Is GM’s last 10 years the greatest run of performance cars?
Posted by spiketeam@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 196 comments
I was thinking after writing this comment
GM performance is really something else. Also routinely underrated considering the cars they have been consistently pushing out over at least the last decade.
So what exactly did GM performance division push out over the last 10 years?
- Camaro Z/28(5th gen Camaro)
- Chevrolet SS
- CTS-V
- ATS-V
- C7 corvette(regular one)
- c7 corvette z06
- c7 corvette zr1
- 6th gen Camaro ss 1le
- 6th gen Camaro zl1
- c8 corvette
- c8 corvette z06
- c8 corvette zr1
- ct4-v blackwing
- ct5-v blackwing
- Escalade V
I wonder if I’m forgetting anything else. This is an insane list in terms of quantity, variety and sheer capability. Each of these were regularly regarded as best in class in terms of their driving experience while undercutting the cars they were handily beating. While also offering manuals and 150$ oil changes.
Is this GM’s golden era? Taking it further, is this the best 10 years in terms of performance cars from any manufacturer?
Moist_Wonton@reddit
Hard to deny the leap in tech that was the c5 and c6. Specifically the blue devil.
EridemicLHS@reddit
damn, I didn't take a minute to take a step back and look across the portfolio. when you look at these cars today, you realize they've really been cooking.
citizenecodrive31@reddit
This is just the American arm of GM.
There are international cars that also come under the GM umbrella that are also worth mentioning.
Namely pretty much any performance Holden or HSV (Commodore, Maloo, GTS, Senator etc).
Also consider there are a few really sporty Vauxhalls and Opels
Longjumping_Pause925@reddit
I only found out GM sold Opel through Wikipedia, while making masks-produced car parts for an Opel application that we were still running through additional GM testing. You'd think Tier 1 auto suppliers would be the first to know of an acquisition, but nope, just rely on some engineer that points out the company changed hands come Monday morning at work.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Exactly. It hit me quite late too.
EridemicLHS@reddit
it's crazy cuz I'm an Audi guy with two Audis. Audi has just been doing the same shit with the same engines in the last century. There are incremental improvements of course but nothing really that exciting in the line up.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Ha ha. As an Audi owner that was exactly what I was contrasting against. They somehow got less interesting as this decade passed.
ToneThugsNHarmony@reddit
As a GM guy who worked for Audi during that time period, getting rid of the manual option was a big mistake.
JayBee58484@reddit
Undoubtedly, from the c6z all the way till now
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
If they didn't discontinue the Camaro, their portfolio would be insane.
Between the ridiculous C8 lineup, CT4V/5V Blackwing being far more engaging and fun versions of the M2-M4, Escalade V...
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Why ZR2/AT4X and Hummer EV aren't in the list ? These are awesome off roaders, aren't it ?
However, we really can't say GM now in golden year, but we can say GM in revive. They don't just make many exciting performance models for us, they're also in ahead in EV as well. However, their sales still needs more time to prove. Otherwise, we can't say they really in golden era again.
Shoddy_Expert8108@reddit
Hummer EV… seriously? It’s good off-road but it is objectively the least efficient EV on sale today with a hilarious price tag. The hummer EV does not belong on this list of incredible cars especially when considering most of them are bargains for the price.
DiscoLives4ever@reddit
Have you driven one? The Hummer is unlike anything else on the road. Yeah it is inefficient for an EV, but it has a massive battery to make up for it and still far more efficient than any ICE vehicle.
Even with Rivian and Cybertruck having slightly better 0-60 specs, the feel of the Hummer is complete silly fun along with incredible off-road ability
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
OP had the Escalade V in the list which is just a fast truck with a built in bed cap on the back
If that’s what we’re considering a legitimate performance vehicle, then I’d be willing to accept the Hummer EV on the list
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
Doesn't the ZR2 suffer from horrible upper control arms that crack and collapse? It's been waiting for a recall for some time last I remember. I wouldn't include it in the list.
Pretend-Rock8293@reddit
How do you define golden years?
Technically Toyota's best years (sales and profit) was when they never many any performance cars at all. So what's the metric here? If it's purely sales, performance vehicles, every vehicle OP listed is irrelevant. ICE Trucks, SUVs and crossovers is what GM sells at volume. ZR2/AT4x might be the only relevant variants because they are included in those variants I listed.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
See, I knew I forgot some cars.
IlIlIIllIIIllI@reddit
The thing that really would’ve pushed gm over the top is if they have a proper raptor/TRX competitor
bigloser42@reddit
I don't know that the Excalade V belongs on this list. It gets outclassed, quite badly in some cases, in every single performance metric by an X7 M60i that is somehow $50,000 cheaper.
The rest of the list is pretty fantastic though.
macgirthy@reddit
I think fords was better they had a real line up including trucks and cars. Like 2015 era, ford gt, raptor, gt350r, focus rs, fiesta st, focus st.
All gm had was a v8 with or without a supercharger.
Ihate_reddit_app@reddit
Ford has been killing it too, but I think the Z06 and ZR1 push GM above Ford.
People dogged GM for the simple "old" technology push rod V8, so GM says "watch this" and makes a flat plane DOHC engine that destroys Ford. Ford makes the cool 5.2L version making 526hp in the GT350 and GM releases a 5.5L making 670hp. Then GM says we are not done yet and comes out with a 1064hp TT version to blow the 760hp supercharged GT500 out of the water too.
