Are the SU-30MKA & MIG29M compatible for chinese modernization ?
Posted by Bentayfour@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 8 comments
Can the Algerian airforce SU30s aaand MIG29s get a chinese upgrade, SU-30 to something similar to J-16 spec and MIG-29 to J-10C spec ?
China have extensively worked on the flanker platform and on the MIG29 RD33(93) engines on the JF-17 program.
Upgrade of Engines, Avionics, Radar, armament.
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WS-10 to the SU-30, WS-13/21 to the MIG-29.
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AESA GaN radar (Klj type), modern avionics and DAS suite.
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RCS reduction using RAM material and Radar blockers, plus weight reduction if possible.
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chinese missile compatiblity especially BVRAAM family of PL missiles.
Pequiguy@reddit
nice images
Aerospaceoomfie@reddit
Highly unlikely that China would upgrade any foreign models to the same spec as their premier non-stealth fighter in service with the PLAAF. Either way, China operates the Su-30 as well, the Su-30MKK and I think the Su-30MK2 as well. However I'm unsure how superior these are to the Su-30MKA. Either way, it's possible for China to offer electronics and avionics upgrades to such models, as well as weapons integration.
MiG-29 modernization is questionable. For one, China doesn't have experience with the model as a whole and the Fulcrum is kind of dead in the water anyway, ignoring the highly upgraded but prototype only MiG-35 and the comparatively rare MiG-29M2. At this point you may as well buy the JF-17/FC-1 to replace the MiGs in service. J-10C may end up being to expensive for Algeria and the JF-17 offers several of the benefits at a lower cost.
There is little benefit in applying the RAM coating to aircraft that haven't used extensive RAM in their airframe construction. When we look at the stealthy, late 4th generation fighters like the Eurofighter, Rafale, F/A-18E/F, Su-35 and J-16, you'll notice that they incorporate large amounts of composites in their construction. That makes them lighter, stiffer but also helps with radar detection. However, and I might be wrong here, I think only the J-16 uses a dedicated RAM coating on top of that. Either way, it raises the price and why would a country like Algeria need such a quality. And if it's needed, might as well wait like 5 years and place an order for the J-31 or Su-75.
As for radar blockers, retrofitting these to existing airframes isn't a good idea nor feasible without extensive modifications. When we look at aircraft that use them, like the F-117, Su-57, RQ-170 you'll come to the conclusion that these aircraft were designed with these structures from the relative beginning. They're an integral part and not simply slapped on or retrofitted. And again, might as well buy a proper stealth aircraft at that point.
Bentayfour@reddit (OP)
So it's going to be Mig29 to Mig35.
Su30 to SU-30SM2 with chinese avionics & weaponry.
And a small batch of J-10C till proper 5th gen fighter would be available for sale like J-31/su-57/su-75.
Latter-Bar-8927@reddit
If you gots the cash, Pooh Bear gots the goods.
Upgrading engines and avionics on an existing airframe is always technically possible, with the appropriate amount of time, manpower, and money.
RCS absorbing materials, at least those that don’t require you to be in a climate controlled hangar 23 hours a day, are kind of a black art and China doesn’t have them.
Either way spraying some magic gray paint won’t do much given the fundamental un-stealthy geometry of the airframe. Exposed engine inlets, right angles at the vertical stabs, right angles at the engine inlets, external pylons, etc.
Bentayfour@reddit (OP)
Yeah It requires funding or they won't scratch their heads to deal with a plane they don't own.
Thanks for this info, TIL.
PLAA and PLA Watchers thought of it to have a very small rcs sub 1m category in the same class of the Rafale and Typhoon, I know that the frame wasn't designed to be stealthy in the first place but to be maneuverable. However China worked so much on the platform for decades no and seem to have trust in it and deployed alot in the eastern cost they even have a dedicated EW version of it.
Do you think it's LO capability is exaggerated ? What are the rough estimates of it's RCS and LO capabilities in your opinion? And how does it compare to planes like F-15, Typhoon, Rafale ?
Thanks for your answer sir and sharing your points.
Latter-Bar-8927@reddit
Technically a single value for RCS is deceptive marketing and useless without specifying the aspect angle and frequency.
In terms of what matters for a fighter: frontal RCS from +/- 30 degrees off the nose against an X-band 10 MW class radar, like those carried by most modern interceptors, none of your examples are sufficiently stealthy enough to replace a true 5th gen fighter. You can add Superhornet and F-15EX to that list. Slapping some RAM and composite materials is all you can do to upgrade an existing airframe. Doing such modifications without changing the airframe geometry is just a sales and marketing strategy.
Bentayfour@reddit (OP)
If it's not 5th gen than it's not stealth I got it 👍
Aerospaceoomfie@reddit
That's purely false. Sweetheart, we're not in the 1980s anymore were something was required because of how sensitive RAM coatings used to be. You can park most jets with RAM coating in the nevada desert or siberian tundra just fine. Repeated heating cycles will lead to cracks and chips though, many F-22s with that signs of wear.
Aside from that RAM coating (as use of RAM in fuselage construction is much more widespread since the late 4th Generation of fighters) can even be found on the likes of the F-16 (I think it's called Have Glass V?) and obviously J-16 and plenty others too. The J-20 is fully coated and doesn't require climate controlled hangars like the B-2.
Btw: you will need climate controlled environments when you apply such coatings though. For example Russia expanded one of their plants with a whole new facility for that, I think that was 2 years ago?