Am I making a mistake trying to move to the Netherlands?

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jorick92@reddit

You will regret it. Being a tourist is all fun and stuff but actually living here is very different. I promise you if you don't speak the language you will have a hard time adapting.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

I promise you if you don't speak the language you will have a hard time adapting

This is solid advice. To the bureaucracy, that’s also true, but you can end up on top of a lot this if you make sure to do everything digitally and get a DigiD and a bankaccount that’s accepted everywhere in order.

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Mediocre_Parfait_453@reddit (OP)

but you can end up on top of a lot this if you make sure to do everything digitally

The bureaucracy can't be as bad as Germany's if you can do things digitally.

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ItzDivinity@reddit

As someone that is from the Netherlands. The biggest issue i would say with living here is that everything has to be done by appointments. Alot of important documents can be done online which is amazing. But sometimes you have to do that in person and that is a bit more challenging just because some instances have quite a long waiting time. But with DigiD and MijnOverheid most of the documents can be done online 24/7 so its really convient.

I dont know how it is in the USA, but all these companies are open during work hours only 09:00-17:00 during the week, weekends they closed so if you do have to make a phone call to them be prepared to do it during your work and hope not to be the 5th in line 😂 cause that can easily take 30 minutes of your time with just waiting. My record stands around 1 hour.

But overall i would say the bureaucracy is good and not to bad.

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daniel870771@reddit

To obtain the DigiD, is it necessary to present COVID vaccination status?

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DrMcFacekick@reddit

I dont know how it is in the USA

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VoyagerVII@reddit

I've been there twice now and am going back this summer. We're aiming to move there in about a year.

The Netherlands is what it is. Unapologetically. If you like what they are already, you're going to love it there, and if you don't, you won't, because they will not change for you.

I can deal with that kind of place! I grew up in New York City, which is very much another "Take us or leave us as we are" sort of location. I always loved New York, but I understand my friends who don't.

I understand the Redditors who don't like the Netherlands, too, but it doesn't stop me from loving it. If you've been spending time there and you love it, you probably won't stop loving it after you live there. Oh, it'll stop feeling like being on vacation, sure; but that would happen when you settled down in anywhere else, too, including wherever you're coming from. As long as you know to expect that and don't judge it against what it felt like when you were a tourist there, you'll be fine.

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a_library_socialist@reddit

NYC comes from the Dutch, and it does show.

The only annoying thing was how many Dutch people think Americans are apparently very, very stupid, as they'd inform me that New York used to be New Amsterdam like I didn't know.

Oh, and they're convinced they traded NYC away willingly, which is pretty funny.

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ReadNLearn2023@reddit

As a Dutch person living in the USA, I agree the majority of Americans are ignorant about world events and yes…generally stupid

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a_library_socialist@reddit

heh that's what I would tell the Dutch when they were being condescending - most don't even realize that they're getting the SMART half of Americans, the ones with passports. The real dum dums stay home in the greatest country on earth (as long as you don't visit any others).

That said, the Dutch tend to be woefully unaware of their own blind spots as well. Though I'm coming around to their feelings about Belgians as I deal more with them . . . .

I live in Scheveningen and every day feels like a vacation to me, to be honest.

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Odd_Kel@reddit

I moved to The Hague from abroad. Left for 2 years but came back cause I just love it here.

I spent some of my PhD in Norway, and absolutely HATED it. I don't get the attraction of Scandinavia at all - bad weather, high taxes and something about the mindset that seemed very set in their way - which just isn't my way.

But that's the best thing about choosing a country. We choose the country that fits us. It's like the ultimate form of democracy - because only our vote counts.

This is what I needed to hear

This is what you wanted to hear.

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thehecticepileptic@reddit

You’re moving to Eindhoven? I grew up there. I gotta say, the city has improved quite a bit since I lived there (until like 10 years ago). Back in the day I would have never recommended it, as it was quite a bleak and ugly city, but changes have been made and it feels nicer there now.

I’m currently living in Paris and while it’s cool and all, the Netherlands for the most part has its shit together and it’s nice to live in a place where everything works, is on time, and where there aren’t too many crazy people. I can’t say these things about Paris anyway.

If you already know some people there then it’s definitely gonna be easier to integrate. All countries have there own specific “volksgeest” (spirit of the people?), and the Dutch one can be peculiar sometimes (directness, sometimes a bit small minded). This is what can turn people off, but if you have Dutch family as you say (?) then maybe you’re already somewhat familiar with it. If I were you I would try to pick up some local colloquialisms or words specific to the region. People tend to love it if you bust out some random funny expression or whatever, makes for easy icebreakers.

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brass427427@reddit

The only way you will know is to find out. We tried the same with Switzerland in 1983. Never left.

