Bridging the Bridgeway Gap

Posted by fractionalgem@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 30 comments

What would make NetJets truly a career destination in your eyes? It is for some today, but in reality it still pales in comparison to any legacy for most pilots living situations. NetJets is planning on doubling in size again to around 1200 aircraft and around 7000 pilots. To achieve that I think its fair to say they need to become a career destination. A couple things come to mind. Match legacy Pay, new contract is still 17% percent short for small cabin, 3% less for large cabin, and yes Class 5 does make more than narrowbody legacy pay, but an obvious shortfall for most. DH pay and FDP (Flight duty pay) protection if you have to divert or cancel for mx. One hour FDP minimum per leg. Insurance - our insurance is better than the legacies hands down so keep that. Retirement - switch to a ~ 18% DC, the 66% 401k match is great and all but that with the 1/3 of FDP still doesn’t esnt come close to airline DC. QOL - better hotels in large markets - one for one rest over 10, you do 14 hours of duty you get 14 hours off. I think with this short list while costing the company millions to implement would level the playing field a bit when pilot hiring picks up again. Despite doing a bit more work, it could be a career destination. What do you think?

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30 Comments

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captainsween@reddit

Honestly, why does the gap need to be bridged? NJ turns down 9 applicants for every one that is accepted. I know many good friends with amazing resumes who were rejected by NJ. As much as I would love to get more benefits and more pay, I don’t see the business case when they are getting 700 qualified applicants every month.

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

They will need to pay to retain experience especially at 7000 pilots. These billionaires and fortune 1000 companies are not going to accept two 25 year olds with a combined 3500 hours TT. There are many owner contracts where they require both pilots to have over 2500 TT (the minimum to be PIC currently) many new hires in the last year have 1000-1500, and on average you will fly about 400-600 hours a year at NJ.

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captainsween@reddit

Interesting angle, but I would disagree in the sense that with 7,000 pilots, they would have even more flexibility in regard to these high time owner contracts. Larger pilot pool to choose from. Thoughts?

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

Its not working for the regionals or other places that have had high turnover in the lower part of the seniority list, why they had/have a captain shortage and forced upgrades at some, the captain shortage also forced metering to the majors and did park metal. Unless NJ lowers their standards again they will have a lack of experienced captains because most FO’s will do what they did the last hiring boom, come work 500 hours and a year or so and leave for a legacy. Eventually that causes a lopsided staffing issue. Why new hires are now getting the challenger 650 as First Officers and there are some 3 year captains on it. The owners particularly on the large cabin will not like that.

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captainsween@reddit

That is an interesting take. I would agree with that to some extent, however, there will always be a certain percentage of the pilot group that are “lifers”. You also see that in the regionals or in any company. It will be interesting to see what happens, but if you are right, it will be many years down the road till the effects are seen.

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Lat_Pilot@reddit

I made 60k in FDP last year. I’m quite happy being with NetJets. No interest in the airlines.

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SkySherpa@reddit

What if I told you things at QS could be better? Life is good now with the new contract, but as OP pointed out if the company wants to achieve their goals, the contract needs to reflect that we’re unquestionably a career destination.

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Lat_Pilot@reddit

My first year FO I made $130k on the 7/7 schedule and last year I did 160k on 8/6. Made Captain in EXACTLY 2 years. Much greener pastures now.

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SkySherpa@reddit

I don’t even have to ask which fleet haha. Roughly same for me, on the Latitude as well. ‘21 hire

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

Think about the old timers at NJ 20 years ago that only made $27K year one, even adjusted for inflation a new hire today makes on avg $100K more than a new hire 20 years ago. A lot of progress has been made, and we have a lot more to go.

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SkySherpa@reddit

Monumental progress for sure. Hope we as a pilot group and company can continue the momentum!

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Inpayne@reddit

I think Netjets was a cool job. I didn’t mind doing all the extra stuff like baggage, taking care of the pax ect. I just didn’t want to be on short call reserve with no ability to control what I’m doing for 7 days straight for the next 35 years. And that’s why I jumped. It wasn’t the pay, or the short overnights or the hotels. 7 or 8 days is a long ass time. Now I’m gone 4 days and it seems too long. The big advantage is home basing. But you are still commuting. You just don’t have to worry about it is the only difference. If you can live in base with a major airline QOL is way higher and at the end of the day there really isn’t much they can do to change that.

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

Its fair you dont know what you are doing every day unless you are large cabin, and even then that does change sometimes. Personally i like that every day is different and going to new places every week. I just dont see how they can meet their growth plan without significant changes.

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Inpayne@reddit

Yeah there are no doubt advantages and good things with Netjets. I would have been happy to stay there if a better option didn’t come along. It wasn’t so much caring about what was going to happen day to day and more about wondering if I was going to make any money or do 5 legs with minimal pay or 1 cross continental with good pay. So actually maybe it did come down to money. Lol Duty rigs would change the job for sure for the better.

