WHY isn't Traction Control OFF by default?

Posted by l008com@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 28 comments

Why isn't traction control OFF by default, where it would only turns on when you push the button specifically to turn it on? Stability control, the feature that prevents/recovers from fishtailing, thats another story. That feature has saved my car more than once over the years. Once you get a little sideways, things can go really bad really fast. Having the computer recover instantly is great. And this feature CAN be turned off usually, for times when you want to screw around a little bit. But then there's traction control. This feature is almost entirely useless. It causes you to GET stuck more often then it helps you get UNSTUCK. The first thing you do when you are stuck, is turn off traction control. Trying to accelerate quickly for either legit or mischievous reasons? A little too much umph and traction control is there to ruin your day! I really hate this feature! BUT if TC was off by default, that would totally solve the problem. It would still be there for the once in a blue moon situation where it might actually help you. But it's GONE the rest of the time. So why don't they make them this way? Why is TC always on by default?

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28 Comments

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a_rogue_planet@reddit

Uh..... Because they're the SAME SYSTEM doing the SAME THING.

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l008com@reddit (OP)

They may be two parts of the same greater system but they're clearly NOT the same thing.

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a_rogue_planet@reddit

What exactly is the functional difference between traction control and stability control? If your car has lost stability, has it not also lost traction? And if the car has lost traction, has it not also become unstable? I see no functional difference. The computer is going to deal with the situation the exact same way with the exact same tools. It's going to manipulate the brakes and throttle to achieve better traction. Some systems have more authority, such as applying individual brakes or manipulating drivetrain differential clutches to vector power, but in the end they're all doing the exact same thing.

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Launch_Zealot@reddit

I don’t know how it’s actually mechanized, but it’s easy to imagine that one is to mitigate wheelspin under power and the other is meant to keep oversteer slip angles within some limit. Those goals can have some overlap but they aren’t necessarily the same thing.

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a_rogue_planet@reddit

It's a distinction with no real difference. You can claim there is, but losing traction is losing traction. It doesn't become something objectively different because you feel like it should.

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Launch_Zealot@reddit

I’m pretty sure there’s a distinction between reducing wheel slip and mitigating a car’s yaw moment, but I’ll defer to any embedded engineers in the sub who actually work on these systems.

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TinyCarz@reddit

Hello dats me. They are different but not as different as you put it. They should be lumped together.

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Launch_Zealot@reddit

Ok, thanks for chiming in! Would you say that they should be lumped together because stability control includes a traction control component, or because they’re indistinguishable?

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TinyCarz@reddit

My big comment covers it. When TC is on ESC is easier and smoother. ESC with no TC is going to just be abrupt and really just hammer on dynamic event. TC with no ESC is going to keep the overall vehicle slip down and reduce overall uncontrolled energy. Likely not need esc or make the event more recoverable. They are distinguishable, but there’s very cases you’d want one without the other and they both are helpful and crucial functions.

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a_rogue_planet@reddit

What's wheel spin? 1 or 2 wheels moving out of time with others? Yeah... That's exactly what it is to a computer. And to virtually every AWD system on the planet, they detect and handle the problem the same way.

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Launch_Zealot@reddit

Just Google it. They’re different functions with different inputs, outputs, and relationships between them. On some cars they can be individually disabled. That’s a pretty clear distinction.

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a_rogue_planet@reddit

Ok...... And they're the exact same system on a whole bunch of cars. Are you going to make a point?

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Launch_Zealot@reddit

Don’t be obstinate. I already explained they’re literally different functions. At most a manufacturer may tie them together by putting a traction control subfunction within a stability control system or perhaps offer a disable that disables both. However they are absolutely *not* the exact same thing as you claimed. The Venn diagram is not a unity.

