Do you really have more take home pay in the USA?
Posted by Original-Storm-7593@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 389 comments
People always mention high taxes as a reason people in Europe have less money but is this really true?
Once you factor in that in the USA you need a car, pay health insurance, expensive college fees, property tax, if you have children need to cover maternity leave, expensive daycare, possible private school, then college tuition.
Once you factor all this in, unless you are earning over 400k a year I don’t believe you are better off in the USA.
Can someone please correct me if I’m wrong?
coldlightofday@reddit
I’m an American living in Europe so I’ve seen both. Simply put, if you are poor or lower middle class, you were probably better off being born in one of the nice Western European countries. Eastern or southern Europe, maybe not.
If you make above average income you are probably better off having been born in the U.S.
Taxes are significantly higher in Europe. Many Europeans own cars. The price of cars, fuels, associated products and services is much higher in Europe. In fact a lot of consumer niceties, energy, water, etc. is more costly in Europe.
It’s a moot point. It takes a lot of resources to become an expat. The people who can do it easily, already are well to do in the U.S. Europe is not opening its doors to the poor, uneducated and unskilled. They want people who are bringing money into the economy, not taking it out.
FeelingPatience@reddit
I am a foreigner living in the USA. I agree that the take home pay is better, especially for middle class and upper.
However, IMHO, you spend that extra amount on the housing, car payments (because most probably one will live in a car-centered hellscape, otherwise the housing is mostly not affordable) and healthcare.
I don't know what's the situation with housing in Europe, however at least you don't need a car in a lot of places and the healthcare got you covered.
What do you think on this matter after living there for a long time?
JustOneAvailableName@reddit
The netherlands is an absolute shit storm. It's very possible to be homeless with above average income. An average newly build home is 16x the average gross salary. Most people that bought a house a few (5-10) years ago earned more money with their house than with their job. I'd honestly rather be jobless in social housing than having a good job.
You really struck a chord there, haha.
pure_skill_@reddit
only 16x?
peterinjapan@reddit
Yes, Americans love to rent their garments about how expensive things are for them, until someone who knows that America is actually above most other countries in affordability chimes in.
downvotetheboy@reddit
Two people covered in shit are still covered in shit
e9967780@reddit
That sounds like Canada and Australia. Looks like a common post covid situation in some countries due to macro economic decisions taken before and during covid.
proof_required@reddit
Housing is worse. Americans love to throw SF/NYC but it's more expensive to buy housing in London/Paris/Munich/Milan/Lisbon than even SF/NYC.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
That's a good point. Folks like to conflate housing affordability with "housing prices" but the former takes into account wages (unlike the latter). Housing in San Francisco is more expensive than Vancouver in absolute terms, but so are salaries. So Vancouver by most measurements is less affordable.
Bandwagonsho@reddit
Also comparatively high health care costs in the US, no sick pay, generally less vacation. It is very hard to compare the two, but I feel more secure and better off in Germany.
Hannahchiro@reddit
How is the price of cars more in Europe? Back home in the UK I paid $5k for a good second hand car. Here (Texas) a good second hand car can cost $15,000 or more! Second hand trucks are $40k! Add to that the fact a tank of gas will last twice as long since they're generally more efficient and make fewer/shorter journeys (depending where you are located but most people also walk and use public transport), so I don't think it's a realistic comparison.
lisagrimm@reddit
When we moved from the US to Ireland, part of my ‘benefits’ package was an annual car allowance of €17,500…as we don’t have a car (not do we want one), it was basically free money, and allowed the company to have lower ‘salaries’ with higher benefits.
FWIW, my salary was a bit lower, but my take-home higher, moving from FAANG in the US to Big Pharma in Ireland - mostly as we were no longer paying massive OOP health insurance premiums/co-pays/etc.
b3rt_1_3@reddit
Can I ask how you did this? I have been in pharma for ten years now and have applied multiple places in Europe- Ireland included- and keep getting hit with the “we don’t sponsor foreign employees” spiel.
lisagrimm@reddit
I was lucky - got headhunted. While I was in pharma for that specific role, it’s just one vertical I’ve worked in - I’m primarily in a very niche area of tech, it happened to be a pharma company that did the heavy lifting.
Hannahchiro@reddit
Yeah it's very much swings and roundabouts according to the individual situation - for us moving to the US means we are better off but it doesn't work that way for everyone
BeekerBock@reddit
This prices are not true. I got my secondhand (nice) truck for $22k. You can get second hand cars for $5-10k, just depends on how new and nice you want
coldlightofday@reddit
New is definitely more expensive. Cars everywhere got crazy during Covid so what timeframe you comparing and are you comparing the same cars?
Mladenovski1@reddit
I would argue that even if you are lower middle class in Southern/Eastern Europe it's still better than US because of the free healthcare
coldlightofday@reddit
Europe absolutely has great social safety nets. I would rather be a poor person in Europe than in the U.S. absolutely. However, the same way you have abet at the bottom, there is a net at the top that is hard to break through. In the U.S. if you are comfortably middle class or higher, the sky is the limit on earnings, you have good insurance and better healthcare options than Europe. Much more disposable income. So yeah, in the USA you can fall much further and you can also climb much higher.
Mladenovski1@reddit
but for skilled people like doctos, software developers, engineers, the US is a no brainer, I think a lot of problems in the US can be solved when you make good money, like you said
Mladenovski1@reddit
yeah, living in the US is like riding a sport bike, you are going faster than everyone else but if you crash it will be messy
DatingYella@reddit
This is so true. I wish a bot would automatically respond to every post in /r/AmerExit with this
dallyan@reddit
This is it. Fairly low wage worker who has had the misfortune of living in the US and Switzerland, two countries with not a great safety net.
SeanBourne@reddit
Switzerland doesn’t have a great safety net?
I do empathize with your situation - Does CH provide any assistance to help you upskill? Given the costs there, I do not envy someone having to get by with less.
From the standpoint of a skilled worker, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, as Switzerland would be the one place in Europe where I could see an opportunity to do more than ‘tread water’ - makes sense that the safety net suffers as a result.
temp_gerc1@reddit
Correct me if I am wrong - but I always thought of Switzerland as a balance between the US and Germany. You get the high salaries and low taxes of the US (although strictly speaking, the places in the US with high salaries are usually in the high tax states) but it isn't as brutally capitalist as the US, in that you get more minimum vacation days, maintain health insurance even if you lose your job and there's a bit more labor protections. But not as generous a social state as Germany's, which is quite attractive if you have a family, or are poor / low-skilled, or asylum-seeking or simply unmotivated to work too hard.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Yah I guess I’m thinking even those on nice 100-150k salaries in the USA (which I consider middle class) still would be better off in Europe and it’s only when you get to higher upper middle class salaries like 400k plus you notice a difference
I could be wrong however it I assume even solidly middle class ppl are better off in Europe (assuming they have children)
bebefinale@reddit
Most jobs that pay 100-150K in the US pay a lot less in most European countries, and you are taxed a lot more (my friend in France said usually like 1/3rd lower salaries, so a 100K job would be more like 60K). Sometimes this comes with more benefits like childcare being cheaper, but it really depends on the country.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
How much are you taxed in the USA at a similar wage? And how much then goes in property tax, car payments, healthcare, daycare and paying off student loans?
I bet you end up with more left over in France if you have a child (possibly if you don’t)
leroyskagnetti@reddit
I live in HCOL Bay Area, California. I make a good salary but my take home is still 59 or 60% of gross. So I don't believe the taxes in Europe are that much more than what a lot of us pay.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
I think Cali has super high taxes though compared to other states right?
leroyskagnetti@reddit
Yes, but it's also the most populous state, so between CA and NY, a lot of Americans pay high overall taxes.
Coming from a much, much cheaper Midwestern state, I will say that the trade off for higher salary and quality of life is a good one.
Nice-Obligation5537@reddit
That makes sense as to why there much higher. I would have thought Europe was way higher than the US. And it’s interesting how much higher the cost of living is in Europe. I’m guessing what I’m getting from this is that living in the US I should also realize the lower cost of living it is here compared to other countries and embrace it
proof_required@reddit
Citing tax without income is being deceitful. People start paying 42-45% effective in Germany for 60-70K income. In California for 40%, you must be making half a million or so.
leroyskagnetti@reddit
Ha, no, not close to half a million. But between fed, state, and local, that still amounts to over 40%.
proof_required@reddit
You could just say your salary. Even if not half a million, it will be at least double/triple of 60-70K range.
By the way I didn't add the VAT/Sales tax which is 19% in Germany. So at that would make it 61-65% for sub 100K income.
from-VTIP-to-REFRAD@reddit
Imagine 60-75% of your gross US income with double the taxes. that’s an accurate benchmark.
SpeakCodeToMe@reddit
If you're in IT/software, more like 35-45%.
from-VTIP-to-REFRAD@reddit
Even in Germany? I knew that was the case further east but didn’t know it was that bad in DE
bebefinale@reddit
I talked to a friend who has lived in the US, Canada, and France. Lived in France and Canada with 3 kids. Daycare is pretty much free in France, so that is a huge difference (although not necessarily the case in all countries in Europe), and sure, student loans. Taxes are much higher and salaries are much lower. He and his wife didn't need a car and were able to get around with a bicycle and a bike trailer to take the kids to school (although some people had them...they were just quite expensive; they rented a car when they went on some trips).
He said mostly it came out in the wash.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Yah I think the dream is study in Europe, work in USA for a few years, return to Europe with lots of cash saved up and then buy a house, have children and live the life!
NanaSusaroo@reddit
Im in the upper end of that & my effective tax rate, post deductions, was around 20% in 2022. I don’t take the standard deduction, i itemize. I own a house and that provides some tax benefits in the US, less after a trump policy that capped the state and local property taxes you could deduct at 10K.
Training-Bake-4004@reddit
Jobs that pay 100-150k in the US mostly pay a lot less in Europe. Like, if I had a choice between 100k US and 100k Western Europe, I’d take Europe, but that’s rarely the choice. This is a big generalisation but lower income jobs are usually ‘relatively’ better paid in Europe and high income jobs are usually better paid in the US, and that’s before you account for the lower taxes for high earners in the US.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
At least in Sweden, I think a couple with children earning 100k combined would have more disposable income than a couple earning 200k combined in USA.
No need for a car (I know many love driving but I hate it and public transport is great)
Free healthcare, cheap daycare, if you live in a nice area there are good public schools, free university, cheap housing
coldlightofday@reddit
In many European countries, people who are well to do pay for additional health insurance on top of the “free” healthcare to get premium access. The wealthy also send their kids to expensive and elite European schools.
You don’t need a car if you live in a major city. Get outside of that and you probably want to one. Not that much different in the states. You don’t need a car if you live in NYC. If you have money, you probably want the convenience of a car.
Housing isn’t cheap in big desirable cities in Europe and not for the type of housing someone with money would want.
You seem to be comparing living as a pauper in Europe with living a comfortable lifestyle in the states. Nobody would do that, people adjust their lifestyles to their income.
hudibrastic@reddit
I’m so tired of people talking like it was a giant public transport wonderland… it is not
Sure, you can live in central London without a car, but mostly because the government makes anything in their power to make driving a car a miserable and expensive experience
But then when I travel and live with a car, it is another level of comfort, privacy and convenience… being able to jump in the car in your garage, drive anywhere you want anytime you want without having to worry about timetables, routes available, strikes and be packed with hundreds of people where you barely can breath
danton_no@reddit
How many students get a position in university? How much does beef cost there? I am in NYC, fresh grass fed 3% fat ground beef is $5.8 per pound including taxes. Fresh norwegian salmon, no bone with skin is $11-$12 per pound. School for 3-6 years old is totally free. I don't need a car here. Healthcare is expensive, but there is a max out of pocket for me. I think $6.5k after taxes. Most low income pay only co-payments. I make more than double than I did in Norway
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Past a certain point you will start making more money and having more disposable income in USA sure.
I buy super fancy organic grassfed beef lol so I can’t compare but food is expensive in Sweden
I know both USA and Scandinavia have free schools but I’m talking about high quality where the difference between free and private is minimal - in Sweden state schools in nice areas are EXCELLENT
I dong know how many get to uni tbh- they have to pass their tests
danton_no@reddit
When we lived in Norway, daycare up to kindergaten was "free", only 4500kr per month per child. Afterschool is again "free", i think the same price. That is money we didn't have.
There is no organic food in Norway. It is too costly. People just buy the cheapest and I saw many bought First Price.
I didn't have older children in high school or UNI when in Norway, but from my experience, Norwegian never complain about anything (in comparison with NYorkers that complain about everything). Foreigners in Norway that had children in school were complaining. And I knew many doctors (including Norwegian) that studied abroad. So, yeah it is free if you manage to get in.
Healthcare is "free" if you don't hear " we don't do this in Norway". My main complain about healthcare is preventive care and following up non-urgent issues. It is a total joke. In emergencies people are covered. In other cases waiting times or treatment is such that medical issues become worse. We did happen to pay one year 50kNOK for medical procedures not covered and another year 30k for dental issues not coved. Dental is not covered in Norway. I know Sweden includes it.
