The EU is trying to implement a plan to use AI to scan and report all private encrypted communication. This is insane and breaks the fundamental concepts of privacy and end to end encryption. Don’t sleep on this Europeans. Call and harass your reps in Brussels.

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prinstach346@reddit

And they uses the fight against pedophilia online as an excuse to make everyone agree without thinking about it...

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prinstach346@reddit

Fuck... Didn't even know that... That's fucking scary... And in France we're fucked, most of our EU Reps are fascists....

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SnooOpinions8729@reddit

The next battleground for freedom of speech will be Europe and their nanny-state governments.

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ExaminationWhich9299@reddit

I trust the Europeans will object enough for it to be shot down. They just need to be informed of it.

[-]

The U.K. started doing this for all traffic from overseas about 25 years ago. Basically anything that came over on that undersea cable. They all have. Now they are just being up-front about adding AI to their existing programs.
What can you do? Nothing. But then, again, why would you need to hide anything, friend citizen?
Also, report to orange sector for re-education. Can never be too careful.

[-]

B3_Kind_R3wind_@reddit (OP)

Meanwhile..

Leak: EU interior ministers want to exempt themselves from chat control bulk scanning of private messages

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el_muchacho@reddit

That's totally contrary to the AI recommendations that were written years ago. The problem is the current head of the EU Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, is a corrupt hack. She recently fired the commissioners who actually knew what they were talking about, and had consumer protection in mind, to pander to the shitty billionaires like Elon Musk instead.

[-]

mrvictorywin@reddit

Standards for thee not for mee

[-]

TheBigCore@reddit

calls their reps in Brussells

receives voicemail message "your call is very important to us. please hold.

10 minutes later, call hangs up and is nothing but dialtone.

[-]

L3ARnR@reddit

10 minutes of surveillance clocked

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rbmorse@reddit

Then you name gets added to "the list."

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delboy85341@reddit

Reminds me of the cartoon I saw recently. A man is on the phone. The voice says "Your call is important to us. Please stay on the line until it's no longer important to you"

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Teenager_Simon@reddit

1984 for poors and free for me

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S48GS@reddit

Use AI:

to completely devalue value of art
to completely devalue value of literature and satire
to flood internet and other mass media with insane amount of AI-generated content - so humans will not able to filter this much information and everything turned into just empty meaningless noise on background
above also impact "journalism" - finally journalism completely eliminated

Now:

only single source of information
only single corporation as source of computer hardware
we back to our roots - you born to be soldier or work at factory, with no other options
For superearth!

[-]

AggressiveGarage707@reddit

AI's other great use is criminal scum scamming people, the case for a justifiable resistance to oppose AI in a bloodless war (ie restricted to property damage) is solidifying.

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AndrewZabar@reddit

I have always thought everyone knew they were choking for this kind of power ever since the internet started being ubiquitous. Free exchange of ideas and information from person to person? Worldwide?? Good lord that was a nightmare to them. They had everything under control before; the media, television, radio, news, and education. There wasn’t anything they didn’t have reins attached to.

But the internet started letting ideas flow free, and also started letting people actually unite and take sides against the overlords.

They’ve had a rock hard erection for AI all this time and meanwhile they’ve been doing the shit manually. There are misinformation companies who have LITERALLY millions of domains registered - at least that’s what a couple of them told some journalist’s article I read a couple years ago. But regardless, yeah they have never wanted any freedom beyond what they bestow.

We are going to either wind up in a dystopia or we are going to have some major revolutions. And it’s probably coming in a matter of a few decades at most. Hard to estimate. How much time until every human on earth (minus THEM), has nothing left to lose?

[-]

S48GS@reddit

We are going to either wind up in a dystopia

if you read this https://fediscience.org/@petersuber/112955833094025792 - Transcript of yesterday's #Trump - #Musk conversation.

Musk on border security (34:03):

"It's just not possible for the United States to absorb everyone from Earth, or even a few percent of the rest of Earth. It's just not possible."

Musk and Trump on nuclear weapons (1:20:48):

Musk: "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, but now they're like full cities again. So it's really not something that, you know."

Trump: "That's great."

Musk: "So it's not as scary as people think basically."

And watch this - https://youtu.be/FkKPsLxgpuY?t=1112 - Veritasium video - 18:33 time - in past people used "IQ test" as definition of "value of human".

AI obviously can be used to make tool to define "value of human" - just connect human life patterns to genetic data - boom you have another tool to define "value of human".

And then just use that tool to value countries and regions.

Like my region where I live - live for many many years being under rocket/drones explosions right above house where I live - obvious next step is - since it "not getting better" - they drop nukes - and my value as human - is to be +1 in statistic of nuke.

What a time to be alive.

[-]

AndrewZabar@reddit

Yeah and society doesn’t unite against this shit because most people are stupid and beyond that most people won’t give up something they enjoy just because it’s bad for society. People are almost but not quite incapable of acting now on something that will have consequences a very long time from now.

People who benefit from things that harm everyone in the long run will never ever ever do any differently. We as a society have the capacity to prevent this stuff but only in theory. In practice there’s too much division (intentionally fostered by the powers that be), too much apathy (intentionally fostered by the powers that be), shitty education and lack of critical thinking skills (intentionally fostered by the powers that be), way way way too much religion (intentionally fostered by the powers that be) - which itself fosters these things as well.

The thing is most people just cannot afford emotionally to dive into playing an active role in making things better.

Hopefully I won’t get banned for this but godfuckingdammit why did that asshole have to miss and only wing the ear.

[-]

GooseManMail@reddit

Good to know you're in favor of assassinating people for being political opponents of people like yourself. (Not good.)

[-]

AndrewZabar@reddit

No, no, you can’t possibly insinuate guilt for trying to take out a dictator warlord sociopath. It’s a far cry from just being opposition. An adorable try though.

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Ok_Antelope_1953@reddit

journalism went down the drain long before AI. the moment businesses found out about clickbait, most real journalists were pushed out to make room for "engagement" seeking clowns.

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WinEunuuchs2Unix@reddit

Real jounalists get banned. Real Truth (RT) websites get banned even on TikTok America and TikTok Spain. Technically China is a friend of RT (Russia Today) but they ban it when asked to do so.

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Indolent_Bard@reddit

What real truth websites?

[-]

Inside-General-797@reddit

At least there were people writing stuff! Now it feels like half the internet is AI generated content!

[-]

Due-Action-4583@reddit

scrolling facebook recently and the feed is full of pages pushing AI generated "photos" and hundreds of people commenting on them that don't realize the photos are not real

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Coffee_Ops@reddit

Click bait has been around long before computers existed.

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WinEunuuchs2Unix@reddit

haha at first I thought you wrote "Chick bait" and not "Click bait".

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chaosgirl93@reddit

We used to call it "yellow journalism".

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eriomys@reddit

unprofessional social media and smartphone videos replaced journalists as they were faster to publish and without censorship or edits.

[-]

Which-Moose4980@reddit

A little late, but I'm curious about the "superearth" comment.

