's also more than just the same card with a thermal pad. It has new fans with fluid-dynamic bearings and the same pin to pad easy swap mechanism you see on some Sapphire cards, as well as a slightly redesigned cooler. All of that combined shaves a couple of degrees off compared to the Merc 310 based on TPU's testing. It's the better card in every way - just released very late.
classifiedspam@reddit
Ah, right. I think i have read about that card on Igor's Lab. Very interesting, will keep an eye out for this one. Thanks for clearing that up.
NoAirBanding@reddit
Doesn't ROG Ally use PTM from the factory?
Ornery-Purpose-388@reddit
It is PTM7950
ocaralhoquetafoda@reddit
Wait for reviews? I mean, this is brand new
HeWillGladly@reddit
For sure, the price looks good.
If these can eke out a couple degrees better than rebranded PTM7950 e.g. Thermalright Heilos, the few extra dollars would be a no-brainer
ocaralhoquetafoda@reddit
Oh, yeah, I used OG PTM7950 BEFORE. Very satisfied with it, but I can't get it easily or cheaply, compared to other markets. On the other hand, I have an official thermal grizzly reseller quite close that has all their stuff in stock. If everything is in the same ballpark (price/performance) to PTM7950, the ptm from thermal grizzly will be an easy sell
Dressieren@reddit
The only place that I can justify using PTM7950 is on a GPU block because buying the OG is simply such a pain to get your hands on. I somewhat recently bought some (6 months ago maybe) and it took around 3 weeks to arrive. If I could drive an hour to buy some it would be a very large quality of life change.
Shaurendev@reddit
Ironically using it on a GPU block is not that good idea, it doesn't get warm enough to do its phase change thingy
SherriffB@reddit
I've been trying to warn fellow watercoolers about this, at least on this thermal grizzly product they lay it out it needs to cycle a few times to 60c to be as effective as possible.
There is no way the "cool" side of my heat exchange (the GPU block coldplate) is reaching 60c when my coolant is at 30c.
Numerlor@reddit
why wouldn't the immediate area heat up that much? the block is fairly thick and the PTM layer is thin on the die, so unless your gpu is relatively low power and it itself doesn't get to those temps it shouldn't be an issue.
And you can still let the coolant get to higher temps (something like 45 should be fine) to cycle it before it sets
RuinousRubric@reddit
Even high power GPUs stay very cool as long as your loop has more than the bare minimum in terms of radiator area. For typical setups a temperature past 60 on the GPU is a sign that something is wrong.
SherriffB@reddit
I've never had a watercooled card hit 60c.
Usually coolant to GPU delta is 15-20c depending on how good the block is.
That means unless it's a fringe case both the GPU and Block are below 60c and the coolant is even cooler still.
My GPU hot spot doesn't even hit 60c watercooled and that with a custom bios flash.
Max rated temp for most parts is 50-60c. I would need to shut my loop down completely to hit those temps and my pc would likely tjmax shutdown.
It's not feasible unless your loop is already struggling hard to discharge heat.
Numerlor@reddit
Maybe my view is just skewed because of my xtx that easily hit 60 average with ptm on it at 500w, which is also probably not as good of a contact because of chiplets
Well shutting down fans would be the point of it, and unless you also load the cpu I don't think it should be getting hot enough to hit shutdown temps, maybe throttling at worst. But it only needs to be hot enough to melt the PTM pad
SherriffB@reddit
For context. I can push 600w through a 4090 in furmark and it doesn't hit 60c.
My coolant hovers around 30c.
The block has to be cooler than the card in order to cool it or it cannot work, that means your card would need to be well over 60c and your coolant temps would be touching the unsafe for watercooling component ranges.
You would be destroying your loop or at least into the proximity of causing damage no person should be happy with.
I mean thermally triggered PC shutdown, your CPU would be cooking to get your GPU block hot enough for the phase change to work.
Have you ever seen post by people reporting their coolant runs exploded out of their fittings or their pumps stopped working when coolant got to hot? Those are the kind of temps we are talking about.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
Yeah but XFX is charging $100 on their latest 7900XTX card with the only change being the use of the PTM7950
Dressieren@reddit
In terms of performance yes but it does save me plenty of time and not needing to take apart the block and drain the whole loop unless I’m doing a full tear down. The other strength that it has is no pump out and the 7950 that I have put in there months ago will still be the same unlike paste and I’d rather not risk a GPU with Liquid Metal
Kiriima@reddit
It won't win a couple degrees. That would be a couple degrees over liquid metal.