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Rorymaui@reddit

I was on the fence about moving to the Netherlands. A year later, your comment still holds merit.

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GlitteringPear9761@reddit

there is reason NL is every year one of the happiest countries

The Netherlands has a very high standard of living, the quality of government services is pretty decent, the Dutch have a knack for bureaucracy but it’s nothing compared to Germany, Dutch people are direct but friendly (though we don’t believe in fake BBQ invites - if we ask you to come for dinner/bbq/drinks, we genuinely mean that we want you to come, unlike some other cultures and countries) and cycle infrastructure is second to none, especially in larger places like Amsterdam.

These-Psychology-959@reddit

I'm considering that I will spend about 1-1.1k (with utilities) euors per month on stuio after graduation in North Brabant. How do you think whether it is enough or too small for studio close to Eindhoven?

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Trablou@reddit

I don’t live there so bit hard to tell. Plus difficult to know what the rental market will do in the coming years. It sounds on the low side to me but again wouldn’t know for sure.

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Prestigious_Bus_9721@reddit

I miss Netherlands

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Minute_River8918@reddit

I just spent a year working as a teacher at an International School in the Netherlands. I left two weeks ago and I regret ever going. I'm from Australia and I arrived with plenty of savings and leave with nothing because the cost of living and taxes are so extremely high. I wasn't able to find a house for 7 months, and anywhere I did find I wasn't able to register because of ridiculous rules on how many people can live at an address(which basically means I didn't exist in the eyes of the Dutch government). I spent every free minute (not at work) of the first 8 months jumping through hoops for the Dutch government. The Dutch Gov are involved in every single aspect of your life.

Now at tax time I'm discovering further significant financial disadvantages because I wasn't registered at a Dutch address for the 7 months it took me to find somewhere (despite desperately searching, including paying for rental search services).

Unless you are moving for an high paying job- 80,000+ euros a year, that's going to give you the 30% tax benefit ruling and give a high level of assistance in moving there, I would highly recommend you reconsider.

I also only saw the sun for about 6 days in 10 months. Many of my friends who also lived there couldn't wait to leave.

"once you get fluent in Dutch.." trust me, easier said than done.

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GerritDeSenieleEend@reddit

Of course no language is easy but Dutch is regarded as one of the easiest languages to learn for anglophones

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cali86@reddit

Well I take Dutch classes with people that speak multiple languages and we are all struggling with it. There are a lot of words that are the same in English but that's as far as the similarities go, the sentence structure is completely different and very, very difficult to grasp.

Ich esse, weil ich hungrig bin - ik eet, omdat ik honger heb

Ich esse, denn ich bin hungrig - ik eet, want ik heb honger

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Mediocre_Parfait_453@reddit (OP)

Word order, I'll often mistakenly use German word order rather than Dutch.

There's also just so much exceptions to rules.

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RubyCC@reddit

German is usually ranked one level more difficult than Dutch. Look for example here.

As a native German speaker I find it much easier to learn Dutch as most rules are the same as in German or don‘t exist at all.

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Mediocre_Parfait_453@reddit (OP)

I've found that I'm picking it up a lot faster than German, the prepositions are so much easier and closer to English.

The pronunciation is what's really killing me in Dutch since it's so much harder for me than German

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RubyCC@reddit

The learning difficulty is always subjective. So no wonder it‘s easier for you to learn a language that is closer to English.

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boluserectus@reddit

It's not so much objective, it should be split into 4 categories.

Pronounciation
Grammar
Writing/reading
Means to practice with natives.

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Cazabath@reddit

Point 1 and 4 are the difficult ones for Dutch. The harsh g sound and ui sound that are not in English are difficult for non native speakers. Also most Dutch are proficient to fluent in English and would immediately switch to English when they hear you struggle with Dutch which makes practising the language with natives difficult.

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riseabovepoison@reddit

You can practice. You just need a few friends who will help a little bit. Squeeze in like 5 minutes of b1 type stuff. Go to the markets. Watch those kids shows from that Belgian channel.

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Cazabath@reddit

I am a Dutch native, so I practise every day all day. 😉

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RubyCC@reddit

Why isn‘t that objective? Grammar is easy for me, most things in Dutch work exactly the same as in German, therefore easier for me as for someone coming from another language. Same for pronounciation.

Reading/Writing is probably much harder for someone coming from a language that is not using the Latin alphabet.

And lastly it‘s much easier for any German to just hop into the next train to the Netherlands to practice as for someone from the US.

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saxiflarp@reddit

Dutch is absolutely easier than German. Pronunciation may be harder, but Dutch grammar is like German grammar on training wheels.