The Raptor series is all cool, and the Raptor R is even more insane. I love what both companies are coming out with and hope it continues.
Soggy_Head_4889@reddit
...like 7 years later lol.
thewheelshuffler@reddit
I think Chevrolet released more gems in quantity whereas Ford dropped less frequently, but dropped outright bombs. Like the Ford GT caught everyone by surprise out of nowhere and is nearing hypercar territory. The GT350 and the GT500 were also crazy news when they dropped. But no one can deny that GM has been way more consistently delivering quality performance products.
TeriusRose@reddit
Depends on how you classify the GT MKIV, and if we're talking sheer numbers and laptimes or driving experience.
Practical-Courage812@reddit
As a huge Ford fan, I must say the new ZR1 being $150k is absolutely insane considering the Ford GT was going for like $400k new and now sell for a million. Idk how the hell GM is managing to put this kind of performance at that kind of price point. Hell, Fords top vehicle is now the Mustang GTD which begins at $300k.
TeriusRose@reddit
I thought they didn't announce the price for the ZR1 yet? I saw some estimates on C&D that it may be around 150k, but I didn't think GM had confirmed anything at this point.
Still, even if it is 200K-250K it's going to be a bargain relative to other cars with similar power figures and (presumably) lap times. If it's under 200K, then that will be absurd in terms of value per dollar.
Now that I think about it, I think the US can claim to have the lowest barrier to entry for 1,000+ HP factory cars of any major car manufacturing nation. Between the Plaid, ZR1, and Air Sapphire.
Ihate_reddit_app@reddit
I just was talking mostly engines. The TT 3.5 in that GT is cool, but there is something about flat plane V8's that is just so much cooler. The GM and Shelby ones are awesome.
Even though the new GT and the MKIV are really cool, it still seems off to me that they made them V6's only when the heritage of the cars were always a V8. No matter how much power they make.
Scoutron@reddit
Wait for the GTD vs ZR1, it will be closer than you’d think
macgirthy@reddit
GTD might be a dud if the ZR1 can move around the track. Yet to be seen tho, its likely going to be 4000lbs.
Scoutron@reddit
There’s just no way. The GT is 3800lbs. The GTD has an INTENSE amount of modification to the chassis and body panels. The weight distribution is going to be near 50/50 and the weight id be surprised if it was over 3600
Practical-Courage812@reddit
What's lost in this is that you can buy 2 ZR1s for the price of the GTD. Idk what kind of corners GM is going to cut to get this type of performance for that price, but hopefully it leads to Ford focusing on making "cheaper" performance cars to compete.
Scoutron@reddit
I don’t think you’ll be able to buy a ZR1 for under a quarter million to be completely honest
Practical-Courage812@reddit
I agree dealer markup will be absurd with it, but still GM claiming MSRP of $150k is crazy for something like that.
Scoutron@reddit
Oh if they could actually pull that off it would be insane. I’d be a GM guy haha
macgirthy@reddit
Talking about the ZR1. The c8z is already 3700lbs and they quoted the dry weight of the ZR1 being like 260lbs heavier than the c8z.
Scoutron@reddit
Oh jeez, that’s a hefty corvette
HackeSpitze901@reddit
By Larry Holt himself: "We've got 75kg (165lbs) we're trying to get out of it. But it'll be sort of GT500 type of weight" - https://youtu.be/s9FL7rTtPbw?t=605
Car and Driver measured a curb weight of 4171lbs for the GT500. Even if they get 165lbs out of it based on the GT500 figure, the GTD is still a 4000lbs car.
Scoutron@reddit
Interesting, I’ll have to look into it. For all the modifications they’ve done I’d have figured it’d be nice and low weight
bestselfnice@reddit
They don't compete. GTD is ~50% more, limited production, and you essentially have to be an influencer for Ford to allow you to buy one.
Scoutron@reddit
If we’re going off of those metrics then the GT500/350 don’t compete with the Z06/ZR1. The price points and rarity are completely different
bestselfnice@reddit
...they don't though? They were comparable to the SS 1LE and ZLE Camaros.
Scoutron@reddit
The guy I was originally responding to was the reason I made that point, he was comparing them to the mustangs
bestselfnice@reddit
Ah I see that now. Yeah if were ignoring price/market segment and just discussing engineering it makes sense to compare GT350 to Z06 to ZR1 to GTD.
macgirthy@reddit
Yea, without a doubt the ZR1 is going to be nuts. 1064HP, like a big F you to Dodge. Dodge 170 needs e85 to do that. ZR1 can do it with pump gas is crazy.
Also a 300+hp increase from the previous c7 ZR1? SHEEEESH
ConsistentFatigue@reddit
Fusion Sport, SHO, explorer ST, and I forgot which Lincoln sedan was 400hp.
BeingRightAmbassador@reddit
both mkz and conti had 400 hp/tq variants with the 3.0 ecoboost
dsonger20@reddit
Man if they still made the continental, that would be the car I buy in 10 years at 31. 400hp luxury American sedan. Absolute beast of a car.
bluedaytona392@reddit
My scat packs comin in to dust that dumb shit.