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/JHuH4vQmefypMymq6svGnQ-1200-80.png.webp
It's purely 'whatever is cheaper' choice.
alterexego@reddit
That's exactly what I've been seeing on my 3080 since Thursday, with the Thermaltake Heilos vs old Kryonaut. People need to slow their roll, if PTM drops your temps by 10C, you had toothpaste switched for TIM before.
Kiriima@reddit
The main benefit is longevity. You put it down on the CPU, you just forget about it. GPUs have VRAM that needs its own solution. There are termopads with graphene that don't dry up, but they are not cheap and you need the exact thickness according to your GPU model spec since it doesn't compress much.
Independent_Chain_10@reddit
Why wouldn't phase change ptm be applicable for gpu vram cooling ?
Kiriima@reddit
Because of the gaps between the vram and the heatsink. It only hard presses on the gpu itself. Vram chips are vulnerable to pressure, there are like 4-12 of them and they don't need to get rid of as much heat, so we use thick termopads for those.
benjiro3000@reddit
More a issue that a lot of thermal pastes degrade over time, and some even fairly fast, despite high price tags.
Yea, bad initial 1 cent paste's is so common but even repasting with expensive stuff can degrade. This is why people love PTM, because its sold for product where longevity is a must, and the thermal gains are a side benefit.
And longevity does not mean just "time" alone but also cycles. You can have a past surviven on a CPU for 2 years without massive degrading but the same paste degrades to crap in 4 months maybe on a GPU or other component that is not properly cooled / or fast cycles heat/cooling.
joshglen@reddit
How does this compare to Kryonaut thermal paste?
Nebkheperura@reddit
I tried using kryosheet pads for an AMD 7950X CPU, but they gave much worse results than a good thermal paste.
In the specifications on the Thermal Grizzly website, there is no objective reference to the heat transfer capabilities of these new pads, which can only mean that they do not perform very well.
SaberRider85@reddit
Disagree here. As far as I know, the started to not quantify their heat transfer capabilities in raw numbers, due to the fact, that it is extremely hard to measure and the data change, depending on the measurement environment. I blieve, Igor, from Igors Lab said something similar. He invested in an expensive machine and can now run tests of thermal paste, pads, PTM, etc.
Nebkheperura@reddit
That may be, but without objective data it's just fluff. Let's wait for some serious comparisons...
SaberRider85@reddit
I do believe in what Igor and also Thermal Grizzly said, on why they moved away from giving out raw numbers. These numbers seem to be nothing but "marketing numbers", that are being used to bait customers.
Yes, it is easer for the customer to compare products, if one has a higher value for heat transfer than the other product. How do these numbers help you, if they are - very possibly - fantasy numbers?
Vitosi4ek@reddit
I like how this sudden trend of PC boutique companies making phase-change thermal pads only started because Honeywell thought it was too big and important to cater to plebs in the consumer market. If PTM7950 was simply available at retail (even in big sheets, I'm not even asking perfectly pre-cut), none of the PC companies would even think of competing because they'd just be perceived as a knockoff.
clockwork2011@reddit
Its cute that you think PC gamer market would be anything more than a rounding error to Honeywell selling both B2B and Retail.
Veastli@reddit
LTT store sells uncut large sheets at reasonable prices. 200mm x 160mm sheets was on sale for $35 last week. Now back the the regular price. They also sell a small sheet for $15.
They source it directly from Honeywell.
Vitosi4ek@reddit
Which is weird, because they were the first one to even pay attention to PTM7950 (2 years ago or so?), and someone on the WAN Show suggested selling the pre-cut pads on LTTStore, but they quickly dismissed the idea because "Honeywell won't even pick up the phone unless you're a Forture 500 company or government organization". So I'm not really sure what changed.
Slyons89@reddit
They could be buying them from a distributor instead of Honeywell directly.
Veastli@reddit
Or some Honeywell exec's kid showed him the video, and he told sales to give LTT a call.
A Youtube channel with 15 million subs can get the attention of even the stodgiest of firms.
antifocus@reddit
There are PTM reviews on Chinese sites posted in 2020, there could be earlier ones elsewhere. Also, you'll probably have a bunch of distributors or resellers that are willing to take on non-industry buyers.
NoAirBanding@reddit
Linus found a distributor that wasn't Honeywell.
Glittering_Power6257@reddit
Could’ve reached out anyway, because the worst Honeywell could say was “no”, and someone probably said “Yes”.
Spirited-Guidance-91@reddit
Honeywell won't talk to you if you aren't colossal but a distributor might and LTT is big enough to place an order they would care about.
