And nearly everyone I know that bought one ditched it when the lease was up, or just outright sold it if financed, and either went mild hybrid, or back to gas or diesel, and this is in bend over for eco nutters California. Common complaint, pain to charge, range anxiety, and just downright inferior ownership experience. Mostly the ev’s I see here are those ugly Tesla suvs that don’t down how to drive.
The EV9 in question is 55k minimum, the ioniq5/6 are both 40-50k. Not ultra expensive but not particularly cheap, and more than comparable to the american tesla or european id.4. Nothing wrong with making average cars for an average price either.
In fact I think the ioniq 5 is more average, traditional buttons, two screens with one being your instrument cluster, less agressive regen, option to use a traditional key.
"aging lineup" is definitely a big part of it, especially when it comes to design. The Model S was designed in the late '00s, and the other models followed its design language. 14 years later that design language is unchanged. Meanwhile, the Kias and Hyundais are coming out with a very new-looking design. One thing that Musk neglected with Tesla was to build in the concept of real model redesign and advancement, something the rest of the automotive industry has been doing for a hundred years.
The best part is, the model S is the best looking car in their lineup, by a long shot.
The length x width x height proportions are spot on. The other ones all look kinda goony.
Also, if someone already owns a Tesla, why would they buy a new one? A 2024 model looks pretty much the same and and has the same features as one from 2017.
Heck, if you really want to get a Tesla, why not just buy a used one? Plenty of them for sale today at a pretty steep discount.
Yes. They had first to market advantage, overall tech/battery package better than everyone, and a modern "minimalist" interior (personally, i hate it solely for that big screen and lack of buttons).
The legacy car makers have woken up in last few years and surpassed Tesla.
Nah, they're pretty different. I got to ride in one when I visited Australia (they landed there first, for whatever reason) as my friend bought one and it was MUCH quieter inside. He borrowed an older Model 3 Performance from work before we picked his new car up and it definitely drove differently. Unfortunately, like all new Teslas, they're getting rid of the turn signal stalk, so they're now buttons on the steering wheel.
lol that’s obviously not true. They may claim that 50% of parts or whatever are true but even that is likely exaggerated and there’s a slightly improved version of a part.
If nothing carried over then it would be a completely new model and not look as similar. I’m pretty sure that for example the batteries and drive train didn’t change at all in the refresh except for the performance model.
I don't understand why you're arguing this. The only carryover parts are the doors and rear quarter-panel. It really doesn't drive at all the same, and much of the car obviously looks different.
[Source](https://www.motortrend.com/features/new-tesla-model-3-vs-old-tesla-model-3-side-by-side/)
Sorry, I forgot people become irate whenever any discussion of Tesla is brought up 🙄
I don't have any Tesla stock, would never own one, and don't care what Elon's got going on. The new car doesn't share many parts with the old one, and is much quieter. It's also arguably worse to drive day-to-day unless you hate the convenience of turn signal stalks and a shifter.
It's hilarious, because I think most people would argue the new 2025 Camry is a new car and actually shares nearly exactly the same carryover parts as the Tesla from the outgoing 2024 Camry.
I’m not sure what the surpassed is in this case. In EV growth? Sure, but they are still behind in total volume by a good margin.
Total sales? they were always ahead of tesla and continue to be ahead.
I'd wager it has more to do with the fact the interiors are shit and only attract minimalist types. Everyone else goes to non-minimalized EVs, even if they're worse.
I test drove a Model 3 and the cabin is just so strange and not car-like. It's like a super techy golf cart. I just didn't like being in it.
If the base model was like $28k it would be really tempting as an appliance. It's a great size and shape and capacity for a city vehicle. But for $35-55k I'd want something that evokes more emotion than my washer/dryer stack.
I think something notable is time to get one fixed or serviced. Tesla notoriously has super backed up service departments causing months wait time, especially for vehicles with major issues. At least if I buy a Hyundai, Kia, GM, Toyota, etc, I know they have the dealer support and supplier network to get the vehicle turned quicker
This is a big reason I won't consider Tesla. Touch sensitive everything is unsafe to use while driving--even 'capacitive buttons' are terrible. I can't set my finger on a button, without pressing it.
No tactile verification of use. Removing the turn signal stalks was another change I can't understand. It's a common UI used by everyone on the planet for near 100 years. They didn't need improvement.
I mean his vision of an EV certainly does impact a buyer’s choice. Personally I think EV’s to be a good commuter but even then find Tesla’s “minimalism” to be an excuse amongst the set of traditional interiors in competitors. I’d like to wager I’m not alone on that one.