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21MPH21@reddit

Actually discussed this the other day, the problem is we only know 121 so there's a lot we don't know about. Some things we talked about. The amount of time at work vs a legacy needs to at least be equal. 7/7 isn't happening at any legacy. As you said, pay and DC need to be at least as good. I need to know for certain what jet I was going into. I want a FA. No, I need a FA. FC seats on every commute.

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

Most of my friends at legacies both narrowbody and wide body work about 12-16 days a month, so similar to 7/7 or CC52 in terms of duty days

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21MPH21@reddit

12 out of 30 vs 15 out of 30 isn't the same. Plus the 12 days is typically one leg or a turn vs a long FDP.

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

Why I also said the 52 day (13 days a month) schedule, theres flexibility at NJ and 121 to work more or less.

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21MPH21@reddit

But, that pays less than the advertised salary, right? And you still have the extremely long FDP, right? 6 on in a row? Not for me.

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

Long FDP? What do you mean? Some days day 1 or 7 all I do is airline and get to the hotel and work a 3 hour day. Some days those are extended days and i got an extra 2500+ just for that. Yes some days are 5 legs and pushing 14 hours on the smaller fleets, and yes we do extra duties. I like having more than 3-4 days off at a time though. NetJets has a 5 day trip option you can work, the trade off is less flight pay. What would make NetJets on par with a legacy for you?

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TopOsprey@reddit

You don’t need a flight attendant at all. I’m on a super midsize and besides the safety briefing, the passengers are almost entirely hassle free and don’t need any help. In the last few tours I think I have gotten up once to help a guy connect to the Bluetooth that’s it.

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minfremi@reddit

The ability to be home based internationally and be paid to commute (like Atlas does) would be a plus for me!

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vanillanuttapped@reddit

Clarification: Atlas does not pay you to commute. They pay for the ticket. The travel is done on your own time. (And before someone jumps in and "BuT AcKsHuLyS!" me, yes there are ways to commute on company time but no one is able to do it 100% of the time on both ends of a trip.)

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Embarrassed_Spirit_1@reddit

I've thought about making the jump, especially as a commuter, but decided against it because of the whole FDP system. I don't want to be 60 years old and be WISHING the company was working me to my max so i can maximize my pay for my time away. My goal is to work as less as possible.

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

The FDP system is a double edged sword, but a productive month is only blocking about 50-70 hours. If you work two 7 day trips a month so 14 days total, and fly 25 hours in the 7 days thats 15 hours of FDP @ $200/hour with 1/3 of that going to your 401k non elective. So flying 50 hours a month is $6000 extra a month And flying 70 hours a month is $10,000 extra. Over 12 months thats an extra $72,000-$120,000 on top of the posted base pay rates, not including OT/holiday or night pay. It is an incentive. That and extra day for a junior captain is about $2200 and for a senior captain about $3500 per day they pick up regardless if they fly or not.

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madbarn@reddit

The only problem with FDP is it’s most certainly not guarenteed and it varies a ton, especially based on what fleet you are in. Guys on the sovereign, XLS, and to a lesser extent the globals make soooooo much less in FDP. It’s really not fair to them. If the company grows so rapidly and grows the fleet so much, the FDP will go DOWN as flying is spread across more crews. It’s definitely not something you can count on always making an extra $70K a year. Just food for thought.

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fractionalgem@reddit (OP)

I think it should also start at 0 hours, but with getting rid of the older fleets, and normal staffing levels it should make the QOL better with shorter duty days and longer nights.

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jrf1234@reddit

A+ title

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Kw1satz_Had3rach@reddit

Everything you mentioned sounds good to me. FDP for airlines would go a long way as well imo

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity: --- What would make NetJets truly a career destination in your eyes? It is for some today, but in reality it still pales in comparison to any legacy for most pilots living situations. NetJets is planning on doubling in size again to around 1200 aircraft and around 7000 pilots. To achieve that I think its fair to say they need to become a career destination. A couple things come to mind. Match legacy Pay, new contract is still 17% percent short for small cabin, 3% less for large cabin, and yes Class 5 does make more than narrowbody legacy pay, but an obvious shortfall for most. DH pay and FDP (Flight duty pay) protection if you have to divert or cancel for mx. One hour FDP minimum per leg. Insurance - our insurance is better than the legacies hands down so keep that. Retirement - switch to a ~ 18% DC, the 66% 401k match is great and all but that with the 1/3 of FDP still doesn’t esnt come close to airline DC. QOL - better hotels in large markets - one for one rest over 10, you do 14 hours of duty you get 14 hours off. I think with this short list while costing the company millions to implement would level the playing field a bit when pilot hiring picks up again. Despite doing a bit more work, it could be a career destination. What do you think? --- This comment was made by a [bot](https://github.com/kdknigga/rflying_tower_bot). If you have any questions, please [contact the mods of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/flying).