Probably you are Swedish. What i really believe is that Scandinavia is great but only for the Locals and probably unskilled workers. In comparison to USA, one must compare towards cities in USA. Every city has a different welfare or no welfare. Example in Houston I have heard that they have almost no welfare. But I happen to know 2 people that lost their jobs and the state is covering their mortgage! NYC has very similar welfare to Norway. In some cases even better.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Wow the state is covering the mortgage?! That’s awesome!
I’m English but moved here- Swedish daycare I’m told is 1000kr a month per child so much more reasonable
Yes I hear complaints about healthcare but we also gave less health problems as air is cleaner, food less additives, less stress more walkable cities so more exercise.
Both swede and Norwegian don’t complain enough that’s true but still I see well behaved school children most of the time.
I could earn more if I moved to Ireland or Netherlands and I’m tempted to for a few reasons but we shall see
rlstrader@reddit
This is a big "it depends". Making the general comparison isn't worth it.
There are parts of the US where you can earn that much but spend very little on housing and property taxes. Some people have family help for taking care of the kids. Some have health issues, some don't. There are too many variables.
Training-Bake-4004@reddit
There are so many factors. A couple on 200k in Kansas is going to have vastly more disposable income than one on 100k in Sweden. In Cali, well, probably still more but no so much more.
Professional_Ad_6462@reddit
Well are you not making mostly a purely financial argument? Had a career in the U.S. in Cali Bay Area
Training-Bake-4004@reddit
I mean, I’m responding to a question about take home pay and disposable income so yeah. Non-financially my answer would be totally different, but that wasn’t the question.
from-VTIP-to-REFRAD@reddit
Exactly this. On purely financial terms, the USA >>> Europe. Almost every US citizen living in the EU gets this, but we stay in Europe due to the other factors
mrs_frizzle@reddit
My husband and I make close to $200k combined a year. We live in rural Texas and have 3 kids. Our jobs cover our insurance 100%, but we pay about $400 a month for insurance for our kids.
We have 3 vehicles (each of us and our 18 year old son). We pay about $1,000 a month in car payments, insurance for 3 drivers, and gas.
Our kids are out of daycare now, but my sister currently pays about $400 a month for her son, which is comparable to what we paid.
We bought our 3 bedroom 2 bath brick house with a large yard in 2019 for $99k. (It did need cosmetic work, otherwise it would have gone for about $115k. Those same houses are all $160k now, but still cheap.)
Our local public school is fantastic, one of the reasons we moved here. My kids have free university because I am a professor. I have a mountain of student loans, but they are forgiven after 10 years of public service and I only have 1 year left.
So, our household brings home ~$12,000 a month net, and the expenses you listed (health insurance and cars) run us ~$1,400 a month. Our house payment, including tax and insurance, is $950 a month. We also have groceries ($800), utilities/internet/cell phones ($700), and my student loan ($300). We have a lot of disposable income every month that we invest, spend on the kids, use to travel or go do fun things, and eat out.
The question when you are comparing good quality of life with ours and someone in Sweden isn’t just about disposable income. We live in the middle of nowhere in Texas. It is cheap because it is hot, there is nothing to do, and no one wants to live here. My family does not fit the politics or culture of this small town. We chose to raise our kids here to be near family, but we will trade that disposable income for a place we actually want to be in a heartbeat once our youngest graduates.
MoschopsChopsMoss@reddit
Yeah I think this is a good illustration of the key difference. We make over 200k Euro together, but that 50% income tax is cutting it in half instantly. 300 euro a month for health insurance for two adults, 2.5k rent and not even considering getting a car at this point. Income-wise it’s considered very high, yet any decent starter home is going for 700-800k, so all the money is getting burnt in the air in any scenario
WorkinSlave@reddit
This is some strong copium.
We earned this in the US and can retire at 45 years old. Good luck doing that in Sweden.
$200k = $150k post tax $2500/mo housing $1000/mo bills/groceries
Roughly $100k/year of potential savings per year.
Fine-Historian4018@reddit
I’ll give you one example of my household salary and expenses per year.
HHI: 250k. I pay roughly 30% in taxes for federal, state and local. Dual income household 1 child.
Mortgage (11 years left): 20k per year on a 4 bed 2 bath.
Cars: two paid off Toyotas. I spend about 5k insurance, maintenance and gas.
Food and dining (half is discretionary since it’s mostly eating out and I shop at the high end grocery store): 30k per year.
Health costs: 4k year.
Daycare: 12k per year.
I saved about 100k last year. Net worth is at 500k at 35 and should be at a million by 40. This is not typical of course but a high income probably 90th percentile. At an upper middle class position, you are most certainly able to build more wealth than elsewhere in Europe. Whether that’s good for society is another question.
At a middle or lower income, someone is almost certainly going to be better off in Europe. But you don’t need 400k to be well off in the us. After 150k annual income things started really picking up in terms of wealth building.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Your mortgage is about the same as mine and I live in a one bedroom 😭 (admittedly in a great area)
May I ask is that your income or yours and your wife’s combined?
Fine-Historian4018@reddit
Our base salary is about 80k each. I make about 20k in “overtime” type pay. My wife makes about 70k in overtime type pay.
So her 150k total.
Me 100k total.
Household 250k.
HVP2019@reddit
Typically you will be better off living as a citizen of your own country than living as an immigrant among strangers in unfamiliar country.
Being an immigrant typically puts you at disadvantage.
coldlightofday@reddit
People make much less in Europe. Typical well paid fields like doctors, lawyers, engineers make much less than they do in the states. Someone with only a high school diploma making 6-figures is extremely rare in Europe, whereas it’s rare but not really that uncommon in the states.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Just no.
Tabitheriel@reddit
Taxes are only “significantly higher” in the higher tax brackets. I just got two tax refunds here in Germany.
Recent-Ad865@reddit
Taxes are way higher in Europe at lower income levels. Middle class pays most of the taxes.
Once you hit 59,000 EUR in DE you’re in the 42% bracket.
In the US ($64,000 USD) you’d be in the 22% bracket. Even adding CA state tax it’s 28%.
NanaSusaroo@reddit
Do you have all the incidental taxes in Europe like in the US? Is there VAT on all purchases? The US varies by state but, for example, in addition to federal taxes, I pay state and city taxes from my paycheck, and in daily life on non-food items, clothing up to $110 US is not taxed. I also pay property tax. Some states have no income tax, no property tax, other states tax groceries. It’s all over the place.
Recent-Ad865@reddit
This is true. That’s only income tax.
VAT in DE is 19%. Denmark is 25%.
The highest sales tax under 10% in the US.
tripletruble@reddit
The US actually taxes way more progressively than most of Europe, believe it or not. Federal income taxes for a single household only go about 12% after $47k. Social security takes a much smaller percentage than mandatory pension programs in europe
WuPaulTangClan@reddit
But really it's more like $60k gross salary factoring in the standard deduction
hudibrastic@reddit
The higher tax bracket is a joke in many European countries… in the Netherlands the highest tax bracket is a little above 70k, in Belgium is 50k
Short_Dragonfruit_84@reddit
This is the best answer
Miserable-Loan-1904@reddit
agreed
SeanBourne@reddit
Great answer.
47952@reddit
True.
RexMundi000@reddit
Depends on what US company you work for. Along with a higher vs EU salary some companies give good packages.
The company I work for gives the us the following benefits.
FlipsMontague@reddit
Many many people in the United States do not have an office job at an established company. Many work in retail, food service, menial labor, physical labor jobs that do not have unions. Having a company give you a good deal with health insurance and days off is not the norm or average. It is becoming the exception to every day life in the USA. If you remove the top 10% of earners in the country, the average and median incomes are under $40,000 a year. Most people pay taxes on that just as Europeans do, but don't get healthcare, vacations, or child care back for those taxes.
maracay1999@reddit
However since we’re in an expat sub, most jobs people are talking about here are white collar; hence the focus on professional office jobs.
Nobody’s getting a visa to move to france to be a cashier (where I agree the benefits are far better in EU for example)
ConsiderationSad6271@reddit
Believe it or not, in some European countries you can be given a visa to be a restaurant worker since it’s an “in demand” profession. Austria, for example.
HouseEquivalent5717@reddit
I'm in the tech area so I wouldn't consider this, but this is amazing, and news to me!
FlipsMontague@reddit
Yes, but people are comparing everyday life costs in the USA vs Europe and my statement is essential to that conversation.
Puzzled-Put-7077@reddit
Expats wouldn’t be working in retail or hospitality unless they were students etc
carnivorousdrew@reddit
What kind of healthcare do you think retail workers can afford in most of Europe? People that have higher salary jobs go to private clinics a much as possible. Wonder why. There are people waiting for 2 years to get an MRI to see if they have cancer.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
But in the EU you get all that anyway, maybe not stock purchase, but many companies offer that anyway.
boxesofcats@reddit
I’ve lived in 4 countries and assessed relocation packages of many expats. I’d say 90% of the time you will save more money in the USA than abroad. This is mainly due to Americans being forced to save for retirement on their own.
With that said, on an hourly basis, I’d suggest that the savings rates are nearly equal. I’d say Americans in corporate jobs work 400 more hours per year than Europeans (more vacation days and better work life balance disciple).
the_nigerian_prince@reddit
Try working for an American company from Europe.
You get the same corporate bullshit and shitty work-life balance for lesser pay.
HouseEquivalent5717@reddit
how does that work? Don't they need to conform to European labor laws if the have an office based in Europe?
scoobany114@reddit
I am Polish and no it's not true. Everyone works 9 to 5. Americans just have less vacations that are required by law
zmzzx-@reddit
400 hours = 10 weeks = 2.5 MONTHS!! Ouch.
I’m trying to move to EU from the US for that exact reason. They also casually increase my work hours to 12+ sometimes without warning as if it’s nothing.
LizP1959@reddit
Depends on your situation. Child free adult in US can really pile up the cash, own very nice property, have a very much higher standard of living than in France, Germany, UK, for equivalent professional jobs. But wait: don’t get sick or try to retire!
Source: I worked in US, UK, and Europe. Loved living in France—wonderful quality of life— but salary was not ok (for equivalent professional position). UK salary also not great and quality of life definitely not great(expensive housing, awful weather, bad beaches, lots of mold).
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Yes u remember the moldy homes 😭
Jury-Hairy@reddit
I've lived and work in London for 3 years now (childfree) and agree with your sentiments about the UK. I've just been promoted to Manager and the salary increase was really disappointing considering the amount of tax I'll now have to pay. Haven't been able to save as much as I would like and buying a flat seems almost impossible without help (which I don't have) - been thinking about moving to the US instead.
LizP1959@reddit
And the respiratory illnesses they cause! Ugh.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
>very much higher standard of living than in France, Germany, UK, for equivalent professional jobs. But wait: don’t get sick or try to retire!<
Anyone earning a high enough salary to enjoy "a very much higher standard of living" in the US than other rich countries is generally going to enjoy (1) robust employer-provided health insurance coverage and (2) enough income to comfortably sock away 10%-15% of gross annually, at least if they're not total idiots. Also, the US Social Security (retirement) system is pretty solid for high wage workers. AFAIK the % of wages replaced is about average by OECD standards (neither above nor below average). And federal-guarnateed healthcare for the over 65 (Medicare) is quite robust by rich country standards. In short, I'm not sure the warning about "getting sick or retiring" is valid.
It sucks to be poor or lower middle class in the US (or, in many cases, just plain old middle class), that's true! But professional/managerial class workers enjoy a high material standard of living; are almost all covered by health insurance; and usually mange to enjoy comfortable retirements, at least if they've paid off the mortgage.
LizP1959@reddit
You are right—I personally am privileged in all those ways but many many people are not.
50MillionChickens@reddit
People I'm Europe, at least the ones with steady employment, may not have huge cash flow but have better lifestyles, from my view. No one has multiple cars and trucks and 3 flat screens but they eat well, they don't "hustle", and they take 4-6 weeks a year to travel to coasts, mountains and usually in other countries.
palbuddy1234@reddit
Respectfully the upper-middle class Europeans take their EasyJet to coasts and mountains. Middle-class Europeans with kids have a camping vacation or perhaps see some local family, or some just stay at home with their kids.
Navelgazed@reddit
I don’t think upper class Europeans are taking EuroJet on the regular.
Living in Western Europe, it is definitely true that middle class families with children take long camper vacations with kids, but they do it on the coast or in the mountains after driving there. But they do it for three weeks, which is an amazing luxury in the US.
prettyprincess91@reddit
I consider myself middle class and don’t take easyJet. Between the extra luggage fees and taxis to BS airports versus tube to Heathrow flying a normal carrier like Lufthansa or BA is cheaper or about the same as BA easyJet/Ryanair.
The people who fly these are people with cars that can easily get to BS airports like Luton.