[-]

S48GS@reddit

in which way?

My comment/context was obvious sarcasm/hyperbola.

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Which-Moose4980@reddit

I just wasn’t sure what you meant by the superearth part and was curious.

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S48GS@reddit

I just wasn’t sure what you meant by the superearth part and was curious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers

https://youtu.be/UC5EpJR0GBQ

[-]

TallDog9297@reddit

For a moment I thought of Helldivers (effectively inspired by Starship Troopers)

[-]

S48GS@reddit

I read alot of military-futurism from 60-80-s include many U.S. popular authors - it all about same, Starship Troopers and Helldivers2 is just more modern representation of same ideas.

[-]

Which-Moose4980@reddit

Ah thanks. I love the first Starship Troopers movie bur never followed it after that.

[-]

BufferUnderpants@reddit

How sarcastic is it?

Billions are being invested into making knowledge workers into assemly line workers operating the extremely capital expensive machinery of a handful of industrialists, many venues for social mobility will be shut as human capital is commoditized, but the kitchens and scooters to deliver food to middle managers will still need bodies.

[-]

S48GS@reddit

How sarcastic is it?

Billions are being invested into making knowledge workers into assemly line workers operating the extremely capital expensive machinery of a handful of industrialists,

If your context is - "IT bros making another try of determination value-of-human".

https://youtu.be/FkKPsLxgpuY?t=1112 - Veritasium video - 18:33 time - one of previous try to do the same.

It way too obvious where it all going.

[-]

the_MOONster@reddit

Now Revelation 13 doesn't sound that stupid anymore, does it? :p

[-]

NoMansSkyWasAlright@reddit

I dunno, I really like that AI can autogenerate comments for you on LinkedIn and they show up under basically every post. Someone made about Pluto and the comment it suggested was “how has the removal of Pluto from the solar system affected things?”

Apparently it’s just gone now, guys.

[-]

Citan777@reddit

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerously coherent and credible...

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SlowMemory29@reddit

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢰⠤⠤⣄⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣟⠳⢦⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠒⣲⡄ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⡇⡇⡱⠲⢤⣀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀1984⠀⣠⠴⠊⢹⠁ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⢻⠓⠀⠉⣥⣀⣠⠞⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡴⠋⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⡾⣄⠀⠀⢳⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⢠⡄⢀⡴⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡞⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⣠⢎⡉⢦⡀⠀⠀⡸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡼⣣⠧⡼⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⠇⠀ ⠀⢀⡔⠁⠀⠙⠢⢭⣢⡚⢣⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣇⠁⢸⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀ ⠀⡞⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⢫⡉⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⢮⠈⡦⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣸⠀⠀ ⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢦⡀⣀⡴⠃⠀⡷⡇⢀⡴⠋⠉⠉⠙⠓⠒⠃⠀⠀ ⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠁⠀⠀⡼⠀⣷⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⡞⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠣⣀⠀⠀⡰⠋⠀

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WinEunuuchs2Unix@reddit

1984 was literally a book ahead of it's time.

[-]

_leeloo_7_@reddit

meanwhile google and microsoft

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ElectricalWind5807@reddit

and apple

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Mal_Dun@reddit

aka how the EVP understands law making.

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Nelo999@reddit

This was was introduced and advocated by a Social Democrat MEP from Sweden.

So, no.

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Mal_Dun@reddit

If you look how parties normally vote on these kind of laws, then yes.

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CyclopsRock@reddit

This is genuinely very common. Often laws won't affect those that enact them on the grounds that you don't want the people making laws like this to do so through the lens of specifically how it will personally affect them and their political opponents.

There are loads of examples in the US where Congress writes laws that bind private sector and executive branch employees but not themselves, including in areas so minor as to be basically inconceivably be because they view themselves as above the law - such as health and safely rules in their offices, or laws regarding signage. And typically any restrictions still apply to them outside of work.

Obviously this doesn't mean exempting themselves from laws cannot be due to self interest, but it's by no means the only explanation.

[-]

Fnordinger@reddit

Generally true, but the way it is supposed to be implemented (supposedly „privacy respecting“ and only meaningful if CP has been found + opt out possibility, which will also lock you out from sending pictures), it’s weird that the effects should be relevant for them. They don’t have to send pictures as part of their job and so could bypass the scanning completely.

It doesn’t help that there were cases where politicians „accidentally“ deleted all messages on their phone that could have been evidence for investigations (Like Ursula von der Leyen).

[-]

jim_lake4598@reddit

hypocrites

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PM_me_cybersec_tips@reddit

it's a big club and we're not in it

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WickedEdge@reddit

So if this is true, what happens after they leave their position of power? lol...

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mnemonic_carrier@reddit

This is truly disgusting. MEPs should be more transparent than the citizens of EU countries. There's no democracy in the EU.

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fleece19900@reddit

What do they have to hide? Are they cooperating with foreign agents? Are they corrupt? They should be under the highest level of scrutiny

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Positive-Role-9936@reddit

I love how they are using the excuse of child exploitation to soften people up to allow for this garbage. Almost like saying, if you want want any privacy, you are a pedophile supporter.

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SirArthurPT@reddit

I wonder if being dumb is a requirement for being a politician. Do those idiots realise that even if they are exempt during office they will not be there forever and won't be exempt afterwards?

They're creating awful tools that can, and eventually will, be used against themselves!

[-]

lordoftheclings@reddit

They're not dumb but the populace is - they are not outraged, protesting or anything. Politicians do whatever they want - they would keep it exempt for themselves, for sure.

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Holzkohlen@reddit

Of course they do. It subverts all privacy, they know exactly how crappy this is.

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fossfan83@reddit

Only privacy for rich and powerful and criminals. EU going like China and Russia.

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lordoftheclings@reddit

They already were - Europeans just have their heads in the clouds.

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ODByall@reddit

LOL

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the_MOONster@reddit

Maybe it is time for torches and pitchforks...

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leafWhirlpool69@reddit

chat control

Oh yeah that totally won't be used to police private conversations related to political dissent, no, never. Only to stop pedophiles. Just trust them

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lezzmeister@reddit

Remember when Sweden had that list of banned websites to get CP and terrorism off the internet? And half the list was websites arguing against this and government overreach? I remember.

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nicgeolaw@reddit

"In-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect"

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ObeyCoffeeDrinkSatan@reddit

The article says it's intelligence services, the military, and police that will be exempt. Which is obviously sensible.

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FierceDispersion@reddit

The security risks of scanning a million citizens' cat pictures do not outweigh the chances than one of them will be sending CSAM.

Even if you are ok with them invading your privacy like this, it doesn't even protect the children!

[-]

briek0@reddit

Linux users I'm in Urgent need of help I'm trying to download Linux and I uploaded the image of what I need help with

[-]

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[-]

Yersinia-pestis89@reddit

eu sucks

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Unslaadahsil@reddit

So... how would this work?

If an AI is reporting all encrypted communications, doesn't that still keep them encrypted? language seems a bit ambiguous.

Just to be clear: I just want to know how this would work, I'm in no way in favour of it, and I would sign against it if I could.

