There's nothing antisemitic in these texts. They seem perfectly reasonable. The city government and wealthy donors crushed free speech and then whined about being oppressed. That is absolute fucking chutzpah of the highest order these admins were rightly rolling their eyes at it.
Good thing theres no rich asians. That the entirety of ivy league student bases all come from privileged backgrounds
Lmao. This means laughing my ass off
Let me know when there's a rich Asian version of AIPAC that can make criticism of (Asians) or their issues essentially illegal or keep you from doing business if you do it. Because otherwise that's a false equivalency.
That's not the same as not being allowed to criticize.
She had to swear an oath to not boycott the country the state has economic ties with.
You also aren't allowed legally to boycott Japan or UK.
Yeah - guess what, we support our allies.
That's why it's a similar statement made to not work against the USA - we still have free speech.
You also get sworn to respect the allies of the USA.
You may want to re read that citizenship test.
Sure - perhaps post a list of similar oaths and anti boycott legislation for other allies.
Say UK, Canada, Australia, Japan and New Zealand.
Funny we never see friends of England in US politics, or people wearing Australian military uniforms in Congress there. Or SuperPACs lobbying for Canada.
Weird, huh?
You're deliberately misrepresenting Murdoch. Sadly he has never acted in Australia's interests. Only in his own and those who reinforce it.
Unless you have proof to the contrary.
You’re deliberately misrepresenting my position to continue moving the goalpost. Murdoch moves to represent the interests of the top 1%, same as Israeli leadership.
American foreign policy has long been for sale to the highest bidder, foreign of domestic and regardless of acting in an official capacity.
Unless you have proof of the contrary of course
Thanks for the links!
Obviously, since you read them, you know it’s not illegal to criticize Jews or Israel in those jurisdictions.
So I ask again, can you name just a single jurisdiction where it’s illegal to criticize Jews or Israel?
Semantics?
You people coming here blatantly lying saying that there are jurisdictions in the US that are violating the first amendment without anyone stopping it is crazy. And yea, I’m going to call you out on that when I see it.
You don’t want me to play semantics? Then stop lying.
stfu, you just came in here and derailed the conversation fixating on one point that really doesn’t change the facts being discussed here.
Typical hasbara talking points. Arguing in bad faith and muddying the waters.
Pat yourself on the back with your smugness.
You’ve accomplished nothing here.
If you truly suspect someone of being a hasbara troll then just call it out and block them. Previous hasbara efforts showed a payment model where they get more money based on online engagement. So fighting instead of blocking potentially puts money in their pockets.
Whatever makes you feel better kiddo. Specificity in language is essential, especially when it means the difference between a factual statement and a lie.
You may not care that you lie, but trust me, people in your life think less of you for it.
Name a single congressperson that had a challenger in their primary that was picked and funded by any of the countries you just listed. Just because anti-Semitism is real that doesn't make finding fault with Aipac anti-Semitic. Both things can be true. Also, Israel wouldn't show up in your list because Aipac exists specifically to launder foreign money for domestic use. Do better.
Actually AIPAC is funded by Americans. AIPAC functions like any other special interest lobbying group. If you don’t like it, the solution is significant campaign finance reform.
AIPAC's funders take alot of "gifts" from overseas. Stop being pedantic. Like I said, the entire poi tod Aipac is to wash foreign money to influence our politicians.
The people in charge of investigating and making sure Jewish students feel safe on campus … made fun and ignored Jews who voiced their concern ?
You seriously don’t see the issue here ?
Jewish kids were not in any danger. They wanted to shut down free speech and managed to get the mayor and chief of the NYPD to blatantly lie for them. Meanwhile students expressing their opinions about the wrongness of genocide were arrested and threatened with expulsion.
There are hate crimes against everybody depending on the social context. Muslims experienced it after 9/11, Asians experienced it after covid, Hispanics experienced it after trump and so on. I know you think that sky daddy chose you as his favourite race, but y’all ain’t special
Also before you cite “the occupation”.
Heres the Grand Chief of the Nishnwabe Aski Nation. One of the largest confederations of Ojibwe, Cree and Oji-cree first nations. Recognizing the Jews as indigenous to Judea and citing Israel as their model. Go figure.
https://x.com/IndigenousCFI/status/1807544168174223787
The West Bank is occupied, no matter how much the “chosen race” claims otherwise. Sky daddy said you can have the land? Guess what, the rest of the human population don’t believe in your fairytales, so you can’t draw international borders from it
Or you know call out antisemitism. Which is an issue. A worse issue than it is for all other religions combined in America.
https://www.justice.gov/crs/highlights/2022-hate-crime-statistics
I genuinely don't believe these stats. Every single bit of harassment or name calling qualifies. And half the reports come from Hasids who are genuinely bad neighbors. It's not happening at Columbia. I've lived in Brooklyn for a long time and never experienced anything negative. Protesting the war isn't antisemitism. And it completely undermines the notion of rampant antisemitism since it's proof you will label absolutely anything you don't agree with as antisemitism. It's officially meaningless.
That’s not how hate crimes work actually. Being mean isn’t a qualifier. Crazy how you actually ignored FBI crime stats and just went with you gut.
Yet you say I’m wrong ?
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2022001/article/00005-eng.htm
The stats are also true in Canada and Europe.
That site is for Canada. Here's a [J Post](https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-726272) article. It says 94% of hate crimes against Jews in NYC were against hasids and almost entirely in their segregated neighborhoods. And it includes physical and non-physical. Threats and graffiti are crimes.
Yes I put Canada to show you it’s happening all over. Your argument was the fbi stats were bad so I gave you more.
I’m confused to what your link has anything to do with anything? Let alone if well before Oct 7th which added a huge increase to antisemitism. Your link doesn’t disprove anything and it certainly doesn’t backup what you said. Let alone it seems to be that you’re clearly being racist and make it seem like the hasids deserve their treatment.
Go look up who they caught for shooting up the synagogue in Canada, i’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t an Arab.
Zionists literally started their movement with terrorism and they will forever employ terrorist tactics.
Every accusation is a confession.
Lies after lies and people like you to push them and stifle dissent and discourse.
It’s perfectly reasonable for school administrators, who are charged with protecting students from violence and hate speech, to delegitimization the reasonable fears of Jewish students on the basis that they’re faking it and using money to trick everyone? You don’t see how that plays into centuries old antisemitic tropes?
Never mind the fact that administrators like this should be taking these concerns seriously because it’s their job. Never mind the fact that the justice department has an investigation open against Columbia for violations of students’ civil rights.
You used the antisemitic word which means you have no argument.
They are not reasonable fears, it's a tactic to dismiss legitimate peaceful protests. The idea that people's feelings being upset is more important than literal death being protested is obscene.
You’re a joke. Calling their actions obscene in the face of a protest against death, which just so happens to have a protest leader releasing videos talking about how much they want to murder Zionists.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68909942.amp
Or how students are chanting and holding signs asking Hamas to come to campus and murder Jews there too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/Zppgej10DX
But yeah, Jews have nothing to worry about and antisemitism doesn’t exist. Ok dude. Nobody takes you seriously.
That fake ass white Zionist woman being a "jihad trope" is such an obvious Israeli false flag.
Zionist propaganda tricked worked on the west all these decades because they controlled the narrative and the media and politicians and boomers ate it up.
Now people see what a joke it is.
Is your comment literally Jews (Zionists) control the media? I hope anyone reading this realizes how open Anti-semitism had become with this. Despicable.
You use Zionist, as a pejorative. All Jews across the globe are Zionists, not out of some bloodthirsty, conspiratorial grab for colonial power like you think, but out of fear that there will be nowhere safe to go or hide from people like you without Israel.
It's really simple. Are you opposed to a 2-state solution? If not, you are a Zionist. If you are opposed to a 2-state solution, you are advocating for the eradication of a country and all its people. Think about it.
>All Jews across the globe are Zionists
Really? Seems strange to claim that all people of Jewish faith happen to also have the same political idealogy. Kinda racist tbh. Almost.. Hmm... Antisemitic.
But of course, if I ask you for any proof of your claims, that’s when the excuses come rolling in, right? Because you’re just pulling this out of your ass so you can project the moral position while also siding with horrible people.
A reddit post of a staged scene where someone is standing amongst dozens of pro Israelis holding that sign? It's not even vaguely believable.
Meanwhile here's one such example exposed:
[https://x.com/LaraFriedmanDC/status/1784296798263165030](https://x.com/LaraFriedmanDC/status/1784296798263165030)
And another of a zionist wishing rape on protesters supporting Palestine:
[https://x.com/alianfromspace/status/1784740261278732347](https://x.com/alianfromspace/status/1784740261278732347)
It's appalling.
>A reddit post of a staged scene where someone is standing amongst dozens of pro Israelis holding that sign? It's not even vaguely believable.
Sorry, but unless you have proof it’s fake, I couldn’t care less about your conspiracy theories.
>Meanwhile here's one such example exposed:
https://x.com/LaraFriedmanDC/status/1784296798263165030
Should I post videos of how Palestinians fake outrage videos in Gaza to garner sympathy?
>And another of a zionist wishing rape on protesters supporting Palestine:
>It's appalling.
It’s appalling that you try to characterize racist mobs at Columbia, whose leader is promoting slaughtering Jews, as just protesters who want to stop violence.
You’re a propagandist.
I mean, even if you personally couldn't care less. This is a news sub.
I appreciate the dude coming with reciepts as to how it's possible that things aren't as cut-and-dry as "Students are asking hamas to come and murder jews"
That way i know not to offhandedly believe every photo unless its proven.
The argument seems to be that people are mischaracterizing the act of protesting at all as "Wishing death to all jewish people" and thats what got the professors fired. And comment threads like this shows how that is a thing that can happen.
More information is good in a news sub.
he’s just here to muddy the waters.
The more time of yours and others he takes up, that reduces the amount of time they can spend discussing this with actually rational people who can understand nuance and aren’t blinded to their cause.
Typical hasbara. Derailing convos and muddying the arguments.
“This might be fake because this totally unrelated series of events that happened tens of thousands of miles away, several months apart, was also fake” is sound logic to you? Really?
So should I not believe any of the suffering coming out of Gaza because they lied about Israel bombing that hospital? So now everything they say is probably a lie?
Get a grip dude.
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Downplaying violent attacks on Jewish students and members of campus DURING a panel discussing the lived experience of the Jewish people.
Why is it that when other minority groups speak up about their lived experience people can recognize how gross and wrong it is to deny that, but when it comes to Jews nobody has a problem telling us how we should feel about violence against us?
Because Jews don't count.
Despite being the oldest and most prevalent ongoing hatred in history, anti-Semitism doesn't fit conveniently into how social justice education works and is a huge blind spot for otherwise well intentioned people who are suddenly all too happy to handwave away serious anti-Semitic incidents while demanding we worry about the smallest microaggressions that occur to any other minority group.
I love how you think calling me an Orthodox Jew is an insult.
I’ve gotten a lot of Jew hate from the pro Palestine crowd, but this is definitely the most obscure. So congrats.
I’m sitting on my girlfriend’s balcony watching fireworks over the Hudson River in NYC. I know you think all Jews have a secret primary allegiance to Israel, but this Jew is enjoying some good ole USA celebrations with beer and hot dogs.
Plus I’m pretty sure Israel is doing just fine without me lol.
Yeah a classic Reddit thing is to extrapolate unknowable details about you based on the content of your conversation or username, post history, etc. in a display of grand arrogance. Fun isn’t it
Revulsion at occupation of Palestine, stealing and destroying property and genocide is not antisemitism.
Being annoyed at the entitled isn't antisemitism.
Israel creates a lot of this sentiment. Most Jewish people are wonderful but they can also be entitled or like some Israeli ministers be genocidal psychopaths. It's not about religion or race it's about actions.
No, the worst Jews are entitled SETTLER TERRORISTS who are also murderers. Fixed it for you. Or is this something that’s allowed for the “chosen race” only?
That's racist.