Navelgazed@reddit
I mean,if Facebook and Reddit are any evidence for the budget airport here, Ryanair flights are booked by people who can’t figure out that getting to an airport in the middle of nowhere costs more than their flight.
But almost all middle class people where I live have cars.
prettyprincess91@reddit
I live in London zone 2 and have no car. Much rather take tube.
Status-Put-7089@reddit
Upper-middle europoor here, I only fly with Easyjet and other low cost airlines because recently the prices went up like x2-x3. Two years ago I flew to Rome and back for 40 euros, but now I’m lucky if I find something for 100 in low season, and that’s EasyJet, so no luggage or anything.
I’m based in the Netherlands.
ericblair21@reddit
Thalys/Eurostar train fares seem to have shot up as well since COVID. I think they're still trying to make up for lost revenue.
Status-Put-7089@reddit
Trains have always been expensive, but you can still buy cheap tickets if you book like 3 months ahead. It’s different with the flights because these became expensive thanks to the extra green taxes. It’s also always nice to know that a little country with 17mil population is trying so hard to fight for the green future by making travel a luxury, while you can still fly from Cyprus to Paris for like 50 round 🤷♀️
ericblair21@reddit
This always pissed me off. Even in Europe, you're penalized for trying to go green. These days, if you have a couple of kids with you it's cheaper to drive to Paris including tolls and gas then take the train.
It certainly doesn't help that aviation fuel is not taxed in Europe, while the electric and other costs for the train are.
just_anotjer_anon@reddit
The fact aviation fuel generally is subsidised is a big issue and should stop asap.
We should really be doing a lot more to make trains good within Europe - for shorter trips busses are more often superior as it is today
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
I’ve never heard of middle class taking camper vans anywhere? I’m middle class and it doesn’t happen
Navelgazed@reddit
Interesting. In Belgium it is the majority of my coworkers with kids over 5 but under 16. Between this summer and last summer everyone but me on my team with kids has done this.
kranj7@reddit
Not only this, but there are a lot of these camper 'facilities' that are actually rather luxurious with loads of activities. And I don't think there is a social class distinction here as I get the impression you will have all sorts of people using these facilities for leisure rather than them looking at it from a cost-perspective. I don't have a camper van/trailer unfortunately but if I did, I seriously wouldn't mind these types of holiday.
palbuddy1234@reddit
Upper middle. Upper...yup, you're right!
Navelgazed@reddit
The first bit of my comment only makes sense when one realizes I thought you said EasyJet not EuroJet.
Oops.
SpeedySparkRuby@reddit
Yeah, most Europeans I know tend to have one maybe two vacations per year somewhere local to them they can get to by train or bus as plane travel can be stressful and long if you aren't near a major airport. The perception of Europeans whisking off for multiple week long vacations per year feels a bit off the mark from talking with European friends.
Maybe a big holiday trip or packaged holiday to somewhere in the Mediterranean at an inexpensive holiday resort or vacation house with family or a group of friends/family as a once every couple to few years thing.
Most people I've asked it's like 2 weeks vacation and then the rest for taking time off at home as they need for whatever reason. The major difference if any is that taking time off isn't seen as a bad thing in the workplace. There's still an expectation of don't take off too much time. But take time off as you need.
Like for a working class Finnish friend of mine I know, his big vacations he takes are taking the ferry from Helsinki to Stockholm with friends as annual party cruise getogether or getting a lake cabin with friends for Midsummer celebration.
rabbitkingdom@reddit
I think it depends on the country. Here in Spain, we definitely have a culture of going on trips. We have a set number of days off each year (every company I’ve worked at has been around 27 working days PTO, plus public holidays) and it is 100% expected that you take those days off and is not discouraged in the slightest as it’s your right and it doesn’t get paid out or carry over if you don’t take them so any manager will understand as they’ll be using their vacation time too.
Many companies will actually force their employees to take the entirety of August off so it’s not uncommon for businesses to stop operations entirely during that month. International travel is very common during this time as travel within Spain is hot, full of tourists, and not ideal with so many businesses closed.
papayaushuaia@reddit
Most Europeans have never heard of Gofundme. Medical bills in USA are ridiculous. healthcare is a business in the USA.
rabbitkingdom@reddit
Think you replied to the wrong person…
papayaushuaia@reddit
My bad !
Alinoshka@reddit
The only people I know who are whisking off to week-long European vacations multiple times a year here in Sweden are my DINK friends with lots of $$, or my single friends whose parents support them.
I had a coworker judge me for going to Rome and then Munich a week later because it 'made people feel bad' (both times were for weddings of friends)
unsamendoins@reddit
I disagree. Coming from Portugal, not a rich Western European country, my parents are middle class and would typically take us on 2 trips a year, flying, not low cost. Obviously we don’t use 5-6 weeks vacation to travel, maybe 2 or 3 and the rest we enjoy Portugal.
I’d say it really depends on where you live (not Lisbon = much cheaper) and how you spend. I had friends with parents earning a lot more than my family and they wouldn’t travel because they’d spend on other things they value more than travelling.
uganda_numba_1@reddit
Middle class Europeans where I live drive down to Italy or Croatia and rent an apartment or a small house.
ulumulu23@reddit
Not sure where you live but in most of central and northern Europe you don't need to be middle class to take an airplane to the coast or mountains. Some of the cheapest holidays available especially with children are all inclusive trips to Spain, Greece and Turkey. Unless you are unemployed you are likely to have enough money for Ryanair. Buying a camper van on the other hand can be a bit pricey and fuel and road tolls aren't cheap either.
toosemakesthings@reddit
I think the average European can't really afford to go on holiday for their entire 25-30 days a year off work. Many in their 20s do it anyways even if they can't really afford it. They'll go into debt, never invest a penny into long-term savings, live in a shitty flatshare with 4 strangers, etc so they can take several Ryanair flights a year and stay in hostels. It's a combination of budget travel and budget living. As these people get older (mid 30's and onwards) many of them will travel less and choose to take domestic holidays with family instead, or even just take time off to hang out around the house. On the average salary of 25-30k a year and high income tax there just isn't enough money for most people to travel that much without slumming it at least in some regards.
ThrowawayANarcissist@reddit
Exactly. When I lived and traveled in different regions of Europe or talked to relatives from different regions and countries, I as a foreigner had traveled to many different countries, and more regions of Europe than they had. I also have traveled through all of the U.S.A., Canada, and different regions of Mexico/Latin America.
My relatives might go to different nearby provinces in their own country for holiday or to visit relatives, but it wasn't constant traveling, going to lots of different cities in their country or other countries as it is extremely expensive to travel, along with saving, and the high cost of living.
Adorable-Bicycle4971@reddit
Different people, different countries, different experiences.
Coming from south east side of Europe, living in London, engaged in my 30s with no kids.
We tend to take a full week of Saturday to next Sunday, 9 days vacation every summer somewhere in the Mediterranean - a Greek island usually, going to Sardinia, Italy this summer.
Then another ~5 days PTO along with the bank holidays to celebrate Christmas/New Year’s with family usually from 23rd of December to 2nd of January.
We then aim for a “bigger” trip once a year. Last year it was 13 days including weekends in Japan, this year probably about the same number of days exploring Egypt.
This leaves us with about 7 more PTO days plus bank holidays. We tend to add a day before or after every bank holiday and take 3 or 4 short 4-5 days trips, with a couple of them for a city break somewhere in Europe and a couple for going back to our home country and visit family.
If job allows we also work a week or two from abroad, usually our home country to spend some with our parents while working from home.
I can see that changing when we will have children opting for less but probably longer trips.
RexManning1@reddit
It’s not binary. Europe isn’t a single entity and different US cities have different costs of living. Some employers pay most of the employee health care insurance premiums. Some pay all of it. The blanket comparisons will never work.
sellin1b@reddit
This blanket statement brought to you by Carl's Jr.
DoTheMagicHandThing@reddit
LOL!
TMobile_Loyal@reddit
OP you have the definition of "take home pay" wrong.
I take home $X,000 after taxes, retirement contribution, etc
But yes my expenses are $Y,000
I'm left with X-Y called savings.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
Yeah. Take home generally means "cash after the tax/insurance wedge." Cost of living is a different issue.
Squidbilly37@reddit
You mean, I can't use blanket statements anymore?! /s
DrRoccoTano@reddit
Everyone who uses blanket statements is always wrong.
trescoole@reddit
Blankeeeettttts!!!!
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
A Sith, they're a Sith!
Squidbilly37@reddit
Hahaha! Love it
tfcocs@reddit
This is meta. Mind blown!
theGIRTHQUAKE@reddit
I left a job making $200k/yr at a 24% marginal tax rate in the US for one making €108k/yr at 49.5% marginal rate in the Netherlands.
When everything is said and done, for an equivalent standard of living, yes I did have a little more pocket money in the US, but not a lot more.
But I consider what I won’t be spending on my childrens’ education in the US (easily $200k for both), the fact that an injury can’t bankrupt me here, the cheaper childcare (which I wasn’t using in the US so that probably would have evened things totally), and the generally-better social safety net meaning I don’t have to have such a large nest-egg saved up to feel safe…
With all that, I consider my overall family situation to be generally the same even though the numbers look vastly different on paper.
Young and single? I’d rather grind, bankroll and invest in the US. Middle-career and middle-aged with a family and future to prepare for? NL edges it out for me.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
the fact that an injury can’t bankrupt me here,
You were making $250K in the United States and employer didn't provide health coverage? Sounds reasonable!
theGIRTHQUAKE@reddit
I had great health coverage. Like almost everyone else with a full-time job in the states, that health coverage is tied to your employment. Injured and can no longer work? House of cards.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
That’s exactly what I thought - once you factor in children then unless you are making BANK you are probably better off in Europe
Did you grind in the USA for a big though so that now you have extra nice wad of savings compare to the average European?
theGIRTHQUAKE@reddit
I was a late bloomer financially, I enjoyed the hell out of my 20’s and don’t regret much but I didn’t settle down into my big-boy career and any financial discipline until I was about 30. But I have tried to somewhat make up for lost time since, 38 now.
I’m not sure where the average European stands, but I paid off my student loans, no debt, have a healthy 401k and minor investments, a few of months of expenses liquid, and made some good money on the sale of our house when we moved. I could have been a lot smarter and had a lot more invested or saved, but we are doing fine.
I’m not really interested in having a lot of liquid savings, more than 2-3 months of expenses is just a waste. Still figuring out my investment strategy now that I’m here, and we bought a house and put some into equity.
So…could we be better off if I’d grinded harder all along on my US salary? Oh for sure. But we lived comfortably and are doing fine, so I try not to beat myself up too bad. I’d guess we are middle-of-the-road for late-30s in Europe as far as net worth, but I really have no idea.
strzibny@reddit
On average I would say it's 100% true for average and high earning professionals. For one, health insurance might be covered for you, and for second, people in Europe also have cars :)
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
We do but most cities you don’t need a car - where I live it would actually just slow me down
strzibny@reddit
They are places in US that don't need cars in the same way as well. More in Europe, but this is a big lifestyle choice thingy. I cannot imagine to live in my region I am from without a car. Sure we do have great buses to cities around, so technically yes, but everyone gets a car for the comfort.
control-alt-deleted@reddit
SW engineer here EU offer (Berlin): €100k US offer (Bay Area): $320k + $800k in equity
It’s not the taxes that’s different. It’s the income baseline. Yes, I pay a ton for childcare. Yes, schools are expeeeensive. But not 4x expensive. Total take home is around 2-2.5x on base pay. Equity makes it golden.
European companies are skimpy AF when it comes to equity and they know.
daverco@reddit
Interesting anecdote, but the comparison for your role is not representative at all. Such equity packages are rare in the U.S. too (modest portion of equity indeed more common, but usually not at individual contributor level). You just happen to have to the right role in the right industry in the right U.S. location.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
Yeah comparing a $320k salary (an outlier, even in SF) to €100k (pretty common in tech industry in Berlin) seems erroneous.
That said, they're not wrong when they say that European countries are skimpy AF when it comes to equity.
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
€100k in Dublin goes to €250k in NYC, tech sector. Cost of living isn't 2.5x, taxes considerably lower, way more benefits and RSUs in NYC
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
What does that have to do with the ridiculous comparison that we were specifically calling out?
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
What does a tech role comparison Dublin-NYC (Europe Vs US) have to do with a tech role comparison Berlin-SF (Europe Vs US)?
Is that what you're asking?
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
No. I'm specifically pointing out that the original comparison was absurd to make. Yours is absolutely much more valid especially given that people move to the US to build up financial wealth (it's not something I'm wholly ignorant of), but it is not in line with what I was criticizing.
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
To confirm, so we're all on the same page, you disagree with the likelihood or prevalence of this:
SW engineer here EU offer (Berlin): €100k US offer (Bay Area): $320k + $800k in equity
It’s not the taxes that’s different. It’s the income baseline. Yes, I pay a ton for childcare. Yes, schools are expeeeensive. But not 4x expensive. Total take home is around 2-2.5x on base pay. Equity makes it golden.