[-]

Tsiox@reddit

No one has demonstrated an effective solution to breaking AES, AI or not. This is little minds getting wound up about science fiction.

Time to worry is when you hear about Signal changing their encryption algorithm.

[-]

PsychologicalBadger@reddit

Really? Why go up against the cypher when you can hack in a keylogger? Or use VonPhreaking to see everything on a remote computers display without any physical connection? How do YOU know AES in uncrackable? If you used brute force methods to crack a cypher how long would it take one computer to do it? The life of the universe right? What about a cluster of computers? What if you used all the computers in the world on some zombie hacked super beuwolf (Spellink?) cluster? What if you just turned on the camera and microphone to all the phones near the sending or receiving system? We know that is possible. And we know that you can use Google to find you location at any date and anytime if you know what your doing?

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draoi28@reddit

AI can't break encryption though.

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PsychologicalBadger@reddit

Really? So how is it hackers at Black hat (For example) are finding ways to unencrypt all sorts of encrypted forms of communications? How about the designer of Telegram being jailed because he refused to help unencrypt private messages with his system? Or spy places that put nasty back doors into code so you "think" your sending encrypted data but some agency or agencies have a secret key? When I heard that one of the most basic libraries used for C (Or C++?) had code that had some sort of back door and every program compiled thus had this installed? I think we have a very serious problem if we don't want "BIG BROTHER" watching us. I think a reread of the book 1984 would be interesting if you upgraded the tech to today. We are living in a nightmarish time.

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MiPok24@reddit

They want to force the operating systems and chat apps to forward everything for scanning before it is encrypted ...

Then there is no need to break it

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Hugogs10@reddit

What if I encrypt it before sending?

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huggarn@reddit

on a device running their model? you'd have to send already encrypted messsage to the device from outside

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draoi28@reddit

Oh crazy, what about Linux?

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MiPok24@reddit

They want to force any chat provider. Linux has no Chat service itself.

In such a case it's more like Signal, Threema, WhatsApp, Telegram, E-mail-clients, ...

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goddale120@reddit

and how pray tell will these disgusting politicians handle out-of-continent communications? Pretty dang sure Europeans spying on my texts goes against Canadian privacy laws...

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Julian_1_2_3_4_5@reddit

It would probably be made illegal to use ones that don't do it

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Iwisp360@reddit

Ok, I use Linux, so no problem

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MiPok24@reddit

They want to force any chat provider. Linux has no Chat service itself.

Do you use Signal, Threema, WhatsApp, Telegram,...? Then it's a problem for you, too.

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Julian_1_2_3_4_5@reddit

i mean technically they canmt stop me from hosting,a matrix or xmpp server with e2e encryption, but that will only save the tech savy folks

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spazturtle@reddit

Yes you could do that but then you would be operating an illegal E2E encrypted communication system and they could charge you.

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Iwisp360@reddit

Damn boy

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Bye_nao@reddit

Until they ban all compliant projects from distributing in backdoored distributions and packages in EU. Fine, maybe you can find a magnet link from deepweb or something, but most people? Won't bother or know how to.

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Able-Reference754@reddit

Or just mandatory secure boot for consumer PCs and kernel backdoor requirements for signing :)

Locked bootloaders to force you into a spyware ecosystem are already a thing on Android.

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Positive-Role-9936@reddit

AI is not needed.

The United States literally has an entire agency of 30,000-40,000 (thousands of mathematicians and computer scientists) whose job it is to break encryption (NSA). There is no encryption on this earth that is not able to be broken or that the governments of the world don't already have backdoors for.

Whenever you see these government agencies struggling to get access into an iPhone, it's all theater to create the illusion that they can't access it so the public still has belief in the security algorithms.

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Positive-Role-9936@reddit

The United States literally has an entire agency of 30,000-40,000 people those job it is to break encryption (NSA). There is nothing on this earth that is not able to be broken or that the governments of the world don't already have backdoors for.

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Remarkable-Fox-3890@reddit

Makes no sense. AI would do a terrible job of this and solving this problem is already trivial. Just check the entropy of the data. Detecting encrypted traffic is literally trivial.

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SharpeThe1st@reddit

See ya at the smoke signals boys!!!

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goshaneso@reddit

where is the source of this info?

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chitibus@reddit

From social media, where all dumb people are.

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chitibus@reddit

Well, a truth half said is actually a lie. The correct information is: The European Union is considering controversial proposals to mass scan private communications on encrypted messaging apps for child sex abuse material. Social media dumbs people. There are some discussion how to protect children in this direction. Funny is that this so called Linux channel is still keeping this lie on top. I am out of here, lies and dumb people.

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brianj64@reddit

Why is this kind of shit always implemented under the guise of stopping CSAM? People who consume and share these things will just find another way and the surveillance finds anything but CSAM, undermining its own goal entirely.

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PM_me_cybersec_tips@reddit

damn, imagine the AI hallucinations getting people wrongfully accused of things, too

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whatthesamuel@reddit

Is this even possible? Does this mean that 256-bit encryptions can now be solved by AI?

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flame-otter@reddit

Feels more like they are trying to make it illegal to communicate with encrypted messages. If you do then they can just arrest you or put you on a watch list.

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ledoscreen@reddit

Among other things, it's a sure sign that things aren't going well for the overlords when it comes to spying on users of online chat rooms, https communications, not to mention end-to-end encrypted systems.

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redditfov@reddit

Why is AI needed? Isn't this going to increase power consumption and computational overhead for virtually anyone that needs encryption?

[-]

AdamTheSlave@reddit

Do they know that the entire web is basically encrypted now for safety? How will they get the processing power? Just going to an https site is encrypted, and it's pretty much the default way to load a site now. All email servers are encrypted now.

So they are saying they are going to scan private emails of their allies? So a US Embassy sends an email to the home base and they can just read that? To me, that sounds like straight up espionage, and doing that to an ally seems like a great way to lose an ally.

What happens when that system is penetrated by enemy hackers? What if they get access to that system and decide to read allll the private emails of US embassy officials? I'm not saying it's likely, but let's be honest, it would be a HUGE target for Russia, North Korea, China, etc.

[-]

githman@reddit

Hardly surprising but is it actually possible from the technical perspective? Unless they have a backdoor to TLS, no AI would help.

The intent counts, though.

[-]

tdammers@reddit

Indeed - it's not the "AI" part that's problematic, it's the "scanning" part.

As the linked article states, such a thing would only be possible through the following means:

By compromising the encryption (i.e., a backdoor)
By sending the cleartext to a scanning service prior to encryption
By doing the scanning on the client side prior to encryption

The first one obviously renders the encryption moot, because now anyone with access to the backdoor can decrypt.

The second one also renders the encryption moot, because sending the message to another recipient with a different encryption key (or, worse, no encryption at all) is pretty much equivalent to a backdoor.

The third one can only possibly work if whoever does the scanning can effectively control the client, which means that the client is no longer trustworthy, and again, this renders the encryption moot.