And denies that Israeli ministers literally call it out as a holocaust and are proud of it.
[https://x.com/DrLoupis/status/1805057673802477799](https://x.com/DrLoupis/status/1805057673802477799)
lol racist? Palestinians and Israelis are mostly the same race. What are you talking about?
Are you mad because I shut you up in the other comment thread which you won’t respond to?
>**fascism**
>noun
>fas·cism ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm
>a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
a.k.a 'israel'
Yeah. Clearly the Admins are wallowing in emotion and using the exchanges to strengthen their in-group identity. Its very unprofessional. They come across as exactly the same as far right nut jobs.
Can we not have sources like the Jerusalem Post?
We don't allow Chinese or Russian sources but it's apparently even handed to get the official Israel view on the ongoing information war.
It has been LONG accepted that the person putting forth something as a fact is the one who has to provide sources. Going "oh yea that sub was founded by the woman who helped Epstein" AND THEN saying "but nah im not gonna provide sources or anything to back it up, that's your job!" is kinda sus.
Your submission/comment has been removed as it violates:
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Make sure to check our sidebar from time to time as it provides detailed submission guidelines and may change.
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This is about the ongoing narrative to distract from Israel's actions in Gaza by contriving antisemitism from peaceful protests. Of course it's in Israel's interests.
You're not naive, so why are you denying it?
People protested the Nova exhibit by saying it was "justification for a genocide" which is a similar line of thinking that reporting on Jewish people experiencing antisemitism is a "distraction."
Multiple things are true at once. Plenty of people are being anti Semitic, lots of Jews feel unsafe and have been hate crimed, and Palestinians are suffering.
No one would treat any other marginalized group like that, dismissing their concerns
This situation though has been one of clarity. Multiple interviews and filming of peaceful protests made up of people wanting peace, including Jews. Well publicized.
That Jews feel unsafe when Jewish people are welcomed in the protesters is nonsensical. There may well be paranoia and people who misread the situation. But that doesn't change the facts.
Again, there are people dying in Palestine and that isn't enough to change behaviour. Yet some want protesting against that violence to stop because someone's feelings are hurt? It's clearly deliberate misdirection. And an obscene confusion of priorities.
There's the antisemitic word that once again means you don't have an argument.
My point was that the very presence of Jewish people in the protesters demonstrates that there is no reason for Jews to feel unsafe because of their race or religion.
The effort some commenters will go to to distort this is perverse.
The Jews present in the protest are the ones who share your opinions. The ones who don't agree feel unsafe at the protest. Should Orthodox Jews opinions matter less since liberal Jews felt safe attending protests?
The existence of black Republicans doesn't make the Republican party a safe place for all black people.
Well, once again, it demonstrates that their race and religion are not being targeted.
Do Orthodox Jews feel unsafe when they protest at Zionist rallies? I don't think they do.
No it's doesn't demonstrate that. It shows you can be openly Jewish if you agree politically.
I am a jew. I do not agree with Netenyahu and what his government is doing to Gaza. I do not think Israel should stop being a country. I don't feel safe at pro Palestine rallies due to, among other things, the continuous use of "from the river to the sea". I have seen people state that "Zionists control the media", I have seen national news outlets using Hamas statistics with no critical thinking.
I'm glad that some Jews and their support are welcomed at cease fire rallies. I don't think their presence eliminates the presence of antisemitism at rallies.
So you would ban protests if anyone has an opposing view - because they may feel unsafe?
Incidentally from the river to the sea literally calls for freedom. Not genocide. Not stealing land. It literally states they want to be free in their homeland. And many like you distort even a simple call for freedom as threatening. It doesn't matter how it may have been used by anyone. It is very simple, your subtext is not implicit.
And before you go too far, consider this.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
The Likud Party of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in its original party platform in 1977 that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." The charter says "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"
This IS explicitly seeking to steal another people's land.
How do you think the Palestinians feel?
Most people aren't calling for a ban on protests. It isn't just that "Jews feel unsafe" like they're some whiny bitches or something.
It is that an oppressed minority with a demonstrated history of being genocided (perhaps you recall) is saying they feel as if their safety and possibly their lives are at risk. Rhetoric that is harmful to them is being widely shared.
For the record, Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution. They want From the river to the sea. They want all of Israel. the Jews expelled from the land. Or as servants. Yes, this is documented.
2million Arabs live in Israel. Palestinians used to go there to work.
Why do you think there are militarized borders? Why is killing all the Jews in the Hamas charter? Why did Hamas create a TV show called Tomorrows Pioneers in which cute characters talk to children about growing up to kill and stab Jews?
If you know the history of the Intifadas then you could clearly see why Jews might feel threatened by thousands of people calling for a "global intifada."
This is merely the subtle stuff where people think a slogan means one thing but it really doesn't. To say nothing of the explicit violence and hatred. You have to be a "good antizionist jew" in many of these protests. Star of David anywhere on your body? Liable to get harassed.
So, the majority isn't calling for the end of protests at all, let alone because weak little jews feel unsafe.
Antisemitism is real and it is dangerous and it is not just perpetrated by white supremacists
Hamas isn't Palestine.
Look I believe you are genuine and that there is much we could agree upon. I want to say that I don't want you or anyone to feel fear or distress.
Let's also agree that there is genuine racism that every minority faces and that is appalling. Jews are no different sadly but also not above any other.
I do also believe that Israel is engaged in both a humanitarian and publicity disaster in its brutal dealing with Palestine over decades. This cycle of killing and then killing more when they resist. Palestinians that you and I would never want to suffer physically - do. And Jews defending Israel incur the wrath of an increasingly hostile world.
Withdraw, stop preemptive attacks then release the grip that Israel - like America - has on other countries.Try the moral high ground instead of propagandized cruelty and disregarding of the rest of the world's views.
This particular commenter did once say "Most Jews are wonderful but some Jews are entitled..."
That, in addition to them continuously not listening to anything you say and harping on this point no one made that everyone wants protests banned because Jews feel unsafe (?)
tells me everything i need to know about their views.
Most reasonable people have not said protesting should "stop."
You're willfully ignoring or deliberately choosing to not listen to the Jews who have indeed been victims of antisemitism, violence, hate crimes. Countless queer Jews sat Pride our because of deeply hurtful things the community they trusted have said.
You haven't been to every single protest and apparently haven't seen footage of the many that do in fact demonize Jews.
There are large swaths of protestors who are only inclusive of or nice to Jews they approve of.
Like it or not, Oct 7 and memories of The Holocaust to name but 2 instances of violence against Jews are deeply painful.
That has nothing to do with Palestinian suffering. It does not detract from what is happening to them.
If someone is incapable of recognizing more than 1 group of peoples oppression then, sorry, theyre just not very smart and I dont really think their opinions hold water.
If you have to ignore or diminish a group of peoples actual pain for your cause then you're not intersectional....
And how is that going to lead to peace here or abroad?
This isn't the Suffering Olympics.
I recognize and empathize with those who suffer. It's one of my main motivations - genuinely.
Currently the main aim is to help the non combatants in Palestine. And the theatre around that - by both sides in protests and debates - pales by comparison. Were the holocaust happening now I'd be doing the same, not campaigning for Germans upset by protests against it.
This is an oversimplification, and my advice would be to listen to the many Jewish people who have experienced an increase in the normalization of anti-Semitism.
You don't get to tell people what they should or should not care about--there are many ongoing atrocities across the world right now that dwarf what is happening in Gaza. Does that mean I can tell you that it's ridiculous for you to care about Gaza?
The rising anti-Semitism is **real** and it is affecting Jews across the world right now. Jews are .2% of the global population. Handwaving it away as "theatre" around the conflict, and comparing it to Germans being upset about people protesting the Holocaust is dismissive and just straight up absolutely gross.
Comparing the feelings of students to Israel killing innocent Palestinians shows how distorted and selective your racism is.
I'm not dismissing it but I am putting into context. Which it seems you cannot.
I am not **comparing the feelings of students to Israel killing Palestinians**, you dolt.
I am saying that **it is valid to be concerned about both** and that you handwaving and dismissing away very real anti-Semitism and making comparisons about the Holocaust here are gross.
You don't care about anti-Semitism. You can just say that and move on, because it's clear you don't care about anti-Semitism.
I would say that actively arguing against anti-Semitism getting attention from people who care about anti-Semitism is the wrong thing to do here.
It's not a contest about what tragedy is worse. If your mom died in a car accident tomorrow and you were sad about it, I wouldn't say, "Oh well, there are kids starving in Africa so stop being a pussy about it."
The threat of anti-Semitism is real, the normalization of anti-Semitism is real.
If you don't care about it, don't. But getting upset that other people care about it is wildly stupid.
This is why there's a problem.
You won't answer the question because you want to continue to focus on feelings rather than physical violence.
It's selective and to be clear it's racist.
Normalizing and downplaying anti Semitism directly leads to physical violence. physical violence is happening to Jews and it hasn't stopped.
Jews have been ethnically cleansed from various regions in the ME. Jew hatred is alive and well.
You think Israel isnt full of dead Jews for a lack of trying?
Racist? Do you think Jews are just white people indigenous to Poland and Brooklyn? Do you think only white people live in Israel? This isn't happenibg because all of Israel wants to oppress the brown people (as if Jews aren't brown anyway)
I'd argue it is racism of low expectations the belief that Palestinians are incapable of doing anything but launching rockets at Israel. Noble savages
Stop killing Palestinians. Release those imprisoned without charge and tortured. Get out of Palestine. Drop Apartheid laws.
Nobody wants anyone who is peace loving and respectful to others to feel intimidated. Jews, Muslims, any race or religion.
But the feelings of anger and distress people have over what Israel is doing are a consequence of those acts. Start there, if attitudes and protests against it distress you.
You are absolutely oblivious to the history of the region and this conflict and willfully ignorant.
Release the hostages. Hamas step down. Hezbollah stop launching rockets. Iranian Islamist Regime stop existing and killing and torturing and raping your people and aiding and funding Hamas.
Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which worked directly with the Nazis in its mission to eradicate Jews. But tell me again how anti semitism is irrelevant.
Hamas wants Jews dead more than it wants prosperity for its people.
it is patently false and delusional to say that "nobody wants anyone who is peace loving to feel intimidated."
Maybe Hamas should have not done October 7. Unless.... they don't give a shit how many Palestinians are killed for their suicidal nationalism because they all are martyrs. Brilliant scheme really. Convince yourself your people are worth more dead than alive.
Many Palestinians are sick of Hamas, as well. But when they protest them they're beaten and tortured.
Ah well
Blame the Jews!
So they wrote about something happening with Jews so it’s a distraction? They aren’t the ones that even broke the story. LOL
This might surprise you but the news is supposed to write about the news. This being news that’s why it was written. Crazy how it has to be a crazy conspiracy with you.
I don't have an issue with them writing about it, I have an issue with you and others considering it any kind of reasonable impartial reference in a debate.
What a shocker that an Israeli newspaper dedicates more time and energy to things that affect Jews. It doesn't mean that it's wrong or subpar in its reporting.
It is always preferable to have sources detached from the issue.
When the issue here is disinformation from both sides, publishing one side's narrative as a starting point is disingenuous.
What if sources detached from the issue don't want to shine a light on certain minority issues? Wasn't that the case for years and why we currently have so many different outlets and dedicated groups specifically shining light on minority experiences--**because** those experiences were marginalized and swept under the rug for so long and not given attention?
Would you be similarly upset if a media source geared towards black readership wrote an article about a hate crime against a black person when that news article was not being picked up on by white majority newspapers?
Ok, the context is any country who according to the UN illegally occupying a country and stealing property, giving different rights to people and killing hundreds of civilians a day. Whilst openly pouring money into foreign countries elections.
If that country started giving prominence to their people feeling unsafe during protests against that killing in a foreign country, I would suggest that the main aim was distraction. Yes.
I mean you clearly do saying it’s a distraction. So you clearly do have a problem that it was written.