I mean that's just not true but ok.
After Elon Musk's shift towards right-wing politics, Tesla experienced a [significant decline in interest](https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/elon-musk-turned-democrats-off-tesla-when-he-needed-them-most-176023af) from Democratic buyers. The proportion of Democrats purchasing Tesla vehicles fell by more than 60% according to a survey conducted by Strategic Vision.
While Hyundai makes interesting cars, they have so many major flaws that I wouldn’t consider buying one soon. Catastrophic engine failures, engine fires, etc…. It sucks because I really like the Ioniq 5 N too
At least Kia Hyundai make their cars a little more dramatic than just wedges, jelly beans and toaster. The ionic 5 N is something with some flair to it.
> The EV9 in question is 55k minimum, the ioniq5/6 are both 40-50k.
That you have been able to lease for $4-500 and $2-300/mo, respectively, quite easily for the past 6 months. These prices, especially for the Ioniqs, is definitely giving people the incentive to dip their toes into the EV world for 18 months.
The leases are cheaper than ICE cars, so if you plan to lease a comparable vehicle and can charge at home(or are close to an electrify America where you get free DC fast charging), you might as well get one.
The KIAs and Hyundais are selling because the manufacturer is offering the tax credit on their leases. So they lease really well right now.
I don't know how well they'd do without the large discounts being offered.
Can we stop acting like Tesla delivering ~445k vehicles this quarter is a sales slump? No one is even close. Hell, they best even BYD in pure EV sales.
All of their competitors are talking in percentages because when you start from nothing, 40% growth sounds great. But the actual vol numbers are sad.
It is a sales slump relative to what they used to deliver.
I mentioned in another comment that they are still outpacing everyone in sales volume and why they are still well ahead of others in this space
but it is still a slump
Yeah, I think the interest rate environment has more to do it than the Reddit obsession with Musk. When comparing it apples to apples, they are doing great, but interest rates are going to affect all as many doing want a high rate on a product that depreciates.
Yes, and the comment above mentioned sales are down for the “ultra expensive and average”
Whereas these hyundai/kia products are extremely average, not a bad thing at all, but not what lends to their sales increase
Though to their point I forgot leases count as sales and apparently these lease for significantly cheaper
I still want to see an EV that's just a normal-ass car with a different drivetrain for cheap, or as a sports car, kinda like how motorcycles have done it.
But how much money are they making? I leased an EV6 GT basically because the price was too good to pass up. They are leasing these at very steep discounts compared to most others.
The Kias and Hyundais also look fantastic, most of the other brands seem to be making bloated looking EVs of their traditional models. IMO the Korean brands are killing the design language since the 2020s started.
I like the IONIQ 5 aesthetically, but I feel like I would love it if it was smaller. Unfortunately the IONIQ 6 kinda looks horrible to me, even if I do appreciate them making a car more along the lines of what I'd want.
I just got an I5. I wouldn’t have got it if it was smaller. There isn’t much storage space in back, but there is a lot of space for the rear passengers. The longer wheel base gives it a very nice ride while still maintaining great handling.
the ioniq 6 was obviously their attempt at greater range through lower drag while the 5 was more about a useful package. You do get almost 60 more miles of range with the 6's longest range version vs. the 5's longest range version but the package is not so great on the 6. I think more people care about the usability of the vehicle than a little extra range.
Tesla hasn’t released a mass market car since January 2020 (model Y). Of course their sales are falling. The car market moves very quickly and very few people want a model that is 5 years old.
It’s shocking that Tesla is seemingly not even trying to maintain their lead. They are just cutting costs, trying to stem their decline, and announcing far fetched vaporware to pump their stock (AI robot slaves, robotaxis yet again)
> The car market moves very quickly and very few people want a model that is 5 years old.
So I guess the cutoff is 4 years then? Seeing as the Y was the best selling car in the world.
The company Tuesday said it delivered about 444,000 vehicles to customers in the second quarter, down about 5 percent year-over-year but a 15 percent increase from the first quarter — and more than forecast by Wall Street analysts, who generally expected less than 440,000. Tesla shares rallied more than 10 percent on the news.
Tesla has Rebounded
A slump would mean sales are falling. EV sales have basically never stopped increasing YoY, but the rate at which they have increased has reduced over time. That trend of less rapidly increasing sales will continue reach the point of saturation.
Different media outlets simply report which ever parts of the statement above most closely fits with their agenda.