The "AI" part is just about what happens to the message once you have bypassed the end-to-end encryption; I guess it was thrown in to make the idea sound like something fundamentally new, to take a fresh stab at undermining encryption after EU regulators have repeatedly taken the stance that end-to-end encryption should be left alone.

[-]

huggarn@reddit

already done, tried and tested the tech almost 10 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan_man-in-the-middle_attack

[-]

tdammers@reddit

Yes - it's considerably easier with something like TLS, where you can't really exchange keys out-of-band (e.g., by meeting in person and verifying each other's keys from QR codes). This is basically a social engineering attack, where you trick people into trusting a certificate (i.e., a key) that they shouldn't be trusting.

It's still orthogonal to the whole "AI" part. You cannot "use AI to scan encrypted communication". "Using AI to scan encrypted communication" does not break the fundamental concepts of end-to-end encryption, rather, breaking end-to-end encryption is a prerequisite for scanning the encrypted communication (whether you use "AI" for that or not). And it's not the "using AI" part that's bad, it's the "breaking end-to-end encryption" part. The "AI" thing is just thrown in to hype it up some more.

[-]

lazyboy76@reddit

I believe there are other options. Like encrypt by one key, and sign the package by a second key.

They will only need to check if the package was sign by the second key.

[-]

tdammers@reddit

But if you encrypt the message with a key that the scanner does not have access to, then it cannot really scan much - all it can do is verify that the encrypted message is coming from the advertised recipient, and that it hasn't been tampered with. This is still bad, because it allows a surveillance system to monitor and mine metadata (who messages whom when, how often, and how much data), but it would not amount to "AI" scanning the messages themselves - but this is pretty much a reality already.

[-]

githman@reddit

A sound analysis. While I don't think this threat is going to become real any time soon, I will add some comments as an exercise in healthy paranoia.

By compromising the encryption (i.e., a backdoor)

Yep. I'd say this is the most realistic path.

By sending the cleartext to a scanning service prior to encryption

Would be noisy on the user device: weird network connections.

By doing the scanning on the client side prior to encryption

Even more noisy: high CPU load, high RAM usage, weird connections.

And finally, the AI itself. Being 2.5-lingual, I deal with Google Translate and other AI-based excuses for a natural language comprehension system every day. Man, they so do not know what they read and translate, it's plain not funny. The amount of false reports on suspected free speech is going to be hilarious.

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Analog_Account@reddit

Even more noisy: high CPU load, high RAM usage, weird connections.

When I read this I just assumed it was about client side monitoring. Microsoft is doing that recall thing, lots of phones are coming with NPU's... Potentially this could happen in the background on your device soon.

[-]

lazyboy76@reddit

They'll do this on AI phones and closed-source computer.

Don't know how they'll deal with opensource phone and computer.

[-]

AntLive9218@reddit

Most communication platforms are already not trustworthy, so making them obviously hostile is just the logical next step.

Before commercial data collection it was possible to pick from multiple clients for many chat services. Sometimes there were some issues now and then with non-official clients, but that's just the part of progress without a stable API, it was not malice yet. Now most clients are closed source, and older versions stop working after a very short transitioning period, so it's not feasible to do any auditing. This is often combined with using a locked down device (typically phone) mandatory where the "owner" isn't even allowed to observe the behavior of the black box.

It generally feels like this problem is inevitable, and the EU is a huge fan of it. For example if it would really care about the platform fragmentation, then we could start with taking a step back to the days when even multi-service clients like Pidgin existed, but that would undermine the authoritarian plans being worked on.

Also looking at the larger picture it's only going to get worse because these tools are always misused to weed out the naughty citizens spreading dangerous ideas like freedom and privacy. It's not like there's any transparency, if pictures spreading undesired ideas get totally accidentally added to the detection list, then it's not like the people spreading them would get notified, they would just get on a list which might lead to further and more specific accidents happening to them in other systems making life changing decisions but also not having transparency. Details might change based on the country, but maybe the rebellious young adult still full of hope for a better world just happens not to get into a desired university, but surely just because other candidates scored higher (in case there's no scoring transparency).

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FrederikSchack@reddit

I had to go back to Whatsapp after Element/Matrix failed miserably.... There isn't any decent privacy focused communications platform that really works.

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AntLive9218@reddit

Feels like you just have to choose the least worst option based on your needs just like in many other cases as good options are generally fading away.

For example I get that Whatsapp is likely the most popular option for friends and family if you are okay with Meta/Facebook awkwardly joining your inner circle, but on the other hand the phone number usage automatically makes it quite dangerous for communicating with strangers you don't want to expose your whole identity to.

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FrederikSchack@reddit

What's the solution, I can't get family and friends to use junk like Element.

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equisetopsida@reddit

Signal is decent, and does a bit better than W.

[-]

FrederikSchack@reddit

Personally I don't trust Signal.

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FrederikSchack@reddit

I think I tried all the best options with in messaging Session, XMPP, Matrix, Tox, Briar e.t.c.

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Ansky11@reddit

There is no FOSS app that has E2E, decentralization, Tor routing, audio, video, conferencing, with clients for all platforms.

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ExponentialBeard@reddit

They will oblige all europeans to download a software which will be an agent with a tcpdump like software they will scan the communications. About the certificates maybe they search via ai a way ti decrypt all that info

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VirtuteECanoscenza@reddit

Well what will happen is that criminals will keep sharing CP using illegal software, while you're average Joe will go to jail due to a picture of their naked kids at the beach...

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TampaPowers@reddit

Remember upload filters? Yeah turns out you can't actually scrape everything that gets uploaded for potential violations because the hash database for that would be massive and essentially double the traffic volume. Let alone the part about changing one pixel in a picture and you get a different hash. The technical requirements to make that work are so astronomical they can't really be implemented without upgrading the network, which no one wants to fund.

Similar thing with intercepting communication on such a level. 300million people sending messages at least ten times a day on average, good luck. It's already impressive the network is able to withstand the traffic it sees with the performance it has. Double that overnight. No chance.

EU says a lot of stuff that makes no sense and has seemingly no relation to the real world. You kinda get used to that a bit over time, but I do have to agree that they need to start using their braincells. Problem is, good luck getting them to listen when powerful lobbies, er sponsors, are providing the "experts" for their education on such matters. Some of the debates they have and "facts" they base these things on are so out of this world you start to feel like it's best to not listen to it at all and hope that local ratification of their laws are more sensible. Not that there is much hope given the average politician.

[-]

newsflashjackass@reddit

EU says a lot of stuff that makes no sense and has seemingly no relation to the real world.

Easier to pass a law than enforce it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_pi_bill

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newsflashjackass@reddit

Hardly surprising but is it actually possible from the technical perspective?

In most cases, yes.

You: "I will use my super secure communication platform so no one eavesdrops."

The rest of humanity: "I can only be reached on new FaceTok AnalGape, the only communications platform with EchoChamber technology so everyone hears what you have to say!"

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EntertainedEmpanada@reddit

TLS? What the fuck are you talking about?