I have learned both as a native English speaker. German is more satisfying to speak right, mainly because the grammar is so beautifully complex.

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cornflakes34@reddit

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Expensive-Pen1112@reddit

The only thing the link says is that of the 11 Germanic and Latin languages, German is the only one that takes measurably more time to learn.

My dad learned Dutch from subtitles, and his birth language is Polish. Which is way more different than English.

In short, get good.

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RandomCentipede387@reddit

Dutch is easy, so is German, French, Spanish... when you're a kid or a student and you have lots of free time on your hands.

It changes drastically once one gets a full-time job and family responsibilities. My streak on Duolingo is almost 600 days long by now, I did a full course, I have Dutch family and friends, I have my company, I do my own accounting and taxes, I understand quite some stuff in everyday life... and I have close to no time to learn to be able to use the language actively.

Which is surprising because personally (and from many foreigners that I heard), it seems like NL was the least racist place in mainland EU.

Do you have any anecdotes?

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BreathAny7577@reddit

i watched not just bikes and other research and it all says netherlands is one of the best place to live in the world.

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mckroket1965@reddit

If you are white have money and only hanging around for a couple of weeks the Netherlands and dutch people are fantastic hospitable people. Not so much if you are not.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

only hanging around for a couple of weeks the Netherlands and dutch people are fantastic hospitable people. Not so much if you are not.

can you elaborate?

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hudibrastic@reddit

You sound like me 10 years ago, when I moved to the Netherlands... The biggest regret of my life

I also was very anti-car-centric cities

All I can say is that all those things wane pretty quickly, but take some time until you accept it, if you are resistant to accepting you made a mistake like I was, then it might be too late

People talk like life is infinite, our time on Earth is short, and a life-changing mistake can be very hard to revert

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simple_explorer1@reddit

The biggest regret of my life

dutch person here. If you love cycling its probably the best country in the world. About xenopobic people: those are everywhere. Dutch people love everybody if you put an efford in. Most of us dont like lazyness. Meaning we are hard working people who want whats best for us. If you Come here and you Just want to hold your hands out for free stuff, people tend to look down on you.

But like everywhere no-one is the same. In bigger cities you will find more cultures compaired to small town. There are still towns where sunday is church Day and everything else is closed.

And i would like to welcome you to our country, hope this helped a bid. (Sorry if the spelling isn't correct)

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GlitteringPear9761@reddit

Dutch people love everybody if you put an efford in

white Dutch people don't consider Dutch people of color to be Dutch. Even Dutch people of color don't consider themselves as "true Dutch" because the culture is so racist and bigoted.

I am actually shit at riding a bicycle so a part of the reasons for the breakup was my inability to join the culture without one. You get to festivals, back from festivals, you ride to your friends, you get back drunk and fall into the ditch... Everything is done on a bike. I'm not even used to having the right of way on the bike! In Poland they see you as a road pancake, or a potential one. My dad is an avid cyclist and ehhh, three accidents in the past years.

It's an expensive country though. I will certainly struggle at first, finding an apartment is also a huge problem. Don't move if you don't have something lined up. Jobs are available, that's true. I saw multiple advertisements for English speaking store clerks and found it funny. Didn't expect to be able to work without the language skills. Mine are basic, but I can grasp Dutch through learning German as a child. At some point you start getting the conversations (unless they have a thick accent) There are different sectors and some are more or less occupied but I will never tell people there's no way to find something.

I never felt off, while being there. Ever since I was 14 I wanted to go. Then for 3 years it was a plan. Now I can crutch myself on asking my ex for help, but I do feel like it's a place to be :)

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TallTraveler@reddit

US expat in NL for 5+ years.

Bike infrastructure is wonderful, best in the world. It’s a way of life.

The race topic - there is racism in NL, it differs from that in the US. I find Dutch to have an heir of superiority relative to all other cultures (‘we are the best.’ More a mentality than explicitly stated). In the US people are acutely aware of and sensitive to racial topics. There is racism everywhere, NL and US generally provide good opportunities for many people, but both have their downsides.

US salary - definitely less financial upside in moving to Europe. For me the lifestyle benefits outweigh it. It’s not like there’s no opportunity, there is, but earning potential in US is far higher.

Other than that, the weather is shit more than half the year. You may think you can tolerate it well, but it really wears on me personally after a few months of no sun. Can be alleviated by traveling during winter.

Quality of life is great, but you’re not Dutch, and never will be, so you’ll always be an outsider in some respects. Language probably helps a lot on this topic.

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These-Psychology-959@reddit

What do you think about ratio salary/costs of living in the Netherlands?