And put on a way better show.
F1_Geek@reddit
Ford made some amazing products around a decade ago and were a great bang for your buck, but them axing every single passenger car in favor of bloated crossovers, SUVs and trucks renders them irrelevant for me.
They also made the new Mustang madly overpriced.
Nero_Wolff@reddit
The GT350 non R was good value for money
F1_Geek@reddit
Exactly!
No_Skirt_6002@reddit
I'd argue GM has the LT4 supercharged V8 and it's variants, the LT1, the twin turbo 3.6 v6 in the ATS-V and CT4-V, the 5.5L LT6 and the new twin turbo 5.5L LT7, and the 4.2L Cadillac Blackwing
KyledKat@reddit
I don’t know that I’d call the GT350 or Focus RS “fully baked” when they had pretty infamous engine issues…
No_Skirt_6002@reddit
What I mean is that Ford developed a host of features exclusive only to those models. The Focus RS' high output Ecoboost and trick AWD system with a drift mode, or the GT350's flat-plane crank V8 and carbon fiber wheels, or the GT500s supercharged, cross-plane crank version of that engine and dual-clutch transmission. On the trucks, it's the new Raptor's coil-sprung rear end and factory 37" tires. Before the GT350 flat-plane cranks were ONLY on European exotic cars, and frankly it still is only used on supercars. The GT500 and the GTD are the only muscle cars I know with dual-clutch transmissions, a choice that caught me VERY off guard when it came out because the 10-speed is good enough as is. Before the Raptor and Braptor coil-sprung rear axles and 37" tires were unique to aftermarket builds. Ford introduced frankly exotic, highly advanced features to these cars only for these cars.
Whereas, for a while GM would just take an LS platform, supercharge it or increase it's displacement, and slap that in everything. While the LT4 is a perfectly good engine, and LS7 was actually pretty special, with it's dry sump and 7k redline, they shared these engines around between a number of vehicles, which is perfectly fine, it just made their vehicles seem just a little bit less "special".
Only recently has GM been adding on notable, exclusive features to their high performance vehicles, like the LT6 in the Z06, the LT7 in the ZR1, the 4.2 Blackwing in the CT6-V, the Corvette's dual clutch transmission, the E-Ray's E-AWD, the ZR2 model's Multimatic dampers and f/r lockers, the Bison models AEV armor from the factory, etc. etc.
It's these things that make me appreciate the effort involved in these performance cars.
ChuckoRuckus@reddit
Saying that the LT5 “at its core” is related to the same engine in a Silverado is pretty disingenuous. Are we supposed to pretend that the supercharged 5.2L Predator in the GT500 isn’t related to a F150 Coyote? Or that the TT v6 in the $1+ million GT isn’t related to what’s found in a F150?
It should also be noted that the flat plane 5.2L in the GT350 had issues baked in because it was derived from the Coyote (instead of a clean sheet design like the LT6). And that the engine in the Focus RS is essentially the same as what’s found in a 4 cylinder Mustang.
KangarooGuard2024@reddit
Focus RS was a flop. There are almost no Fiesta ST around because they were made of plastic and tin.
FruhBruh@reddit
2015 Ford had an enthusiast car at every price point, which we’ll never see again from the big 3
November87@reddit
Most of those are terrible
samurai1226@reddit
I think it's hard to compare since they had their own European division to develop the compact cars and US markets didn't even get the same cars.
macgirthy@reddit
Im talking about cars sold in US. I know we missed out on two door Fiesta RS and possibly others, but Ford seemed to have a NON-redundant line up unlike GM's v8 coupe/sedan offerings.
inconvention@reddit
Jamal Hameedi is an absolute legend.
FreeTheMarket@reddit
Porsche, Mercedes, and Ford should be considered too. I think it’s obvious but we should probably ignore the exotic brands.
AMG has put out a shit load of German muscle in so many chasis configurations with some of the best engines of the last decade. And they have also made some legit track weapons too in the later gen black series, the last gen GT series, and the current AMG One.
Ford had well regarded ST line during this period, the Focus RS, the Mustang GT/Mach1/GT500/GT350/Dark horse, Ford released the lemans winner Ford GT, and is about to release the GTD. I’m probably forgetting some.
And Porsche clears all competition. I’m not going to even write it out. The Macan Turbo alone is a revelation and that’s not even a sports car.
In the end I think Chevy slots behind AMG and Porsche.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Porsche sure, although the macan turbo is a weird example and I don’t believe it clears any of the above mentioned gm cars.
I’m not that sure of amg. The engines have been great for sure but not sure about chassis and handling apart from the upper specs of the amg gt’s.
FreeTheMarket@reddit
Honestly, i can get on board with Chevy over AMG. That shop has been mostly about muscle car performance rather than sporting.
DJBerryman@reddit
So basically American only models, they've been pushing rebadged daewoos in Australia for the last 8 years and that's about it. Only half decent thing has been the Colorado, which started out as a rebadged Isuzu with the 4JJ1
CryptoKingK@reddit
Problem is most of these hardly sold new. So you won't be getting any mint examples for 50% or more off. Other than maybe the C7/C8 corvette. Even used Camaro SS 1LE are going for new or higher than new prices. Almost all the Cadillacs will end up being destroyed and end up wrecked or on buy here pay here lots
LA-ncevance@reddit
A 2017 SS 1LE just sold for $25k on cars & bids. Prices have been dropping hard.