Plenty of other sources reporting the same thing. Let alone the school board has not even denied anything said. So you don’t really have an argument to stand on.
Have they written about the enrollment of the Orthodox Jews into army yet?
Dude don’t fight on Reddit go to the frontline and defend your promised land!
If a rag like Al Jazeera gets quoted and statistics from Hamas run organisations are seen as gospel, I don't see the problem with jpost. Besides, you're trying to dodge the main issue: did jpost fabricate the texts? If not, the source shouldn't matter
Lmao. Wasn’t Al Jazeera one of the first who claimed that “500 people were killed with a Israeli missile at the Al shifa hospital”? Only to turn out that it was actually a Palestinian one that hit the parking lot and the death count went immediately down to 30? They just spew Hamas propaganda
They reported the initial claims and they reported new facts as the story was feeling just like every single other news source. So it's obvious that "credibility" isn't the issue here. You're just mad that AJ has the audacity to call out your country's crimes for what they are. And that's why nobody cares what you or your trash government think about Al Jazeera.
Credibility isnt the issue? What? Your "reputable" news site reported **unconfirmed** allegations just because they believed Hamas point blank without any proof. How can you be so fucking biased. There is a big difference between "our hospital hit by an israeli missile and killed 500 people" and " OUR 'missile' misfired and hit the hospital parking lot killing 30". Im mad that Al Jazeera has the audacity to just spew lies as long as it hurts Israel. "Reputable" news source my ass
We've been over this before. And I'm not going to explain it to you again. Do you have another talking point you'd like me to throw back at you? Because otherwise we can end this conversation.
I think it’s an argument of conflict of interest. The points may be valid but I agree I’ve seen a lot of jposts on Worldnews and it just isn’t a great source to use when referring to the conflict. It’s like using RT for Russian Ukraine war. Like Al Jazeera isn’t great but at least it isn’t based out of Gaza
True, but it's funded by the Qatari government and the majority of Hamas leaders *are* based out of Qatar, living there under state protection.
I do agree with you, though. The problem with biased news these days is that they don't report anything that's easy to prove fake. They just report certain facts and not others. In that respect, jpost is definitely biased.
However, there's only one question thats relevant here. Did these people really send the texts or are they fake? Or in other words, did the people who were responsible for mediating a potentially heated situation, and who were in charge if all students, discriminate against or ignore the concerns of some on the basis of their politics or religion? That's really all there is to it imo.
> True, but it's funded by the Qatari government and the majority of Hamas leaders are based out of Qatar, living there under state protection.
Qatar is a major non nato Ally of the US, we would send troops to die if Qatar was attacked. Not sure why we'd paint them as some terrorist sympathizing state unless ...
I suppose I’d say this. Sure you can ask that question but long term I wish world news would stop allowing franky jpost or - Al jazeria when it comes to this conflict or topic. It just muddys the waters
World news almost exclusively posts jpost articles. But thats not really relevant to this sub unless they share the same mods or something
My main question still stands. Did they actually send the texts? If yes there really shouldn't be anything more to it, given the facts we currently have about thhe situation
I read the article and when they show the whole texts and what they're about it doesn't even come close to the implications from the title. They show texts where they're complaining that non-zionist jews (who are the majority of jews in America) aren't getting the kind of media boost that the zionist ones have.
So the zionists would be limited to Israelis in America who are visiting/studying abroad? That would make it around 1% of the Jews in America so saying they're the minority seems silly.
I think they meant the typical definition of Zionism which is believing in Israel's right to exist, or they simply mean Jews who side with Israel in the conflict. However, that would put it at about 90% of the Jews, so "minority" wouldn't make sense.
Either way I'm confused as to what that could've meant lol.
That's a good question!
I once tried to post an article from a Chinese outlet reporting the government position on protecting Iran's sovereignty.
And was blocked.
What better source could there be for the Chinese government position - the NYT? ;)
>Comes from such a place of privilege
Lol, jews privileged? Seriously? You need only only open a history book from 63 BC onward to see that isn't true. It's so strange too the mask come off in academia.
Poland. Israel is part of the great Judeo-Polish-Ukranian Empire. See the Holocaust was just cover to give the Eastern European imperial powerhouses a reason to ship Jews to Palestine so they could gather resources and raw materials to send back to the motherland for processing.
This whole Israel-Palestine thing will blow over once the colonists are shipped back to Eastern Europe.
What makes you feel that attacking and targeting a religious group is somehow more ok than an ethnic group?
Like, it would be fine to you if people attacked religious Jews but not secular Jews?
Because criticizing a religion is different than criticizing an ethnicity....? Religions are chosen ideologies. You are born with your ethnicity. You can criticize religions just like you can freely criticize political parties.
And what do you mean by attack? I criticize different aspects of Jewish religion all the time. I'm Jewish. If I were not Jewish and started criticizing Jews as an ethnic group, that would be different because it would be racism.
One is an ideology you have chosen, the other is your ethnicity.
Why would you criticize someone for their religion? That's not linked to how you behave as a person or how moral you are.
Let me set things straight. If tomorrow Trump and Biden said Judaism is evil and should disappear but secular Jews are fine and dandy, would you be ok with this?
There are aspects of various religions that I find distasteful and at odds with my own morals. Certain aspects of religion are even dangerous. Criticizing them is fair game. After all, they're belief systems from thousands of years ago written by men who wanted to exert some sort of control over their societies, whether that be moral or political or both. Just because some people think those belief systems are perfect systems passed down by God doesn't mean I need to agree with them and not criticize those belief systems or actively work to stop them if they start oppressing the rights of others.
Would you not criticize Scientology because it's a religion? Would you not criticize a religious group attempting to strip women from having equal rights? A religious person should be free to believe whatever they like, but the minute that belief system starts trampling on the rights of others is where I draw a line. Any ideology you adhere to should be able to be questioned, whether that be religious or political or about whether the Star Wars sequels are bad or not.
If Trump and Biden came out and said Judaism was evil, that would obviously violate the US constitution, which I support, so yes, I would not be okay with that. However, if Jews in my neighborhood started trampling on the rights of the non-Jews in my neighborhood, I would also not be okay with that.
You seem eager to get into these really oversimplistic arguments.
Really, against the constitution? If you're American you know it's fair game to say whatever you want about a religion.
See, you're playing both sides of the argument for your convenience. You first said that Islam is a religion and thus it's fair to criticize because it's a choice unlike ethnicity, and thus more akin to an ideology (it's not near the same really but anyway I won't discuss that).
Ok, that means that you can say Islam is evil, Christianity is evil, and of course that Judaism is evil. Those are ideas, you can attack any idea in the US. You can even chant that you are freedom and democracy.
But somehow you now are against politicians denouncing Judaism.
Smells like rights for me, but not for thee
Freedom of religion is literally enshrined in the Constitution as the First Amendment, my guy.
Individuals can criticize religions all they want, but states and government leaders demanding a religion cease to exist is in violation of the Constitution.
I'm not playing both sides here. You just seem to not understand the First Amendment.
True. In case of Israel it’s accurate though as countless Holocaust researchers confirm.
There is also no other explanation for the attempt to cut off a population from food and water.
Nothing wrong with that if this is not public education building. Any billionaire can sponsor construction for X purpose.
Its not illegal. You guys at US before 2022 even got Confucious institute that being sponsor by the gov.
Money can do anything. (Not argue with you,but explaining stuff before other say jews conspiracy and shit)
And i get downvote for stating fact. They say worldnews is propaganda subreddit but at least thet can give better argument than this silent downvote. 🤣
This sub ain't different.
>Nazi talking points huh?
What about his comment was Nazi talking points?
I'm not denying it, btw, I'm not extremely well versed in Nazi talking points as trained and knowledgeable as the Israelis are, so I missed the connection.
First off, I won’t deny that the speaker may have lied or exaggerated. Secondly, I’m not an Israeli. I’m just a guy who’s studied history and politics and knows how to read these types’ talking points.
I guess I should say anti-Semitic rather than Nazi talking points. The admin saying things like “I’m going to throw up” because somebody is addressing a real problem of antisemitism on-campus, and the commenter saying they “have a point”, are very antisemitic and unsettling
>Ultimately, it all comes down to how well you can read their intent in saying something rather than what they are actually saying
Oh. Okay. I'm kinda bad at that. I can't even read my wife's intent in saying something rather what she is actually saying! (laugh track)
It’s something that takes honing.
I recommend watching Innuendo Studios’ “The Alt-Right Playbook” series. Tankies and fascists use shockingly similar tactics in “debate” (calling it that is a stretch). I guess it’s because they’re both groups that support authoritarians
In all honesty, maybe you aren’t. I don’t know you personally. I will say that agreeing with what the deans said without finding any fault with it is pretty iffy.
It’s not iffy if you’re able to read the full article from an entity other than JPost. JPost is the news arm of the Israeli Government. They are creating these articles with the intention of leveling antisemitism accusations at student protestors.
The administrators were suspended for questioning the multi-million dollars donated to the Israel organization on campus that protected Israeli students.
I agree that the JPost is incredibly biased, and heavily involved in spreading propaganda. However, I’m more interested in what the people in question have said and done, and that the story was most heavily pushed by JPost doesn’t change the fact that these deans have been revealed to be bad people who can’t be trusted with the jobs that they hold.
It also doesn’t change that there have been a rash of antisemitic incidents as of late, and that college students (as well as progressives as a whole) are willing to accept antisemites and pro-Hamas agitators.
Considering what they have said, I find it hard to believe that they donated to the “Israel organization” (are you referring to Hillel or another group? I don’t know what the Israel organization is and a google search turned up nothing). I would appreciate if you could link where you heard/read that
The way I see it, even if they did donate, what one does publicly and what one believes are different things. If they did donate out of the goodness of their hearts I would praise them, but I have little faith
I don’t have faith in people.
If they really cared about Palestinians, why would these people attack Jews who have nothing to do with what’s going on in Gaza. And why, if they care so much about genocide, do they never protest about any other genocide anywhere else in the world.
You’ll notice also that a lot of these people are never critical of Russia or China, even though these two countries have governments similar to Netanyahu’s in both their means and their ends
No where in this thread talk “cared about Palestinian”, so I’m still not sure what are you yapping about.
I care little about Palestinians, and i find myself agreeing with this thread. People can complain when Jewish has multi-million dollars building and still cry for attention.
Again nothing about Palestinians, nothing about anything you are yapping about.
There are plenty of people bringing up the oppression of Palestinians in one way or another, even though it isn’t relevant.
To the part about Russia and China, I’m doing this little thing called using prior experience. I know for a fact that plenty of people who are “pro-Palestine” are also what would be called “tankies”. They want autocratic regimes such as those of Hamas, Russia, China, Iran, and others to crush the United States, because they have the delusion that being anti-Western automatically makes you good.
This doesn’t seem anti-Semitic. White Jews, especially Zionists, in the US definitely have more privilege than the Palestinian students. And the U.S. puts tons of money into Zionist endeavors because Israel is a U.S. satellite.
Your entire comment is antisemitic. Jews aren’t white, just ask any far right Nazi.
How do jews have more privilege than Palestinian students in the US?
…white Jews are white, yes. Not at all controversial.
Are you genuinely asking me how white Jews have more privelige than Arabs living in the U.S.??? Lmao.
The Jews who even just protest with Palestinians are getting beaten and arrested while we have to center every Zionist who feels “unsafe” during an actual Holocaust of Palestinian people. You’ve lost the plot.
Zionists never do have a decent grasp on reading comprehension. Reread the first sentence of that comment back and let me know how it’s possible to arrive at your point.
Ethiopian Jews have been systematically sterilized by Israel. There’s been issues of them facing racism in the IDF.
The presidents and PMs have only ever been ashkenazi. The power structure is literally run by white Jews lmao.
12 Ethiopian Jews were slaughtered on 10/7 and pretty much all of them are Zionists for Israel saving their lives in the 1970s.
Israel has apologized for what happened with sterilization, which occurred during the AIDS epidemic when little was known. I love how Jew haters love to bring this up during every single argument I have.