Protection of end-to-end encryption

No detection on E2EE data

Proposed wording in article 1(5): “Without prejudice to Article 10a, this Regulation shall not prohibit or make impossible endtoend encryption, implemented by the relevant information society services or by the users. This Regulation shall not create any obligation to decrypt or create access to endtoend encrypted data, or that would prevent providers from offering endtoend encrypted services.”

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calibrono@reddit

TLS != E2EE.

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donald_314@reddit

But of course it's possible. All phones and apps will be required to report what you send.

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Able-Reference754@reddit

force services to scan your data on the clientside before encryption pretty much seems to be the play with all these proposals.

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AutomaticDriver5882@reddit

Next will be blocking vpn watch

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huggarn@reddit

there's no reason to block vpn's. They only make it easier to find out potential perpetrators

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TampaPowers@reddit

How is that supposed to work? Pattern recognition on random bytes? At the datarates that come about when 300 million people text for AI to go through and waste a couple GPUs worth of compute power trying to find something that might hint at suspicious activity? Neither the net nor the compute power is there to handle any of it. It's another EU "law" aimed at giving them the power to go after problematic entities and such. Just as gdpr doesn't even apply to 90% of things on the net and just provides the EU with a way to impose massive fines. They ain't gonna bother with the small fry when they know that'll fall inline when the big fines make the news.

Also posting a link to something signal has said on that is not exactly transparent either. They are as much an echo chamber as the lobby, er sorry sponsorship, parties the EU reps get treated to.

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Michaelmrose@reddit

Basically devices are going to be shipping with enough compute to run simple models and simple models are going to get more capable especially of simple use cases. You could have a local model read all your messages and then explicitly rat you out if you were planning to in its estimation commit a crime.

This of course ignores the fact that given a chance people wouldn't willingly communicate anything incriminating via snitchware and those who are actually planning crimes would be liable to use simple old shit to avoid snitchware so in short order the only thing you are going to get is false positives.

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TampaPowers@reddit

That and putting anything into user hands... it'll have a remove script faster than the news can report the tech shipped.

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huggarn@reddit

how many users? 0.01% tech savvy enough to root their devices? remaining 1% will infect their devices with whatever someone uploads for them to install and 98.99% will stick to default settings just as per usual

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Popular_Elderberry_3@reddit

Degoogled Android or Linux phone it is then.

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Capt_Picard1@reddit

Good. In fact let’s get rid of all encryption, passwords, firewalls, etc.

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vaspervnp@reddit

Chat control, as it is called, is part of CSAM. It is a regulatory effort to combat child sexual abuse. The part that includes preemptive check of all communications is undemocratic, totalitarian and plain crazy.

They believe that it is possible to check all images and links before sending, for content that falls into the CSAM category, and flag it for check by an EU authority. They even have technical specifications for the algorithm.

Computer Scientists and others have warned them that this will not work, on top of it being a privacy rights nightmare.

However, conservatives believe this is feasible. It has support from the likes of Orban, who is trying to pass it before his 6 month EU presidency lapses and who is an aspiring dictator. The Greek government (where I am from) also supports this. Not surprising, since the ruling party has a history with listening in to private communications and there was even a recent scandal involving the central intelligence agency (yeap.. we also call it CIA) listening into the communications of ministers, reporters, MEP and others.

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Able-Reference754@reddit

Intercepting communication is just thinking too small. Hook the open() (and the similar on other operating systems) syscall and scan files that are opened.

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6e1a08c8047143c6869@reddit

That is the idea. In the current draft any file selected through the Select Image, Access Gallery, Read Image, etc. would be automatically scanned, hashed and stored on OS-side. It would be completely transparent for the messaging app using it, so sideloading apps would not help.

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Able-Reference754@reddit

So wait, they're also looking to detect just regular "images or videos with sexual connotation" as they can be exchanged in grooming attempts?

Jesus christ.

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6e1a08c8047143c6869@reddit

Only if known CSAM is used in the attempt. The idea is to use perceptual hashing on the device side on any accessed images and compare these checksum with a database of known CSAM.

Of course once that system is in place it becomes increasingly hard to argue against opening the already existing mechanisms up for other crimes as well. How could you defend not using the already existing system to also help defend against terrorism, murder or other horrible crimes? Have you no heart? It would not even cost anything or take away any rights (that were not already taken away beforehand)!

This is one of these cases where the slippery slope is actually real. Child Sexual Abuse Material is merely the convenient first step because arguing against methods that supposedly protect children is a bad look.

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ElBougnat@reddit

You're perfectly right. In many countries, laws adopted to fight terrorism are now applied to ecological activism.

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Get_the_instructions@reddit

Of course once that system is in place it becomes increasingly hard to argue against opening the already existing mechanisms up for other crimes as well.

Give that AI can read normal text and deduce context and meaning (and will only get better), this becomes an irresistible attraction for all governments who wish to control the communications and thoughts of their populations (so basically all governments). Crime control is only the first ~~excuse~~ step.

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MilesSand@reddit

Except AI can't deduce meaning or context. It was never designed to. Using AI like this just turns it into a more complex statistical guesswork algorithm based on keywords and key-phrases.

Try asking for an image of a 3 legged stool or a man painting a mountain; or a list of ten words made up of three syllables. Or any other prompt with some degree of specificity and right and wrong answers.

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pt-guzzardo@reddit

(Windows Copilot) 3-legged stool: fail

(Windows Copilot) Man painting a mountain: success

(Claude 3.5 Sonnet) 10 words made up of three syllables: success

Here are ten words made of three syllables each:

Butterfly

Telephone

Elephant

Umbrella

Harmony

Cinnamon

Bicycle

Kangaroo

Delicate

Cucumber

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newsflashjackass@reddit

Next try asking it for a picture of doubt's shadow.

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monkeynator@reddit

Eh I feel that, that form of argumentation is always comically cynical.

The real worry is more that greyzone area political parties can use to influence or down right abuse to gain an advantage, think Poland during PIS being in charge literally doxing peaceful anti-pis protestors on national TV.

Just because you got say no laws against disclosing individuals, doesn't mean you should do it.

Same thing here, just instead imagine the easy way to 'claim' that the opposition party highly liked members just 'happens' to be suspected of CSAM and thus we should be allowed to do a thorough search and disclosure of the content these people have on their computers.

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Able-Reference754@reddit

(and will only get better)

Worse is better, that way they can gather data more broadly when things keep getting flagged as a false positive.

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72kdieuwjwbfuei626@reddit

Can you elaborate on these perceptual hashes of murders?

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6e1a08c8047143c6869@reddit

There can be incriminating files, pictures or videos of other crimes (or stuff the government doesn't approve of) as well? Be it propaganda videos of ISIS or a drug dealer sharing pictures of their new shipment. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

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72kdieuwjwbfuei626@reddit

Okay. I got my answer. You don’t know what a perceptual hash is.

