Living Under Orban: What's It Like and What Has Changed?
Posted by Julesscare@reddit | hungary | View on Reddit | 97 comments
This is not a hate post, just a genuine question. I'm from the Netherlands, and with Wilders recently coming to power, I'm concerned about the direction our country is heading. Wilders and Orban are known to be friends and share similar ideas. I'm pretty sure that if given the chance, Wilders would implement many of the same policies as Orban, such as undermining independent media and judicial independence.
I'm aware of the constitutional changes Orban has made and have a general idea of what he has done since coming into power. However, I don't know what it feels like living under such conditions. For those of you who live under Orban, how does it feel? What changes have you noticed?
Healthy-Brilliant549@reddit
The U.S. is here
Rough-Reply1234@reddit
Here from the US also asking the same question. Maybe someone can tell us how the US won't let this happen....
whennaminggoeswrong@reddit
Imagine not being able to talk to your closest relatives, not because you don’t agree on politics, but because you can’t agree on what’s reality. After a decade of slowly increased brainwashing, people just can’t admit to themselves that they believed so much stupid lies. I’m pretty convinced that the information I receive is generally closer to the truth, because I make better predictions about the future, than they do. For example Orban’s main propagandist, Zsolt Bayer said that “anyone who thinks Russia will attack Ukraine is retarded”, two days before the attack… at that point I’ve already seen many different analyses convincingly claiming the opposite. But the stock market is also a good measure of propaganda vs reality. In my opinion Budapest was awesome a decade ago, and now everyone I know considers escaping.
Key-Banana-8242@reddit
I mean you’re describing ideological conflicts
This is taking the perspective of someone for whom that is the worst issue
VindictiveRaspberry@reddit
Contraselection, first and foremost. Corruption is an aspect of this, but what truly happens is that everything that matters is taken over and then driven to the ground. Then taxpayer money fills in the holes. Anyone truly caring about a certain field in the economy either have to flee or learn to STFU, or sell to the ruling class. And yes, there is now a ruling class, a system of oligarchy that owns basically everything - electricity, water, telecommunication, transportation, whatever you can think about. Even if they lose an election, they own everything now.
On top of this is petty vindictiveness. When they fuck up something they of course not admit it, but even worse, they tend to continue it in spite. Because fuck you citizen, we take revenge on you for our faults, too. The peasants should not be just exploited, they should be properly and thoroughly humiliated, too.
Its a country that now exists only for the "family" and "friends of the family". They don't even care how many people leave, they just laugh, good riddance, bye, bye!
Fuck this government and their voters
Key-Banana-8242@reddit
That’s not rly how money is
VindictiveRaspberry@reddit
I mean, they are so cynical now that they don't even answer journalists they don't like. Maybe once or twice a year they make a big show of it when they actually do answer some questions, but even then they just reply with nonsense. Their arrogance have no limits. If a strike is on a horizon, they change the laws allowing strikes. Btw, they just make laws random, and announce them at 23:00 in the evening, in full effect the next day. They don't answer questions in the parliament. I mean, it is a very long list, every item blood-boiling.
Fuck this government and their voters
BarnacleWhich7194@reddit
It’s more what doesn’t happen - while other countries progress, the nepotism and cronyism holds Hungary back - money increasingly goes into vanity projects and not the essential services people actually use. A complete lack of imagination in a government stuck in the past means the country becomes a hub for low paid labour. A small core group of people have become fantastically rich, while economic mismanagement send the huf down the toilet and cost of living/inflation way higher. Constant noise and childish nonsense from the government, Orban spending more time creating conflict with allies and neighbours for his own ego and relevance.
Key-Banana-8242@reddit
The issue is not the “HUF being down the toilet” as a Meg., that’s a bit of economic misunderstanding
The issue is real wages/cost of living, rate
Key-Banana-8242@reddit
Progress isn’t a good term I k
SeceSoce@reddit
I think this is one of the more insightful comments that focus on problems with the economy rather than brainwashed people and other, predominantly “cultural” issues (which are of course, also important).
Just a practical example of what happens in real life. Let’s say, you are a succesful entrepreneur, in agriculture for example. Your father had a cow farm, you developed it further, you invested in new technology, and now you are the no. 1 dairy producer of your region. One day a guy in a suit arrives, and offers to buy your company on behalf of a big businessman (ie. the oligarch). You reject their offer. In a week, the tax authority comes on a random check and fines you. When you want to build a new warehouse, the municipality denies you the construction permit for some made-up reason. And these things happen again, and again in different forms (including tailor-made legislation), until you are barely operating profitably. In a year’s time the guy the suit comes back, gives you the same offer, but with a seriously reduced price tag.