You can even get a ZL1 1LE for $65k.
dang_it_bobby93@reddit
Which is fantastic for me because I really want a ZL1 and if the prices keep dropping I can get one soon hopefully.
ReyneOfFire@reddit
This is wrong. That SS bid to 25k but was sold privately for an unknown price.
Also, said car was heavily modified which very undesirable on platforms like C&B so it is not representative of the market norm.
LA-ncevance@reddit
Different one. A stock California SS 1LE sold for $25.5k today
ReyneOfFire@reddit
Oops you're right.
dang_it_bobby93@reddit
Honestly since the 90s GM has had a ton of winners. If you just start from the 00s you have the Trans Am ws6, z/28 Camaro, GTO, G8, Sky/solstice redline/gxp, cobalt SS, SS, 5th Gen Z28 and ZL1, C5 Z06, C6 Z06 and ZR1, and Saturn ion redline. I know I'm missing some but GM has consistently had bangers in the performance department since I can remember hopefully they keep them coming for many more years.
puddud4@reddit
I think BMW had a better run from the 90s to mid 2000s
All of the GM cars you mentioned were insanely well reviewed. However in the real world many of them were compromised. For this to be a truly great run the sales would have to match the hype and they don't. Camaro sales were so bad they killed the car. The Cadillac sedans are probably next.
I think what really set BMW apart was that their M division made every car in the lineup better. By comparison, half of GM is still dogshit.
Ihate_reddit_app@reddit
The Camaro and Cadillac sedans have always had the same problem. GM absolutely refuses to market them and they are too hardcore for your average consumer.
This is where Ford continuously gets it right with the Mustang. They advertise it everywhere and all of the reviews say it's the easiest to drive, but that the Camaro is a better sports car.
The M division is kind of cheating in the fact that BMW basically just makes the same car in multiple different sizes and then the M team gets to have fun with all of them. GM tried to copy BMW with the Cadillac V trims with mild success. They were all great cars, but people just don't know what they are.
It doesn't help now that M and V are both so diluted. If you saw either of them on a car in the 2000's, you knew it was the top of the line and fast, now they just throw the badge on anything. BMW has gotten really bad with that.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
I was looking at the M3 for a bit, but honestly, the 4V Blackwing is starting to really take my interest.
Looks a hell of a lot better, is only slightly smaller, pretty much matches the performance, has pretty similar features unless you spend a lot on options with the M3. And has far far superior steering feel and an absolutely incredible manual transmission that the M3 doesn't even come close to matching. It even has tons of performance tech that the M3 doesn't get like no lift shifting, magneride suspension, etc.
All of that and it starts like $10k under the M3...
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
I think the price difference is 15k now.
Also apart from the base seats you can live with most of the things on the base blackwing.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Didn’t sell well, sure. Compromised? In what way?
I do agree with your bmw 90s to mid 2000s part of your comment though. That was a great era for bmw.
puddud4@reddit
This is a winner takes all world. In that 90s-00s era of BMW pretty much everything they released was undeniable and iconic. Everyone knew that the 3-series and 5-series were the best in their class. Handling, styling, interior, speed. These cars did it all and they did it better than anyone else. There were so few reasons to say no to BMWs.
With the cars you listed many are good but not a lot of them are the best. And the ones that are the best still have you saying "it's great but ....". Reddit isn't going to like this but many of those buts come vanity.
All of the Camaros are too harsh and have terrible visibility. The SS looks like a Malibu. Cadillac is an old person's brand. Corvette stereotypes have a pretty strong presence even among non car people.
From your list I feel like the Corvettes are the most iconic. I'm really glad it exist and I think buying a Corvette is an easy decision.
7/10 are picking a Mustang over the Camaro
Even though they drive worse 9/10 people are picking an M3 or M5 over the Cadillacs
Escalade V is nothing to sneeze at but an Urus and G63 are the cars people really want from that segment
AguaIguana@reddit
This post is about performance. Nothing you said argues against why the competitors are better at that. All you alluded to was the average person wanting comfort over performance. The Camaro having worse visibility than the Mustang doesn't change the fact that the 6th gen Camaro at its core is a far better platform than the Mustang.
puddud4@reddit
This post isn't talking about performance. There's no mention of 0 to 60 times, handling, horsepower or any of that. But since you bring it up I'll throw you my rant.
Camaros are the quintessential example of everything wrong with sports cars. I want a faster car, okay bigger engine. Bigger engine, okay now I need bigger tires. Bigger tires, now for bigger brakes. Oh shit this car is 4,000 pounds, time for more power. Ope, back to bigger brakes and tires and on and on.
Stack all of these Band-Aid solutions and you get a Camaro. It may perform but it'll be unwieldy and terrifying the entire time.
ReyneOfFire@reddit
Have you ever tracked a Camaro or are you just talking out your ass? Because I have, and its the exact opposite of what you say. In fact, I'd say its one of the easiest "fast" cars to drive.
bluedaytona392@reddit
Sure. On a track (hopefully that you know already).
In the real world, it's incredibly uncomfortable when you can only see 50% of what you are used to. That's a fact and a big part of why they never hit their sales numbers.