So you couldn’t clarify in any way that you didn’t read my comment.
I don’t care what Zionists think.
Israel systematically only sterilized the African Jews but it was a whoopsie and everything is fine now. Israel definitely doesn’t have a repeated issues with anti-blackness at all. Give me a break.
Does that mean that the moment the Jewish population is greater than it was in say 1939, the Holocaust didn't happen anymore?
How could the population have grown otherwise?
You idiots don’t understand how genocide works.
The Bosnian genocide only killed like 4,000 people. Their population figures weren’t affected by it. Genocide doesn’t take into account overall population figures.
You don’t have to reply to threads when you don’t understand the basics.
It deffinitely is not a holocaust. Holocaust comes the from the name of burning religious offerings, and, well, that jives with the whole crematorium aspect.
Palestinians are undergoing a much more traditional genocide. So let's just call it slaughter, or genocide. You are right
> 102 day old account
> generic reddit-created username with random words and numbers
> no posts
> literally, and I do mean literally, every single comment is arguing for Zionism, for Israeli policy, or arguing against pro-Palestinians
You are actually a shill account.
That's a pretty neat way to delegitimise someone's argument. Just call them a shill account. Would you like to guess if I'm a "hasbara bot" before or after you hear which side I'm on?
I don’t need to de-legitimize the argument that Jews can’t be white or the argument that Palestinians in the United States are more privileged than Jewish U.S citizens because they’re absurd on their face and hold no legitimacy.
I called that person a shill account because it’s obviously not a normal account being run by a person in good faith, and their commenting behavior suggests not a bot. At best, it’s a pro-Zionist Israeli who made an account only to argue with/insult Palestinian supporters on reddit. At worst, it is a legitimate bad faith actor. You know, like the ones openly being produced by governments around the world during wars and elections, both of which are in full abundance at the moment. If you don’t check to see whether content you come across is being produced in good faith or not, that’s something you should probably be doing more.
I wouldn’t call you a Hasbara bot because taking the same ten second glance at your profile as I did theirs, I can see that you 1) make posts 2) about a variety of topics and interests 3) while leaving comments about more than just a single topic. It’s….pretty simple actually.
It's not simple, but your explanation was simplistic. How often do you think the term 'bot' gets thrown around these days just because you disagree with someone? I'll tell you. I lost count of the number of times I saw Indians who were dismissed as 'bots' because they suggested we should wait for evidence before taking the Canadian PM at his word when he accused the Indian government of extrajudicial murder. I was one of them. It was just 'troll army' this, or 'hyper nationalist' that all day. So forgive me if I'm a little skeptical.
> It’s not simple
I’m sorry, what are you not understanding here? I didn’t call the other person a shill because of their opinion, I called them a shill because their nearly brand-new profile had literally no content except hundreds of pro-Israeli comments. You can easily verify this for yourself.
In comparison, you are obviously an account from a normal user because you make actual posts and comment about varied apolitical interests in a number of different subreddits in addition to political discussions.
> So forgive me if I’m a little skeptical
What are you skeptical about?
Are you skeptical that “Jews aren’t white” and “Palestinians are more privileged than U.S Jewish citizens” might not be terrible arguments unworthy of addressing?
Are you skeptical that the person I replied to has made no effort to post anything other than pro-Zionist comments in political subreddits?
Are you skeptical over the existence of bad faith actors on the internet in a year of a dozen consequential national elections and two long-term conflicts?
> Is that a crime these days on Reddit?
Get over yourself lol. When you’re a relatively new account that does literally nothing except argue in defense of the actions of a government, particularly one which openly uses online disinformation agents in the most peaceful times and currently is engaged in an internationally unpopular military campaign while waging a war over information against the Palestinian cause, then don’t be surprised when people suspect you might be a bad actor. Especially when your arguments are “Jews can’t be white because Nazis don’t consider them white” and “Palestinian students are more privileged than U.S Jewish citizens” lmao
If I did literally nothing except comment pro-CIA arguments while keeping the generic reddit-generated profile name with numbers, it would be pretty fucking fair for people to wonder if I was a US government shill.
So are both of those statements I made not true? Which religious group has the most hate crimes against them in the United States? Jews are not white, especially Sephardic and Ethiopian Jews. If I showed you a pic of a Palestinian and an Israeli you wouldn’t be able to show me the difference.
No actually they’re not lmao. I don’t use Nazi definitions of racial purity to exclude the possibility of Jewish people being considered white. I also don’t believe foreign Muslim students are more privileged than white U.S citizens.
> Which religious group has the most hate crimes against them in the United States?
I’m not saying there aren’t people who hate people for being Jewish, I’m stating that U.S citizens who are Jewish are absolutely more privileged than foreign students. That’s true of any U.S citizen of any faith over any foreign student.
> Jews are not white, especially Shepardic and Ethiopian Jews
I didn’t say all Jews are white, I said that Jewish people can be white. Which they can. I know this because I’ve been friends with many white-ass Jewish people. This isn’t complicated lmao. You even mentioning the Ethiopian Jewish community proves that Jewish people can be of wildly different ethnicities and races.
If we’re using Nazi definitions of race, would you consider the Italians, Irish, or Slavic peoples non-white?
“Jews aren’t white, just ask this small percentage of extremely racist white people” ignoring that the vast majority of regular racist white people can’t tell yall apart.
It was during the AIDS epidemic when little was known and Israel apologized for it. Ethiopian Jews are huge Zionists and 12 Ethiopian Jews were slaughtered by Hamas on 10/7.
I don't really understand this whole 'privilege' thing. Is person A given a free pass to do whatever to person B because they're less 'privileged'? I'm from a third world country and I'd say that in many respects I'm less privileged than an American. Are you saying that if I took a flight to the US I'd get to harass people without any consequences?
Privilege is place by place, context by context. In your fishpond you likely - don't know your situation so can't be certain - have some form of privilege compared to the outgroups there. On an international stage, you certainly *don't*, as your interests are bulldozed over by the interests of people in wealthier and more powerful nations. If you moved to the USA? Honestly depends on skin colour and how well you can 'pass' as one of them.
In practice, privilege is like... can you walk down the street without having to be *reasonably worried* about being attacked because of who you are or what you believe? Do you have to fear interactions with law enforcement or the government? Is there some part of your identity that you are constantly reminded of because people treat you differently because of it? If you answered 'no' to all of those, congrats you have the 'privilege' of not being in an outgroup. And a all those things contribute *constant* stress just from existing, and chronic long-term stress *measurably causes damage to your cells/organs faster*, leading to a lower lifespan. Less stress literally equals longer life.
Its a fact that stress has a physical impact on your body, but if that's the argument you're going for I'd rally harder against poverty more than anything else.
Heres my problem with your logic though (nad disclaimer: I'm really trying to understand, not being sarcastic or anything. I apologise if it comes across that way)
Lets say you have two groups, A and B that are in a conflict.
Both groups are equally responsible for starting the conflict, and both have a roughly equal desire to eliminate members of the other group.
Group A is richer than B, so they can afford tanks and missiles while group B has to make do with pipe bombs and stones. So for every 10 A deaths we have 100 B deaths. *However, there is only a difference in the means available, not the intent*
Based on this information and the logic of privilege we decide to support B, until they have even better missiles and tanks. Now A is the underdog, and for every 100 B deaths we get 1000 A deaths.
Now what? Am I supposed to support A because they're less privileged? Isn't that just a seesaw of violence?
Oh yeah, poverty is 100% a crime against humanity, and the fact that it isn't held up as a condemnation of capitalism for the sheer number of lives cut short is a fucking travesty.
Okay I get what you're trying to say here, and yeah I thought the same until I started looking into the history of Israel V Palestine. I support Palestine *not* because of 'privilege' but because the historical facts are that the people who became the Israelis threw the first stones.
Some important points that are honestly pretty obscure if you're not looking through historical documents:
1) There was a difference between 'Jewish people who were living in peace in the Levant at the turn of the century' and 'the band of *actual ethnofascists* who came across from Europe to explicitly colonise and expel the Palestinians. Yes, they were fascists, you can read their own beliefs in their own writing on Israel's online archives. They popped up in the same 'wave' of international fascist thought that produced Mussolini and the Nazis. They believed (and still believe) in this 'warrior democracy' deal where the right to vote only comes from being a soldier for a 'new Kingdom Of David'. Like, the 'rebirth' of Hebrew as a modern language (and the *cultural genocide of existing Jewish dialects*) was them fucking *larping* as Bronze Agers.
2) The conflict was in fact started by 'militia groups' of said fascists doing terrorism and then *deliberately hiding among the uninvolved Jewish people who were already in the Levant to turn the Palestinians against them*. These people viewed the Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews (the Jewish ethnic groups who lived in North Africa and the Middle East) as *explicitly lesser than themselves*, and deliberately pulled them into the line of fire of a fight *they* started.
3) There was a thing called the King-Crane Report on the situation in the Levant during the British rule, have a read, it predicted the current course of events 100%. It outright stated that the only route to peace was a multicultural Levantine state. The British ignored this and awarded all the *good* land to make 'Israel', as governed by those, again, *fascists*.
4) The subsequent expulsion of Jews from surrounding countries wasn't so much antisemitism as it was realpolitik; just a few years earlier the Nazis did a 'we're protecting Germans living in X' thing to various countries. The Arabic nations saw that and decided to not take chances. Still *wrong*, but they didn't do it because 'hate Jews' as some would have you think. The narrative that the Arabic nations attacked Israel 'unprovoked' leaves *out* the stuff the Israelis were yelling about 'reclaiming the Kingdom of David', an area that encompassed a *lot* of the Middle East (and is entirely mythical); not so much 'unprovoked' as 'they're saying they're coming for us, take them at their word'.
5) There are *two kinds of antisemitism*. There is 'European antisemitism', which was birthed by the Roman Empire when they adopted Christianity and explained 'uh why did Romans murder our god' with 'oh *they* made us do it'. European antisemitism is *all* baseless conspiracy theory brainworms. Pretty much *every* conspiracy theory in Western society can be traced to this antisemitism. Now *Islamic* antisemitism is a different beast entirely, born from 'my people fight your people fight my people' and is frankly no different from all the other tribal differences in the world. Prior to the 20th century, this was indistinguishable from 'Germans hate French hate English etc etc'. In the 21st century with the internet they've merged *somewhat*, but still have very different roots.
6) You don't hear about half the shit Israel does. Like, this is a fact, not an opinion. Everyone was screaming about October 7th breaking a 'years-long truce' when just the year before Israeli forces slaughtered hundreds of peaceful protesters from Gaza marching to demand the same Right of Return to their homeland as Jewish people are given. A foreign protestor once tried to prevent the demolition of a Palestinian family's house as retribution for something that family didn't have anything to do with. She was crushed by the bulldozer, no one was punished and *to this day* Israelis make memes mocking her. The guy who founded Hamas, the rabid dogs that rule Gaza with an iron fist? The reason he hated Israel is because Israeli soldiers literally tortured his son to death in front of him.
I want Palestine to not be oppressed and imposed upon by Israel. The British fucked up big time in 1948. The world needs to step in and do something.
It’s getting hard to keep supporting killings of non combatants on both sides.
Yeah, Israel “hit them first” but idk how so many people try to act like Hamas are just fighting a war and not also killing Innocents.
So is Israel. They both are. It’s so fucked. I support Palestinian freedom, but honestly I don’t support the way Hamas conducts themselves. I don’t really have to to know what’s happening is wrong.
I just want it to end. But I refuse to cheer on either side, innocents are dying on both sides to intentional terror attacks, apart from collateral. It’s not just a war between combatants.
There is a really tough question here about innocence and civilian status that gets swept under the rug. Israel practices universal conscription (with exceptions for the religious ultra-orthodox nutters who support genocide anyway) and those who refuse often spend years in jail if they don't fit into the limited 'allowed' reasons to refuse. It's been the policy of the Israeli military to cycle those conscripts through Gaza and the West Bank to blood them against the Palestinians; to put blood on their hands and make them complicit, which is an extension of standard military doctrine worldwide (break them down build them up how you want them).