Now, this story happened to all strategic sectors basically (energy, agriculture, telecommunications, IT development, construction, most recently aviation, grocery retail is underway) and some sectors that they otherwise liked (the vanity projects: tourism, hospitality, sports). You are basically disincentivized to start a venture, or invest large sums in your business, because the sword of Damocles is always there that one day the guy in the suit comes, and takes your investment in a second.
The oligarchs that acquire the successful entrepreneurs’ companies are usually not managing it very well, their companies rarely export. Their main costumer is the government, whom they sell their services/products overpriced. There is a serious lack of big “flagship” companies (eg. Phillips, ASML, ING, Heineken).
It’s as if the Dutch government -or businessman close to government- bought Phillips in the early 20th century, and Phillips would not have developed the products it has now, but only sold overpriced street lamps to Dutch municipalities.
The system is really good for huge manufacturers, they tend to get big ass tax reliefs for moving their operations to Hungary. Labour laws also reflect this goal (eg. you basically cannot effectively unionise), and the government is pretty lenient with them in terms of environmental regulations. These manufacturers give people low salaries and have them work in low added value jobs (eg. assembly line). A quick fix for a deprived rural society, that had no jobs after 2008. Fidesz is really popular for this (understandably, but now it’s ruining the economy). Recently, they even stopped employing Hungarians, and bring in even cheaper South-East Asian labor.
This is unlikely to happen in the Netherlands. This unholy economic situation is also because we are a relatively small (and poor) market, and most companies really started a market-based operation (before that, good old communism) from the 90s, when foreign companies also flooded the market, and often killed off Hungarian competitors (eg. foreign companies acquired all sugar manufacturing plants -except one- in 1988, closed them as soon as they could, so they could import their own sugar). It is hard to be a significant, independent economic actor in Hungary, who lives off of the market and is not in some way dependent of the state as a customer. In the Netherlands, that’s not true.
Most people don’t see these machinations by the way, and that’s thanks to the other issues I labeled “cultural”. Education is not very good (surely most people are not financially literate), the state media is very one-sided. This is also not really the case in the Netherlands.
Besides, Wilders is in a coalition, the man is treading on thin ice with every piece of major legislature. I hate his guts though, I used to live in the Netherlands when the Meldpunt Midden en Oost Europeanen was a thing, and I was not living in the enlightened and tolerant Randstad, but with the brabantse boeren, so it was not a nice experience.
VindictiveRaspberry@reddit
And there is no consequence for anything. There is no scandal they do not survive, even if it involves sexual abuse of minors (multiple times already!). Significant portion of the voters are continuously brainwashed on every possible channel and they just overwhelm the public with something else to suppress any scandal.
trbrd@reddit
As mentioned above, many people are brainwashed. I would say one of the most important and refined tools used by Orban and Fidesz is their exploitation of the media. Their propaganda is expertly crafted to appeal to a certain demographic who are easily swayed by repetitive appeal to emotion.
Year by year, their propaganda becomes more extreme, but it still works.
libsifereg@reddit
If what you say (ie Wilder implementing Orban's policies) happens, you are done for, as a country.
However this won't happen in the Netherlands, because the Dutch society is much stronger and richer in independently thinking people, and the people would never let the Hungarian rot to be repeated in lovely Holland.
Hovewer you can expect that as the leadership gets stronger, the worms will also feel like they are entitled to have a stronger voice, and they will be encouraged from above. Unfortunately this happens in some extent almost everywhere, although not as strong as in Hungary, or say, Russia.
To be honest, it really feels like shit to live in Hungary for anyone who has independent goals in life, and the feeling that this likely won't change in our lifetime is also depressing. Let's put it straight, Orban single handedly destroyed the country for at least half a century, although not without the support of our fellow citizens.
Lifeisabitchthenudie@reddit
Not to start anything, genuine question. What do you mean by independent goals in life?