Precisely. It’s so exhausting reading the constant back and forth spin as a person who is both a car enthusiast and EV supporter.
Guys, if we replaced every boring SUV, land yacht, and kid hauler with an EV we could focus ICE to serve the cars that are actually fun to drive.
Leases are also counted as “sales”. They are struggling to actually sell the cars due to changes in government incentives. Instead, they are aggressively leasing them out and probably losing money.
The leasing companies get the tax credits and are passing the savings on. It’s a loophole that allows cars that wouldn’t normally qualify to get the credit. $7,500 over a 24 or 36 month term on a lease goes a long way.
Anecdotally I’ve been seeing a bunch more Kia and Hyundai EVs pop up on the road just as often as Teslas these days. Wondering if they are gaining market share.
With some discounts and lease deals they are almost giving them away. You can get a Kia EV6 lease for immensely cheap and that’s with the advertised deal on the Kia website, go to some more rural dealers and you can get 7-10% off msrp making the lease $120-$140 a month.
Also, isn't Kia doing some good work with recharge speed research? I know at the last LA auto show they were showing off their latest tech and bragging about it. Of course, they were the ones talking about it so PR was the big motivator, but I have seen a lot more of them here in Los Angeles as well and just assumed that was probably part of hte reason, plus the price.
I thought the EV9 was a flop cus I never saw it anywhere, but this week I’ve seen so many pop up. I’m starting to believe.
Lotta Cybertrucks appearing too now. Seen 3 within 2 days.
I saw my first EV9 in person just this week, at the Atlanta Airport.
Also my fist of the Ultium Chevy crossovers (Blazer EV I think? Or is it the Equinox EV? Whichever one is already out)
Yea, I've been seeing a ton of them around, particularly the Hyundai ones. I think they are starting to catch on a bit, especially with people starting to take a harder look at Tesla's even outside the hatred of Musk.
It was the rate of growth of EV sales that drastically "slumped." It wasn't a reduction in absolute sales volume. Hyundai selling more EVs than ever before is not contradictory to what was reported.
I have nothing against EVs. I'm just more bothered how misreported or misrepresented what happened has become.
Yeah, this whole thing is just using bad math to write negative and misleading articles.
For anyone wondering, here is a simple explanation. If you sell 100 items in year one, then 200 items in year 2, then 350 items in year 3, you have the following scenario. Your sales are growing, but your growth rate went from +100% to +75%. So your growth rate has fallen. This is what is happening with the EV market. Sales are up year over year and for every quarter when compared to the previous year's same quarter. But obviously they weren't going to double their sale every year because after a few decades that would be more cars than there are grains of sand on earth. It's easy for 1% to double to 2%. It's much harder for 7% to double to 14%.
> This is what is happening with the EV market. Sales are up year over year and for every quarter when compared to the previous year's same quarter.
The problem with this theory is that we haven't had a full 12 months of "slow down" yet.
It's more fundamental than "growth % slowdown but unit growth increase" - we're not even *seeing* the slowdown in YoY results at this point. It's such a weird talking point because it (intentionally, I suspect) misunderstands short term signals and tries to dispel them with longer 12 month historic trends (where, logically, the short term trend isn't going to be reflected until it's present for 12 months).
It's like a rollercoaster going over a hill - the first carriage stops climbing, and the people in it say "we're flattening out!" - but people in the 12th carriage at the back carriage say "what are you talking about? We're still going up! That's FUD!" Then the second carriage flattens and says "hmmm yeah, we're flattening, but not falling", the first carriage says "no, we're falling now" and the last carriage still says "That's a Big Oil talking point! we're still going up!"
and so on and so forth until eventually the 12th carriage gets above the first carriage and says "well sure, we're dropping - but only because everyone kept spreading FUD!!"
Basically, YoY is useful, but if you're talking about the current trend within a year, it's valid to call it out and acknowledge it, and try and take action - which is precisely what every manufacturer has done, pulling any lever they can to try and minimise the fall - slashing prices by 10s of thousands across the board, re-committing to hybrids, pushing back EVs (or, if you nailed your strategy....continue making massive amounts of hybrids the market is crying out for) - with the hope that this all lasts less than 12 months.
As it stands, we're not seeing a long term "end" for EVs, and acknowledging a slowdown and necessary strategy shift isn't "saying bad things" about EVs - they're going to take over the market - but characterising this as "normal" requires an acknowledgement that strategies prioritising a slower EV ramp were the correct path to take. Which is a point that this sub is *extremely* reluctant to admit, even as reality chisels out that fact in the history books, month by month.