European companies are skimpy AF when it comes to equity and they know.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
Did you miss my earlier comment stating that European companies are skimpy AF when it comes to equity? I feel that we’re arguing about different things. I’m specifically - and nothing more - stating that the original comparison is very unlikely relevant for the average person, even those of us in tech, and doesn’t provide value to the conversation at hand.
Are you more likely to get $800k in equity in the US compared to Europe? Absolutely! Is that common in the US? Not at all!
Make sense now?
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
No, I hadn't, which is why I'd focused on base rather than equity. Even still, 100k in tech in Europe is not unusual, certainly not after the first 5+ years. Moving to the US to get 2x-4x is also not unusual.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
Once again, 100k salary is not the one I’m nitpicking (I’ll be making more than that in Europe once I move). The $320k salary is a lot less common than the equivalent of what the 100k salary is in Europe and therefore aren’t accurate comparisons. It’s about trying to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
If that cannot still be understood, then I’m dipping out of this conversation as it’s clear we’re likely on the same page as it relates to salaries that can be found in US but not on the same page when it comes to what’s being compared.
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
I fundamentally disagree, I know a fair amount of people in tech, pharma and law who'd be at 100k r thereabouts, and moving to the right city in the US would get >$300k
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
I too know of plenty of those in either continent but it’s not representative of the norm, but we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
So realistically it's quite achievable for me, in NYC, to get the my salary up to $320k p.a. including basic "hey young did a little above average, congrats" annual bonus. So that's absolutely likely and probable.
$800k in equity is absolutely NOT unheard of in tech in the Bay area or slightly south in Silicon Valley, certainly not for senior software engineers in billion dollar companies like FAANG or in startup when you're going to be a major contributor to the end product, you'd be getting more base elsewhere or you're in a relatively niche subcategory of multi-skill that they wo desperately need.
Genuinely.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
Right. A better comparison would be, say, a job at 225% of median wage (in either city).
SeanBourne@reddit
That said, it says something about the relative opportunities in the US vs DE that the same individual has such a gap in offers between the two. That ‘uncommon’ offer is that much more ‘uncommon’ (perhaps doesn’t exist) in Germany.
Recent-Ad865@reddit
This is my experience as well (not tech).
US wages are about double. People look at salary alone but all the benefits (401k match, health insurance) add even more.
Expenses are higher, but if my expenses double along with my salary im saving double.
proof_required@reddit
And simple math will tell you even if costs increase exactly as much as salary, you will save more!
Proper_Duty_4142@reddit
As a European living in the US, yes, definitely. We could even buy a house in the US and a beautiful condo in the best part of town in Europe that we only keep for us when we visit family. An example, my wife has started a business from home (remote) during Covid and now makes almost $200k. She could make much more if she wanted to but she prefers to spend time with our little toddler :) We also live in beautiful city near the coast, see the ocean every day, walk and bike and have access to great food, recreational and employment opportunities. And we spend 2 to 3 months a year in Europe so our little one can spend enough time with family.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
That’s so cool to hear!
Amazing your wife earns so much working from home- so cool!
Prahasaurus@reddit
It really depends. From my experience, taxes are higher in the USA for many of the reasons you listed. In the US, you need to save a lot of money for university for each child, beginning when they are born. After all, you will have a 50k USD college bill, oftentimes significantly higher. Health insurance is very expensive and capricious. Property taxes in the USA are insane. You also have state taxes, which can be crazy expensive (highly variable across states).
I pay significantly less tax in Europe than I would in the USA (source: I've lived in both Europe and the USA). I have a local, EU based company, pay myself a small salary, and pay dividends from profits. Dividends here for expats are taxed at 0%. Healthcare for my entire family is 200 USD per month. Food is cheaper where I live, as I buy local. My property taxes are under 100 USD (I paid thousands per year in the USA). No "state" taxes, of course. European universities are much cheaper than American ones, so while I'm saving for my daughter, it's much less than needed in the USA. I can vacation more or else anywhere in Europe for very little, since Ryan Air flies all over Europe from an airport about 25 minutes from my house. But since I live in the Mediterranean, I feel like I'm on vacation from May through November...
Unfortunately, because I'm American, I often owe taxes in the USA because I "didn't pay enough" in Europe... So if you are American, you are screwed regardless.
But to answer your questions, outside of extremely high tax countries like France and Denmark, living in the EU can save a lot on taxes.
ericblair21@reddit
Average in-state bachelor's degree tuition in the US at state universities is around $11k/yr; not everybody goes to Columbia. University tuition in Europe may be very low or zero for EU/EEA citizens, but international tuition in the Netherlands is usually around 15000 euros/year and in the UK it's around 24000 GBP/year, so if your child isn't an EU/EEA citizen it can get just as pricey as the US.
I'm an American who worked in Europe as well, with a different tax free status. This is obviously an unusual setup unavailable to locals, and we were saving vastly more than our local peers. Similarly, the situation where you're paying taxes to the US is very unusual, as most people will be earning wage income. Benelux is quite the tax haven if you're not a salaried or hourly worker.
For our area, there were local taxes that were a flat 6% or so of wage income on top of national income taxes. So no state or provincial taxes, but equivalent local ones. Also significant sales taxes on real estate transactions, and substantial estate and inheritance taxes can kick in at 40k euros/yr in many countries if you're a resident when you depart this vale of tears.
Prahasaurus@reddit
LOL. Only Americans can believe that total BS.
Tuition may "only" be 11k USD per year, but that is only 50% of total costs. I didn't write "tuition," I wrote "college bill". You have rent, food, books, travel, activities, etc. So my 50k USD for university is way too low. More like 100k USD minimum, thanks for correcting me.
Netherlands at 15k EUR per year? LOL. Noooooo. Those are fees for foreigners, not what the Dutch pay. Nice try.
UK is not part of the EU. And that is just an outlier, the UK is always more like the US.
The idea that a university education is similar in Europe to the USA is a total joke. You can pick all the outliers you want, but here is the reality: I have one child at a European university, one in the USA. USA tuition is 20k USD per year, another 20k for rent, food, books, gas costs, etc. In Europe, tuition is free. Rent plus extras is around 15k USD per year (no car, no gas, she takes the tram as she studies in Prague). After 4 years:
USA --> 160k USD
Europe --> 60k USD
ericblair21@reddit
Median student loan debt in the US for new graduates is $30k. Guess they're better at finance then you are.
Of course I'm talking about non-EU citizens when it comes to tuition. Did you read the title of this subreddit?
Prahasaurus@reddit
LOL. That's because their parents are paying. Has nothing to do with your ridiculous argument that European universities are as expensive as the US.
My child in the US will have 0 debt when he graduates. Not because it's cheap. But because I saved and paid for him.
ericblair21@reddit
Average personal loan debt per household in the US is $11.7k. Guess all these parents managed to save up your $400k per kid by the time they're 18.
Sticker price tuition for elite US universities has gone through the roof. That's for sure. The vast, vast majority of students don't go to the handful of elite US universities, and even if they do and their parents don't make six figures they usually get full scholarships. The current administration has forgiven $150 billion in student loan debt, which wipes out much if not all of the debt for four million people going to normal universities.
If you are an expat moving to Europe, do not assume tuition is free if you're not a citizen. Do not assume that all programs, or most programs, are available in English, although some are. Don't assume student housing is readily available.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
Sticker price tuition for elite US universities has gone through the roof.
True. What's also true is a relatively modest portion of students pay full sticker price.
https://jabberwocking.com/the-cost-of-college-has-barely-changed-in-the-past-30-years/
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
So my 50k USD for university is way too low. More like 100k USD minimum, thanks for correcting me.
Apparently in your part of the US commuting didn't exist, nor did community college.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
Too many personal and particular variables to make such broad generalizations. What part of Europe? British students on average have higher student debt than US students, but Danish students hardly any. What part of US? (housing costs vary dramatically in both Europe and US). Household size? Health status? (a relatively healthy, youngish person in the US might be just fine with bare bones ACA-compliant coverage. Someone with more complex health needs, maybe not.) Also, taxes can vary quite a bit both between different European countries and between US states (and some cities). A high salary worker in NYC will likely face a tax/insurance wedge close to their equivalent in Paris or Stockholm. But Houston is a lot cheaper. And so on.
PMC salaries in the US are some of the world's highest, but yes, the US safety net tends to be less comprehensive and efficient, and there are only a tiny number of places in America where car-free living is a reasonable option—so that adds cost one might more easily resist in Europe. On the other hand, housing costs have risen in much of Europe, too—especially in highly convenient central city locations with rich transit options. Americans sometimes think all Europeans live within a ten minute walk of a metro station. Far from true!
All things equal, I'd rather be a worker earning 90% of median income in Western Europe than the US. I also think a young family at, say, 150% of median income would likely live better in wide swaths of Europe (at least the richer European countries). As you move up the income scale, though—especially if we're exempting the very priciest metros (SF Bay, LA, NYC, etc)—the US affords a very high material standard of living. This is especially true for the young and childless. But my sense the "US does better" threshold kicks in *well* below $400K for most situations. More like $125K (but then again, US PMC workers are far likelier to earn $125K than European workers).
The higher up the income scale you go, the better the US looks. The lower you go the better Europe looks. It's complicated!
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
I love your summary!
I hope this post helps others considering a move in either direction decide what is best for them
Definitely been enlightening for me to find out how ppl manage things
sierra771@reddit
Depends on your job. If you’re a high school teacher in the USA then you probably won’t have as much take home pay as a teacher in Finland. Also don’t take your health for granted, you might save 100s of thousands more living and working in the US, but get unlucky and lose it all because of illness. 40% of US bankruptcies are due to medical bills.
ConsiderationSad6271@reddit
I know someone that had $500k in a 401k and a paid for house only to have a family member be diagnosed with an odd disease. Now that money is gone and the house is mortgaged. Don’t underestimate the power of subsidized healthcare.
The real answer here is to have exposure to both sides of the coin.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
I know someone that had $500k in a 401k and a paid for house only to have a family member be diagnosed with an odd disease
Sad story, but guaranteed issue and community rating have been the law of the land since 2014. Any American who actually has a half million in savings and a mortgage free house but fails to buy health insurance is both A) exceedingly rare, and B) exceedingly stupid.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
you might save 100s of thousands more living and working in the US, but get unlucky and lose it all because of illness.
That's complete nonsense. While in a country as large as the US you're going to find some extreme examples of just about everything, the percentage of Americans who can save "100s of thousands" but who do not have health insurance is microscopic.
BathroomFew1757@reddit
That stat is so overused and misleading. It comes from people who are not properly insured. Make sure you are always insured and you’ll be fine. When you are unemployed, there are almost always avenues to get health insurance free or close to it. Some people are just completely flagrant and careless with their finances.
mfncl@reddit
Yes exactly. You hit your medical plans max out of pocket for the year and they'll cover everything. Worst case you wipe a few K off your savings.
Recent-Ad865@reddit
It’s misleading because they said “it’s due to health debt” as long as there was some health debt.
Someone’s business could go under but if they had $5 dentist debt they’d be categorized as “bankruptcy caused by healthcare debt”
Nicadreaming@reddit
As the person below said, the 40% number is BS. As usual, it is politically motivated science. Do we have any other type of science these days 🤷♂️ The real number is about 15%. And studies shows there is more personal bankruptcies in Canada than the USA. In Canada medical is “free”. As a Canadian, I can’t assure you that our medical system ain’t free 🙄
rlstrader@reddit
Almost everyone in Canada still pays private insurance through their employer, and regularly pay for private care because the public system can't care for them.
Gullible-Argument334@reddit
... because neolibs (ie conservatives) have been purposefully underfunding the healthcare system to open a secondary market for the private healthcare industry
rlstrader@reddit
I've heard it's particularly acute in Ontario.
UnderstandingLoud317@reddit
Not sure I believe this. What's your source? I have a large network of family and friends in Canada and none of them have ever used private health care.
rlstrader@reddit
I'm Canadian. Worked in the health care sector for over a decade. I visit every month and have a network of around 30 family and friends.
Artichoke-Ok@reddit
I think the average person is a lot better off in most (northern) European countries. If you're exceptional at your job and you don't mind having poor work/life balance and you want to milk every penny out of your career, you are better off in the US. Personally, I find US work culture extremely toxic and socially unjust for the vast majority of the population. I'd rather have more of a personal life and not have to worry about being laid off any time it suits the company.
Informal_Radio_2819@reddit
Agreed. Quality of life *at the median* is higher in the wealthier parts of Europe than in the United States. More leisure. Less crime. Less work stress. More financial security even if a bit less "stuff" (electronic toys, clothes, insanely fancy appliances, etc).
Grey_sky_blue_eye65@reddit
I would agree with you here. The average person is better off in Europe due to safety net. I would change the exceptional at your job to simply just being in a high demand/well paying field. Even if you're getting okay reviews, if you're in a high demand field you will just make substantially more in the US. And you don't have to have poor work life balance either depending on the industry. I do find that the older I get, the more willing I am to simply push back on things that would negatively affect my wlb.
tarbinator@reddit
This is exactly what I want, too.