Fantastic_Elk3796@reddit
I'm not the original commenter. But I think he/she meant anyone ambituous who doesn't want to snuggle up to the government. Orbán's regime is unique, because while it is still partially democratic, it's totalitarian at the same time-there is no area of life that fidesz hasn't infected. This means that if you want to reach big goals, you should get ready to constatnly have to deal with them. You want to be a succesful scientist? All top hungarian universities have fidesz-friendly leadership. You want to be a succesful entrepreneur? They don't tolerate independent business (unless you're a multinational gigacorp), you'll either be muscled out or forced to play along. You want to have a good carreer as a doctor? Well, they directly control the state-owned hospitals, and indirectly control most private hospitals through friendly oligarchs. You want to practice law? Guess who controls the judiciary branch? Etc etc. In basically any profession where you can move upwards, eventually you'll bump into fidesz, and you'll have to join them or look for greener pastures. And this is just career goals. Because they and their communication has managed to infiltrate almost all parts of daily life, there's almost no project you can pursue without being reminded that Orbán is your boss and you better not forget it.
libsifereg@reddit
Yes u/Fantastic_Elk3796 this is what I meant. Also, to u/Lifeisabitchthenudie I'd add that during the Soviet occupied era, you could have a job, you did not earn a lot but you could have a shitty weekend house, a shitty car, everything in the shops was medium quality but you could get enough to eat, in return you did not need to want anything, the government took care of you in this sense. Was this enough? For a lot of people sure it was. Orban's system copies the mediocre "socialist people's" dreams and satisfies them. If you don't want to struggle, don't want to become an enterpreneur, you don't want to do something astounding in your profession, in other words if you don't have dreams to reach, to struggle for, then this is the perfect system for you. However if you have an idea that you want to implement, if you want to become something on your own, you will soon face that the society and the system not only does not help you, but designed straight to cripple you and cause you fall. In this sense, Orban's system is an anti-talent system in which it tries to kill talent and groom mediocrity.
EquivalentDonkey8842@reddit
Orbán ellopta az unokáim jövőjét is !
Ott ahol most tart Magyarország!
Ok_Bat_7675@reddit
BarnacleWhich7194@reddit
Silent on Reddit for two years until you could post this?
burnt_RedStapler@reddit
heti propi
6499232@reddit
I hope you are aware that this sub is the biggest hate fanclub Orbán has and they are obsessed with the guy.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
I was not aware. Reddit in general tends to have more progressive people on it, but I didn't know that did was the hate club.
Maybe I can join the club, I spend the last couple of days really studying up in Orban and his consitutional changes and what it did to the rule of law and democracy, and I am not a fan.
6499232@reddit
The elections are democratic, he has the most voters. He is just corrupt and steals excessively.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Did he make any changes to how the elections work? Is it a proposal vote or district?
6499232@reddit
It's our constitution that allows to change laws with 2/3. But it doesn't matter because he wins by an overwhelming amount.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
How do the elections work?
6499232@reddit
But it's district as base, Orbán introduced proposal votes to garner more support.
Choad_Warrior@reddit
He also realigns districts and regions where his party is not winning, or likely winning. He just redraws the map.
6499232@reddit
He does a variety of tricks but none of this would work if the opposition got more votes.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Thanks I watch some videos on it :)
6499232@reddit
You can google that. It favors those who get the most votes disproportionately, it only favors Orbán as long as he gets the most votes.
indarye@reddit
Of course they have written their own election law, which favours them in many different ways. And if times change and some part of the election system stops working for them, they just change it.
anygal@reddit
The corruption is not the biggest problem in my opinion. The biggest problem is that he built up an extremely strong propaganda, so that half of the country can't see reality itself. Corruption is definitely a close second though.
6499232@reddit
Other half also happily consumes similar propaganda, but yes brainwashing comes in all forms aggressively from FIDESZ funded by the taxpayers. I disagree with it being worse than corruption though.
No-Veterinarian-9316@reddit
I'd rather have corruption than literal brainwashing.
KuvaszSan@reddit
I am significantly worse off and I feel like shit in my own country
No_Object_4549@reddit
All I can say, sadly, sometimes I feel the same too...
DevilLilith@reddit
Awful. Leaving to Sweden tomorrow, only coming back to get my diploma in december and to visit my family time to time.