ReyneOfFire@reddit
You aren't wrong but that has absolutely nothing to do with what the comment I'm replying to is talking about.
Jamaican_Dynamite@reddit
Uh huh.
That's great.
Yes.
Now you're getting it.
JayBee58484@reddit
Not even remotely, been tracking my ZLE for a little over 4 years now. Probably one of the most stable platforms I've personally driven on track that wasn't 200k+ and I can still turns laps quicker than far more expensive cars.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Is GM’s last 10 years the greatest run of performance cars?
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Again, clearly someone who’s actually not driven or even experienced most of these cars but parrots stereotypes about these cars.
Anyone who calls a Camaro with magnaride harsh has never actually been in one. It rides better than my daily drivers.
JayBee58484@reddit
It usually is just people who've got zero on track experience from what I've noticed
cannedrex2406@reddit
I think 2005 is stretching it with the hate the E60 and E63 got
Plus they had pretty weak car like the 1st gen X3 and E46 Compact.
However if you said from 1985 to 2001, I'd definitely agree
puddud4@reddit
This is a winner takes all world. In that 90s-00s era of BMW pretty much everything they released was undeniable and iconic. Everyone knew that the 3-series and 5-series were the best in their class. Handling, styling, interior, speed. These cars did it all and they did it better than anyone else. There were so few reasons to say no to BMWs.
With the cars you listed many are good but not a lot of them are the best. And the ones that are the best still have you saying "it's great but ....". Reddit isn't going to like this but many of those buts come vanity.
All of the Camaros are too harsh and have terrible visibility. The SS looks like a Malibu. Cadillac is an old person's brand. Corvette stereotypes have a pretty strong presence even among non car people.
From your list I feel like the Corvettes is the most iconic. It always has been. I'm really glad it exist and I think buying a Corvette is an easy decision.
7/10 are picking a Mustang over the Camaro
Even though they drive worse 9/10 people are picking an M3 or M5 over the Cadillacs
Escalade V is nothing to sneeze at but an Urus and G63 are the cars people really want from that segment
ttltaway@reddit
GM waited until no one cared about performance cars anymore to start making them.
F1_Geek@reddit
I'd blame GM's "shittiness" on management, not the engineers. Had the engineers been responsible for the other cars that are objectively "shitty", they'd be miles better.
As an aside, I still think BMW is doing well. The 2/3/4/5 (the G30, not the new one)/X3/X4/X5 are very good cars with the B58/xDrive/ZF8 combo.
iSlacker@reddit
If I had the money I'd have a CT4VBW daily and C6Z toy, so yeah, probably.
snipeerz85@reddit
ct5-v cadi
defenestr8tor@reddit
I read GM's last 10 years as GM's last 10 years.
PubliusDeLaMancha@reddit
For sure, such a shame it happened to coincide with the death of cars
Vhozite@reddit
Damn this post makes me realize I’m a card carrying GM hater. If you dropped 100k in my lap I wouldn’t buy anything off this list.
fuck_the_mods@reddit
literally pick any 10 years for Porsche and it's not even close.
Mike15321@reddit
Doesn't do anything for me personally, but Hummer EV should definitely be on the list too.
I agree with you though. GM has been killing it.
KangarooGuard2024@reddit
Yes. I’m not even a GM fan but they have made some amazing cars and I agree with you.
F-18EBestHornet@reddit
GM got serious when they started getting closer to Pratt Miller Oshkosh for development of the Corvette. I think winning Le mans in 2023 really helped then realize
NoctD@reddit
Counterpoint... Camaro is dead now, C8 lacks a manual transmission, the CT4-V/CT5-V sales numbers are small so no one is rushing out to buy these.
F-18EBestHornet@reddit
C8 isn't a manual for a reason. Old ass outdated technology. Learn to use paddles or adapt to an automatic.
AnnonymousPenguin_@reddit
Solid lineup, only issue is that they’re made by GM
olov244@reddit
they were just overpriced imo
1988rx7T2@reddit
20 years ago they had most of the same cars. CTSV, STSV, XLRV, GTO, Camaro had ended production, various corvettes, sky and solstice red line.
shartsmell@reddit
No.
I_1234@reddit
Almost all of those are on an aging Mercedes platform, pretty remarkable
GeoffKingOfBiscuits@reddit
Source?
EasyPeezyATC@reddit
I'd say yes, but I may be slightly biased.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Definitely not quite as good in terms of quantity and capability, but I'd put honda in the 90s and early 00s up there as well. S2000, NSX, EK9 CTR, and DC2 ITR.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
It’s hard to call the c7 and c8 just 2 versions of the same car. So much has changed between them that they’re basically ground up platforms.
Ct4= ats is the only one I would kinda agree with. In the case of the blackwings though the ct4 is nearly 10 secs faster on lightning lap than the ats-v so it’s still hard to say it’s the same car.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I didn’t say that they were the same car, just the same model, which they are.
Absolutely generational leap in performance but you’d hope so considering it’s a new generation of the same model.
Few_Highlight1114@reddit
What the fuck am I reading? lol.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They are both corvettes, it is one model line. Once again, I did not say they are the same car, they different generations of the same model line.
E,g, ford made the dark horse, GT500, GT350R, GT, s550 mach 1, PP2, but they are all mustangs, they are all different generations and variants of the same model line.