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TallTraveler@reddit

Depends on the salary. I relocated with my US salary and it wasn’t decreased, which is a privileged position to be in. It’s good by NL standards, but very average for my field by US standards, and it’s stagnated relative to US-based peers.

That said it provides me a good quality of life, and things generally work pretty well in NL. I have my critiques, but am still here after 6 years….

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As a Dutchie, i find the most significant challenges / downsides to be:

A) cost of living with the double whammy of inflation and housing prices B) the difficulty of building a social network after uni. The best way is to have a social hobby like ttrpgs, a team sport, or volunteering. C) the lack of wilderness, mountains and hills. Remedied by travelling to the Alps or Scandinavia, but, man, would it be nice to have an incline in my runs.

I am an American living in Eindhoven for 3.5 years now. It is one of the best decisions I have made. It is one of the more livable cities because of its size(not too big), amazing infrastructure, great university and a lot of work.

Make the leap. DM me if you have any questions about the system here. You are already ahead of me in your Dutch.

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These-Psychology-959@reddit

What do you think about ratio salaries/costs of living in Eindhoven?

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BigTowely@reddit

The salaries are not high enough to buy in city center Eindhoven. All the young engineers who work for me rent in the city center because they can’t qualify for a loan large enough to buy. If you live in the small surrounding towns there is more affordable housing. Housing is the main/only cost of living issue, but I had the same issue in the US.

Expats (especially with the 30% ruling) have a huge benefit of being able to buy easily. I wouldn’t have come here if not for the 30% ruling because pays are lower.

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These-Psychology-959@reddit

I'm going to study Computer Science at TU/e and work in Eindhoven after graduation. That is why I asked about cost of living in Eindhvoen. How do you think what salary graduate can expect after bachelor in Eindhoven?

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westernstrawberryy@reddit

Just like any other western European shithole. It’s expensive and crime is rising

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GroundbreakingYak822@reddit

We have a houses shortage of around 300.000. Young Adults can't get one. If you have enough money to buy a house it is possible.

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During_theMeanwhilst@reddit

The Netherlands is great. I lived there from 96 - 2001 and if you like the culture and can speak some Dutch (mostly they just switch to English but the effort is appreciated) you will integrate. I speak as a white male - maybe in some places there is more emigrant hostility but I never really saw it when I was there. And the Dutch do have a lot about sensible living and sensible urban planning sorted out. And they have a functional government capable of planning ahead and undertaking long term infrastructure projects or they would be underwater. And as a young person what’s to lose? Eindhoven is close to Belgium and France and Germany so you have other cultures on your doorstep. The Dutch business culture is also good - they’re natural traders and pragmatists. In the first 5 years you can exempt 35% of your earnings from tax as an immigrant, although as a young person just starting out this may not matter so much. Positive attitude is everything and if you view it as an adventure you’ll do well. Obviously if your family includes a wife and or kids there is them to consider. Good luck.

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GlitteringPear9761@reddit

I speak as a white male

you will be left out if you do not speak it

You will be left out if you do speak it

source: Am American, learned the language, got more racism

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CaptainCalamares@reddit

I am Dutch, live in Eindhoven and have lots of expat friends. My gf is from abroad as well, so I’ve seen how she adapted. All the people who stayed managed to find a group of friends outside of work.

In expats groups on Facebook and here in this sub you mostly hear about rants from people who weren’t able to make friends and think life in the Netherlands is only about working and Dutch people directly go home after work and won’t have a beer with you. This may look like it when you don’t have any local friends.

In fact, Dutch people really value work/life balance and they do go to lots of festivals, Sunday afternoon drinks in the city, or just having a picknick with friends and their kids. And of course there are some boring people too who just go to work and then go home and are satisfied with that life.

It really helps when you learn the language. You will experience a totally different country and feel more part of society instead of an outsider. You will get the jokes and Dutch culture more.

Even though many speak English, they are not as comfortable with it as their mother tongue. So they always have to make an effort to switch to English for you. Especially in social situations, when you might be the only non-Dutch speaker, everybody has to adapt to you. At work they will do it, but maybe they don’t feel like it outside of work.

Also try to find friends through hobbies, such as a shared passion for a certain music style, arts, sports, etc. Join clubs, go to events, do social stuff.

It takes time to build real friendships, but I think through hobbies it’s easier to find like-minded people with whom you can connect more easily than at work.

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GlitteringPear9761@reddit

It really helps when you learn the language. You will experience a totally different country and feel more part of society instead of an outsider. You will get the jokes and Dutch culture more.

That's funny....after I learned the language all I got was more racism (because I understood the messed up shit that Dutch people would say in front of my face thinking I couldn't understand).