Choad_Warrior@reddit
Good luck there! If you have any advice or pointers what was your route to success feel free to share. :)
No_Object_4549@reddit
I lived in Netherlands, Austria & Germany periodically, I would say I was happy. A few bad things have happened with my family that make me stay at home again. I can feel the difference. I always felt. From my Dutch bosses, I received more empathy, understanding, and openness. This is also missing. Even when they said the situation wasn't perfect there, I loved the atmosphere of the small Dutch towns, and no, not because of the drugs. (Of course, initially, it's goods for foreigners, and many people are there just for that reason...)Positivity, freedom, straightforwardness, and openness. Here, there is only depression. I'm sad about how many people are sad and hopeless. Lot of people living on 600 euros while prices have already surpassed the German Lidl product prices is not a dream. (Where I live , in a small little village, there is a shop, that also open in holidays, where 1000 huf/hour the salary (2,54 euros). The healthcare and education systems have totally collapsed. Corruption is rampant, tax evasion is widespread, and people are losing hope. Long-standing businesses are going bankrupt. This is the reality of Orbán's politics. He does excel at one thing though: social engineering. And we don't support those who protect pedophiles...As an outsider, it's hard to see the full picture. Moreover...the current politic climate in Hungary is marked by deep divisions and increasing authoritarianism. Media freedom has been significantly curtailed, with most major outlets under government influence! This control over the narrative allows the government to shape public perception and maintain power despite the country's deteriorating economic and social conditions. The erosion of democratic institutions and the judiciary has also raised concerns among international observers about the future of democracy in Hungary... It's a challenging situation that affects all aspects of life, from personal freedoms to the ability to run a business & not starving to death. Every person has the right to proper hospital care, good education, fair wages, and appropriate labor rights. It's their right... but in Hungary, don't have the opportunity. That's the difference.
fasz_a_csavo@reddit
Wilders is a western cuck, he'll solve nothing of why he was elected. So your country will rot away as usual, but I feel you are happy with that direction.
Orbán is fine, the economy is getting better, the country's debt steadily decreased until the latest worldwide fuckup.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
What makes you think I am happy about my counrty rotting away?
fasz_a_csavo@reddit
Well, you are worried about the new guy, so I made the assumption you were happier with the previous regime.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
I was very happy the last prime minister was leaving. I never thought it could get to the level were I would miss that guy. But then the election results came in... And now I migth go so far as miss our old prime minister, because at least he has never been procecuted for racism before
fasz_a_csavo@reddit
To be fair, just being prosecuted for racism is meaningless, considering the west's absolute state. It might be legit, or not, and you can't tell without knowing the details. It's not like being prosecuted for rape or murder.
huncutxxx@reddit
You came to the worst place to find this out. This sub is big time infested by a Orbán and Fidesz hater cult members. Good luck finding objective opinion here.
No-Veterinarian-9316@reddit
You're suggesting that one can't look at the objective facts and hate Orbán for it.
huncutxxx@reddit
Well being objective means you present topics with a "pro and contra" manner, as this is the norm in higher education as well. Pouring out your hatred shit is just not objective and very much biased. In fact it is rather like a propaganda. Some shit on this sub like the most recent fatal collision where 3 people died and some sick fucks of this forum started fabricating theories whether the drug addict culprit had to be a government agent committing a suicide kamikaze mission to silence some witnesses, now that some sick shit there and very much is cultish.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Any other place I could ask? I dont have any Hungarian friends unfortunately
tismightsail@reddit
Part 2 real quick. Orbán is not so popular because of how amazing he is. Orbán is popular because he is not this guy (pic below): Ferenc Gyurcsány. He was his predecessor, who "served" in the late 2000's during the global economic crisis. He was also an idiot. And he also unleashed excessive force/police brutality onto protesters. So everytime something happens in this country, Orbán and his cult simply chant "yes but Gyurcsány," "okay but the left wing." And done. His voters rather vote Orban than vote Gyurcsány, who had, until now, the largest opposition party. And even if you are not affiliated to this clown, Orbán and his gang will make damn sure that you are on the public's eyes. That's all.
Also, there is this good vid you may watch, if you want to rotten your brain a bit more that shows how is it like to live under such a regime. From the perspective of propaganda. It's just a taste, of course: https://youtu.be/ego4aQLZKlQ?si=foZ-Ji26-9Glc7gI
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Thank you for sharing, its very helpful to have all the context. I will watch the video
tismightsail@reddit
You're welcome, and good luck, and give back our gold 💪🇧🇷 (I'm half Brazilian and originally from Nieuw Amsterdam):D On a serious note, can't see the Netherlands get to such levels of bad as Hungary.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Cool very nice to meet you.