Few_Highlight1114@reddit
Honda brain lmao
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I still don't get where I said the C8 & C7 were the same car ...
Few_Highlight1114@reddit
honda brain
StanknBeans@reddit
Pretty much all the Japanese manufacturers peaked in the 90s before Japan's economy hit hard times.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Still mourning the loss of the V10 & V8 NSX that never came to be.
StanknBeans@reddit
I just wish I could find a nice, cheap CRX like the old days. I miss that go kart.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
It's nowhere near as good as the CRX, but I still feel the manual CR-Z's are underrated cars. If you have the space you can k-swap or supercharge them too (they offered it supercharged from the factory as well, but they are extremely rare).
Definitely not the same experience but for 5-6k its some good efficient fun
SignificanceFar4204@reddit
Very cool list of cars, point extremely well made
Defiant-Diver-6041@reddit
I know it's far from a production car, but I have to mention the Cadillac V-Series.R
bindermichi@reddit
You‘re overlooking that GM overall sales have been declining over the last 25 years. Whatever they made in low volume cars could not mask the decline of their mass production lineup.
No_Skirt_6002@reddit
You're forgetting the 1LE versions or the 4-cylinder, V6, and ZL1 Camaro, as well as just the normal Camaro platform in general- not many muscle cars that can lap the 'Ring faster than a Ferrari 488 GTB with more horsepower.
As well as GM's ZR2 versions of their trucks, those multimatic shocks are gamechangers, as are the front and rear locking diffs and collaborating with AEV on a factory-armored overland truck.
And on a side note, not GM's performance division, but the amount of effort GM has put into diesel in the last couple of years when everyone else is staying away is admirable. The 2.8 duramax Colorado, the 3.0 duramax 1500 trucks and SUVs, hell the duramax Escalade, though it seemed to have no real reason to exist lol. Even if they aren't making the Colorado, Canyon, and the Escalade diesels anymore, they seem to have a hit on their hands with the 3.0- decent power, amazing torque, great fuel economy. I remember in 2019 a lot of folks thought we'd be having a diesel light-duty renaissance with the diesel F150, Ram 1500, Nissan Titan, and the Silverado. There were even rumors of Toyota putting a diesel in the Tundra. Now, 5 years later, the Silverado is all that's left.
Congrats to GM engineers
QuickCharisma15@reddit
Don’t forget the diesel Equinox and diesel Cruze! They are super rare cars. I drove a manual diesel Cruze hatchback for a week as a rental and I liked it.
tclark2006@reddit
I'd add Focus RS as well to the list of good cars.
ZephyrStudios686@reddit
the... Ford?
0mbreBlanc0@reddit
They've had a resurgence these past few years. Although I would say Pre-Recession GM was peak GM in terms of their performance division, it was a time when they made performance versions of anything and everything (FWD LS powered cars, HHR SS Panel). However, the past few models they have put out, especially from the C8 clan have been insane.
Deep-Ad2155@reddit
Slightly earlier but they released the turbo cobalt ss that held fastest fwd production car record and car and driver lightning lap for a decade
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
The 2004-2014 period would include the Cobalt SS and HHR SS, the early CTS-V's, the SSR, every performance variant of the Commodore from VY-early VF (including G8 and VXR8), 3 years of Monaro (including Pontiac and Vauxhall), two separate Astra GRCs, the Corsa GRC, the last year of C5 to the first of C7, the STS-V, the Monte Carlo SS, the 5th gen Camaro and probably a lot I've missed. GM absolutely cooked before the GFC. I'm not saying they always cooked well (SSR) or profitably (Zeta platform) but man did they do a lot of dishes.
MisterLicious@reddit
And the Fastest FWD Nurburgring lap time for almost as long. The Cobalt SS turbos are criminally underrated.
goodcase@reddit
No lift shift in a cobalt makes me so happy.
OwnWillingness5889@reddit
Damn. It really puts it in perspective when you look at Ford and Dodge.
Ford: Coyote V8, Mustang, GT350, GT500, Mach 1, Ford GT Ecoboost.
Dodge: Challenger and Charger 392, Hellcat, and Demon.
Dodge could have made a PacifiCAT, but alas.
Pliskin_Hayter@reddit
Did you forget about the Viper????
OwnWillingness5889@reddit
I did forget about the Viper, but you seem really worked up. Go get a massage or something my guy
Pliskin_Hayter@reddit
Seems like I touched a nerve by pointing out how much worse Ford is than the other two.
OwnWillingness5889@reddit
Sounds a bit biased coming from a guy that owns a C7. And an auto one, too 😂
Pliskin_Hayter@reddit
Facts are facts. Better than your shoelace express buddy lmfao
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Actually to really put it in context you need to compare with Audi, Mercedes Benz, Toyota and Honda.
Fords actually been quite good compared to the rest.
OwnWillingness5889@reddit
How do you like your blackwing? I have been considering an ATS-V.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
It’s been great- highly recommend. The ats-v would be a great buy in the used market. See if you can stretch to a blackwing though- used ones are starting to show in the 50k range.
OwnWillingness5889@reddit
Did you cross shop the two? I have heard that the ATS handles a bit better and is a bit more raw. The CT4 has better materials and creature comforts of course.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Wanted a new car/something with warranty. So didn’t really cross shop it.