>The problem with this theory is that we haven't had a full 12 months of "slow down" yet.
What I said isn't a theory, it's a fact. And it would take some pretty creative math to somehow use quarters that are doing better than last year to all add together to predict a year that is worse.
>Basically, YoY is useful, but if you're talking about the current trend within a year, it's valid to call it out and acknowledge it, and try and take action - which is precisely what every manufacturer has done, pulling any lever they can to try and minimise the fall - slashing prices by 10s of thousands across the board, re-committing to hybrids, pushing back EVs (or, if you nailed your strategy....continue making massive amounts of hybrids the market is crying out for) - with the hope that this all lasts less than 12 months.
I think this whole part is missing a major factor. Manufacturers were pushing extremely hard because countries and states around the world were pushing for super aggressive timelines. Once regulators pulled back, auto manufacturers did as well. The most important factor in their strategy for vehicle production is to make products that allow them to stay in business.
>As it stands, we're not seeing a long term "end" for EVs, and acknowledging a **slowdown** and necessary strategy shift isn't "saying bad things" about EVs
I feel like we aren't working from the same set of facts. There isn't a "slowdown" if they are selling more than before. EV sales are continuing to go up. Some manufacturers may have had large goes than they didn't meet or dialed back, but as a whole, the category is moving more vehicles than it was before.
>but characterising this as "normal" requires an acknowledgement that strategies prioritising a slower EV ramp were the correct path to take.
The strategy is driven by regulation. The correct path is making vehicles in a way that the government allows them to sell those vehicles. When regulations change, strategy changes. This sub is weird about links, but you can search for EV regulation and look for articles around Feb 20, 2023 for the adjustments to EV regulations in the US that lead to the changes in goals for manufacturers for the US market.
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Whose expectations though? Many governments talked up aggressive legislation to force EVs into the mainstream. OEMs met that worth public declarations about aggressively shifting brands to fully electric fleets. Investors threw crazy amounts of money at EV company stock. Even consumers hear their chests about the death of ICE.
It seems like the expectations were the industry, from every angle. The big failure came in the reality check of having EVs. Charging infrastructure didn't progress like some hoped or thought, and there were likely some who just didn't think take anxiety would come for them when they bought in.
Exactly. Sales increases being lower than expected are still sales increases.
It was a problem with bad projections. Anyone with half a brain knew that the rate of growth was not going to stay the same as it was during the early adopter phase. Now we're in the slow middle part of the S curve as the technology develops enough to be seamless transition for the majority of people.
Makes sense if you make great EVs. Only ones with decent pricing, amazing packaging for space, tech and comfort, and the fast 800V architecture. Just like Tesla, making good EVs will lead to good sales.
Personally, I think Ioniq 5 and EV9 are unbeatable in the compact and mid-size market. Maybe a bit pricier than Tesla, but they have the design mentality of an automaker rather than a tech company.
It's a slump for European and American made EVs, you know, the expensive ones. Cheaper Korean EVs will obviously do well but the Chinese are already snapping at their heels.
> Cheaper Korean EVs
I wouldn't call them cheaper. That being said, Hyundai/Kia have been offering extremely attractive deals on these EVs, which makes them affordable to buy/lease.
Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam Hyphen Scott talked about this in the latest Carmudgeon show. The average new car on sale is $50k+ and they are 50yrs old. We need cars in the $20k range!
Legacy automakers are just trying to push the government to bail them out of failing to truly pursue EVs. That’s the narrative they’re trying to spin. Look what they did with tariffs in Chinese EVs
I have an ioniq5 and now have an EV9 on order.
It's not just enough to make an EV to get sales, you actually have to make a good car. It also helps if the CEO of the company isn't a fucking lunatic.
> The EV6 is Kia's electric champion, selling 10,941 units for the year so far. Overall, the EV6 is up 31.3 percent, and the EV9 isn't far behind. We don't have a percentage for the SUV because it wasn't on sale last year, but 9,671 have sold through the first half of 2024. As for the Niro, Kia doesn't break out electric sales from the hybrid model, but basic math tells us 8,780 Niro EVs should be the number.
> Meanwhile at Hyundai, the Ioniq 5 is having a banner year. June was a record-setting month for the in-demand hatchback, clocking 3,755 sales. Overall, the car is up 37 percent versus last year with 18,728 total sales—nearly beating the EV9 and EV6 combined. The Ioniq 6 is also up year-over-year, with 6,912 sales.
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