CaptainCosmodrome@reddit
I've spent the last 3 years carefully planning and researching for my move to Denmark, so these are just general figures, but my understanding is a move from midwest US to Copenhagen ends up being a wash because you trade health care costs and car ownership costs for higher taxes and slightly higher cost of living (groceries, clothes, and furniture are all more expensive). I'm not planning on owning a car after I move, so in my case that cost in the US factors into my savings.
There are ancillary benefits as well, like more vacation (5-6 weeks minimum, depending on position), much better public transportation, biking as a transportation option, no medical debt risk if you need to use the ER, and others.
As far as my understanding of taxes, since Denmark has higher taxes, you are more likely to pay more than in the US, which results in a credit against your US taxes. There's also the "foreign earned income exclusion" which can reduce your overall federal tax bill.
I have heard of some US expats in Denmark that their US taxes are minimal or zero. Those same people have said their income as far as take-home pay was a lateral move. Granted, this is just Denmark, so other European countries will vary.
New_handle_@reddit
Are you relying on a job opportunity that will sponsor a visa to move? My partner and I are US-based and have been researching a move to Copenhagen for the last year. We are finding it difficult to be considered as applicants who require visa sponsorship.
CaptainCosmodrome@reddit
Yes, I will be, but my job is on their list of highly in demand fields. I'm fairly confident I won't have an issue finding employment once I get serious about applying and am closer to my prospective move date. International telecommuting still seems to be something even large companies are not interested in.
ericblair21@reddit
Unless you own your own business and have some tax breaks in Europe, you're very unlikely to owe any US income tax. There's a $120k earned income exclusion right off the top, and US income tax in excess of that can be cancelled out by the income tax you pay on it in Europe. Many European countries don't tax interest income up to a certain amount and the US does tax all of it, but you've also got a standard deduction on the 1040 that will take care of it unless you've got a huge wad of cash sitting around.
Tinelover@reddit
One huge advantage of working in the US vs Europe is the much higher possibility of really making it and building generational wealth. I’m from Europe, worked in the US and will cross $20m net worth this year before age 40. Would not have been possible in Europe.
m0nsieurp@reddit
You are an outlier since you worked in finance. Every walking man in the US is worth 20 million USD? Get real please.
Looking at your Reddit history, you made your money in HK and not in the US. You're off topic.
Tinelover@reddit
m0nsieurp@reddit
Can't believe I'm lectured by someone with survivorship bias.
Since your reading skills at top notch, go read the recent Credit Suisse Global Wealth report. Actual data backed with actual number instead of "I think so" and "maybe"s.
Tinelover@reddit
Every wealth report shows that the top 1% in the US is richer in both income and wealth than their counterparts in Europe, which corroborates my point. How exactly does the report support your argument?
m0nsieurp@reddit
You know the US dollar is the world's reserve currency, right? No matter how hard everyone else tries, the US will always come out ahead in this game.
Tinelover@reddit
Of course. So what exactly are you disagreeing with me on? That the US is far from perfect? That the US is not great for a person with mediocre ability? That you can live an easier life in Europe? Agree, agree and agree. The ONLY thing I pointed out is that it’s much easier making VERY high incomes in the US. Do you disagree with that part?
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Wow that’s so cool! You are right that’s harder to do in Europe- it happens but much rarer
I love that both places exist- if you want to hustle you can live in USA - if you want la dolce vita you have Europe!
Tinelover@reddit
You’re absolutely right - and I’ll probably move back to Europe in the next few years and focus on supporting social projects and enjoying life.
In some ways, my example shows why the US is richer than Europe - I worked my ass off in the US, which I probably won’t do in Europe. On the other hand, I (hopefully) will do more social good in Europe, reinforcing Europe as a place with more social equity.
In both cases, I’m partially responding to existing incentives.
Komorbidity@reddit
I’ve seen some good comparisons between Germany/France and the US. Conclusion is that euro families tend to win out over US families while US single your better off. The caveat is the US single is excluding some costs that they should probably be paying for.
From personal experience I know in European salaries tend to be lower than their US counterparts. Sure their are exceptions but I think that is pretty true to varying degrees across Europe. I also think it’s kind of meaningless unless you are a us citizen wanting to work in Europe or vice versa.
One thing I appreciate living both in the us and abroad is how do I value my money. I think in the US there is a lot pressure and marketing to spend your money on low/short-term value and trivial conveniences and on top of that invest poorly.
I think a good way to analyze it without getting too deep into the weeds is factor in your professional opportunities here and there, your values(what you want to spend your money on), and whether you are a wage earner or in the capital class.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Yah i definitely notice Americans feel a need to buy lots of meaningless stuff or have a house that is absolutely massive but not necessarily well made.
Like ppl say having a child is expensive but the smoking of gadgets Americans buy for a baby is insane imo😂
Tall-Ad895@reddit
American middle class is nonexistent at this point so most Europeans are wealthier by comparison.
yesitsmenotyou@reddit
Moved from the US to Norway, kept the same high income job in the US. So our tax withholding happens in the US, is paid to the US, and then we have to pay some extra to Norway to cover the difference. So it’s been very easy to see exactly how much more we are paying to Norway. It is a large sum annually, yes, but we are no longer paying state income tax, or the high property taxes we had there, health insurance premiums and copays (which were considerable with a child with type 1 diabetes). Home and car insurances are considerably less, and our future college expenses (x 4 kids) will be virtually nothing compared to what we would have paid in the states.
And it’s a lot of nickel and dime stuff, too. School costs, for instance. Our back to school shopping for all 4 kids’ notebooks and 800 pencils and this and that and the other really added up in the US. Here, they’re expected to come with a pencil case and backpack, and a pair of shoes that are only worn indoors, and that’s it. Pretty much everything is provided by the schools.
I have never done a full line item comparison, but even with the fat tax bills that we are paying additionally here, in the highest bracket, I definitely don’t feel like we have less in our pockets every month. Our standard of living has improved and nothing about our day to day spending has changed. There are so many variables and this may not be true for all situations, but this is the case for my family.
m0nsieurp@reddit
But I thought Norway was a socialist country and the average Norwegian is broke? /s
theandrewparker@reddit
If you do the math, living in high-tax states like NY and CA, you're actually paying equal or more in tax than you are in some European countries. I literally did this math with $200,000 and $1,000,000 incomes in Spain vs. these two places the other day. You'd keep more in Spain, and you'd have to still pay for all the things the Spanish government would (sort of) provide
Of course, there are also places like Scandinavia where the taxes are exorbitant and there's really no justifying it.
m0nsieurp@reddit
A friend of mine who lived and worked in those two states also arrived at the same conclusion.
Needless to say, he moved to Germany about 2 years ago.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
I actually live in Sweden and taxes here make more sense than in England - England has expensive daycare, terrible public schools ( in many areas), expensive university tuition, poor quality but expensive housing.
Sweden isn’t perfect but it’s probably one of the best run western countries
theandrewparker@reddit
wow…yeah makes total sense.
physboy68@reddit
Easier way to put your statement is: England is one of the worst run western countries.
Efficient-Neat9940@reddit
You have more take home income but also debt to pay off.
ckn@reddit
really depends on the role and where in the world.
CTO/CISO/CIO pay in the USA is 2-3x that of Europe in General.
Developer and other technical individual contributor, maybe 1.5-2x the pay, depending on where and with what.
I left the US for Sweden in 2009 and as CTO type, I had a 66.5% pay decrease. I've since moved on and brought that up to 30% below US salary for similar role and dont really care if i get back to US salary.
Yeah cost of living was lower over here in EU, taxes lower over there in US, and overall, the codified work life balance is why I stay here. I can say no to 100 hour work weeks, and often do.
jenn4u2luv@reddit
Not for me.
I moved from NYC to London as a non-resident of both (cities’) countries. Went from 55% (NYC) to 58% (London) takehome pay on a similar salary.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
So you have more disposable income in the uk?
jenn4u2luv@reddit
Much more, yes. Took me 16 months to save $100k in the US. In the UK, it only took me 10 months.
Navelgazed@reddit
We were taking home close to that amount in the US and now much less in Europe. We paid off our mortgage and filled our kids’ college account before moving. Our lifestyle has not changed, but we do have significant rental income from our house (with no mortgage).
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
You don’t need a college account in Belgium?
Navelgazed@reddit
To go to English or American universities you do. Belgian universities are not that cheap for Americans either. Also, I personally find the whole process of passing a small minority of students through programs pretty incomprehensible.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
Your kids aren’t Belgian? There are some amazing universities in Europe, including French speaking universities (that are free!).
Navelgazed@reddit
I don’t know why people think universities are free in Europe for non-Europeans. For some context: to top off my kids college fund in the US took 15 years and that makes us very high earners. At 15, they are not fluent in the local language in 2 years and the English language programs are very limiting.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
I didn’t say that, I thought you may have been there long enough for your kids to become citizens. And they are in some countries - Germany comes to mind.
Navelgazed@reddit
That’s why I gave you context. It is almost 300,000$ to pay for college in the US I am frugal and have a good career. But almost no Americans could save that much in a college fund and move to Europe when their kids are young enough to acquire the language and get citizenship. They are mutually exclusive except for the very wealthy.
mandance17@reddit
Yes I had way more money in the US than Europe but it depends what job you have. But now I have a remote US job in Europe so it’s the best solution imo
easysmom@reddit
How did you find a remote US job in Europe?
mandance17@reddit
I’m from the US so I had alot of connections from there already
easysmom@reddit
I’m American. I want to figure out how to get to Europe or the Mediterranean.
a_library_socialist@reddit
Be experienced, and recognize that demanding you can live overseas will reduce your job prospects by 75% or more. Which also means your salary will take a hit most likely.
It's doable, but it means job searches take a long time, and you'll need to walk through lots of employers. You'll want to tell them you're lookng for B2B and 1099.
easysmom@reddit
Great advice. Thanks!
mandance17@reddit
Ah well first I had a local job that sponsored my residence permit so maybe you have to start there to legally be allowed to live in Europe
easysmom@reddit
Ok well, good for you!!!
numice@reddit
How hard is it to land a remote US job? I find that many remote position require the applicants to reside in the country.
mandance17@reddit
I was lucky to find one that has no physical location and is entirely remote
LinguisticsIsAwesome@reddit
Are you on 1099 or W2? I’m also an American in Europe and am curious as to how others have a remote US job over here
mandance17@reddit
W8ben-e
John198777@reddit
So how do you pay taxes in Europe with a remote US job? It's not usually legal as your employer needs to respect local tax and employment law.
a_library_socialist@reddit
I do the same - my US clients pay my US company, which pays me, and I respect local tax and employment law.
There are companies like Oyster which will handle this for you, but they charge much more than needed, and having your own corp in the US can be very helpful in reducing the annoying US global taxation.
John198777@reddit
That's different because you are talking about US clients and not your US employer.
A lot of people who do what you do are working without a work or entrepreneur/self-employment visa though.
MissAdventuresofEBJ@reddit
I get paid 50% in usd and 50% in euros (live in Europe). My take home in euros is €400 less than the usd half each month. But you have to consider what’s included. My medical care is included with my taxes in Europe, so that’s a huge part of the difference.
jcsladest@reddit
Generally, yes. But obviously not everybody. Even most Americans don't realize how much free cas flow they have because they simply spend so much.
boxesofcats@reddit
And they don’t save for retirement
prettyprincess91@reddit
I don’t find this to be true at all. Every American I know saves AF for retirement - maxing 401K, Roth IRA, etc.
Europeans, including myself, do the absolute minimum for pension sacrifice. We don’t have money leftover to save.
My ex pat Brit friend in Dubai said the same - none of his friends actively invest. All the Americans he knows of the same age do - whether indexed mutual funds or ETFs.
boxesofcats@reddit
True for the upper middle class — the people you’ll work with as expats. Most Americans don’t actively save for retirement though.
a_library_socialist@reddit
And lots of that cash isn't really "free". You get it, and you hand it to the landlord, bank, or hospital.
SeanBourne@reddit
Speaking as someone who has earned in the US and in Australia, yes the take home pay is significantly higher, especially for skilled work (which is where the benefits of a high paying, low tax system come in).
Every year in the US, my total assets grew visibly - just off accumulation, without even accounting for investment growth. (The issue for many Americans is there’s a very high propensity to spend rather than save, and this has gotten significantly worse during the instagram era. If you can avoid this, you can sock away money in the US at a good clip.)
Australia, which is lower comp than the US, but higher than Europe, and higher tax than the US, but lower than Europe, there’s some growth, but it’s so much slower. Taxes are already a significant drag, the cost of everything is higher, and the compensation is lower.