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TinyCarz@reddit

TCS does not get you stuck more than it helps. It Just doesn’t. Your entitled to your opinion but I strongly disagree. I am sorry you feel it ruins your day but it’s a very useful feature for basically everyone else. It’s not perfect by any means but it’s good enough for it to be standard on everything, proving that it’s negatives are vastly outweighed by its positives. a traction control system that is trying to maximize vehicle traction and forward propulsion might get you stuck in deep snow or deep mud because it’s trying to hold optimal slip for high mu which is too little for those surfaces. But a good traction control will learn the surface or you put the car in the proper drive mode. If you are using a car for its Unintended purpose it’s on you to turn off TC for use in its intended purpose. Now there’s less than 1% of time when a car is being used for its intended purpose (driving in deep snow. And that’s a debatable intended purpose) and it would be in better to have TC off. The other 99.999% of the time TC is going to help. TCS job is to give the driver the maximum forward traction and propulsion. Trying to accelerate too quickly and it steps in? You exceeded the traction of your tires and it’s bringing you back down to optimal slip and optimal traction, thus making you go faster. On most surfaces 8% slip is faster than your 25% slip. It’s making you go faster. You’ve asked the car to go fast with your foot and it’s obliging you. And being on all time it will do this on every surface. The proper amount of surface torque depends on the surface. So wether your on ice, snow, gravel, grass, wet asphalt, or dry asphalt you just need to apply the gas. Without out it the drivers throttle input would need to vary and adjust for every surface. So have it on by default for the 99% of the time and ability to turn off for the 1%. Not the other way around. Especially when the other 1% is a usually a dead stop and not likely to cause instability. Now onto the ESC TCS interaction. ESC job is to limit yaw/slip/oversteer/understeer. Number one cause of any of those? Breaking traction and exceeding the limit of your tires. There’s a circle of forces on a tire and when you exceed all of the forces with longitude slip you lose your lateral grip. Now that tire cannot keep you straight without lateral grip and your sideways and now it’s ESCs job to stop a spin. But if TC is on limiting you to your limits of longitudinal grip you will have some lateral grip too. Thus preventing or making it easier for ESC and a lesser intervention. And a more controlled event start to finish. Want to turn off ESC for some fun you have to turn TC off to so you can break that grip. That’s why they are connected. If you believe it’s only useful once in a blue moon, your fundamentally mistaken but that would dictate it being off by default. But considering turning it off is only useful once in a blue moon, that dictates it being on by default. If you feel it impacting your daily drive, you are regularly exceeding the grip of car and tires. Hope this helps

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MUTHER-David7@reddit

Listen to this scam: I HATE TC. In my Chevrolet, I can turn it off when I need to, and yes, it is only on by default. But I have a 21 Toyota Corolla, and I turned off the traction control, and then it told me I need to go to the dealer to turn it back on, and it will be 100 or something for them to turn it back on. I asked the service writer to give me what he's smoking. It also turned off that fucking annoying lane change beeping. So I never turned it back on. I know how to drive, and I don't need an electronic babysitter.

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bridgetroll2@reddit

Your full of it, or your car is broken. TC turns back on by default every time you restart the car.

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MUTHER-David7@reddit

Wrong.

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l008com@reddit (OP)

But how will you manage driving in the snow in winter time, not getting stuck anymore because your traction control is always off? :D

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MUTHER-David7@reddit

Where I live, there is no snow, not ever. It's been over a year, and I don't miss it.

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JCDU@reddit

Because people who want the TC off are 0.1% of the use cases and it's far safer to have it on by default for the 99.9%. Also, your use case sounds like an off-road one talking about getting stuck, and I will say that the 4x4's I've driven with traction control are far better with it ON than OFF unless you're doing something really specific where you want to turn it off for some reason - again, for most people, they will be far better off with it ON by default.

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Cheap_Brilliant_5841@reddit

Because most people drive like normal human beings on normal roads, where traction control is a good safety feature.

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l008com@reddit (OP)

In what scenario is it a good safety feature? Specifically TC, not stability/sway control.

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Gatesy840@reddit

ESC won't work without a traction control system... just sayin...

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l008com@reddit (OP)

"ESC" meaning swap control? If so, then thats not true at all. Every car I've ever owned thats had both has let me turn off TC and leave sway controls on. And they work just fine to correct 'sway' while not ruining your traction.

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Gatesy840@reddit

Yes "sway control" or Electronic Stability Control. TC is still kicking in if ESC is currently active. TC is part of the ESC system along with the ABS. This is why you won't find a car with ESC and without TC and why it's on by default.

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Cheap_Brilliant_5841@reddit

In every scenario where it does intervene for normal people? If the car loses traction when granny takes off at the lights, for example. Or when one of the wheels loses grip for some reason. Seriously, most people aren’t driving off road or on a track. They need and want the car to behave docile.

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harley97797997@reddit

Most people are crap drivers. TC compensates for their lack of driving ability.

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Dedward5@reddit

Because it works for most people. One thing with TC in mild offroad is if the TC comes in just maintain steady throttle, don’t back off like you might to modulate wheel spin in a non TC vehicle.