So, when that conscript who took part in the murder of actual innocents finishes the tour and puts down the gun... are they a civilian? Are they an innocent? Is retaliation against them *for the things they did in fact do* morally wrong? To be clear, this consists of at least 50% of Israeli adults under the age of 30 (smaller proportion as you go back to older generations, it used to not include women).
Let me be clear; I have no answers here. This is a question that is so *monumentally fucked up* you could spend a lifetime trying to figure it out. I just know that it's a question that the media very much ignores in trying to portray dead Israelis as being 'just the same' as any person in another country, when in reality most are military veterans, many of whom have blood on their hands by action or by inaction.
According to (obviously sus) sources, about 40,000 Israeli’a serve in combat positions, and less than that participate in combat. Which I think is a good point to your point considering there are almost 10 million people in Israel
Also another counter point is many of the civilians attacked by Hamas are kids and women or non soldiers.
This is a good point though, and it illustrates how complicated this situation really is. Which is why it can be so annoying reading or participating in discourse around it because everyone wants to pretend they have the whole of the situatjon figured out and have all the facts. Very very few people do and they are most likely scholars or very close to the situation politically.
I, unlike many in online spaces, don’t presume to know the best course of action, all I know is that Israel needs to be controlled so as to stop what’s happening to Palestine, but also those Israeli citizens aside from the 40,000 at most fighting in Palestine need to be protected.
My priority would be to do whatever stops the deaths of non combatants.
It’s understandable why it has devolved into what it has, and it’s all well and good to have that understanding that Hamas is fighting an oppressor, while also realizing they have lost the plot and are killing women and children, as well as committing rape. And I don’t want to hear anything about it being propoganda because I saw the graphic videos
So the innocent civilians from both Palestine and Israel need saving from their own respective powers that be.
Once again no surprise it’s the ones in pier fucking everything up with a complete lack of compassion or tact
I would agree with most of these points, only dissenting in
1) that the events of Oct 7th are still in doubt because a) Israel refuses to let the UN investigate and confirm claims and b) a *lot* of sensationalist claims, especially the murder of children, just kinda vanished? As in, not even Israeli news could produce anything to back them up, and when I tried to look into them, a lot those claims were made by 'responders' which is the term for IDF soldiers. And a lot of the folks who *stick around* beyond conscription are the... well *ideologically committed* or batshit crazy murderjunkies; the IDF has literally been doing nothing for decades but brutalise Palestinian civilians and fire artillery. It takes a certain kind of sicko to *enjoy* that. I fully believe that children died, because *war is war and children always die*, but the most sensationalist claims don't seem to have anything behind them, even by Israeli media standards.
2) That is approx 40,000 *regulars*, aka the career folks. I went looking for sources and found one academic study from 1995 that stated at the time the IDF comprised 135,000 conscripts. More current numbers suggest 170,000 currently under arms and a further half a million reservists, aka people who after their conscription chose to be in the reserve.
40,000 in combat positions. Those who would fire a rifle at Hamas or potentially commit a war crime. 40,000 out of those 135,000 (or 170,000) would be in a combat position. That was what I was trying to say.
I don’t really think someone being forced into an army justifies their murder when they aren’t even in a combat position.
Also, on the day of October 7th, there were many videos posted and soon taken down that I don’t think everyone got to see. There are still many you can go watch. I will concede I didn’t see any of the videos from claims about baby’s, young children, BUT I did see many videos of women and young teen looking age women being shot, running for their lives and ducking behind cover, etc. I also have a really hard time believing no rape occurred, and this doesn’t reflect my view of Palestinians, but my view of Hamas at this point In time. I do think perhaps the “babies and kids” thing was propoganda. So I’ll concede there. But I saw a lot of brutality against those who had done nothing to them directly. I opposed the war in Iraq but im American so if an Iraqi militiamen killed me would it be justified? That’s kinda how I feel about it. Even if I was conscripted to a non combat position.
So I didn’t get my impression from listening to biased IDF frontline soldiers I just saw the videos that day. It wasn’t an attack on those who attacked them but an attack on their loved ones as well, which I just can’t get behind. I can understand why someone in their position might feel the desire to do that, so I won’t get all emotional about it, but I can’t logically support that.
There are just as many videos online of IDF beating Palestinians or whatever else so I’m not trying to just focus on one side either.
The reality is Palestine can’t handle this kind of oppression without becoming self destructive and unethical in the process. This may not necessarily be their fault, as the world is standing by and letting them fight alone, but the fact is they have devolved morally and are now murdering non combatants and even their own civilians in rare cases, as well as keeping food and aid from them to go toward the war effort (which again I guess I understand a militia prioritizing their war effort but I can’t support making people starve or not get infrastructure)
I’m enjoying this conversation btw, it’s nice to not have ad hominem attacks thrown at you immediately or a speculation on your background/supposed agenda
Part of my issue with accepting Israeli claims about Oct 7th is that a lot of videos are unsourced. There was in fact stuff being circulated in the days after that *were* faked, or at least were presented *as* fakes, and this is the core of my desire for the UN to investigate so actual facts can be discerned. I also appreciate a conversation with someone who isn't an absolute nutter going 'anything is justified' whichever side they're on.
I agree that it needs serious scrutiny and investigation. I saw some brutal stuff when all the original videos came out on the random combat footage subs and whoever was doing it was doing it for real, and I saw it. So I can’t say that it was actually who they say it was, and that does need to be investigated.
I do remember there being fake ones after the fact as well, which only makes things more complicated. Also why I was referring to the day of October 7th because if you were in the right places on the internet you saw it as it was happening. Supposed Hamas sources would release it like throughout the day of the 7th.
Most of it was chaos and blurry but I did see dead women, teen women running and hiding, and dead civilian men.
So yeah it is just all around messed up.
I wish that the world superpowers would actually step in and control this situation. This is what happens when the oppressed are left to their own defense for so long, they devolve into self detriment. Which sucks cause you have one side completely ignoring everything bad their chosen side does and will justify it even, and the other side only focusing on the bad things they have done without any context
What's to end goal though? It's impossible to roll back to borders to pre-20th century status on the basis of crimes that were committed almost a century ago. Regarding your points.
2. Is pretty much what Hamas is doing today. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.
4. Again, ethnic cleansing based on 'realpolitik' is something that according to you both sides seem to be guilty of. You can't really justify one without the other.
5. All forms of religious and race discrimination is conspiracy theory brainworms. It's not justifiable to attack Jews living in the US or Europe based on what other Jews are doing in the middle East.
6. You're right, I don't hear half the shit Israel does. But that doesn't absolve Hamas of any of the gang rapes or massacres. Israel is not innocent and they have a lot of blood on their hands and a lot of crimes to answer for. But if their explicit goal was to wipe out all Palestinians, this conflict would've been over a long time ago. They don't care how many Palestinian children they have to bomb in order to maybe kill a single Hamas soldier. But Hamas' *goal* is to kill Israeli civilians for its own sake. That's how I'd differentiate Israel and certain Arab groups who openly want to kill Jews for the sake of killing Jews
Okay first, these were not crimes committed a century ago. The two Nabka genocide attempts happened to people who are still in living memory. When it comes to end goals, there are three possible outcomes. First, Israel wins and genocides the Palestinians. The need for an external enemy to keep their political machine running will bring them against other nations.
Second, some nation or group of nations sets down a taskforce in the middle of the situation with the injunction 'kill whoever crosses these borders'. This would lead to festering hate that would just keep on going.
Third, the second, but it's 'you are one nation now, everyone has one vote, *get along or else*'. The third is the most difficult short-term, but is the only real solution long-term; large groups of Israelis *and* Palestinians only hate because their lives are in danger, their rights are trampled, etc etc. Force those issues to go away and the 'war war war' groups lose a lot of their support and eventually die off. It ain't *pretty*, but it's been shown to work in somewhat-similar situations.
2. Not precisely. Hamas is different solely in that there is nowhere to go; Gaza is a closed prison-state and there is *literally nowhere that isn't full of civilians*. It's the difference between actively choosing a bad thing, and the bad thing being the only option, if that makes sense.
4. I'm not justifying shit, I'm explaining. It was an evil act, however the Zionists use it to propagandise that all Arabs intrinsically hate them, peace can never exist, blah blah blah eternal bloodshed for the motherland.
5. I mean, if you define brainworms as 'basic human tribalist instincts', sure. We do this thing of separating ourselves out
6. No. There's two things here; one, gangrapes are, while widely shouted about, not yet shown to actually happen, and Israel refuses to let the UN in to confirm those claims. Also Israel has a long history of doing the same; there's a documentary on the Nabka genocide attempt, and it featured actual IDF veterans from the period *laughing* about the shit they did, like raping teenage girls and killing fleeing civilians with flamethrowers. Those laughs will haunt me to the day I fucking die. But I'm not gonna say 'Hamas doesn't do that', *every* army does that. It's just part of what armies *do*. Israel is not seeking to kill Hamas soldiers. In fact, they are actively choosing actions that *don't* kill Hamas soldiers and instead kill civilians and destroy infrastructure, because the current Israeli government *needs* an eternal threat to justify it's rule. They are driving people to join Hamas for revenge *deliberately*.
Second, the international media likes to talk about Israeli civilians being killed, but never mentions that over 75% of 'civilians' in Israel are former IDF conscripts, due to Israel's draft. And it's Israeli military policy to cycle new conscripts through Gaza and the West Bank to blood them against Palestinians. Are those people civilians when they finish their tour? Is retaliation against them for the things they did as soldiers right or wrong? I certainly don't know.
By 'militia groups of fascists' I'm assuming you're talking about groups like the Haganah that existed from 1920-48, so yes, it was almost a century ago. More than that actually.
Also, when you're using laser guided munitions against a people who need to use their own water pipes to make rockets, I'd say you've already won. It's been that way for a couple of decades now. If total genocide was the intention it should've happened ages ago
Can you name a time when two groups of people who had long standing blood feuds were forced to work together and that actually got rid of their hate against each other? Usually they just stay together as long as the 'or else' enforcers are there. They second they leave it's business as usual.
1. If they were being forced to use human shields instead of intentionally using them, you'd see them at least *attempt* to build military infrastructure away from civilians. Instead you get Hamas rockets fired from school courtyards and bases under hospitals. It's not logical to say they're being forced to do that, since Gaza isn't covered end-to-end with un schools and civilian hospitals.
2. I don't think it's propaganda to claim that people from x group hate you for being from group y when you'd be killed solely for that reason. Are there any publically active Jews or Jewish organisations in Gaza?
3. There's a difference between subconsciously and automatically have biased against members of an 'outgroup' and actively killing them.
4. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp
4.5. A common counterpoint to the claim that Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas is that Hamas rules the area and it isn't safe to oppose them. How is some teenage kid in Israel supposed to refuse to enlist without any governmentally authorised 'valid' reason responsible for his conscription, using that logic? And even if he did pick up a gun, how is it justifiable to go house to house killing even younger children who aren't even old enough to read? Also, your enemy being a soldier doesn't give you a free pass to do whatever. There are things called POW camps. There is nothing in international law that says soldiers should be punished by rape and watching their entire family get massacred in front of them
Genocide does not need to be quick to be genocide. The Israeli policy has been 'slowly turn up the heat and inure Western politicians and decision-makers to the deaths of Palestinians bit by bit' after earlier politicians went off at them for shit they did in Lebanon.
1. Uh, their predecessors did. Then the Israelis destroyed it, drove the Gazans in tighter and built a new 'empty zone'. Rinse and repeat again and again. I am not exaggerating when I say there is *nowhere left*. Gaza is quite literally one of the most population-dense places on Earth. It cannot feed itself. It cannot water itself. Even though it is technically adjacent to the ocean, Israel practices piracy on any fishing boat that puts out to try and fish. Also, there was no base under a hospital. Like, when actually forced to show evidence on that, Israel had absolutely *nothing* to show for killing doctors and patients. There was an empty service tunnel, without even cabling for power. It was honestly pathetic.