I’d not relish the idea of trying to be a self-made man in Europe, and especially not in the Nordics.
mfncl@reddit
Overall payroll taxes are less but you need to look at a balance of take home pay, cost of living expenses and salary (work opportunity) compared to Europe to determine the amount of disposable income you have.
US salaries for skilled workers are significantly higher than their European counterparts across many sectors (such as tech, pharma). CoL is generally higher, but this is heavily area dependent, and is less relevant now that many roles are remote.
Overall if I'd have stayed in Europe I would not have as rapid career progression as I have had here.
To go through your expenses specifically:
* Car: cheaper than Europe. Gasoline, auto/road taxes less. Better financing terms also (but highly subjective). The negative is that there is little public transport so you NEED a car if you don't live in Manhattan or DC.
* Health insurance: Employers typically pay most of the premiums but there will be several 100 dollars/month salary deduction. And then there will be deductibles/co-insurance due. So yes, a lot more here. But on the positive side, there is a lot of choice and you don't generally need referrals to see specialists. Also low waiting times.
* College: Yup. I have college savings accounts for my kids. Would I have these in Europe? Yes but I wouldn't need to save as much.
* Maternity/Daycare: Yes this is a second mortgage. In many cases its not worth the households lower earner to get a job as there wouldn't be much left once daycare costs have been accounted for.
* Property tax: My taxes are about the same as my UK council tax was. Difference here is that I have a large house compared to a pokey apartment.
* Housing (I'll add this since you don't mention it): The USA has 30 year fixed mortgages, so great for homeowners. If you are in a low or medium CoL area you will get a decent amount of house for your money. Much more floor space than Europe, bigger yard etc
SpecificBee6287@reddit
A car can be a lot or almost free—insurance varies dramatically also. You don’t need a car in the USA. How many Manhattans have cars? I can cycle virtually anywhere in my midsize metropolitan if I wanted to, but I’m not financially prohibited from owning and driving a car in the USA.
College is not required for a good job. I make well over six figures and no degree required. Daycare is free—it’s called a parenting co-op. More wholesome for your kids also. Private school?? I mean why unless you choose to live in a bad area? A decent employer provides maternity/paternity leave.
You are framing the expenses, but most, if not all, those expenses are optional. Even healthcare. There’s a clinic down the street from me that offers unlimited visits with a membership fee of $90/month. It includes all labs and diagnostics and usually no waiting. Or you can just pay cash outright. I can get an MRI or CT for just $350. GoodRX gets you dirt cheap prescriptions most of the time with no insurance.
In Europe, you get what you get. In the USA, you get to choose to spend a lot or a little—the choice is yours. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.
prettyprincess91@reddit
All of this is true. People choose to spend money on things they value - they are not necessities. But I also have no idea why all my family in the UK pays expensive private tuitions - they absolutely did not have to.
kitanokikori@reddit
You're not wrong, Americans don't consider these "taxes", so they are constantly comparing apples to oranges when determining cost of living and coming up with the wrong conclusions, or they are of a certain demographic (young men) that can get away with not paying for a lot of these costs (can skip out on good health insurance even though it's wildly unsafe, don't have any kids, they rent so they don't pay prop tax, etc)
prettyprincess91@reddit
Why just young men - it applies to anyone young healthy, without kids. Considering more women than men have degrees - most of the expats I know living in Europe are women.
kitanokikori@reddit
I only mentioned men because women usually have more healthcare needs (birth control, etc), so they can't really do the "Don't pay for health insurance" trick as much, but yeah, you're generally right
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
I generally agree but want to point out I haven’t seen a doctor since turning 18 and don’t use contraceptives nor do a growing number of younger women
But I think women in general are less reckless and more likely to opt for more expensive healthcare packages and consider things like maternity leave
prettyprincess91@reddit
It generally takes two people to make a baby so things like maternity leave will usually matter to the person also impregnating the woman.
Women who do not want babies generally don’t care except from a “we’re a developed country we should have this.”
Except I’m from the USA and we have nothing but now I live in the UK. Not for the shit NHS, this is just where I DN from.
prettyprincess91@reddit
Makes sense and I even got my iud just before I left. But I left the US for the UK and live in a country with free (ie way more expensive because I pay £500/month for NHS).
I would recommend anyone doing travel like this to get an iud - it’s difficult remembering to take a pill when your time zones are constantly changing.
Weekly_Beautiful_603@reddit
This boggles my mind, as a British person who didn’t have to pay for birth control until I moved overseas. Not saying the NHS doesn’t have problems, but they’re fantastic if you’re young, poor and horny.
mr10683@reddit
Don't mean to make this discussion even more difficult, but there are some qualitative metrics that should be taken into account regarding what you get for your discretionary money. For instance, to get the same quality food you get in the EU, you need to spend 2X or 3X in the US. Another example is that many European countries have tons of easily accessible third spaces, which are virtually non existent in the US. Doing anything costs apples to apples way more. Also the accessibility of cultural happenings is much more limited in the US, spatially. And where it is available it's much more expensive. For instance, if you compare ticket prices to most everything (like performances, museums) they tend to be much more expensive in the US.
Finally, the added annoyance of having to financially plan everything is pretty damn taxing mentally and eats your time. This should factor in as well.
ThrowawayANarcissist@reddit
Yes.
I have lived in both the U.S. and various regions of Europe, have relatives in different regions of Europe. You definitely make more money in the U.S. and the average standard and quality of living in the U.S. tends to be better. It is also a lot easier in the U.S. to earn, invest, and keep generational wealth.
No-vem-ber@reddit
I live in the netherlands and have a US job (remote). I earn about double what I would earn if I had a local dutch job, doing the same work. I'm sure it's not the same for every job - I work in tech. Just one data point for you.
PatternNo4266@reddit
Can I ask if you’re working as a contractor? (1099?) I’m trying to figure out a w2 job remotely rn
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
You are living the dream then lol
PatternNo4266@reddit
IMHO if you are young and single and have a high paying job, it’s easier to stockpile money in the US. But whenever that changes you’ll get hit with major expenses. You have a medical problem? $$ You have kids? Daycare is $$. You get laid off? $$
The salaries on here are abnormally high IMO. Most of the European expats I meet in NYC have no intention of in being in the US after ~40. They’re grabbing an experience and maybe some money. In all honesty I am jealous, I think I’d rather have a social security net
I am saying this as someone making less than $200k. I’ve worried a lot this year about being laid off and burning through my savings.
dallyan@reddit
Maybe I just worked shit jobs in the US but my wages were hella low. I guess all those high paying jobs are for doctors, lawyers, software engineers, etc.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
Generally the people that are able to become "expats" elsewhere are those that have aforementioned high paying jobs, so in reality we're seeing survivorship bias here.
dallyan@reddit
Yeah. I’m one of those dum dums that married into expatdom, not in search of a high-paying job.
CranberryOk607@reddit
Not only do we pay for everything that is included in the tax systems of social democracies, millions of people are excluded here in the states where in a social democracy, everyone has a base level of living as well. Nothing is perfect but remember pure capitalist systems as designed to consolidate wealth, and that is what we have in the US.
watchOS@reddit
Canadian living in the US, working for the same employer in both countries. Yes, the US is vastly more affordable for me, despite doing the same job. In the US, I was able to actually afford buying a house! In Canada, that was a pipe dream.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
A pay cut from Canada to USA? Interesting
How is that possible? I thought the USA paid more
I’ve heard about Canadian housing- sounds like a crazy situation
watchOS@reddit
It was a slight pay cut because they pay based on local area cost of living. After conversion, I found it to be a small pay cut, but the substantially lower cost of living made up for it big time.
jszly@reddit
So your middle paragraph is a gross generalization of the entire countries reality. For example, I do not need a car, my job pays insurance, i received scholarship for college, I rent, my job covers maternity leave and I would t choose private school for my children when there are fairly good public schools in my hometown. I’m in the low six figures range.
Every situation is different. You have to remember the US is comprised with 50 different states, thousands of cities and hundreds of thousands of different employers with their own offerings. Sure your avg person who is on hourly wage is not coming out on top financially here, but again, the variables vary soooo widely
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Yah I’ve never lived in the USA so I can only hypothesise
That’s Amazing that you manage without a car and have managed to avoid most of the expenses I associate with America!
And yes if you live in an area w good public schools you are laughing
jszly@reddit
Good enough….we will be leaving the country hopefully for the longterm. trying to figure out how to not take a massive pay cut and feel it because yeah we are doing pretty well here financially
PanickyFool@reddit
Yes.
A million times yes. I took home significantly more in the USA than in NL.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
I wouldn’t say it’s highly regressive. It’s used to pay unemployment benefits, pensions, skills and education etc, which your employer would otherwise have to pay.
bobbykid@reddit
Any retail or purchase tax that's applied to all goods and services is by definition regressive. It is proportionately a larger percentage of your income if your income is low.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
According to OECD research it’s roughly proportional or slightly progressive for the majority of countries.
PanickyFool@reddit
In the USA all of these are funded off of income (including payroll) taxes and property (wealth) taxes. Both of which are very progressive.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
Add sales tax in there. Other governments partially or even fully fund these things, the US does but not to the same extent at all.
PanickyFool@reddit
A tax, is a tax, is a tax.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
Yes?
bruhbelacc@reddit
If it's regressive, then it's good for high earners
loud_v8_noises@reddit
You’re definitely wrong.
Chitink@reddit
I look at it this way. College is one and done, lots and lots of people never have super expensive health expenses or if they do they have employer health care which covers all but like $2-5k.
My college was half a paid due to aid. I do have expensive property tax, but a good price and interest rate on my mortgage. My mother watched my son when I worked. My company provides maternity leave pay.
$40k for my college and $60k for my son, plus like $10k for private high school (only because I live in a major city, otherwise public would have been fine).
For like $110k total i am happy to keep 25% of my pay for my entire life. Even if I make $100k that's paid for in 5 years of working.
Would much rather self pay for all of those things and keep the extra 25% for the next 25 years of working.
Bro_with_passport@reddit
The US is far too (economically) heterogeneous to give a straight forward answer. I’ve lived in areas where having less than $100k per year is basically poverty. On the flip side, I was once living on less than $30k per year while saving to start my business, living in a small southern city; I felt very comfortable with that too.
leroyskagnetti@reddit
This is an important point that not enough people are considering. The cultural differences, urban infrastructure, access to resources and overall quality of life is wayyy different from region to region.
Slimslade33@reddit
No car no health insurance, minimal college debt, don’t own property etc. that’s the only way I was able to survive.
Letzgirl@reddit
Here’s the average net earnings per country. https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/08/european-average-salary-rankings-where-does-your-country-stand
New-Perspective8617@reddit
I think it’s easier to save a ton more in the US. Masters degree in a (non tech) field with 200k base salary plus 20k in employer retirement contributions to my 401k. In 2.5 years of work since my Masters ended, I already have 130k in total savings under my own name. It’s insane. Planning my move to Germany and I will literally get a 75% pay cut
proof_required@reddit
I have been working in tech for almost 11 years now and my saving isn't even that. And I am supposed to be making more than the local average.
the_coffee_maker@reddit
Curious to see you budget
proof_required@reddit
If you make so little after taxes and rent, you can't really budget much. It's only in last 2-3 years of my career that I make somewhat ok salary that I can save ~1K/month. For starting 2-3 years of my career, when I was in Spain, I made like 1200/month. 500 Euros was my rent and 200-300 Euros groceries + utilities. Then I had to take some trips back home to visit my family. So I had hardly any money in my account.
Then last 4-5 years, I was making 3k/month. Rent was like ~1K. Groceries like 200-300 Euros. I saved like ~1K/month. So that would be like ~60K.
the_coffee_maker@reddit
ahh shit my bad fam, completely forgot I was in the expat sub. But I understand, I just met someone during San Fermin that is a software engineer bringing in $40k. Lo siento
ericblair21@reddit
I'm a techie and it's a similar deal. A position that pays around $200k/yr gross in the US (DC area) will be 5k eur/month gross in Germany (Munich area).
nderflow@reddit
Don't forget to factor in the need for a more substantial savings cushion just in case you lose your job.
rlstrader@reddit
That's true everywhere.
HVP2019@reddit
Depends how high unemployment is. High unemployment means that too often people live off welfare. In many European countries youth unemployment is very high.
FifiLeBean@reddit
There's a lot of interesting math going on here, but I would like to also add in risk.
IF you are employed full time in USA, you likely get "full" health insurance. However, that means very different coverage for everyone. And it's possible that you are not fully covered, especially if you have a big health concern. So then you are not just paying copays, you are also doing a lot of work advocating for yourself or your family member.
My sister had to do a lot of work to research her daughter's cancer diagnosis, advocate for the best treatment, inform the doctor of a new treatment, travel across this giant country to get that treatment, provide extra housing for 2 months while her daughter got the extra treatment, and then come back for regular chemo and radiation treatment. The mountain of paperwork she had to do for the insurance company was a full time job. She literally had to do a ton of work to keep her daughter alive. She did, but God it was heartbreaking that she had to. I haven't asked how much it cost out of pocket, but I am certain that it was huge.