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Firewolf06@reddit

its not a slippery slope, its wile e coyote before he looks down

it also sounds fairly easy to bypass with a bit of thinking and effort (i came up with three methods off the top of my head), so it will only be spying on average people, because anyone with anything to hide will hide it

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grepe@reddit

I was also thinking this is not so bad from your description... then it hit me that once this is in place who's gonna say other things won't get added to that database eventually. People beimg tagged if they send or view picture of particular person ot a meme...

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gnarlin@reddit

This is not a slippery slope. This is a cliff, because once the first step is taken the rest will all fall into place right quick.

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leafWhirlpool69@reddit

The idea is to use perceptual hashing on the device side on any accessed images and compare these checksum with a database of known CSAM.

possibly the dumbest idea I've ever heard

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Able-Reference754@reddit

Ah yeah I read

Grooming usually entails that at some stage of the “iter criminis” images or videos with sexual connotation are exchanged. Their detection would allow to capture a fairly large part of grooming attempts.

and kind of interpreted it in a vacuum. makes more sense.

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lezzmeister@reddit

Sending the wrong image or video on Discord or storing it on OneDrive is already an instant, even if innocent. They know they have false positives and on purpose refuse to filter them out because better safe than sorry.

Some EU countries already have databases used on every VPS or server (something that all hosting companies sign). Sometimes they mess up. They put the green list (known okay images) to also be red (instaan and report to cops). This is how I lost my VPS. They kept my money and never let me have my data. I can get it back and off the nono list if I sign an NDA and make no fuss. I refused.

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AntLive9218@reddit

"including services using E2EE"

One simple trick proprietary software apologists hate: E2EE is meaningless without a trusted platform, and "trust me bro" closed source locked down environments are just not good enough for private life needs.

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newsflashjackass@reddit

E2EE is meaningless without a trusted platform

could you elaborate on that?

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crafter2k@reddit

i call this a gigantic waste of processing power

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gvs77@reddit

I wonder where this will be forced on, Only mobile, only Apple and Scroogle? Or privacy OS's become illegal as well...

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Get_the_instructions@reddit

Hook the open() (and the similar on other operating systems) syscall and scan files that are opened.

Only possible on systems where the user does not have root access to their device, or the source code is closed. So all mobile devices, Android and Apple devices and Windows.

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ArdiMaster@reddit

Until they require some verification scheme in which your ISP doesn’t let you go online with devices that don’t have this.

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JonSnowAzorAhai@reddit

Or only allow sale of devices that have this verification scheme

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crazedizzled@reddit

Then the community will find some way to spoof it or work around it.

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mu-7@reddit

The community still can't migrate to lemmy/fediverse. Don't hold much hope there.

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Sammot123@reddit

Until they tivo-ize our hardware, allowing only signed operating systems to run, like some android phones and intel manegment engine.

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Able-Reference754@reddit

and until the corporations haven't managed to push "secure (from the user) computing" with strict signing requirements for even open kernels if they want to access services.

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metux-its@reddit

Just dont buy such crippled hardware.

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Sammot123@reddit

We don't have any choice, that's where they will get us. Open hardware does not exist, look at the intel management engine, it's impossible to replace with a FOSS alternative because of hardware signing. And with laws like this, eventually every piece of hardware will be tivo-ized.

The only way I could see the free software community fighting back against this is with more restrictive licensing, like GPLv2 vs GPLv3 with it's tivo-ization clause. But even then, we are mostly powerless over our machines.

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metux-its@reddit

Open hardware does not exist,

It does exist, just not very powerful yet.

And there's lots of ARM based HW where you can control everything from stage0 bootloader (no BIOS/UEFI at all). In embedded world, that's usually mandatory.

look at the intel management engine,

a) it can be castrated down to a level where it's not likely to cause much (invisible) damage b) there're lots of non-intel SoCs without such stuff.

And with laws like this, eventually every piece of hardware will be tivo-ized.

Such lawfare is certainly a danger to human kind, and we have to fight back, do everything we can to eliminate this EUSSR. Fortunately, the geopolitical situation doesn't look good for it's long-term survival (but we yet can't tell what comes after it).

The bigger plot is: we have a massive deep-state all over the world, trying to create some kind of high-tech neo-fascism, a global prison. For many dacades they've been staying in the dark, carefully engineering their spider's web. Fortunately, in recent years they became too arrogant and made huge mistakes. Meanwhile the air is getting thin for them, they're panicking and making even more mistakes, so their crimes slowly getting undenyable for even the naive and ignorant general public.

Don't ever give up. We the people are winning this. (and we have to - otherwise our grandchildren will be turned into The Borg).

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a-plastic-bags@reddit

Screw it, I'm buying a typewriter. Have fun locking that down, nerds!

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dpflug@reddit

Root no longer matters. Most systems in the past ~decade have had an entire OS included that we have little control over or insight into.

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Makefile_dot_in@reddit

i mean, it's not very hard to root an android device, and the kernel has to be open source, so it should be possible to avoid on android to (you'd probably have to replace your whole ROM though, with things like knox and what not).

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Irverter@reddit

it's not very hard to root an android device

That's true only for those that can be rooted. Others you simply can't, period.

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Makefile_dot_in@reddit

just because the manufacturer doesn't provide a blessed way of doing it does not make it impossible, you know. jailbreakers have been playing a cat-and-mouse game with apple for ages.

but yeah, i'll concede that it is usually pretty difficult. I haven't really tried to root a huge variety of android devices, and I'm not american, so I didn't really have a clear image of which manufacturers allow you to root your devices and I haven't been directly affected by it

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RaspberryPiBen@reddit

Some Android devices. US Samsung devices are pretty much impossible to root.

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Analog_Account@reddit

Wasn't there a thing where people were using software to put stuff on their image that "poisons" the AI? Is this the next phase for privacy?

I listened to a Defcon talk on youtube about creating a bunch of fake social profiles and having them generate a whole tone of content to obfuscate legitimate social profile usage. They called it digital Spartacus I think.

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CreatorGalvin@reddit

When I learned that Instagram was going to start using its users' content to train AI, I considered creating an account in which I would only post my cats' turds.

But maybe that idea was juvenile, so I did nothing.

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chaosgirl93@reddit

Yes, it's juvenile.

No, that is not a good reason not to do it. Cat turds tagged as something else sound like a hilarious way to poison AI.

Although, I am aware I have the sense of humour of a young boy, so I may not be well equipped to judge if toilet humour is juvenile.

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Analog_Account@reddit

I considered creating an account in which I would only post my cats' turds

As long as you tag and describe everything as stuff that isn't turds.

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CreatorGalvin@reddit

Yeah I thought about changing the metadata to include words like "cute", "cat", "kitty" and alike.

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chooselife1410@reddit

They want to do it again https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1fz6nh2/chat_control_20_again_tomorrow_and_10_10_2024/

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rileyrgham@reddit

It's for your "safety". They manufacture/encourage the dangers and then crack down on everyone else, it would be "unfair". It's directly from the dictator play book.

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KernelDeimos@reddit

Isn't the Chat Control thing supposed to be with hashes of bad phrases? I remember reading/hearing that somewhere. Still I can see a lot of issues with that, but if it's true I don't know how AI could be incorporated.