2. Israel controls entry to Gaza (and on the other side Egypt maintains a 'we want none of this shit' policy. It is active policy to prevent *any* Jew who isn't lockstep with Israel in. The only Jewish faces the Gazans see are Israeli soldiers, and they are told again and again that Israel is 'doing this for all Jews'. Antisemitism is wrong but after a century can you blame the Palestinians for taking Israel at it's word for why it's doing this?
4. To be clear when I say 'it isn't safe to oppose Hamas' I mean they slaughtered their opposition. Defying Hamas gets examples made, and Hamas controls all the weapons *and* keeps most of the available food and water for military purposes. Defy Hamas and your kids might not get rations. Even then Hamas doesn't force Palestinians to *fight* for them, just not publicly oppose them. Refuse to serve in the IDF and you spend time in prison. It's not exactly the same penalty for the same act.
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Dude yes. Finally someone else saying what I’ve been thinking.
Both Israel and Hamas are so awful I could never support either in good faith. And to be honest, hamas’s influence on regular Palestinians has been damaging to say the least, and it isn’t wholly untrue to say that many of the regular citizens have the same goals as Hamas. This can be observed in countless protest videos or interviews. This is the same in Israel. Many citizens think they are doing the right thing, but obviously not all.
The only difference is the imbalance of power. They both hate each other and just want to wipe each other out. It almost doesn’t even matter who started it whether it was oct 7 or 1948 cause both sides are detestable now and they need to be controlled by the rest of the world. Both sides have completely lost the plot
Long text but in general its just a privelage of rich and poor. Nothing else. Its the class privelage. If u black and millionaire, u ain't gonna live in the hood and face the problem. You can even get a bodyguard and live in wealthy neighbourhood with private security. Fear interaction? Let lawyer handle it. Hamas leader still a billionaire with how bad Gaza place is. S
If u white and poor, u gonna live in the hood and face many problem and healthcare problem, discrimination from other, etc.
You black,white, asian, arab, christian, jews does not matter if u rich because money solve real world problem.
Even if we move to nation level, its also based on rich and powerful vs emerging nation that want to topple the top. Its all based on money and resource.
I also don’t get it and I don’t believe it’s a criterion to judge someone, if they refer to stats about median income of each group, they can just say richer, the word privileged is kinda loaded under some contexts. Also specific conditions like money, opportunities etc matter more than ethnicity, race or religion cause the differences are based on averages but averages aren’t true for all.
It’s crazy media initiatives care more about some students feeling unsafe and lying about violence upon them, than Israelis dropping white phosphorous on Gazan and Lebanese residents
It took years for New York Times to publish an article documenting settler terrorism in West Bank, but when some students reportedly feel unsafe(for political not ethnic/religious reasons) they get stories of “rising anti-semitism” almost instantly
You are right, they get shot instead
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/27/three-palestinian-students-aged-20-shot-injured-in-vermont-what-to-know
>Three young Palestinian men have been shot near a university campus in Vermont in the US weeks after a six-year-old Palestinian-American boy was stabbed to death, raising alarms against rising Islamophobia in the country.
No one even brought up israel.
It’s actually mind blowing you can’t understand the difference between American Jews and Israelis. Nor the fact that this happened at a United States university and it in Israel.
This is all about Israel. Otherwise there’s no story here. It’s a story about nothing. Students are protesting. There’s a cause for that. Israel is the cause.
I'm with you.
This thread is NUTS.
These idiots are anti-multicultural and therefore anti-American by their own definition. And they are likely to get Trump elected by dying on this hill.
They are also providing a PERFECT case for the need for a strong and secure Israel.
No it's just stupid because you don't seem to know what "indiscriminate" means.
For example the rockets and missiles launched at Israel are unguided. They are "indiscriminate". Guided munitions towards militants used by Israel are directed at valid military targets.
I'm glad you learned something today.
"These are our precision guided munitions and we've drastically increased the number of probable civilian casualties we're willing to accept to kill one bad guy when using them. We are the good guys."
The war is gaza has the LOWEST civilian death ratio of pretty much any war ever in an urban environment.
the LOWEST.
Meanwhile your side actively targets civilians.
Everyone knows that if you're a kid and you lose less than three familiy members to Jewish bombs, they won't become a Hamas fighter in the future.
It's all about the ratio's...
I'm not sad that Hamas is 'bring' destroyed, I just don't think that even killing all current Hamas fighters will end Hamas.
Their ideology will still continue to attract new fighters from the broken families that this war causes.
It's the inefficiency that bothers me. Why fight this war, and kill so many people, when it won't even achieve your primary objective?
> Why fight this war, why kill so many people, when it won't even achieve your primary objective?
Hamas still holds hostages and the bodies of murdered hostages.
Source: trust me bro
Meanwhile Russia that targets civilians in 97% of their air attacks killed 560 Ukrainian children in 2.5 years.
Now compare that to what Israel is doing in Gaza.
>The war is gaza has the LOWEST civilian death ratio of pretty much any war ever in an urban environment.
It's the only conflict in recent history, where a stateless people where crammed in a tiny land, not controlling their borders, having almost no meaningful autonomy, and being bombed and killed into servitude. The only reason you somehow win on per km death rate is because no other country is slaughtering a people shoved into such a tiny km of land.
But in terms of actual civilian killed in a conflict, in percentage of their population, woah, good job Israel, killing it!
So you're saying that the texts are photoshopped? If that's the case why're they going along with the investigation instead of going public? Public opinion would be on their side.
I'm not saying anything about these texts, I'm saying that there is a lot of past evidence of Zionist nutters doing that shit. They aren't 'going public' because institutions like this have bylaws and responsibilities under national legislation. They aren't private individuals who can do whatever they want, they are government-funded entities with *decades* (270 years for Columbia University) of legal and procedural baggage, so they are forced into the 'proper way' of doing things.
Judging an incident involving Jews a certain way because of what some otjer Jews did somewhere else is a bit weird imo. Despite that, I'm not going to say with 1000% that this isn't some weird propaganda psyop. But logically speaking, it's trivially simple to prove something was photoshopped. You just need to hand your phone over and let the experts check the data. And once the investigation's over, the rebound effect it'd have in the Jewish community if it was fake would be absolutely devastating. Why would they do something that's so easy to disprove?
Nah mate, digital fakery has gotten *incredibly* sophisticated in the past decade. Second, the Jewish community is divided between the Zionists, the people who just keep their heads down and the folks who *hate* the shit Israel is doing. The Zionists don't *care* if this is a lie or not, they care if it *works*, the second group are trying not to get hurt and the last already don't believe a thing the Zionists say. Contrary to media claims about 'antisemitic protests', you'll find the *core* of those protests is often a group of very pissed off Jewish people.
The vast majority of Jews are Zionists, as in they believe Israel should exist. 50% of the global Jewish population lives in Israel. The other half almost entirely lives in the US, with some still remaining in Europe.
I doubt the Jews in Israel want Israel destroyed, making them Zionists. And [80% of American Jews](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) care deeply about Israel's existence.
You can claim the Jewish community is divided about whether Israel should exist or not, but those against Israel are basically about the same percentage as Blacks for Trump, and I know how much people hated when others tried to tokenize them for their political beliefs.
Well, I'm not going to discuss the percentage of Zionist Jews in the US. But the argument that you do is very interesting since you're arguing that non Zionists shouldn't be considered at all because they're a minority. So, the way I see it you argue that minorities can be ignored in favor of the majority.
Ok, but then you're arguing that Jews as a group are politically irrelevant in the US and shouldn't be listened to because they really are around 2-3% of the entire American population.
Is this something you agree with? That the US shouldn't care about Jewish opinions regarding the conflict and only Christians are relevant since they're the vast majority of the people in America?
I'm not saying Jews who don't support Israel's existence shouldn't be considered. I am saying they should not be tokenized or used as some sort of argument that the Jewish community is evenly divided on this, when it is clearly not.
Who said it's evenly divided? You're the one who moves the argument saying that it's evenly divided, but the other person said it's divided. Which is true, isn't it? It's divided between Zionists and non Zionists.
Same as the US, it's divided between Christians and non Christians.
Think about this: if you follow your own argument, you're saying the US is a country for Christians and Jews are irrelevant really.
If in a group of 10 people, 9 support a thing, and 1 opposes it, I would not generally use the term "divided" within that context to describe the group, as divided generally implies a somewhat more equal representation. Once you get into the realm of 7 vs 3, then it would begin to make more sense as the term to use. And in terms of Jews who are against Israel's existence, based on the polling I've seen, I would say that number is less than 10% of the global Jewish population.
See, but this is the point. Jews in the US are less than 3%. Thus the US would have no business caring about Jews in Israel. It's a foreign country. At least not anymore than Armenia.
Think about it. Armenians are a diaspora people who suffered a Holocaust (in fact that's the original meaning of the Holocaust, the term was coined to describe the genocide to Armenians).
Why does the US care about Israel rather than Armenia, a Christian country that is much weaker and has recently suffered territory loses against Azerbaijan backed Turkey? It's a foreign country but at least they believe in Jesus unlike Israel.
There are numerous military and strategic reasons why the US is allied with Israel. I would suggest reading up on it. It has very little to do with the amount of Jews in the US.
I agree with that, it's refreshing that you don't pretend it's an act of love.
Thus, do you think the US should ditch Israel and throw it to the bus if the most beneficial strategy for America would be to back up their enemies anytime in the future?
I can't predict the future and I don't know what the US will do. I personally don't think the Jews can trust any external group to protect them, as history has shown time and time again, which is why I do not support ideas like Israel being demilitarized under the "promise" of its allies that they will defend it if it is attacked, etc. like some leftist friends have proposed as an idea.
I literally support Israel largely because I do not trust anyone but the Jews to protect the Jews.
Ah yeah, I'm a dual loyalty Jew, haven't you heard?
What do you mean morally correct in backing Iran? By what metric are we deciding if it is morally correct?
Well you're the one who jumped to realpolitik when you yourself said the only reason why the US backs Israel is self interest. My interpretation is that you think this is ok.
If you think it's not ok the US supports Israel for self interested reasons please tell me, it would please me greatly. Thus, why would it be different for Iran?
What are you even talking about at this point? You just seem to want to argue for the sake of arguing. I don't care about arguing about theoretical situations in which the US decides to align with Iran. It's not relevant and it's not a rhetorical exercise I have interest in wasting my time discussing with you.
You can't help yourself and say that the US could support Iran if they saw it served their interests better just like it does now for Israel can you?
You know it's true, but you can't say it loud because you're slaves to your ideology
Your argument doesn’t even make sense. If the US aligns with Iran, they align with Iran. They won’t, because that’s literally not at all a reasonable idea given the emergent new Axis in global politics, but even if they did, so what? How does this affect literally any of my points are beliefs?
I understand any of Israel’s allies could turn on them. This is why I support them having a strong military and not kowtowing to political groups interested in their demise.
"They won't, but I support Israel being independent in case they do"
It won't work well because the IDF is trash right now. The main weakness of Israel is that they've become so good at controlling the US that they became lazy and they couldn't hold their ground in an international conflict on their own. Yeah they have nukes (oh maybe you're one of those who say they don't). But that's not ideal, they'd end up in an even weaker position than Russia because using nukes is not realistic and unlike Russia Israel has no sizable land or resources to make an invasion impossible.
Not at all, I base my views on Israel solely on what is hosted in their own digital archives. The shit the founders of Israel said about their own beliefs and admit to doing? Zionism *by their description* is fascism, and fascists will justify anything.
What does Israel have to do with the texts these Columbia administrators sent?
If your immediate reaction to something anti-Semitic occurring in the West is "the Jews did this," you might want to sit down, because I have some bad news for you--you're probably an anti-Semite.