Mczern@reddit
But then you'd have to support LTT.
intelminer@reddit
They make...surprisingly good products for shit sold on youtube
I'd rather one of their water bottles than NordFactorBetterHelpPCBway
Vitosi4ek@reddit
Because they actually make products as opposed to slapping their logo on a T-shirt and a baseball cap and calling it "merch" (like 95% of youtubers do). Their ratcheting screwdriver is legit one the best on the market as proven by independent testing. Though its reputation would be a lot better if Linus wasn't... Linus on occasion. Him having an unsupervised live mic for 3-4 hours a week has definitely hurt LTT's image far more than it helped it.
bizude@reddit
I bought it on a whim and it really is a nice screwdriver.
Flaimbot@reddit
still better than not having it and be in doubt what's on the mind of the "ceo". that way you know if he tries to turn on the community for a cashout
BioshockEnthusiast@reddit
I must be roughly the same proportions as Linus because I've never in my life found clothes that fit me this well. I have a lot of their products because everything I've gotten from them has been rock solid.
dirufa@reddit
I'd let my CPU burn
Major_Heart7011@reddit
But then you are supporting LTT......
WildVelociraptor@reddit
Honeywell thought correctly lol
gezafisch@reddit
Honeywell is a massive corporation, I used to work for them. They don't need to sell to PC gamers, it's too small of a market for them to care about
Sorteport@reddit
Honeywell has absolutely no interest in selling directly to a small PC enthusiast market. Imagine contacting Micron to buy 50 gddr6 chips, do you think they would bother with that? Nope they wouldn't. Same with Honeywell. They sell to large industrial customers and to distributors in bulk.
Deathcomes4usAL@reddit
As in no heat spreader application?
Vitosi4ek@reddit
From what I understand putting a phase-change pad on a regular CPU with an IHS wouldn't be too much more effective than a regular paste because in that application, the interface between the IHS and the base of the heatsink isn't the problem - the problem is getting heat from the die itself to the IHS. The heat's just too concentrated on a tiny surface to flow very well. Unless you're willing to delid the CPU (by first literally cooking it in the oven so the solder melts), it doesn't make much sense. The pads are more for laptop CPUs or GPUs, where the die is exposed with a heatsink right on top.
Dressieren@reddit
First: most delidding now is done through using effectively a vice grip to move the IHS micrometers from side to side until the solder eventually breaks off. If the solder is stubborn you can use a heat gun, but it’s not needed at all. The oven and a razor blade is the early 2010s tech.
Second: the range where a thermal paste is more effective and the range where PTM7950 is more effective are different. The general rule of thumb is that you would use PTM7950 whenever you would want to use Liquid Metal. PTM7950 won’t dry out and is immune to pump out. 7950 will out perform lower quality pastes pretty consistently, but in the case of using it between an IHS and a cold plate on a waterblock a high end thermal paste like KPX or kryonaut extreme will perform better below 80c and 7950 will perform better over 80c.
Ive used Liquid Metal quite a bit in the past and basically replaced every time that I’d use it with PTM7950. If I had a CPU that would sit above 80c I would use PTM7950 on the IHS, but since I don’t need to drain my loop to change thermal paste I’ll stick with that. High end Intel rendering machines or non x3d ryzen 9s would likely benefit if they still sit around the 90c line while hammering the CPU, but that’s my only thing I can think of that it’s out of pure laziness of never wanting to change your thermal paste. And I’m 100% that lazy when it comes to not wanting to take apart my GPU block and repaste it.
antifocus@reddit
They already provide for Lenovo for some of their laptops, now probably even more. That's a much bigger volume than any after market paste.
Winter_2017@reddit
I'm sure Honeywell is more than happy to leverage it's existing b2b sales experience to sell an ultra-niche product through third parties and ignore the headaches that come with direct-to-consumer sales.
Aleksanterinleivos@reddit
If this will be available in normal stores worldwide, like their other products, I might actually jump on this pad-train-
P3akyBlind3rs@reddit
Kryo sheet works fantastic for me. I think this one would be cheaper and hopefully not that big of a difference between them. Thermal Paste time should be up, this is so much better , cleaner and easy maitenance
Strazdas1@reddit
How are the temperature comparisons? From what ive read thermal paste still wins in thermal conductivity due to getting into all the uneven scratches on the surface?
P3akyBlind3rs@reddit
Scratches? If you have your IHS scratched that deep where you need to fill the gaps - you have other problems. If you refer to tiny scratches - that doesn’t make sense and it will never be any differences.