The blackwing is nearly 6 seconds faster a lap at VIR according to car and driver though, if that counts for anything.
b00st3d@reddit
Many people: “GM products are shit”
Also GM:
varcas@reddit
Yes I really love my Traverse
Rodux_@reddit
Tell me you're american without telling me you're american
MixedMatt@reddit
Really the only thing GM has missed was a real good inline 4 performance engine. The v8 and v6 has been on lock pretty well
ProfessorCaptain@reddit
Nooo!! GM bad!!
CloudsTasteGeometric@reddit
Honestly? Yes.
But we liked to rag on them because they refused to revive Pontiac or make smaller sports cars like the Solstice or Fiero after the market crash. I think we look at classic GM as better for enthusiast cars simply due to the variety. But when you look at the performance numbers, you can't deny that the past 10 years were a fantastic run.
RIP Camaro.
komeau@reddit
I just wish they had kept the Pontiac name just for the Firebird/Trans Am. What could have been.
jondes99@reddit
Interesting how this follows killing 5 brands and getting a large infusion of taxpayer money. While you can’t take anything away from OP’s list, I wonder how it’s going to contribute to long-term health.
yawetag1869@reddit
I am and have always been a huge German car fanboy and I have holy owned German cars since high school.
The current GM line up will probably break that streak. I don’t see how I can stay alive on this earth for the next 5-10 years and not purchase a CTV 5 black wing with a manual transmission or a Z06 corvette. They are such special cars that are very well priced.
If the c8 had a manual, I’d already own one
Anonasty@reddit
Maybe in the US but nowhere outside of it.
mortalcrawad66@reddit
You also have all the racing they have done, and stuff like ZZ632
JediKnightaa@reddit
Let's go through motorsports accomplishment in the racecars
NASCAR 6th, 7th gen Cup Cars
NASCAR XFinity Car
NASCAR Truck Cars
IMSA Corvette DP
IMSA Cadillac DPi
LMDH Cadillac Prototype
Garage 56 Camaro NASCAR
Chevrolet Camaro GT3, GT4
Chevrolet Corvette C7.R
Chevrolet Corvette C8.R, C8 Z06 GT3
Chevrolet Cruze Touring Car (WTCC)
Hummer EV Extreme E
Chevrolet Camaro V8 Supercars
NHRA Drag Cars (Too many to list)
Indycar Engine Development for Indy
Chevrolet DAKAR Team
Team Chevy Trophy Trucks
Also Formula E but those are more private than factory backed
When looking at it at a whole GM is one of the most diverse in Motorsports
ZephyrStudios686@reddit
I exclusively call that engine the "632 Big Dick"
ChasedWarrior@reddit
Gm can get the handling and performance done right. They can't get reliability, durability or even the quality right. I've read about Blackwing engines failing (including one tested by Car and Driver magazine) and their interior are shit, CD compares a Cadillac interior to that of a Chevy Malibu. Ouch!
So out of the showroom they are great cars. But over time they quickly turn to crap.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
This is the problem when you blindly parrot stereotypes.
The small block v8 reliability, durability is legendary and you’re equating one failure with the reliability of a legendary engine family.
The interior quality of my ct4 blackwing is better than the rs3. Like leagues better, better materials, less rattles and actually more luxury features. They cost exactly the same.
ChasedWarrior@reddit
Yeah I'm gonna believe what a respected car magazine says. Not you just because you like your car.
G80_M3@reddit
The CTS-V and ATS-V were both crap.
XxJabba666xX@reddit
L take
G80_M3@reddit
Oh yes that’s why no one bought them.
viperlemondemon@reddit
I want to argue so bad but with the zr1 and caddy kinda hard to
kilertree@reddit
I think Dodge is also in the conversation. The Dodge Viper ACR is still the fastest Stick.
PoopSlinger23@reddit
Too bad their lineup of affordable everyday cars is junk
imjoeking69@reddit
The new trax and trailblazer are genuinely great cars for the price. Same with the Buick variant. And the bolt is the best EV in the price range by a long shot
ChasedWarrior@reddit
Good cars in search of an engine. Way too underpowered
Chrodesk@reddit
Id argue most of those cars are just boats with V8s... may as well crown Dodge for doing the same.
There was no well rounded package in the cadillac lineup that could hold a handle to anything BMW M or Benz AMG put out.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
😂
ignorant_kiwi@reddit
No bro. GM is a shart and a burp away from another bankruptcy dude!
8rings_86k@reddit
Don’t forget about the CT6-V with the real blackwing V8. I want a CT6 plp 4.2 so bad but they’re incredibly rare.
huge_hefner@reddit
GM canceling the CT6 feels almost criminal, even though I fully understand why they did it from a business perspective. I don’t think any modern “attainable” luxury car has the road presence that Cadillac achieved with the CT6, especially after the facelift.
nomptonite@reddit
It’s a shame it didn’t get put into more cars. Wanted to see if the GM version of a hot-v TT v8 could stand up to the AMG version.
Aftershok@reddit
I don’t know if this is controversial, but the Cobalt SS (turbocharged) might deserve a spot up there. Super underrated overall, but it is/was an incredible underdog performance car in its category.