I joined a political party as a result of the recent elections. So I am joining the figth, to prevent Wilders from hurting the counrty. That's why I am studying up on everything there is to know. :)
tismightsail@reddit
Ah, you are on actual mission. Well I won't kid, then. Keep an eye out for media crackdown. That was one of the first things this regime conquered. I won't disturb much more.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
I saw him win the elections and kinda was like over my dead body. I will not let this counrty become less of democracy where people are not treated equally.
I never planned to become politically active, but sometimes you just can't stand by and watch. Especially if I know we still have a change to turn things around.
Now I just need to figure out how to convince people Wilders is not good for them or democracy in general
KoboldJan@reddit
I moved to the Netherlands a few years ago now, I think it's good that you're drawing these comparisons and indeed Wilders' surge has been a scary echo for myself and other Hungarians I know. The democratic foundations are strong in the Netherlands making it harder for an Orban like calamity to happen but it should be terrifying that Wilders thinks of him as a great leader.
You got a lot of great replies already but happy to expand if you have any more.
Also the people mentioning the "echo chamber" are mostly idiots. Yes you won't meet many Fidesz voters here that is because a large percentage of their voters are old 60+ or undereducated people from villages (shown in recent statistics). It's a sad fact of democracy (even such a weak and authocratic as Hungary) that peope can often be led to vote against their best interests.
Hup Holland :)
tismightsail@reddit
You are talking to a paid bot. This is how it is like to live here. While everything is falling apart, while you can't have a prospect of future, while 70 year olds work at fastfood chains to not get evicted, while we all pay insanely high taxes and have nothing in return, the state funds a massive propaganda and disinformation campaign to stir up the public and keep people second guessing reality. You have read what Orban is, what he does and did, what his regime stands for. It's not very different from Georgia, just a couple of steps behind. Fidesz spends an ungodly amount of money to control the rhetoric and narrative. But remember, not only a couple of months ago his president and his justice minister had to step down due to a scandal involving systematic child sexual assault/pedophilia. It took them a week to remove the president who pardoned the guy who lobbied for the pardon. That pardon actually happened last year, and her excuse was she thought he was innocent. He was convicted on the highest level. Orban's reaction was to trash the opposition. But let's go back to everyday life, because who cares about some orphans, right. His regime continuously drained all funds from public health. Public schools are completely collapsed. We don't have enough teachers to the point that, according to the party's newest and brightest legislation, army soldiers can be appointed to schools to fill up the slots. While the money goes to paid actor to spread misinformation, like that guy that you are replying to. Welcome to the East. This is a post soviet country, remember. This is nothing new, it's only but a Russian import.
dzsman@reddit
Lol, what the hell is an objective opinion? Maybe an unbiased perspective, but that is certainly not the same as balanced.
One-Tackle2108@reddit
I understand why you would have concerns about Wilders in general, but bear in mind that the Hungarian political landscape significantly differs from the Dutch. As a former Eastern Bloc country, democracy does not have such deep historical roots in Hungary as in the Netherlands, which of course shapes the political preferences of the public and affects how political parties operate. For instance, the Netherlands is always ruled by coalition governments, which requires cooperation between parties, bargaining and concessions. Looking at the state of Dutch politics right now, it is hard to imagine a party winning the election by absolute majority, which greatly hinders the chance of Wilders having a mandate to replicate what Orbán has done. Furthermore, Dutch democracy is much “stronger” than in Hungary. Orbán basically dismantled Hungarian democracy in 2-3 years, while Wilders would run into many obstacles in the Netherlands: more diverse media landscape, financially strong private companies (thus cooperation with the elite is more important), a plethora of independent organizations and a strong civil society, and of course, strong support for democracy among the public. These factors make it unlikely that you end up on the road of autocratization, as we did unfortunately in Hungary. So don’t worry, even though Wilders share similar characteristics to Orbán, you will probably not experience it in full effect (seeing that he could not become PM even with a landslide victory further proves this point).
by the way, if you are really interested in this topic feel free to dm me, I lived in both countries and studied politics it is a thought-provoking case, so good for you for taking interest in it:)
Agreeable-Can5994@reddit
Here, most of the redditors are leftist-liberals, so I would suggest you, not to beleive these comments. You can come to Hungary if you want, it is really a beautiful and nice country with nice people.
No-Veterinarian-9316@reddit
Bad bot.