Not sure what you read / where - but I have very good temps compared to thermal paste i used ( and I used the most expensive one also ) - thermal grizzly kryonaut extreme.
Both CPU and GPU - are very cool - as I would use liquid metal. But without all the hassle of liquid metal.
Strazdas1@reddit
Every IHS has microscratches that will leave small air bubbles from a thermal pad. This, from what i read, result in about 2-3C higher temperatures.
with GPUs its different since you are attaching directly to the chip.
nova46@reddit
I'll take a 2-3 C hit for the convenience of never having to apply/remove thermal paste again.
P3akyBlind3rs@reddit
I never( in 20 years of PC building) experienced this - 2-3C is a lot! But you do you! Good luck!
Dawelio@reddit
Main reason why I haven't gone with Kryo sheet is specifically due to them being conductive. Even though I'm an enthusiast and have done several paste applications during the years etc, I just find it a bit uncomfortable knowing that pad is conductive and could cause a short.
This one however being non conductive, is a massive selling point in my eyes.
teh_drewski@reddit
Yeah.
I'm comfortable with electronics and PC builds but I'm not "guarantee I didn't just short my $1000 GPU" comfortable.
Respect to those builders for sure, I'll still with my babby's first non-conductive repastes thanks.
Rapogi@reddit
i wonder whats the difference b/w this and kryosheet? i thought kryosheet was also phase change
JuanElMinero@reddit
Kryosheet is chemically unreactive, has no components that evaporate, is highly thermally stable and doesn't change phases.
It's easier to apply than what we've seen so far, but is electrically conductive. So, users need to make sure parts don't flake off and (depending on application) protect the surrounding circuitry like one would for liquid metal.
The PTM pads seem to have generally higher performance, but I don't know how well they do are after really long timeframes, say 5+ years.
kyjolski@reddit
Does it matter? No paste will last 5 years anyway. If PTM has to be reapplied after such time that's perfectly reasonable. It's proven to outperform paste.
MyAccount42@reddit
That's just false information. Yes, a lot of pastes will degrade by 5 years, but there are also quite a few that last a long time. A bunch of the Arctic pastes, for example, are known for their durability, and iirc the Noctua ones last a long time as well. I personally used the MX-4 in my last build for over six years and saw pretty much no degradation in that time, and it was advertised to last for eight. Durability is something I wish reviewers addressed more.
Acrobatic_Age6937@reddit
besides i will inevitably have to thoroughly clean my pc every few years, replacing the paste while im at takes no time.
For huge installations e.g. server rooms i can imagine a significant cost benefit though.
JuanElMinero@reddit
No, it doesn't matter when comparing paste vs. TPM, paste gets pretty much universally outlived at comparable performance levels.
My comment and the question above were about Kryosheet vs. TPM though, which are both very long lasting. The 5 years figure was an arbitrary pick, some people might keep their systems longer, especially with today's slower performance scaling.
In theory, Kryosheet doesn't need to be replaced at all after setting, as there's nothing in them that degrades from heat cycles. They haven't been on the market long enough to prove their limits yet, which is the obvious caveat.
alterexego@reddit
Also, if you're still using the same GPU after five years, I'm sure you'll care enough to change the TIM/pad
salgat@reddit
To add, they last forever until you take off the heatsink. Even PTM needs to be reapplied after 5+ years to regain its optimal performance.
JuanElMinero@reddit
Just for clarity, the 5 years number was chosen arbitrarily, based on buying habits for some components. I'd be thrilled if PTM manages to keep a good level of performance for longer than that.
Kryosheets are good for devices you really wouldn't like to dismantle again after setting them up, like some especially obnoxious laptop designs.
iDontSeedMyTorrents@reddit
Kryosheet is a sheet of graphite. It doesn't melt and is therefore not phase change.
delpy1971@reddit
Dam tried to order three of these at 10 euro approx each and then Thermal Grizzly tries to charge you another 25 euro to ship
Will just use the PTM7950 much cheaper lol
PotentialAstronaut39@reddit
I think Thermalright Heilos will still be cheaper per square centimeter.
But we'll have to see first how large those sheet of theirs are at 11$ a piece.
RandomCollection@reddit
Whatever else, I'm glad there are more competitors to the PTM thermal pad space - it should force a level of innovation and put a downward pressure on pricing.
We'll have to wait for reviews to see if this new PTM product is competitive with the PTM 7950.
Noble00_@reddit (OP)
Time to take the ~~red pill~~ and start using phase changing materials