Still holds up today, but it was a monster when it was new. C&D lapped it at VIR faster than the then-new STI, EvoX, IS-F and S2k CR. Shame about every other part of it that wasn’t the drivetrain, steering, brakes, etc., though. Would still be a fun project car today.
halotechnology@reddit
I wanted one soo bad for the last 10 years and I promised my self I will buy one somebody ( I own a cobalt LT ) however now I am buying Camaro Turbo 1LE
Can't wait
Cautionnodiving1@reddit
Yes. Remember the Cadillac CTS-V station wagon? Absolute badass. I think someday it’ll rank up there with the Buick Regal Grand National for collectability.
MisterLicious@reddit
Someday? Have you priced one lately? To wit, you can buy a clean Grand National cheaper than you can buy a clean CTS-V Wagon with a stick shift.
Cautionnodiving1@reddit
I’ve been into cars since I was a grade school kid in the 80s. I have a tough time defining what a performance car even means these days. The run of the mill model 3 accelerates faster than most “performance” cars. I think lap times, acceleration, and skid pad performance? It is a wonderful time to be a gear-head, that’s for sure.
Cautionnodiving1@reddit
Holy crap you’re right.
MaliciousMilk@reddit
I'd like to see them reclaim that FWD Nurburgring record, but I doubt it will happen. Imo though GM performance has always been good at their thing, especially when allowed by the higher ups to do exactly what they want.
HelloYouSuck@reddit
New 1k horsepower vette says it’s still going
Paper_Horror@reddit
Sure. Leave it to GM in transforming one of the most reliable V8 engine to the least reliable V8.
killshelter@reddit
It’s cool that GM won’t be limiting production on the ZR1 this gen. The C7 ZR1 still sells for like $165k+ since they only made them in the final model year and very limited production.
I’m sure the starting price for the C8 ZR1 will be about $180k or so, and with dealer markups will sell for $250k or more, but hopefully high production numbers will mean we can see these on the roads. I still don’t see Z06’s anywhere and Stingrays are even kinda rare on the roads.
spdcrzy@reddit
Their new truck engine is also an absolute BEAST. Don't forget: all of Chevy's best and most reliable engines have both truck and race DNA in them - and now you can add diesel DNA to that with the 2.7L. I just test drove a CT4-V the other day and with PTM and V-Mode, I'm fairly certain HCI, exhaust, better cooling, and a tune could easily turn the 325hp and 380lb-ft up to well over 450/450 at the wheels.
This engine is built to last 100K miles at 430 lb-ft, which means it's also incredibly overbuilt and can sustain stupid amounts of power as long as your tune is conservative for the potential it has. The entire block is built for compression so boost won't kill it, and the crank is either forged or billet steel which has to be able to handle WOT pulling a giant load. A car drivetrain poses zero issues.
PurpleSausage77@reddit
Even some of their regular cars aren’t bad. I rented a Sonic RS 1.4T and it was like a “warm hatch”. Was probably the funnest option the rental company had for the twisty roads I was driving. That 1.4T are known to be pieces of garbage though, good thing it was just a rental.
Another surprise was just a 2016+ Camaro V6 with the 8spd auto. Under 3500lbs budget sports car right there. Alpha platform. That 3.6 is amazing - 335hp yet still easily gets 30mpg on regular fuel so I’m strongly considering an Alpha platform GM.
Caqtus95@reddit
Sharing the internet with Americans is exhausting sometimes.
Viperlite@reddit
I’ve been driving CTS-Vs since they launched 20 years ago. I definitely have been watching all those other listed models take off. Their introductions have been some of my favorite turntables at the auto shows over the years.
Dead_Prezident@reddit
I think GM missed the mark on their smaller car entries and SUVs, they could've put out a sporty hot hatch, a beefed up Tahoe or Siverado with ZR1 upgrades, a 350hp awd hatch or compact.
Ford did the Focus and Fiestas, Raptor, Ram with the TRX. I like to see more special performance cars before we full switch to EVs, at least give hybrid performance a chance, the best of both worlds
F1_Geek@reddit
As a Toyota guy, I'd have to say it's one of the greatest stretches of building GOOD performance cars that are also pretty reliable given how batshit insane they are. When GM allows their engineers to have free-reign over the product and not ass-backwards bean counters or product managers, their godlike engineers can really craft some amazing enthusiast cars. They're passionate as hell and really care about what they're building.
It's a good time to be a GM fan, but it's an even better time to be a car guy right now.
toilet_ipad_00022@reddit
I guess I don't consider it that cool to build a capable car that doesn't sell and gets discontinued.
spiketeam@reddit (OP)
Since when did sales become a metric of how good a performance car is?
toilet_ipad_00022@reddit
Since sales are the determining factor for whether a car can continue to be produced or not.
I just don't understand patting GM on the back for driving the Camaro into the ground. Remember when they polled people who already owned one on its visibility? They couldn't even do market research correctly.
thememeconnoisseurig@reddit
I'd argue the reason they don't sell is because they're capable. Fan service cars aren't popular with the consumers, it's long been a problem on r/cars that the cars WE like the public hates.
AFB27@reddit
Without a doubt. The 6th Gen ZL1 opened my eyes. The C7 Z06 made me realize that they aren't playing around.
The C8? In my eyes, best American car ever made. Over the new Ford GT too yes.