VindictiveRaspberry@reddit
Oh, and btw, (and I stop for today because I got too worked up), we are under the state of emergency since COVID (2020 11th March), which got extended, then replaced with the reason of having a war in the neighborhood. They govern with edicts now, the parliament is mostly for show. 4 fucking years continuous "emergency".
Okutyasaga_Waunov@reddit
Actually the "emergency" started in september of 2015 with the declaration of the "emergency due to mass immigration". Since then this emergency is always prolonged regularly on a yearly basis. So currently we are living under two paralell emergencies migraton amd war). 😀
The other points are surgical correct (unfortunately).
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Wow I didn't know about that. I know that Erdogan did something similar, no idea Orban also used that trick
chefko@reddit
To bring in another perspective, because this sub left leaning. He did great things in the first 8 years. Then more and more corruption creeped in and now the party needs the corruption to stay in power. People in Hungary on both sides always compare hungary to the west. The right wing always talks about avoiding crappy immigration and its terrible consequences seen in the west - which will never happen because hungary has no welfare state. The left always talks about deterioting economy and social services but doesnt recognice, that thats a common theme/occurance in the west aswell.
If you ask the average József, which is not on reddit, i guess on average the will evaluate the first 8 years as positive, and then a certain decline.
CallMeKolbasz@reddit
The average Hungarian has always been barely interested in politics. Before the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was an unwritten agreement that if the people mostly refrain from engaging in politics, the system will sustain a relatively good standard of living.
Orbán's system is somewhat similar. As the general public's political attention span remained virtually unchanged during the last 30 years, what little they do care about politics is entirely served by state media and related publishers under the direct control of Orbán and his people. And it reaches way beyond politics.
It changed the quality of any public discourse. People increasingly communicate in a style recognizable from state media and its related publishers, with the same hateful and resentful tone, about the same self-centered, self-aggrandising, nationalistic themes, and will unknowingly regurgitate the talking points they heard on the news.
This level of control over the narrative is a cornerstone of Orbán's regime, and the damage it's been doing will unfortunately long outlive his rule. This is how he managed to turn a somewhat Russophobe Hungary to a generally Russophile one in a matter of months. It might not be all that relevant to the Netherlands, as this technique heavily relies on the prëxisting closed worldview of the Hungarian people, but keep an eye out for the subtle changes controlled media might instill in everyday life.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Thank you for this perspective. This is not something I had considerd yet
Wilders wants to get rid of "woke left wing media" so far he has not been successful, because he needed two other parties to from a government he is not in power alone. So hopefully the other parties and our institutions can keep him in check. If he has a majority I am sure he would have come for the media very fast. As well as the courts. He has been procuted for racism before by the courts, and he call the court woke court that opress the true feelings of the Ducht people. He has all the sign but hopefully not the power
iparigame@reddit
I would like to point out that Orban's focus is on the approximately 2 million voters who support his party. With this base, which constitutes about 20% of the overall population, he can maintain a supermajority. I don't think a similar situation would be possible in the Netherlands. If I were you, I wouldn't be too concerned. The average Dutch voter tends to have better mental health compared to the average Hungarian voter. Many Hungarians experience unsupported anxieties, bitterness in a historical context, and unfulfilled dreams, which might not be as common in your country. Just keep up the spirit!
PikaMaister2@reddit
There's policy and there's corruption. Policy often fuels the local corruption in Hungary. So a lot of policies that seemingly don't move the needle, but allow allow special exemptions that are beneficial for a single transaction, businessman, etc..
What changed: - powerful private monopolies and business man established on state money, small/mid sized companies ran out of business or bought up in many sectors - entrepreneursship severy scaled back - traditional print and TV media is 95% propaganda. Previously mentioned private business holdings with political ties bought them all out - constant state of emergency (since COVID we're in one, PM has right to decree anything without parliament vote if he wants to), even before we were always at "war" with Soros, the migrants, Brussels/EU, globalists, foreign companies, trans/gays/wokes, literally anything. Somehow there won't be a single year where your country is not in existential threat - sharp decline in pension values from state - deep cuts into social programs, especially ones that benefit minority groups, the ones still ongoing never receive any increased funding - sharp decline in education quality - sharp decline in birth rates - sharp increase in income/wealth inequalities - abolishment of progressive step based taxes in favour of flat taxes, which benefits the elite disproportionately - a complete disconnect of politics from policies - lots of national debt to supplement lost EU funds (we survive on EU funds, this very likely doesn't apply to NL)
mcfeher@reddit
constant frustration
acecombine@reddit
our people are so brainwashed left and right, they blame everything on the opposition and their leaders, while people in the UK sent the Tories away with little to no campaign on Labour's side, here people will still blame the opposition when their last pair of pants is ripped off of them by the governing party...
simple, slave minded, narcissistic, but insecure people we are... hope that your people do better...