1) You certainly didn't read the texts.
2) You certainly didn't read what I said.
3) You certainly didn't read what the founders of Zionism said about their own movement. Also, there were already a ton of Jews living in the Levant, and the Zionists not only betrayed them repeatedly by using them as human shields and deliberately dragging backblast for Zionist terrorist attacks onto them, but were also explicitly racist towards them. Like, seriously, *go read the shit in Israel's archives they literally say it outright*. I beg you, please look up what the founders of Zionism said. They are *not* subtle, it is *not* about a 'homeland', it's about a fascist ethnostate larping as the mythical Kingdom of David. This is all available *from Israel*, from the historical documents of Israel's founders preserved in their own archives. I beg of you, don't speak on behalf of these people before reading what they believed and intended *in their own words*.
I have read the texts, and yes, I did read what you said.
You tried to blame Jews for "false flagging" these texts.
You're an anti-Semite, bro, just embrace it.
No I didn't. I said that I *don't know about the texts*, but that there is definitely a history of Zionists doing that shit, especially in my country. We've been having a *lot* of bullshit this past year, mostly because in Australia the main 'student groups' for Jewish kids got captured by the Zionist nutters, and it's either 'support Israel' or 'ostracised at uni'. I know some Jewish folks who are dealing with being shunned by other Jewish students because they won't give lockstep support to Israel. There was this whole thing in... I think 2022, where one of those groups tried to get universities to pledge to a description of 'antisemitism' that was literally created by right-wing Israeli politicans and defined things *said by leftwing Israelis* as antisemitic. There is a *history* here.
So in other words, the entire narrative you're trying to spread is that this is \*possibly\* a false flag by Jews.
Thanks for clarifying what I already said you were saying.
No, I'm saying that there is a history of faking shit by Zionists, so it's a valid concern to be thinking about. Also like, Israel *itself* has a history of false flags, like that time they murdered US sailors to try and trick the USA into a war with Egypt. And frankly it has nothing to *do* with Jewishness; Zionists are fascists and *this is what fascists do*. Fascists see the world as a zero-sum game, where coexistence is impossible and the only way to survive is brutal bloodshed and slaughter of all competitors. There is no 'good' for a fascist that does not involve 'they win'. It's the core 'problem' of letting fascists into polite society, that being that they reject morality and ethics and will do *anything* to win. That is the *core premise* of Zionism; that Jews can only 'be safe' if they butcher and slaughter anyone near them. That 'peace' is a *lie*.
Zionist false flags go right to the *beginning* of this whole shit show; fascist paramilitary groups (that eventually formed the IDF) committed terrorist attacks and pinned them on the Jewish groups who had been living in the Levant for centuries (Mizrahi and Sephardi) to the Palestinians against them, and then they went 'see, they hate you, we told you they hate you, join us and you'll be *safe*'. It's the same old scam done again and again throughout history.
Just make sure you're able to access the full texts properly translated from Hebrew.
There's quite a few circulating online which have been strategically edited to say the opposite of the original context.
Which is why I make sure to access the ones directly hosted on the archive's website. There are *official* translations available, and unless Hamas has secretly hacked Israel's historical archives for some reason, it's pretty blatant what they are saying. Stuff like 'this is a settler colonial project and we are imitating the British example' or 'our \[Sephardi/Mizrahi\] cousins need our help to become truly Jewish again'. Paraphrasing, but there's a lot of stuff that was written in English specifically to give to the British supporters of Zionism as propaganda.
You didn’t even read the full texts or even the summary above where an admin states irs a shame they don’t have the same resources for every identity group. This is more cherry picked bullshit that only galvanizes the core groups of Zionists and leaves a terrible taste of autocracy, fascism, and undue influence of a foreign state.
...I actually did, but thanks for the assumption. By the way, the previous sentence was me being sarcastic (since it doesn't seem like you can identify it seeing as how you thought the 'resources' comment was actually earnest)
Sounds like some bullshit “we are being prosecuted” to distract from what the horrible crimes they are committing on a daily basis towards Palestinians.
An awful lot of non-Jewish Zionists are people who either own property/stocks in Israeli companies or receive kickbacks from those who do. Like, a *lot* of Israel's 'economy' is being a middleman country for international finance and R&D. And *yes*, that does come close to stereotypes and I assure you, that is why the Israeli government pursued it. The Israeli political class is completely aware that large portions of Western countries recoil from anything close to those stereotypes (for good reason) and it's free 'cover' so why *wouldn't* they?
Maybe the claim of horrible crimes on the Arab ‘Palestinians’ are bullshit to distract from actual victims in the Middle East like the Kurds and Darfuris that were victims of genocide supported by the Arabs
Different Arab states have different ideologies, so let’s see the evidence
1. ‘Palestinians’ building a statue glorifying the Palestinianist Saddam Hussein who was response for the Anfal Campaign which sought to ethnically cleanse the Kurds of Southern Kurdistan.
Source: https://apnews.com/general-news-e78f814aa785466b903ad378e43eebed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anfal_campaign
2. The self-proclaimed ‘President’ of ‘Palestine’ Mahmoud Abbas has consistently supported Omar Al-Bashir and opposed the ICC’s legal process against Al-Bashir for his involvement as the former leader of Sudan in the genocide of the non-Arab Darfuris. ‘Palestine’ as part of the Arab League has opposed the ICC court decisions on Al-Bashir. The popular representative of ‘Palestinians’, Hamas, has also enjoyed friendly relations with Omar Al-Bashir.
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/06/15/sudans-bashir-is-the-palestinians-and-pretorias-favorite-genocidal-tyrant/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_al-Bashir
https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/after-fall-bashir-sudan-closes-door-support-hamas-2021-09-23/
Thank you for your honesty in showing how the supporters of ‘Palestinians’ is not based on supposed human rights concerns but based purely on supporting Arab supremacy in the Middle East
Twist my words however you like to fit your narrative. Israel is a criminal pariah that is recreating the holocaust on the natives of the land and there needs to be consequences. Modern day Nazis committing genocide.
Three questions:
1) Why do you hope for the destruction of Israel rather than regime change?
2) Should Israel magically collapse, what do you propose happen to the Israelis living in modern-day Israel, considering that their ancestors were massacred in and expelled from every country in the region, with the sanction of those countries’ governments
3) What are your thoughts on what Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen?
1. They don't belong there.
2. They can use their dual citizenship to gtfo to the states or wherever.
3.I don't care because Houthis can get fucked for sending their shiddy rockets towards the country.
1. Who decides what group belongs where? For example, ethnic Arabs “don’t belong” anywhere outside of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, and the interiors of Yemen, Oman, and the UAE. Egypt and Sudan used to have a majority of Copts and maybe a tiny minority of ethnic Arabs in Egypt who descended from people coming from the Peninsula. In Syria and Iraq there were ethnic Kurds and Assyrians. In the North African countries west of Egypt the entire population used to be Berbers.
2. Not all Israelis have dual citizenship. Where would you propose they go? Also, isn’t it messed up to do collective punishment on a population by forcing them to leave their generational homes due to the sins of their ancestors and current government?
3. So you don’t care about the Yemenis who are suffering because of the Houthis, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia at all? Why do you care about Palestinians then? Do you even actually care about them?
I just want to add that copts were never majority of Sudan. Copts is the word Greeks used for the people of Egypt not the people of Egypt and Sudan. On the other hand, Sudan literally means the land of the black people. You Probably don't know this but copts aren't black. Copts look like your average Egyptian. Also Egyptian arabs are arabized copts i.e. copt who adopted Islam and Arabic language.
Don't feel like arguing with zio but Arabs in Iraq, the Levant, Sudan, Egypt and the rest of north Africa are the indigenous people who just adopted the Arabic language. This is scientifically proven by genetic studies.
I guess using your logic, African Americans are white Europeans because their native language is English.
And Jews are the descendants of the tribes that were expelled from what is mostly now Israel. That’s literally the whole reasoning as to why Israel is where it is.
Also I wouldn’t quite say I’m a Zionist due to the connotation with supporting oppression of Palestinians. I support the right of Israel to exist and the rights of Israelis to not be expelled from the homes they have lived in for generations. I don’t believe in the collective punishment of a mostly innocent population
Not all Jews have levantine ancestry like recent convert Jews. Yemeni Jews are fully Arabian. Ethiopian Jews are Ethiopian etc etc.
Now Jews with levantine ancestry are not fully levantines. For example, Ashkenazi jews(two thirds of the global Jewish population) derive at least half of their DNA from Europe.
No sane person can claim that a land is still theirs after 2000 years. I don't imagine the people of the UK would just bow down if Americans including non European Americans showed up one day to claim their homeland and America was rediscovered by white people 600 years ago.
If you believe that people "not be expelled from the homes they have lived in for generations" then you should be for Palestinians' right of retrun and for the end of the Israeli occupation etc etc
I agree that the claim to the land is dumb, but the country has existed for decades now and any proposed change to that is fucked.
I’m pretty sure that Beta Jews and Yemenite Jews do actually have Levantine ancestry. Wikipedia says there was significant immigration from Roman Judea to what is now Yemen in 132 BC. The origin of Beta Israel is less clear.
> Now Jews with Levantine ancestry are not fully Levantine
Idk what you’re going for here. My mom is from Argentina. I’m not fully Argentine. Does this mean I’m not Argentine at all?
To your last point, I do believe that Palestinians should have a right to return (as should other expelled groups such as Pomeranian, Volga, and Silesian Germans). I also believe that there should be an autonomous or independent Palestinian land, and that the Israeli settlers in the West Bank should be expelled and punished (this might seem contradictory, but the way I see it it isn’t as they are bad people and thus deserve bad things. People who aren’t bad don’t)
It’s hard to espouse rational, measured beliefs about this situation without people assuming instantly you are secretly on one side of the extreme.
I agree with all of the things the comment above you wants for Palestinian people, but the fact is punishing all of the civilians now living in Israel becsuse of the huge mistake in 1948 is indicative of an emotional outburst as opposed to a moral solution.
The relations between the two need to be mended and Israel’s colonialism and brutality curbed, but I don’t see a way of making Israel not exist anymore that wouldn’t be hugely unfair people not even involved in the conflict, just living their lives.
Yemeni Jews def don't have levantine ancestry. This what genetic studies show.
There is even Israeli American geneticist and bioinformatician working aa an associate professor of bioinformatics at Lund University whose research indicate non levantine origin for Jews.
"To access the data basis used by Ostrer. Ostrer was willing to share his data provided that Elhaik submit a proposal showing that the project met several criteria, including that it be "non-defamatory nature toward the Jewish people", which Elhaik viewed as evidence of bias and which pediatrician Catherine D. DeAngelis called "peculiar".[20]"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eran_Elhaik
My point is the claim to the land is super dumb because if you and your ancestors have lived in region X for 2000 years and at least half of your DNA is from region X then you are not Y person. You only have ancestry from Y region. Also there are many millions around the world just like with ancestry from Y region. Why only you can claim ownership of region Y?
I guess the amount of Levantine DNA in Yemenite Jews, if there ever was any, is negligible at this point. Interesting.
Agreed on the last part, as I’ve said before.
Like i said, Israel must ends its occupation of the state Palestine and the Syrian Golan, allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland in Israel and give them equal rights and pay fair reparations to all its victims.
Sounds fun.
I will use my ethnic cleansing points to get rid of the Chileans in the Magallanes province and the Brits in the Falklands and South Georgia and replace them all with Argentines.
Argentina campeón del mundo!!!!🇦🇷🇦🇷 ((in having a shit economy, anyway))
>1) Why do you hope for the destruction of Israel rather than regime change?
Destruction of Israel and regime change is basically the same. If there is a regime change in Israel, and it is no longer an ethno state aparthied regime (meaning the regime is CHANGED), and it turns into a normal country that people living in the area all have equal rights, etc, then fine.
You seem to be projecting Arab desires to eradicate non-Arabs onto Israel, you seem to prefer to believe made-up genocide accusations than care about intentionally verified genocides of Darfuris or Kurds.