If your job ends, your insurance ends. You can pay approximately $700-1000 per month for a basic health insurance until you get a job again.
Most Americans are pretty anxious that one medical emergency could damage them financially. This risk affects us pretty deeply.
from-VTIP-to-REFRAD@reddit
Yes, on average you ABSOLUTELY take home more pay on the USA.
Most US citizens fall in the 22% federal tax bracket. Excluding living in a state that fucks you on state income tax, contrast that with the fact that many European countries hover near a 50% federal tax rate.
Salaries are also much lower in even powerhouse countries like Germany, compared to the US. A $120k job in the USA might be $75-85k in US Dollars in Germany. Here in Europe, it’s obviously very location dependent, but rent and groceries are only a bit cheaper. I pay WAY more for utilities, electricity, vehicle insurance, vehicle upkeep and gasoline.
Possibly the only superior thing in Europe is the health care situation, but I’ve had exposure working with senior managers in European pharma, and the US market’s profitability is literally THE driver for them to innovate / invest € in R&D.
With all that being said, the food in the US is poison and the cultural environment is toxic af, and I couldn’t imagine going back.
senti_bene@reddit
Why is it poison? Please elaborate.
from-VTIP-to-REFRAD@reddit
Sure- there’s 100s of chemicals in the USA food supply chain that are banned in the EU.
The idea that there is thorough vetting on these chemicals’ effects is a bullshit farce (food companies were able to effectively lobby where almost everything can fall under an “assumed to be safe” category, which bypasses the FDA vetting chemicals)
Furthermore the ultra processing of food removes a large amount of nutritional value, which could partly be why people can’t stop eating (ie, you eat bleached processed bread and through millennia of evolved appetite regulation, your body assumes it’ll receive certain nutrients, so when it doesn’t, it sends signals to eat more)
Add onto that that these food corporations have teams of PhDs that engineer the processed food to be as addictive as possible with what’s current known about human dopamine rewards from consuming certain food categories
…I live in Spain where the food supply chain is largely clean and ultra processed food is not largely consumed. I am being dead ass fucking serious when I say I can go WEEKS without seeing a single fat person … I myself lost a fuck ton of weight without changing habits much just because of my change in diet… yet in the US, the societal response (prob due to money fueled messaging) is “body positivity” bullshit instead of taking a hard look at the filth that clogs up the food supply chain
senti_bene@reddit
Do you have any peer reviewed sources that can show how the quality of food between the 2 countries is different? Everything is a chemical, literally, regardless of whether it is in China or Zimbabwe. Saying “chemicals” is not really specific.
skylar0889@reddit
Live in Scandinavian Me and my husband have ca 90k/yearly before tax We have houseloan like 200k with normal house with 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. 2 cars electric &automat(no loans) Can travel ca 3-5 times a year. We love food, Husband into nature and hunting hobbies. We love to eat,we eat a lot of seafoods,meat and everything that we live to eat. We have savings like 20k and trying to save between 5k-10k /yearly for travelling together around the world before retirement. I have personal savings like 10k and some small stocks investment that I can use anytime. I'm Early 30s and he's late 30s. We don't worry the education of our kid,i don't worry hospitalizations. I feel blessed and grateful.
Life_Lawfulness8825@reddit
Not experienced living in the EU but have family in Italy. While the health care is universal doesn’t equate to better than the US. My daughter went running out of a hospital because of poor quality. I was able to find a doctor in the city that took private universal health care. A cousin had pink eye ( Naples area) and couldn’t get in to see a doctor. One of my Navy friends brought him eye drops from base. I think it depends on the country and region with health care. Many areas in the US are health and food deserts depending on where you live.
webbphillips@reddit
There are also several other factors that more conspire to nibble away at your income in the U.S. Advertisements and the culture in general manipulate people into overspending. Increased stress makes it harder to resist this constant manipulation. I'm a data scientist, had double the pre-tax salary in the SF bay area vs The Netherlands, and more takehome pay even including rent and healthcare, but I now have savings instead of debt, better healthcare, more living space, more free time, more time to cook instead of takeout, etc etc.
But it depends on the person. There are studies suggesting that young adults are accurate at knowing how important being somewhat wealthy will be too their happiness later in life. I never thought so, but someone who did think so might be happier in the U.S., provided their career goes according to plan.
danton_no@reddit
We are earning way less than 400k. We lived in Norway. Moved to NYC. You are wrong
tofulollipop@reddit
This is why we moved back. I have a graduate degree, worked in Spain for a few years with my wife. We were living paycheck to paycheck, maybe able to save a few $100/month if lucky. We were pretty comfortable but didn't have any money for luxuries or anything extra. When we moved back to the US, even though my wife doesn't work, my take home pay went up 5x from my salary in Spain. Even after maxing all my retirement accounts, I still am left with almost 3x what I made in Spain. Things are more expensive and there's more to pay for, but it's not even close to coming out even. I'm also not at a crazy high salary, I'm just clearing a little over 100k. Lastly in terms of vacation, in Spain I got 27 days off/year + national holidays. At my current job I get every othe Friday off and currently ~17 days of PTO/year + national holidays. It is less vacation time but I think I'm still coming out ahead overall
OhEssYouIII@reddit
It really depends. Might be why credit card debt keeps getting higher.
Unable_Tumbleweed364@reddit
I earn less in the US than my home country so no lol.
tossitintheroundfile@reddit
The only reason my take home pay is slightly less in Norway than in USA is because the nok is completely in the shitter. But before that, I was definitely ahead in Europe, especially compared to California.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Curious what field you are in? I’m guessing not IT bc that is one area where USA knocks Europe out the park
tossitintheroundfile@reddit
Oil and gas… just like all the expats ;)
xufeelinlukyx@reddit
We save a ton more in Singapore vs. the USA. No capital gains tax and a laughable local income tax. Definitely lives up to its reputation as a tax haven. My wife is Singaporean so once we moved she gave up her US green card and has no more tax liability in the US. For comparison we paid 54k SGD in tax on ~375k SGD in income. We would have paid about 2x this back in the USA.
moonangeles@reddit
I didn’t calculate like for like as I was in a different tax bracket in Europe and had different expenses. Having said that, you get paid a lot more in the US. Whether you’re willing to take advantage of the earning potential (work culture is different), is more up to the person and how they prefer to live/work. For those who want to, there are more opportunities to capitalize on in the US. There are also cons that come with that.
There were times in my career when worked more to get to this point but overall, I have a fairly good work life balance in the US and a good lifestyle despite living in a HCOL city. My friends who have had similar careers in Europe have to worry about finances more than I do.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Yah maybe European misjudge how good work life balance in the USA can be if you position yourself well
PoolSnark@reddit
$400k is crushing it in the US, even is big expensive cities. And a job that pays that much probably includes health insurance coverage.
Flustered-Flump@reddit
Much better off in the USA (personally) - that’s not because of taxes but rather I just get higher pay and more disposable income. You’re right - when it comes to taxes + things like health insurance, it balances out. COL for me is much better in MN vs Southern England.
fraujun@reddit
100%. No where else in the world is it possible to make decent money like you can in the US
Puzzled-Put-7077@reddit
In the US I earn double what I did in the UK and pay half the tax. Baring in mind I laid 50% in the UK between tax and NI. I had a car in the UK and the cost of one here is similar but I live in DC and cycle everywhere and just hire a car for weekends so I don’t need to own one. I couldn’t get to work on my bike in the UK and public transport was terrible. It’s great where I live now. Health insurance is included with my job so overall I am much better off. We worked it out a few weeks ago and think that with all costs included you’d be about 20% better off here.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Yah England is this half way house between USA and Europe so you don’t really get the amazing safety net you get in the Europe but you also don’t get the great pay of USA
ulumulu23@reddit
Most people that are making the move across the Atlantic in either direction likely have better paying jobs, its difficult to get a Visa otherwise. When it comes to better paying jobs I found I could make 2-3 times more in the US but only in major population centers. Living in places like NYC or San Francisco on the other hand would mean paying 5-10 as much for housing. As such yes its more money but also significantly higher costs.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Once you factor in higher costs tho, do you still have more disposable income?
Plus the fact you need a car ( to me that’s a negative but some love driving I guess)
ericblair21@reddit
Lots of people in Europe love driving, if you've ever been on the roads at rush hour there. As a middle class expat in Europe, everyone I worked with had at least one car.
You can get around without one in most places, but you're far better off then living in a fairly dense city if you don't want your life to revolve around the train or bus schedule. You can use hourly car rental in many cities when you need it, but you'll need to either remember or learn how to drive a manual transmission since that's still a thing there. You can get automatic transmissions, but it can be hit or miss and possibly ridiculously expensive (since they're targeting "rich" North Americans).
ulumulu23@reddit
Nah exactly my point. I am better off in Europe. Housing is cheap, don't need a card or extra health insurance and I can still save enough for early retirement..
eurogamer206@reddit
Yes. In live in the Netherlands and I earn less than half of what I earned in Seattle. Plus my tax rate was lower in the U.S. In Washington state there is no state income tax and property taxes are low. Even with healthcare costs and sales tax and tipping, I was taking about 3x what I take home in NL. Here my mortgage is 50% higher too. However I moved because I wanted to experience life in Europe and I didn’t want to worry about reproductive rights or mass shootings.
maestro_curioso@reddit
Are you experiencing life as you wanted? If so, how? Besides reproductive rights.
Science_Teecha@reddit
My husband and I are planning to look for jobs in Europe (looking in about 12 countries). Here is yesterday’s conversation, condensed from an hour: Me: living in the US is unsustainable and our kids have no future here. They will only ever be able to afford to live in dreadful areas of the country. Also, the right wing is taking over. Him: But everywhere is falling apart. Me: That’s true, but I’d rather spend the end of days surrounded by beautiful architecture, public transportation, and easy travel opportunities. Here, it’s endless swaths of strip malls and Applebee’s with small oases of interest.
We make good money here. But in addition to all the expenses others have listed, we pour so much of it into our house and yard. Stuff is constantly breaking. We just dropped $16K on a new fence (not out of vanity but necessity, and that was the cheapest option). I dream of living in a well-built apartment with no car or yard. Sigh.
Everyone is different! I’m living lots of people’s dream. But I’ve lived in several other countries and I know that this is not mine.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
How can a fence cost 16k!
Science_Teecha@reddit
DUDE I KNOW. I said the same thing! I was expecting 5k, which still would have sucked. But the whole thing was rotting and falling over, and we have dogs that could slip out. There’s always the lame “supply chain” excuse, and materials costs have shot up, but I suspect most of that is labor. I say “labor” but I doubt the two Salvadoreans who did the work made thousands. 🙄
American business, ladies and gentlemen. ~~Extortion~~ I mean, the free market makes a lot of people quite rich.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
I hope it’s a beautiful fence that’s all I can say 😂
Science_Teecha@reddit
It’s a drastic improvement over the previous abomination. But yeah.
^^get me out of here^^
ericblair21@reddit
I moved to Europe from the US, and it was a great experience, but please please please understand that it's not a vacation anymore when you get there and the first six months to a year will be rough. Being an immigrant is difficult, dealing with visas and local registration and landlords and banks and insurance is complicated and full of Catch-22s for people who haven't lived there all their lives. Learn as much as you can before you get on the ground. But it does settle down and you'll get into the daily routine.
Science_Teecha@reddit
No I know— I’m not that person. I lived 5 years in Germany, 4 in the UK, and 2 in Thailand (where we learned all of those lessons the hard way). I am well aware of the challenges!
eurogamer206@reddit
There are pros and cans. It’s only been 1.5 years and it doesn’t feel like home. I miss my friends and family. I miss the PNW mountains and sea and forests. But in other ways I am better taken care of. I have unlimited sick leave (including caring for sick family members) which has been convenient as my husband is dealing with a long illness. I can hop on a train and be in Paris in 4 hours if I wanted. And I don’t need a car because I can get around easily and safely by bicycle.
zmzzx-@reddit
As someone who also grew up in WA I’d love to hear more about your perspective. I’ve been applying to software engineer positions in NL recently.
How high does the salary need to be in the Netherlands to be comfortable in your opinion? It feels strange applying for less money and hoping it’ll be enough.
eurogamer206@reddit
It depends where you live. Amsterdam will be more expensive than other cities. But the train system isn’t bad so you can live in Den Haag or Utrecht or Noord and easily commute to Amsterdam center if that’s where your office is. If you have kids and need more than 2 bedrooms you’ll be paying €3k or more for a decent apartment in Amsterdam. My husband is also an engineer and the salaries are variable depending on company. Some pay 70k while others pay above 100k. And he has 12 years in the industry. You’ll also want to try for the 30% ruling which lowers your tax liability for the first 5 years of your residency (rules just changed so it is no longer a flat 30% for all 5 years fyi, but less than that beyond the first year). Also keep in mind that most landlords require your pay to be 3-4x the monthly payment.
eurogamer206@reddit
I’ll DM you
buitenlander0@reddit
Cars are more expensive in Europe. My health insurance is not any cheaper in the Netherlands. College is expensive in the US, correct, but once you pay off your loans thats not a factor. I agree property taxes are higher in US. Daycare is also expensive in Netherlands.