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Wilders is also very very good at playing the blame game. He blames, refugees, the EU, the Woke left elites, the courts, the media his favourite is blaming Muslims or Moroccan people.
A lot of people believe his frames and go with his very simpel explanation of problems and the 'way to simple would never work' solutions he provides.
But I don't think we have reached that level yet. Only a small group of people are at that level. Wilders is successful in getting people on board with his blame game but not to that extent yet
VindictiveRaspberry@reddit
What is so baffling here, that after 14 years in power, with 2/3rd of the seats in the parliament (which means they can change the constitution), while having a completely splintered and ineffective opposition, and, somehow it is the opposition who is at fault for the state of the country. Ah, and opposition=left wing. You can be a liberal, a conservative that disagrees, etc, does not matter. You are "left wing", someone with a "traitor heart" (not fully proper translation of "idegenszívű").
FomoHungaricus@reddit
British citizens also voted for Brexit. So people are all the same i guess.
acecombine@reddit
yes, but about a term after Brexit they got rid of the party that sold them all the lies...
Hungary will just keep voting for the madness...
Svvitzerland@reddit
Hungary is so amazing that even after a gigantic buffoon such as Orban leading it for 14 years, life is still pretty darn good here. Not even kidding!
MarkMew@reddit
Yeah life's good here if you are a software engineer or a manager in Budapest OR you live close to the Austrian border and commute to work OR you started your own business in the early 90s and got lucky with it. The rest of the people can't even save a penny.
MarkMew@reddit
What hasn't really been mentioned yet is how the society is now divided. And they do this on purpose on several things.
You can barely find a person with whom you can disagree with about Orbán without the discussion turning into a personal attacks and judging each other harshly.
The general idea of the propaganda is that Orbán makes his voters scared of any situation where he isn't in power;
Because then - according to Orbán - Gyurcsány (the previous shitty PM) comes back, or the immigrants are gonna come in and rape your daughter, son, mother, grandma AND you, or George Soros does whatever, or they say that the opposition wants to make Hungary join the war.
And loads of people just don't follow politics closely, or at all, so they either don't vote or fall for the propaganda. Here, especially in older generations it is somehow considered appriciatable to not follow and not discuss politics, like that's something to be proud of, or like political opinions are something to hide. This is most likely due to the commie era where society was encouraged to stay the hell away from the party's business if they disagree.
They aren't spending enough on education and healthcare, hospitals and schools are mostly in horrible conditions, there aren't enough healthcare professionals and teachers and the ones left are mostly rude as hell due to exhaustion because they de working below a living wage OR they are just not good enough at their job because any dummy has been able to can get uni for a while now if they choose this degree. They actually want to train soldiers to become teachers due to the shortage.
So, in bulletpoints:
-Society is divided
-You can't discuss politics because most people either don't or just get mad at you for having a single different thought
-Healthcare system and education is rotting away right in front of our eyes, the average kid is doing worse on PISA tests than ever before.
And most people just don't give a fuck about all of this. It feels like living in that 'Don' t look up' movie.
Overall it feels depressing and demotivating like we are just doomed.
FomoHungaricus@reddit
Cringe...Retro...Struggle
Calildur@reddit
Greatly depends on where you live, but for example in Budapest aside from healthcare and education you can ignore it if you really want but this doesn't mean you can avoid it. Propaganda is everywhere and prices are going up. The issue is that with a good enough job you can avoid most of these inconveniences. There's no violence against you for having a different view or at least not by the government.
However the gap between poor and rich getting wider and there are barely any social safety net for you if you fall under a certain level of wealth.
I you are interested in politics and wish for the country do better than it's hard to not feel a constant stress and anger because of your inability to force change. Like for example most of our natural resources are sold out to eastern electric battery companies with complete disregard to any regulation. The government have no long time vision other than keeping themselves in power. And this is something that angers me the most because even countries that do everything in their power lessen the effects of climate change can do only so much but we do nothing, and even actively making it worse.
tl;dr: if you don't care about is and have decent job than you are fine for the most part, but if you do than it's really hard to endure the feeling of powerless.