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whiphubley@reddit

see...brexit isn't all that bad after all :-)

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PwndiusPilatus@reddit

:D

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WinEunuuchs2Unix@reddit

Even google freaks out when I try to backup my work to my gmail.com account. They scan everything so I had to pkzip it with a password so they don't warn my backups might be dangerous. Now they warn my backups are encrypted. Moral of the story is Governments and Corporations don't like it if they can't read what you type. Honestly I don't care because everything I write is open source software. I just hate the roadblocks they erect to backing up written words. At one point I cared about being politically correct but now I don't care when I say 163 different genders is insane because there are only two.

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joborun@reddit

If the encryption/decryption is done within the environment of a corporate server (which they have in a silver platter anyway) and is done between "independent" servers (aka running your own mail/file server) then it is "of interest".

Those who trust encryption within google ms facebook x .. etc .. they are of no interest anyway ... too dumb to be a threat ...

The matrix will keep redrawing brick walls to every door and window we have, till it will be too late to realize the prison you are trapped into. Keep passing "public land" to green development corporations ... while you are busy with encryption!

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PuddingFeeling907@reddit

Keep your ai out of my chats

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Araumand@reddit

i have linux i am encrypted anyway

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Stariy-Gopnik@reddit

So what?

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kebman@reddit

It is for this reason I'm looking into dyamic distributre hash tables. I do this in order to achieve a decentralized chat application that is ofc also end-to-end encrypted.

The way it works is that all it's message relay-servers are actually just the client program used by other users, and it essentially works as a distributed hash table (DHT). This means that they're the one taking care of where the message should be routed, they take care of the load balancing, and due to forward security (it never stores metadata about its origin), it's not possible to trace the message at any point.

At best you can make a fake client, or monitor one client, and try to understand what traffic is actually a message, since all traffic is encapsulated in an equal size encrypted packet. Essentially all data, messages or not, look like noise.

I think you should look into technology like this too!

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W-a-n-d-e-r-e-r@reddit

That's not a race about who can fuck up EU the most.

This piece of shit Zensursula (for the non German speakers its a mix between Zensur [censor] and Ursula) von der Leyen needs to be kicked out asap.

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SitaroArtworks@reddit

I totally agree with you.

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Mal_Dun@reddit

Changing the head won't do squits as long as people vote for the EVP. Conservatives across Europe try this since the internet is a thing. Someone remembers ACTA? Pepperidge farms remembers....

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Nelo999@reddit

This was a Libtard law being introduced by a Social Democrat MEP from Sweden.

The Socialists are also in full support.

Secondly, the EU parliament also tried to ban "Sex Work" again a while back.

And guess who were some of the biggest backers of such laws?

The SPD of Germany as well as other Socialist MEP's.

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vesterlay@reddit

Isn't she just the president. Don't such decisions go through a vote?

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nelmaloc@reddit

Yes, and Parliament has already disapproved.

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daniel-sousa-me@reddit

She is the president of the commission. These kinds of things need to be voted on the parliament.

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Wally__666@reddit

It is not only Flintenuschi (Rifle Uschi; from the time she was german minster of defense). It is the whole pack of undemocratic d*mba**es in Brussels.

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metux-its@reddit

Meanwhile we call her Flintenuschi (Flinte = rifle)

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AntLive9218@reddit

It's quite in line with the generic direction though, and such large scale issues can't be blamed on a single person, not even just a handful of them.

If it's so easy to against the best interest of the majority of the people, then the system is just simply flawed, but then the people not having a say in the matter to begin with is a quite clear indication of that.

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Alert-Drive-7546@reddit

Really You Noobs?

As if did not started in US !?! Forgot Snowden?

But EU bashing?

you are fucked right before your eyes, and the EU sucks US-Penis, so what the fuck did you think it would happen?

Sure you though freedom paradise!?! In God we trustED or so?

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FarmerWithATractor@reddit

Move out of Europe, I've heard that India is still reasonably ok.

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delboy85341@reddit

Governments hate people being free. Governments want to control everything. Sometimes people rebel and set up a government that allows some freedom for the people. Once this is done, government instantly starts trying to figure ways to restrict the new freedoms.

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delboy85341@reddit

Of course they do. They don't want others to find out about their bribe taking, influence peddling, drug dealing, child sexual exploitation or whatever other crap they're involved in.

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Accomplished_Tale996@reddit

The right to be left alone will only be found in places far faaaar away from civilisation unfortunately.

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Accomplished_Tale996@reddit

They want to identify and risk-rate every single citizen on the planet across different categories. They want to especially find out who is not a fan of big government, global institutions, global agendas etc it’s largely not about crime. It’s about the system moving toward a totalitarian global government masquerading as something else. It’s mind-boggling that so many people still have their heads in the sand. Voting doesn’t seem to help either as any party that wants to change any of this would be stopped anyway. Parties that look partially appealing in some countries are likely controlled-opposition and another means to identify and blacklist more individuals that are a risk to the emerging autocratic global governance model.

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delboy85341@reddit

I'm not surprised. They locked up the big cheese at Telegram. I hear he's out on bail, but he's not supposed to leave the country. I hear the French are accusing him of crimes related to drug smuggling, human trafficing, and so on. I get the impression they're mad at him because he won't create a back door into Telegram for them. So they're saying since you won't give us a back door, we're going to accuse you of aiding these criminals.

There are any number of ways a back door could be abused. Suppose an opposition candidate for some high office in the land is doing better in the polls than the incumbent. A corrupt leader could use the back door to spy on the opposition. Say a cop is mad at his wife for leaving him. He cold use a back door to find out where she is then show up and do something illegal such as planting drugs in her home or car, or killing her. Then there's the fact that sooner or later some criminal organization will be discover how to use the back door for their purposes.

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leaflock7@reddit

hmm China , ehm, I meant to say EU starts to to look quite the dystopian dictatorship for citizens.
I said it before, they give with the hand over the table , but they take with the hand under the table.

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Lux_JoeStar@reddit

Good luck cracking my AES 256.

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redballooon@reddit

Again? Sigh! These people don’t get tired. Every time we say no they’ll just pull out the next surveillance bill. This has been going on for as long as I can remember, and before that there was no European Union.

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AndrewZabar@reddit

All kinds of shit like this happens in all democratic nations. They are patient and persistent and determined. They’ll do it again and again with no end.

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cyb3rfunk@reddit

And it only takes one time where a significant legislative body cracks and it becomes permanent.

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AndrewZabar@reddit

Yurp. Just the right amount of payoff it’s only a matter of time. That’s why people should give a shit more than they do in general.

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linmanfu@reddit

The OP is really a bit misleading. It says "the EU" is trying to restrict encryption, but according to the linked statement, the European Parliament has already rejected it. If anything, that means "the EU" is against it. The statement claims that some countries' governments have a new proposal, but doesn't name them.