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SensitiveDonkey5784@reddit

I haven't lived in The NL but I am living abroad and obviously when I lived at home I socialised less because I had no need to see people, they are always there for last minute hangouts. But when expats arrive they want a full-on friendship thing that people living in their own country don't need.

I think The NL is one country, along with other smaller countries, to get a bad rap for being closed off when the reality is when a country is small and you can more easily keep in touch with the friends you made at 3 years old, at 13 years old, and at 23 years old, so it leads to natives having a very big social network that doesn't need expanding. They have all the socialising they could ever need.

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Ik vind het superleuk om te horen dat je zo enthousiast bent over Nederland :) Ondanks alle negativiteit is het gewoon fijn leven daar. Het gemak, de welvaart, de vrijheid. Ik zit nu in het buitenland en mis Nederland soms echt wel. Volg je dromen!

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Dexxert@reddit

*jullie mooie land

Do it mate, it will be a great adventure. If it sucks, change plans. That’s what life is about. Everything carries risk including doing the same as you’ve always done. You’re young, you can live many lives. Don’t be another what if person when you’re too old!

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Mediocre_Parfait_453@reddit (OP)

Ack, declension rules always get me, but I'm getting better, thank you!

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rosemayyyy@reddit

You are doing great!

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Dexxert@reddit

It’s not an easy language to learn! Good job

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Defiant-Dare1223@reddit

The big question is can you live with the downsides of where you have selected.

For an American moving to the US that could be anything from money (low pay, high tax), to the famous Dutch honesty/directness/rudeness, to being limited in employment without good Dutch?

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bruhbelacc@reddit

I've been living in the Netherlands for almost one year. And it's amazing. I don't see what's bad about the food, the weather is actually better than in the Balkans (I expected rain and cold days and didn't see anything like that). I haven't experienced discrimination and I don't find Dutch people cold, too direct or anything like that. It's a very individualistic country, which I like. Funnuly, I don't fit within expat or immigrant groups (Southern Europe, for example), because I don't like their warm communication style and openness (always seem too pushy). I'm fluent in Dutch (have been learning it for 2 years) and people always react positively and speak it with me, they don't just switch to English.

People who complain about incomes in the Netherlands have no idea what they are talking about.

I absolutely hate cars, car centric cities and driving. I do most things by bike, but even living in one of the most bike friendly cities in America, it's hell

While this is true, biking long distances is problematic if it's raining or snowing. Public transportation suffers major delays. Most people at the company I work for come to work with cars.

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a_library_socialist@reddit

Lived there for a bit - it's a lovely country. My family prefers the sea, so that's why we're not going there.

As a bike rider, it's the best place on earth. I was in a small city, but still had a great time just because the biking infrastructure was so nice - well, that and the beer is incredible (the food not much, but if you can cook the produce is just fine!). You literally have divided bike paths on highways, so if you want to bike across the country, no problem. You can take a train almost anywhere as well, so it's not like you're limited.

I spent several years living in the Netherlands and while I didn't like everything about it, I for sure would move back (it's been almost a decade though, no idea how much might have changed). I especially enjoyed the laid-back vibe, the friendliness of the people and the general attitude towards work/studies.

I kinda like this place and probably would move here completely if I find stable job and way to stay here for another 2 years. It's pretty calm and quiet, in my opinion working conditions are nice, people don't "rush to live". Living in small cities is wonderful if you like quiet rest.

I am living here for a year now. And I find terrible two things: housing crisis and food. It's better to have car because public transport is too expensive and pretty often people work in other cities. My parents were dying for boredom but I couldn't understand why. Some people from my country complain there's too many restrictions but really I am feeling ok with them and still didn't meet anything like that.

we moved to Netherlands and love it. I don’t get the “air of superiority” thing and yes there’s racism, but that’s fairly true of everywhere i’ve ever lived.

The bikes, the milder weather, the trains, the general forthright no bs, it’s all after my own heart.

I’m in my home country for a week and i am honestly going to admit i wouldn’t be here were it not a family emergency.

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ReallyTiredPony@reddit

I'm the biggest hater of the Netherlands, having lived here all my life. However, I will say, the infrastructure and safety is really nice. If that's important to you, you'll love it.

What makes it such a godawful place for me is the weather. It's mf JUNE right now, and I'm cycling around in a winter coat with a scarf. What the heck. And that is after MONTHS of miserable cold grey weather, that you constantly have to cycle through. Combine this with an overly structured culture, planned to death life, with an intense housing shortage and cost of living crisis, and a stressed population due to increasing workloads and rising precarity.. it just doesn't feel like a good place to live (anymore?).

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FishFeet500@reddit

it has been a wacky spring and summer this year!

But i’m canadian now living in NL and I’m pretty much used to odd weather.