Purple-Bluebird-9758@reddit
His greatest sin in my eyes, is how his rhetoric strengthens division and splinters our society.
There is a divide beetween conservative and progressive minded, old and young, rural and urban people. Always has been and will be. But communication should be possible, even if we can not agree, we should be able to respect each other, live with each other.
But his propaganda thrives in this division, spreads hate and creates barriers. It's become so hard to find a middle ground, that people just avoid talking about politics. This serves his agenda, helps perpetuate the propaganda - and causes unmeasurable grief and frustration.
But I'm sure your country will fare a lot better. You had a lot more experience living in democracy, understand it better and probably treaure your democratic rights more.
JuhSzil@reddit
For me, the worst is the propaganda and to see peole falling for it. Even your closest realtives. It's endless, unavoidable and eats your brain away.
sysis@reddit
both healthcare and education are going down the shitter and everything costs a lot… these are the biggest changes
in our everyday life we dont really feel governmental pressure, that is experienced by people speaking out in public, opposition members and independent journalists.
Kobaljov@reddit
In the offline media (plus even billboards), including the commercial ones, it has brought itself into an almost monopoly position, today only a few newspapers have been able to remain independent from it, all the others (including the "public service") TVs, radios and newspapers either repeats their brainwashing propaganda or rather completely avoids political topics as much as possible, so other opinions can be heard primarily via the Internet (which is not always available or a less effective method for older, poorer or less educated people, they provide the majority of its supporters).
In addition, he eliminated the elements from the democratic "brakes and counter-weights" system (no one to control) and built a complete mafia state, which we only call the NER (Nemzeti Eggyüttműködés Rendszere, National Cooperation System), which slowly affects all areas of life outside the state, the economy is heavly affected (e.g. "irresistible business offers" from entrepreneurs close to the government) but also sports and culture, etc.
Kobaljov@reddit
An example of the situation in the media: in the countryside, the county daily newspapers are quite widespread, they were read before, they bought them all and put them in one editorial office, their websites looked like this in 2021 after an Orbán interview (in which Brussels attacked Hungary again...)
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Thank you for sharing
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing
EpresGumiovszer@reddit
Lol, most of this thread were a child or young adult before him (if you add 98-02, it's even more).
Vast-Occasion9474@reddit
wilder would be exectured if he stole 0.1% of what the orban dictatorshop did. hungary is a 4th world country with subhuman population, while netherlands is part of the civilized world. i wouldnt be afraid.
Julesscare@reddit (OP)
Maybe you are rigth. But he does use a lot of the same language, regarding courts, media, immigration, refugees, the EU. He also says that parlement is fake and he is the only true representation of what the people want. He will give the Netherlands back the Dutch people (whatever that means).
Idk maybe you are rigth we have checks and balances in place, so it migth take him a lot longer ro get to Orbans point. But I do believe he wants to achieve the same things Orban did.
Aldorfox@reddit
So you also consider yourself subhuman?
Hiryu2point0@reddit
r corruption skyrockets, the state mafia: if you don't hand over your company, you'll be wiped out.
Prosecutor's office, police, courts working for them.
Cult of leadership,
If they want something, they change the laws and the constitution to suit them.
Constantly making enemies.
The rigging of democratic elections.
Mindless, hypocritical religiosity_ about Texas reload.
Shall I go on?
beeholden@reddit
Nothing, things are just expensive and sociel safties are dogshit.
Literally like every other eastern european country.
Or england
Reasonable_Visual_89@reddit
Yep, exactly, this.
People keep thinking that if there wasn't Orban, life would be much better. Well, that's kinda untrue, it would probably be somewhat better, but not that significantly. We would still be a small, landlocked country with no significant natural resources, etc.
Ok-Exercise-2998@reddit
Before pandemic and war happened it was alright. Now you can only survive if you work for a mulitnational company. Hungarians stopped going to restaurants it is now only for tourists and forigners. (theese are just my personal experiences, so dont hate me for it)
Appropriate_Bit6889@reddit
He is doing everything slowly so people don’t really realize what’s going on… propaganda also works unfortunately. People believe what he says 😞 Also he puts some huge event all over the media when he wants to try to hide something.