I'm not saying one system is better than the other, but if you are able to stay out of debt, then having a higher earning potential is the quickest way to building wealth.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Ah I guess it varies from European country
In Sweden daycare is 100 dollars a month per child and very high quality, also you don’t need private schooling here as schools are great
Netherlands could be different
ericblair21@reddit
Child care costs vary enormously from one EU country to the next, so it's impossible to generalize. Also, it may be "free" on paper, but (like in Germany) there may be no slots available anywhere around your home if you didn't get on a list before your kids were even born, so you're stuck paying for it anyways. This is a warning to new expats who might think otherwise: please do your research before you make decisions and assume nothing.
buitenlander0@reddit
Yes, public schools are quality in NL too and you have school choice And yes, I was able to send my daughter to a good pre-school starting at age 2.5 for very cheap (4 half days a week). There are definitely perks relative to the US.
Fun_Abies_7436@reddit
Yes. European taxes are insane for high-earners
jaysrapsleafs@reddit
not everyone is also paying for private school - you can move to the US as a degreed person with a job. Health insurance is a rounding error if you work for a company with a good plan (that's pretty common). Now once you have kids - with lack of parental leave you may be used to, cost of daycare or any inhome help, and anxiety over gun violence in schools, then maybe the calculus changes. But if you have skills, young and no kids, you're not gonna do much better in the whitecollar universe.
CurSpider@reddit
As expat public school teachers (a couple) who left the USA a few years ago we certainly have much more take home pay outside the USA.
boxesofcats@reddit
This is a rare situation because teaching is one the few jobs with a pension in the USA. So immediate take home pay is lower but the long term pay is slightly better in the USA.
bruhbelacc@reddit
That's funny because it proves what I've thought for a while - Americans "savings" from the higher salaries are not savings in the European sense because half of them are your future pension, college fund or paying off college debt, emergency fund etc. The alternative to taxes is giving the same money to private insurance or something similar.
I always found Americans in movies who have a random 50-200K saved up rich, but I guess that's just your pension.
ericblair21@reddit
Median US social security monthly payments are around $1800 per month, which is comparable to most EU state pension payments. Yes, people always say that they don't think it's going to be there when they hit retirement age, but they've been saying the same thing for decades and Europeans (especially Germans) say the same thing about state pensions.
a_library_socialist@reddit
Most Americans can't do that - it's why we have lots of medical bankruptcies, and most can't afford a $500 emergency.
skyshock21@reddit
This is becoming more rare in the US as well because schools are requiring longer periods of service for a pension to even take effect. It used to be 10 years here, now it’s 30 or nothing!
nderflow@reddit
In the (EU) country I live in, teachers have final salary pensions (1/80 of salary at retirement for each year of service), which hardly any jobs offer any more.
maracay1999@reddit
This is really dependent on school district. A high school teacher in a place like Boston or Chicago will earn 80-100k which is a decent salary. But take an elementary teacher from a LcOl area? Very low salaries for sure
haionlyfe@reddit
It seems like you're discussing the financial aspects of living in the USA versus Europe. The cost of living, including expenses like health insurance and education, can vary widely between regions and impact overall disposable income significantly.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
But then generally places w higher costs of living will have lower pay right?
Other than Texas which seems to have high wages and low ish cost of living
Fine-Historian4018@reddit
I’ll give you one example of my household salary and expenses per year.
HHI: 250k. I pay roughly 30% in taxes for federal, state and local. Dual income household 1 child.
Mortgage (11 years left): 20k per year on a 4 bed 2 bath.
Cars: two paid off Toyotas. I spend about 5k insurance and gas.
Food and dining (half is discretionary since it’s mostly eating out and I shop at the high end grocery store): 30k per year.
Health costs: 4k year.
Daycare: 12k per year.
I saved about 100k last year. Net worth is at 500k at 35 and should be at a million by 40. This is not typical of course but a high income. At an upper middle class position, you are most certainly able to build more wealth than elsewhere in Europe. Whether that’s good for society is another question.
Pregnantwifesugar@reddit
I worked in California in nos in the UK.
The last time I worked it out (over 10 years ago) My take home pay was greater in the UK. I think if anyone including their cost for medical care over the year, I’d be surprised if figures weren’t close.
Affectionate_Age752@reddit
You will burn through your savings quickly on America, if you not a bad patch. The social safety net is non existent here.
keep_on_traveling@reddit
My partner is from the EU and we're sticking to the US for the foreseeable future. The money is just too good here. Both of us are in STEM / finance.
shopgirl56@reddit
It sucks here - they nickel and dime everyone into homelessness- it’s a broken system
larrykeras@reddit
You are wrong. Only illiterate people believe take-home earnings in Europe is higher.
All tax rates, and general economic data, are available on both sides of the atlantic.
You can do the math yourself.
1Angel17@reddit
Absolutely
TripGator@reddit
People with jobs such as doctors and engineers have a higher standard of living in the U.S. due to higher pay and lower taxes more than compensating for the things you mentioned. Many U.S. companies pay 80% of their employees health insurance (tax free), and the U.S. salaries are still higher.
HVP2019@reddit
In many European countries living with parents is more common so my expenses were lower.
We lived in a smaller apartment ( also typical) so it housing expenses were cheaper. And many other expenses were cheaper as well due to the fact of living in multigenerational household.
Unemployment is very high in some European countries so you have to factor possibility of not working and living of benefits and in between jobs.
In many European countries it is higher to invest. So less opportunities to grow wealth.
I lived more that 20 years in Europe and more 20 years in US.
Suspicious_Direction@reddit
For a like for like professional career, you will generally earn significantly more in the USA vs Europe yes...this is clear, you can test this simply by searching job sites for specific titles in the USA and then in Europe.
jaiunchatparesseux@reddit
I did because the tax rates in the UK are very high and if you’re a high earner overall taxation is less in the USA. My employer fronted most of my health insurance fees. Property tax is comparable to council tax fees here. Childcare between London and east coast USA is similar, basically a second mortgage, but I earn less in the UK (too much for any government assistance). My savings rate as a percentage of income was higher in Philadelphia than London for sure.
Spider_pig448@reddit
The things you mentioned are a small fraction of the additional pay when we're talking 20-30K+ salaries and Lowe taxes
RoseyOneOne@reddit
Average household savings rate in EU was 10-15%.
Average household savings rate in US was 2-5%.
*2023
https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/11/27/how-much-are-europeans-left-with-at-the-end-of-the-month#:\~:text=Most%20countries%20in%20the%20EU,September%202023%2C%20according%20to%20Statista.
-Allot-@reddit
I think the bell curve for different jobs is different. I’m no expert but in general if you have a high end / income job you will be way better off in US but if you are on the lower end it’s better in Europe. For an average middle class family I think Europe still is preferential. I do this comparison mainly to the better off areas / countries though. As Europe will vary much more internally than the states will.
Cevohklan@reddit
All those costs we have to pay in the EU, too. Do you think all those things are free ?
The salaries are much much lower. ( 50 % ) The cost of living is higher. And we pay much more taxes.
lionhydrathedeparted@reddit
Mostly you are better off even if you’re earning a lot less than 400k.
DeityOfYourChoice@reddit
It hugely depends, but salaries tend to be higher in the US. If you're a waiter in the US you are absolutely screwed, if you are an engineer you're killing it. We don't take care of the working class like many European countries do.
DivineAlmond@reddit
many of my burger friends and acquaintances mentioned exactly what you said for up to and including mid level positions
however things certainly change for the better for USians after you hit a certain experience/desirability threshold, they also mentioned
FishFeet500@reddit
A US friend makes significantly more, but also has to pay so much of it for healthcare, a car, and groceries, that when we sat and compared NL to the US, she’d be far off better in NL.
As i understand it, a lot of the stuff covered by taxation here, and the not needing a car, eats up much of the extra salary she has.
I guess it does depend on your financial situation, ie kids, or what benefits your job comes with but when we looked at leaving canada, the US was never on our list because we felt the salary bump wouldn’t be of much use.
As it is, she’s looking to expat life now, so…i guess the safe answer is “its different for everyone.”
a_library_socialist@reddit
the NL is a weird duck compared to lots of Europe - the healthcare is technically "private", but actually controls hospital costs.
So that leads lots of Dutch people to think that the systems are equivalent, and they're simply not. The health care costs, and how much is put onto the individual, is really hard for anyone who hasn't lived in the US with a family to understand.
FishFeet500@reddit
Yeah. I think her insurance payment even with employer contributions is close to 1k a month, with far longer wait times than i see here in NL. Or when i lived in canada.
I have friends selling popcorn and running gofundmes for their kid’s surgery fees in texas. Wtf.
a_library_socialist@reddit
Yeah, and that likely doesn't include the deductible and copays as well, which have become very significant since 2014.
SpyderDM@reddit
I think the taxes are less of the issue. The US taxes in lots of hidden ways. The bigger issue is that the US generally has much higher wages than Europe. People who are recruited to move to Europe are basically paid a US salary (to convince them to move), but then if they want to look for a new gig they're going to be offered European salaries.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Hmm most Americans I’ve met accepted lower wages as part of the deal bc living in Europe is seen as a fun experience
I’ve not met any Americans offered a relocation package with wages as generous as USA wages in Europe
SpyderDM@reddit
When I moved to Ireland from the US I was given a salary that directly competed with my good US salary, so it was certainly like that in my case.
Original-Storm-7593@reddit (OP)
Wow! Thats impressive! You must have been living life!
SpyderDM@reddit
Yeah, it was great until I was made redundant and had to take a 33% pay cut for my next gig!! Luckily I've done well with the new gig and have closed the gap over the past couple years lol.
girl_engineer@reddit
Obviously, it depends a lot on your personal situation: your specific location, age, overall health, and family structure. It also depends a lot on the US company you work for and how good their benefits are. I think Americans tend to exaggerate the costs stateside and that company packages often exceed what's provided by the state in Europe---but those benefits are tied to your job, which means you have lessened economic mobility and quality of life.
You also can't just compare numbers when the costs of living vary, across both the US and the EU. A better question is whether your purchasing power goes up or down. Personally, my purchasing power went up when I went to Europe, even though I took a paycut, but I went from a HCOL to a MCOL area.
proof_required@reddit
Talk about delusion. Seriously some of the Americans are so out of touch that it's just leaves people speechless. Why stop at 400K? How about 1 million. No wonder US is a poverty filled 3rd world country since hardly anyone makes 1 million USD. Yeah lot of sarcasm but I don't know how to answer such bait question.
painter_business@reddit
Depends
Chicago1871@reddit
I make way more than the european average or even American average but I work a lot.
Otoh I average about 10-12 weeks of unpaid vacation time a year, so it evens out.
GraceIsGone@reddit
I can only speak to our experience but yes, my husband makes a lot more money in the U.S. We have much more disposable income here. My husband also had more growth opportunities and has gotten promotion after promotion that would have never happened in Germany. We loved living in Germany but we have a much higher quality of life in the U.S.
bigdreams_littledick@reddit
Compared to New Zealand where I currently live, yes for me. I do the same job I did there for less money. There are a lot of other factors though.
saber_beam@reddit
Comparing the USA and Europe for take-home pay is like comparing apples to oranges, both have their unique costs and benefits.
Sisyphuss5MinBreak@reddit
You're mixing together discrenary income and disposable income. Disposable income is your after-tax income, and with higher salaries, most people will have more disposable income in the US. As for discretionary income, it depends on what one's expenses are. It could definitely be that one has higher discretionary income in Europe than in the US.
This Youtube video tries to break down being middle class in the Netherlands and in the US. I can't speak to the rigor of its analysis, but it's an interesting process they step through: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuZ5WO8xoks
hudibrastic@reddit
Is it true? Yes, not even close for any decent profession
Sure, if your job is flipping burgers you might be better off in Europe, if your ambition in life is die flipping burgers, then Europe is your place
All my friends who were not stupid like me and moved to the US instead have now wealth enough for them, their parents, and their next generation
Kingston31470@reddit
Depends on job opportunities and cities too.
I live and work and Belgium and when I consider what I could likely negotiate in the US it is probably not going to be worth it.
palbuddy1234@reddit
In our case it is true. It's harder to fire my wife in Switzerland, though easier than a lot of European countries so in a way it's more stable. (We're American)
Another factor is it's much harder for an additional spouse to find a job. It's harder (for us) to find daycare. Public schools mean my kids aren't going to school on Wednesdays and we have no local family members to take care of the kids during that day.
Yet another factor is if you do in fact get fired, hate your job, it's a lot harder to find a new one in country and if you have to go back to your host country that's a lot of money and stress.
Bonus factor is you won't necessarily get your American pension added to. No more adding to your 401k. We have a Swiss pension and it started from zero.