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fux0c13ty@reddit

You hear a lot of complaints simply because of a lot of people moved to the Netherlands from this sub. I moved to Oslo almost a year ago and I still love it. But I joined a FB group that is for expats in Oslo and 90% of the posts are complaining about Norway. They say a lot that Norway is worse than 3rd world countries, I just find it ridiculous. There is always a cultural change and every country has its own problems. And yes some things might be better even in less developed countries (especially if someone is rich there) but it won't make the new country overall worse... I think you will love the Netherlands, but you have to learn to filter the inputs from other expats. And don't expect that the fences are made of sausages. Then you will have no problems..

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0urobrs@reddit

Things in the Netherlands really aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be on here and if you've already made friends there I'm sure you'll fit right in!

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wherescarmin@reddit

I did and love it. The housing situation is bad but you’ll eventually find something. The bike culture is a game changer. I like the way dutchies generally live their life.

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Cautious-Bit1466@reddit

same. moved here from the states. tried Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Malta, India, and Bali.

quality of like here is better. zero regrets.

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RecursiveParadox@reddit

I moved her in '91, became a citizen in '97 then, because I too wanted to chase the (mostly mythical) higher US salaries, moved to NYC in '98. Once our kids were old enough for school here, we moved back in 2010 and I haven't looked back once. In fact, I spent the last half of that decade in the City fantasizing about going back.

I've written about this before in this sub, and I totally understand some people's problems being in NL, especially younger people. I too had those problems. It took me a decade in NYC to figure out the problem lay not in NL but me. Or rather, my age and my expectations of what it meant to be in my 20s and 30s. And that's fair enough because at those ages one's expectations are all over the place and sometimes even contradictory.

My current "old man yells at sky" is how Americanized things are becoming here lately.

I love it here, and not to diminish the other people pooh-poohing NL, but I think their complaints arise out of an unacknowledged sense of entitlement. Each country has its own underlying values, often deep beneath the surface and in contrast to some of the nation's more obvious but less important downsides. If you vibe with NL you should come.

For balance and not anything to do with NL per se, u/HVP2019 's comments about common problems all immigrants face is also a good and helpful one.

It's natural that people will come to a subreddit to bitch about the things they struggle with. It doesn't, nor could it ever, represent objective reality.

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These-Psychology-959@reddit

What do you think about ratio salaries/costs of living in the Netherlands?

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Phronesis2000@reddit

I've never lived there, but live just over the border and have spent a lot of time there. I would say that overall, cost-of-living is high and salaries are medium.

But people tend to move to the Netherlands for lifestyle, rather than to become rich, so it won't matter for most people.

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These-Psychology-959@reddit

O, I got. What about Germany? I have 2 options to relocate. I think what is better.

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Phronesis2000@reddit

Germany has a lower cost-of-living, but generally salaries are lower and taxes are higher.

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I lived in the Netherlands for 15 years. I left it for UK, for new exciting job. Though UK is a lovely country, the self-suicidal garbage politics and failing NHS drove me away and I could have chose anywhere to go as I kept my job. I chose to go back to NL. Sure, this is not perfect, rental market is horrendous but I love not having to take my car for groceries, excellent public transport, getting health help with little waitlist (few weeks compare to 2-3 years in UK). If you feel this is the country you want to go, just go, you'll regret never trying.

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SensitiveDonkey5784@reddit

I hear that in the UK, you could have to wait weeks just to see a GP, but once you're there you're taken care of.

But I hear in The Netherlands you could see a GP faster but they'll just dismiss your pain/issue, tell you to go home and take a painkiller for many problems that need more help.

I work in the software industry in the Netherlands as an expat. I’m going to agree with what most people said that it’s not a mistake for you to try out living in the Netherlands. People on Reddit are negative about literally every country and do a great job of pointing out all the flaws of anywhere. The positives you listed of the Netherlands are just as valid. Here is overall a great place to be.

However, you should know that if you’re a very money-motivated person then you might be happier in the US. CS-related salaries here can be literally half (depending on region, experience) and the cost of living is definitely not half. But if you’re willing to sacrifice part of your earnings for the perks of living here, then go for it!

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Spiralsum@reddit

Very personal and subjective.

That said, I visited the Netherlands at a transitional point in my life and almost immediately met locals (some of them expats themselves) who wanted to help me learn how to open a business and how to adjust during relocation. They were polite before learning I might move there, but became almost enthusiastic about helping me once they thought I might (I did not end up moving there, but I enjoyed my visit).

One of my friends, who is from Chile, moved there and has never been happier. I think he's there for good.

So, a couple of anecdotes, but take them for what they're worth...