Why would Arabs be so afraid of Jews standing up for themselves, could it be that they know what they’ve committed on minorities once they’re in power that made them scared to be a minority? 🤔
How convenient that you managed to disregard the plight of Kurds and Darfuris every time they were brought up, and try to frame Israel as the supreme evil for not kowtowing to Arabs, you just want Arabs to dominate the entire Middle East and eradicate all non-Arabs but is too cowardly to admit it to the international world as it will jeopardize the propaganda efforts of ‘Palestine‘.
It is almost as if you know there is no reason to support ‘Palestine’ unless one is an Arab supremacist that believes non-Arabs like Jews, Kurds and Darfuris are to be eradicated.
It is just non-Arab minority resistance against Arabs, they managed to stand up for themselves and give the Arabs a run for their money. I guess you could call that karma and comeuppance for the Arabs lol.
Also good job on managing to ignore the Kurds and Darfuris once again lol, may you don’t have to ignore them once they establish sovereign non-Arab states so you can accuse them of genocide when they fight back against Arabs.
Every single Arab on the planet could be a huge dickwad that smells their own farts and only laughs at racist jokes and leaves shopping carts in the parking lot, but it still has nothing to do with Israeli genocide and their constant distraction tactics (see above)
sorry I didn’t know Arab lives worth more than non-Arab lives so everyone must prioritize the wellbeing of Arabs and to ensure they can maintain their supremacy
Every single Jew on the planet could be a huge dickwad that smells their own farts and only laughs at racist jokes and leaves shopping carts in the parking lot, but it still has nothing to do with Arab genocides and their constant distraction tactics (see above)
The entire “violent pro-Palestinian attack Jewish students because they are Jewish” serve this purpose. People totally disregard what students are advocating for instead they hate them because of their political positions(significant of them leftists)
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So the pro-Palestine protesters got ridiculed, beaten and arrested and Zionists are STILL playing the victim? Do they really think this behavior is cute or endearing to anyone?
Very antisemitic. These guys here are coping so hard with statements like “most Jews in America aren’t Zionist” (not true as at least 85% to 95% or Jews are Zionist or support the State of Israel existing) or “the evil Jewish money for the student life in college campuses!!” (Well, if you had the interest of improving your people’s lives, maybe invest money into your own building through the money of millionaires amongst your group)
The ignorance of Jewish history and trying to goysplaining to Jews what Judaism or being Jewish is, is incredible.
No thanks. I don’t swing that way, and also I honestly don’t care whether you really are Jewish or not.
I would like to study your brain if it really is the case that you read the article and weren’t even slightly off put by what was being said. Mind lending me it?
I figured you were from an IOF troll farm based on your "u/(underscored two-word phrase)_random number," username, but you've thrown me for a loop with this last bullshit.
Every time I open the app in the morning the Americans have waltzed through with this propaganda crap which they don’t even read.
If you could read you would be upset
Considering that their job is to make their students feel as safe and comfortable as possible but responded with vomiting emojis, insinuations of corruption, and complaints of “privilege”, to a seminar on how to better do that for a group of students which is being targeted based on ethnicity due to a real or imagined connection to a country half a world away, I’d say these people can lose their jobs and go fuck themselves.
The same should happen to all of their supporters, including the majority of people in this comment section
The source of the texts is the Washington Free Beacon, a right wing tabloid. However based on Columbia’s response the material obtained was authentic.
Every news article related to this issue is reporting on the WFB source and Columbia’s public and verifiable response. As of yet there is no report of any fabricated texts nor any missing context claims, but the sketchiness of the primary source needs to be taken into account
I mean many Jewish student org on campus frequently invite IOF soldiers involved in fighting in Gaza and occupation of West Bank to campus for school events.
Imagine if Russian club or Chinese student association do this, they’d immediately be criticized for “spying”
Israel has universal conscription which means all Israeli citizens have military experience.
There's only about 14 million Jewish people in the world, mostly in the US and Israel, and its extremely common for someone living in the US to have family in Israel, or the other way around.
Visiting family isn't weird or strange.
Not family visit but actual invitation of them as speakers at school events after fighting in Gaza and West Bank.
The US is purportedly doing background check on military service of Israelis who apply for green card
Man this comments section is crazy.
Seems the majority here believe it's acceptable to harass and intimidate random Jews because of what Israel is doing.
Let me ask you morally bankrupt swamp scum this - is it okay to harass random Russians because of what Putin is doing?
I won't hold my breath for a sensible answer.
Fucking hypocrites.
OP is a Zionist, JPost is literally just Zionist propaganda so take anything they report with a grain of salt. We don’t allow other propaganda sites we shouldn’t utilize JPost and the like as a sourc e
I mean Columbia university was leaked to plan mandating student orientation about “anti-Zionism = anti-semitism” I’m sure it’s all anti-Semitic to say there is no privilege
Doesn’t sound like antisemitism to me. They’re just talking about privilege of pro-Israel students, who most of the time happened to be Jewish. They even talk about how their students are not dangerous and how to protests includes non-Israel Jews, which is a good point, how can it be antisemitic if Jews are openly joining the protests? Lastly, it’s Jerusalem Post, which is not to say this is wrong but they love playing the narrative and lean towards sympathy for Israel. But thanks for the read.
#####	
######	
####	
> # [Jewish 'privilege' and '$$$': Texts from Columbia University admins. leaked](https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f_auto,fl_lossy/c_fill,g_faces:center,h_407,w_690/607604)
>
>
>
> ## The exchanges show the university officials downplaying students’ concerns about antisemitism and bashing the head of the school’s Hillel.
>
> By LUKE TRESS/JTA JULY 3, 2024 07:35 [ Pro-Palestinian student protesters who had been arrested for occupying and barricading a building at Columbia University react following a hearing, where criminal charges against them had been dropped, at the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse in New York City, U.S., June 20, 2024. (photo credit: REUTERS/BRENDAN MCDERMID)](https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/q_auto/c_fill,g_faces:center,h_537,w_822/607604 " Pro-Palestinian student protesters who had been arrested for occupying and barricading a building at Columbia University react following a hearing, where criminal charges against them had been dropped, at the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse in New York City, U.S., June 20, 2024.") Pro-Palestinian student protesters who had been arrested for occupying and barricading a building at Columbia University react following a hearing, where criminal charges against them had been dropped, at the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse in New York City, U.S., June 20, 2024. (photo credit: REUTERS/BRENDAN MCDERMID) [Columbia University](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-801107) administrators said Jewish students occupied a “place of privilege,” called a Hillel official a “problem” and wrote “Amazing what $$$$ can do,” during a panel on Jewish campus life in May, newly released text messages showed.
>
> Columbia had already suspended three of the four administrators involved after photos of some of the texts were first published last month. Now, the House Committee on Education and the Workforce, which is [investigating antisemitism](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-808640) at Columbia and other campuses, has obtained and released the full text message exchanges.
>
> While elements of the text messages have been previously reported, the full exchanges show the university officials downplaying students’ concerns about antisemitism, bashing the head of [the school’s Hillel](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-805327) and suggesting that Jewish students received attention because of money.
>
> The conversations were conducted while the administrators were attending a May 31 panel discussion titled “Jewish Life on Campus: Past, Present, and Future.”
>
> ### **'A place of privilege'**
>
> “Comes from such a place of privilege,” wrote Susan Chang-Kim, the university’s vice dean and chief administrative officer. “Hard to hear the woe is me, we need to huddle at the Kraft Center,” Columbia’s Jewish student center, where Hillel is housed. Pro-Palestinian student protesters who had been arrested for occupying and barricading a building at Columbia University exit following a hearing, where criminal charges against them had been dropped, at the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse in New York City, U.S., June 20, 2024. (credit: REUTERS/BRENDAN MCDERMID)
>
> “Yup. Blind to the idea that non-Israel supporting Jews have no space to come together,” responded Cristen Kromm, a dean of undergraduate student life.
>
> “If only every identity community had these resources and support,” Kromm added several minutes later.
>
> The new texts also shed light on a previously reported exchange between Kromm and Chang-Kim, which the House committee said was about an October op-ed by Hillel Rabbi Yonah Hain on campus antisemitism, titled “Sounding the alarm.”
>
> “And we thought Yonah sounded the alarm,” Kromm wrote near the end of the exchange, followed by two vomit emojis.
>
> “I’m going to throw up,” Chang-Kim responded.
>
> “Amazing what $$$$ can do,” Kromm said at one point, apparently when Brian Cohen, the executive director of Columbia’s Hillel, was speaking about students receiving attention in the media and in Washington, D.C.
>
> At another point while Cohen was speaking, Chang-Kim wrote, “He is such a problem!”
>
> “Painting our students as dangerous,” she added.
>
> “He knows exactly what he’s doing and has to take full advantage of this moment. Huge fundraising potential,” said Matthew Patashnick, an associate vice dean for student and family support, in one of the messages reported last month.
>
> At other points in the exchange, which lasted for close to two hours, Chang-Kim wrote “Smoke and mirrors,” and “Trying to be open minded to understand but the doors are closing.”
>
> In another text shared with the New York Jewish Week last month, Chang-Kim texted Josef Sorett, the university’s dean, while Cohen was speaking. “He is our hero,” Chang-Kim said, in an apparently sarcastic message. Nine minutes later, Sorett wrote, “Lmao,” an acronym for “laughing my ass off.” It was unclear whether his text was a delayed response to Chang-Kim or whether he was reacting to something else. He did not respond to a request for comment.
>
> In addition to Cohen, the panelists were former law school Dean David Schizer, who co-chairs the university’s antisemitism task force; Rebecca Massel, a student journalist for the Columbia Spectator, the campus newspaper; and Ian Rottenberg, the director of the school’s Center for Religious Life.
>
> An audience member sitting behind one of the deans took photos of the administrators’ texts and first shared them last month with the Washington Free Beacon, a conservative news outlet that has reported aggressively about the incident and its fallout.
>
> The university suspended Chang-Kim, Kromm and Patashnick last month after the texts came to light.
>
> The university said on Tuesday that Sorett would remain in his position as the dean of the college, but would be recused from all matters relating to the investigation into the texts. Sorett was cooperating with the investigation, and had told his team that the other three administrators had been placed on leave pending the probe, a Columbia official told the New York Jewish Week.
>
> “We are committed to combatting antisemitism and taking sustained, concrete action to ensure Columbia is a campus where Jewish students and everyone in our community feels safe, valued, and able to thrive,” the official said. “The Dean reiterated his commitment to learning from this situation and other incidents over the last year to build a community of respect and healthy dialogue.”
>
> The House committee that released the transcript of the texts has gained global attention in recent months for holding explosive hearings on campus antisemitism with the leaders of several elite universities. It has vowed to keep pressing the issue.
>
> “Jewish students deserve better than to have harassment and threats against them dismissed as ‘privilege,’ and Jewish faculty members deserve better than to be mocked by their colleagues,” said the committee chairwoman, Virginia Foxx, in a Tuesday statement. “These text messages once again confirm the need for serious accountability across Columbia’s campus.”
>
> The suspensions come as Columbia continues to grapple with months of antisemitism allegations on campus following Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel and the ensuing war in Gaza.
>
> The school gained worldwide attention in April when pro-Palestinian students set up an encampment that sparked a nationwide movement and, critics said, created a hostile and threatening environment for Jewish students. More than 100 students were arrested at the encampment and subsequently during activists’ takeover of a campus building. Soon afterward, the school canceled its main commencement ceremony.
>
> The campus is quieter now that classes have ended, but the school’s antisemitism task force, set up in the weeks after Oct. 7, is due to release a report about incidents in which Jewish students were targeted.
>
> Student protesters, meanwhile, have vowed to keep demonstrating even as classes have let out. Student groups around the city last month, including at Columbia, declared a “Summer of Resistance,” urging followers to take “non-stop action” in the coming months.
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We've found **1 sources** (so far) that are covering this story including:
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