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satirevaitneics@reddit

Yes

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Robbieopreddit@reddit

I live in NL (born and raised but lived in Singapore and Zambia). I think I wouldn't live somewhere else. Have my childhood friends but also a large group of newer friends, of whom a portion are expats/immigrants.

You will get by with limited dutch knowledge, specially in the Randstad (circle of Rotterdam, Utrecht, Amsterdam, the Hague). If you go out and connect, in clubs, sporting whatever you will integrate the easiest.

The real opportunities if you have done mathematics are in econometric and actuary sciences imho. These are more scarce than msc in CS.

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Hiwhatsup666@reddit

Dutch suck

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No-Vehicle-4697@reddit

If you are from the US, moving to NL makes sense. Working culture is much better here

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Fruityth1ng@reddit

Amsterdam resident here: You’re not really giving up high US wages: you’re just taxed more (of a similar wage) to pay for those bicycle lanes and other services. If you want to start thinking like part of a bigger collective (humanity) rather than US exceptionalism you’ll love it here.

That said, we’ve had a neocon government for years who’d love nothing more than to make this a “me first fuck the rest capitalist hellscape” modeled after the US. So YMMV :) - I’ve been to the US a few times and I love a lot about it too, but a lot of systems in place (like car centric society) seem ill thought out and straight up hostile to comfortable living.

MadeThisUpToComment@reddit

I love it here. As long as you have a realistic understanding of housing and can afford it, I think it's a great place to live.

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I think a lot of people come to the Netherlands because of good job offers and of course the very convenient 30% ruling, without actually knowing a lot about the culture and if it is going to be a fit. Plus the salary might be great for what some are used to, but the cost of living can be seriously messed up, especially when setting yourself up from scratch without anybody to help.

The Netherlands has some real issues, plus the culture might seem open and fun if you visit for a weekend but definitely has its quirks and even downsides, especially when you are not prepared for them. On the other hand, there is also plenty to like and potentially even love.

It seems you are pretty prepared, and already even have a support network set-up. That is way more than a lot of people migrating to NL can say, and will definitely make your experience a lot more relaxed. The bitterness you often see in this sub often comes from a combination of incompatibility, bad luck and wrong expectations. I feel you have taken so many steps already it would be a shame not to try. Also, feel free to send me a DM in case you run into any questions along the way (I live in the Netherlands).

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Jeep_torrent39@reddit

I moved to the Netherlands a year ago and whilst it hasn’t been easy, I think it’s the best decision I have made

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walkietaco@reddit

Lucky France isn't so far away, so you can at least have proper food every once in a while

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HVP2019@reddit

It is mistake to read about very real and often mentioned issues and dismiss them because you think you think you will be immune.

It is way more productive to understand that you have real risk to be negatively effected by some of common issues migrants mention and have plans to overcome those issues. Have real contingency plans.

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Mediocre_Parfait_453@reddit (OP)

Oh yes, this is probably going to be the most challenging thing I've done. I'm not expecting to be immune to adversity. I guess going in knowing it's not an idyllic country, but one with its own set of problems helps avoiding disappointment.

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HVP2019@reddit

In knowing it’s not an idyllic country

I noticed that a lot of would be migrants anticipate problems due to country itself as in “every country has issues”.

And very few anticipate problems due to just being migrant ( regardless of the country).

Every migrant face risk of missing family, home, culture, even migrants who say they will be missing no one, not now, not in the future.

Every migrant face increased risk of missing out on important events: sister’s wedding, parent funeral. Elderly care from across the ocean is very challenging.

Migrants who lived perfectly content decide to start a family and suddenly they need to return back home for their kids to have grandparents.

Surprisingly common are migrants who say : “ My new country is fine, my new job is fine, everything is fine yet I am unhappy in my new country , Help “

Do not misinterpret my post as “a horror stories about life of a migrant”. That is NOT what I am saying.

I am listing often mentioned issues migrants mention. Issues they should had been aware of, but for some reason they did not anticipated.

I am actually very happy migrant myself ( 20 years and counting) and I am believer that migration can be very good for some people.

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Mediocre_Parfait_453@reddit (OP)

Missing my family is going to be the hardest, especially as they get older.

They say they'll visit, but with the logistics I'm not going to see them nearly as much as I'm used to, but at the same time I feel like I'm going to put them in an early grave with how much I stress them out by commuting by bike here.

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Infinite_Love_23@reddit

Also, if you get a half decent job in the Netherlands, even though you'll be making much less comparatively, with your mandated minimum 25 days of vacation time which you can use at your own discretion, there'll be plenty of opportunities for you to visit your family back home.

I'm not an expat, I'm from the Netherlands. This sub just popped up. There's a lot of reasons not to move here, it can be hard to find an appartment or place to stay and it can be hard to become friends with Dutchies. It's not because we don't like expats or immigrants, it's just because the Dutch culture is not very open to making new friends in adulthood. Most of us plan their free time weeks in advance, so making spur of the moment plans is usually fairly difficult. And building new friendships is something that requires a time investment and most people feel like they have their circles set in early adulthood. But from what I gather you've already made some friends and knowing a few people can be a great way to be introduced to others. Also, playing sports can be a great way to make new friends, especially in any kind of team capacity.

I think most criticism you read is from people who have some weird perception of The Netherlands. If people only watching flashy YouTube videos about the country or go for a few days to a tourist trap like Amsterdam, your perception of the country is false. It’s just another country with its pros and cons. As long as you can deal with the cons and enjoy the pros, you should go for it.

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AutomaticFeed1774@reddit

I loved the netherlands when I was there. I've heard its almost impossible to get an apartment though in Amsterdam, but easier in other cities. Never seen more happy people in my life than in the Netherlands.

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Inshabel@reddit

It seems for the last couple of years my country has been hyped up as the ultimate expat destination, so you get a wave of people clambering to move here and finding out after the fact that we are just a country, some things we do better than other countries, a lot of things we do worse.

I love it here, but I've never lived anywhere else so I don't have a proper frame of reference, but it seems to me that the recent wave of dissapointment is a result of people being overhyped and then getting a reality check when they find out we're not a utopia.

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gowithflow192@reddit

Plenty people "fell in love" with this place before moving. So try it. Just be prepared to fall out of love with it. Don't let shitting on your home country or being in denial about downsides of NL become a part of your identity - I've met many people who really shouldn't be here anymore but their ego stops them leaving, it became a part of their identity to keep talking up their move even though it ended up not very well for them. Don't be those people, it's OK to change your mind later and not "failure".

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ericblair21@reddit

Very much this. People who move somewhere just to prove a point are bound to be miserable sooner or later, so engage your new home on its own terms and if you need to move again in your life for your own reasons, that's OK.

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fuserz@reddit

Moved to the Netherlands from Italy 5 years ago. Best decision ever, zero regrets. For sure it's different and some people may feel like they don't belong due to many reasons, but if you've already been there and it clicked for you.. well, go for it, mate!

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SamuelVimesTrained@reddit

Frankly, every country has pros and cons.

Sure, we are bike friendly - but crappy weather.
These SUVs/ Trucks - they are increasing here too :(

Of course, we have a decent healthcare system (still), US.. well.. if you have money it`s okay.
As part of the EU, Netherlands has employee protections in place, the US not so much.

The US has lots of space, awesome national parks and nature in a LOT of variation. NL, a lot less. And, it`s being nibbled on by growing cities/towns too.

chardrizard@reddit

I am still in love with it after 4 years here. Best decision I have done in the last decade. Dutchies are great people.

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Heco1331@reddit

I lived 6 years in Amsterdam (left about half a year ago) and absolutely love the city. Everyone speaks English, very chill place and beautiful city. Downside is the weather, but its mostly shared with half of Europe. I miss it.

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Zonoc@reddit

I don't think you're making a mistake at all!

My family is planning to leave the US primarily to avoid car violence too, we're looking at Oslo, Norway primarily, but the Netherlands is on the list as well. Every country does have drawbacks, no place is perfect. One thing I've heard from other people who have moved abroad is that it's a lot easier to deal with the downsides of a place when the positives are a very real part of your daily life vs an abstract thing like avoiding US politics (which usually doesn't have a day to day effect on our lives). When people like us bike in safe bike friendly European cities we are reminded in a very real way multiple times per day why our new country is better and worth the trouble.

You should read the book Curbing Traffic: The Human Case for Fewer Cars in Our
Lives, it's about a Canadian family that moves to the Netherlands for biking and how much they love it. It's inspirational! The abridged version of the book is this episode of the War on Cars: https://thewaroncars.org/2021/12/27/curbing-traffic-with-melissa-and-chris-bruntlett/

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Raisin6436@reddit

Netherlands is a gorgeous country.

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Science_Teecha@reddit

I do think attitude has a lot to do with it!

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SheeshWillBeLoved@reddit

I don’t think you’re making a mistake. I moved to Turkey for the same reasons because I honestly hate driving plus my boyfriend and most of my friends were there. I was able to be there for nine months and I just got back to the US and I feel so miserable. It was an amazing experience and being with people who actually became a part of my new extended family was something I will forever miss. Definitely think that you should go there for however long and if you feel like you need to come back to the US do that, but if you feel like the Netherlands is now your forever home, don’t let anyone make you think you made a terrible mistake.