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B3_Kind_R3wind_@reddit (OP)

More info about this from a different source:

The Belgian EU Council presidency seems set to have bulk Chat Control searches of our private communications greenlighted by EU governments on Wednesday 19 Thursday 20 June. This confirms concerns that the proponents of Chat Control intend to exploit the period shortly after the European Elections during which there is less public attention and the new European Parliament is not yet constituted. If Chat Control is endorsed by Council now, experience shows there is a great risk it will be adopted at the end of the political process.

The good news is that many EU governments have not yet decided whether to go along with this final Belgian push for Chat Control mass surveillance, among them

Italy,
Finland,
the Czech Republic,
Sweden,
Slovenia,
Estonia,
Greece and
Portugal.

Only Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Austria and Poland are relatively clear that they will not support the proposal, but this is not sufficient for a “blocking minority”.

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Iseja00@reddit

Sweden just changed their stance (and is also the ones who made the proposal to begin with) to being in favour of the new modified proposal. Only 2 parties in the swedish Parliament is agaisnt it now.

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lordoftheclings@reddit

From what to what?

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Iseja00@reddit

From mostly negative or neutral to positive, depending on which party you asked.

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lordoftheclings@reddit

What is the Sweden Democrats' position?

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Iseja00@reddit

Their official position is uncertain but the two in the EU parliament is against it.

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lordoftheclings@reddit

That's good - re: the 2 in the EU parliament. Anyone who supports it should be shunned.

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Iseja00@reddit

When speaking to other Swedes they either don't care or see this as a good thing so don't have your hopes up to much about shunning the other ones.

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linmanfu@reddit

This source also confirms that the actions suggested in the OP (contacting representatives in Brussels) are useless. The proposal is being considered by Permanent Representatives en route to the Council of Ministers. So EU citizens need to contact the legislators and ministers in their own capitals, not their "reps in Brussels" who have little power to make policy at this stage.

I also disagree with Mr Berger's analysis saying that this is being pushed through now to "exploit the period" after the elections. The new Commission has to survive a series of live-or-die appointment votes in the next few months and the Belgian government has only just been formed. It's about the worst possible time for them to try to get such a stupid and contentious policy adopted, because the Commission and Council have less capacity for lobbying. So there's no need to panic.

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AntLive9218@reddit

EU citizens need to contact the legislators and ministers in their own capitals, not their "reps in Brussels" who have little power to make policy at this stage

Did those "representatives" have a say earlier and they already blessed this, or are they actually powerless to represent the people in such a matter even if they wanted to?

Whichever the case is, I can't wait for the glorious future when "democracy" will just mean something like voting for how should a politician look like so some AI software could use that face whenever the dictator is shown in digital media, not like peasants would be allowed to see his majesty in person anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for anarchy or anything like that, but at this point I'd conclude that what we have failed some time ago. Picking the best liar every 4-5 years then hoping for the best is not democracy, no matter how much sugar is used to coat it. And the EU looks especially bad at it because it tries really hard to sugarcoat such issues, while with the fragmentation of region they are really not good at even pretending to understand the needs of all cultures.

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linmanfu@reddit

Did those "representatives" have a say earlier and they already blessed this, or are they actually powerless to represent the people in such a matter even if they wanted to?

Permanent Representatives in Brussels are something like an ambassador or the staff of the delegations to the Bundesrat (Federal Council) in Germany. Their job is to follow the instructions of their home government. If you want the Saxon government to vote a certain way in the Bundesrat, you need to write to your legislator in the Saxon Landtag (state parliament), not Berlin. If an ambassador disobeyed the instructions of their home government because of their personal opinion (even if it was based on letters from citizens), that is *un*democratic.

Again, you seem to have assumptions brought over from some other system. In Washington, senators are directly elected, but that's not the only way to do things. The EU system is different from the US, but it's still democratic.

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metux-its@reddit

Perhaps we should just break apart from it.

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Gro-Tsen@reddit

The outgoing European Parliament has rejected a past version of the proposal. This is indeed good news but in no way does it mean that we are out of the woods: the European Parliament has just been reelected (and I'm afraid the Pirate Party is now down to a single seat, from the Czech Republic), and the proposal has been altered in small ways which don't make it substantially less disastrous but might make it seem more acceptable to some lawmakers.

However, I agree that we shouldn't say “the EU” wants to do this or that: the EU Commission and some members of the EU Council (i.e., EU member states) want this — what Parliament wants is yet to be determined.

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Afraid_Avocado_2767@reddit

I know this is a serious topic, however…

The Pirate Party

Seems fun 🦜🏴‍☠️🎉🎊

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Gro-Tsen@reddit

Sadly, the fact that they have a silly sounding name may be one of the reasons they are not at all taken seriously in many countries.

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metux-its@reddit

The EP doesnt have own legislative power. The commission (executive) has. EUSSR isn't a democracy. It's fascism. In the long run, we the people, have no other choice than exterminating it. Its a major threat to mankind as such.

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lordoftheclings@reddit

Politicians are always trying to control you - invade your privacy - control what you do - see what you do - and they decide what you are allowed and not allowed to do.

They are evil - they need to base their controls on some sort of 'humanitarian' concept though - fighting child abuse - they chose for this - in order to justify it to the masses.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/19/24181214/eu-chat-control-law-propose-scanning-encrypted-messages-csam

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codeasm@reddit

German ans dutch hackerscene wont allow this. Others probably neither. It wont fly europe

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VasyanMosyan@reddit

Oh naive, naive child

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codeasm@reddit

Bro, im in the scene. We dont allow this crap. We fight in european courts against this.

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BetTall2589@reddit

Ai is too much

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commodore512@reddit

You know when politics of my country is on here, people hate it and complain and don't want to see it.

I'll respond in a way they respond to my country.

"I'm so sick of European Politics, you dumb Europeans can't even switch to the Metric System, you Brits didn't use decimal money until 50 years ago. (I know Brexit, but still) You Brits still use Pints and Miles and the French that invented the Metric System doesn't use Metric Time and have no patience for normal everyday people who aren't scientists struggling with metric because the culture around them doesn't facilitate it even if they're open to it."

Satire Over

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Nurpo_Venture@reddit

This is just a violation of privacy, but the privacy rabbit hole it's very deep. I use Brave instead of Google and Chrome, and I have plans of changing my email to something else more private, not like Gmail or Outlook.

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Far_Number_@reddit

Can Linux protect you from NPU? Isn’t every NPU scanning and analyzing data before encryption no matter the model of chip (for example even A11 Bionic can do it) or the OS ? Isn’t the data analysis built in on the hardware level which makes it pointless to change OS?

[-]

cfs3corsair@reddit

Hey. As Tuta noted:

Anyone looking to take action and stand up against mass surveillance can learn more here: Council to greenlight Chat Control – Take action now! – Patrick Breyer 21

https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/council-to-greenlight-chat-control-take-action-now/

The vote has been postponed until Thursday. Let’s be loud, keep up the momentum, and together we can stop Chat Control!

[-]

AndrewZabar@reddit

Anyone looking to take action*

In five years we’ll celebrate when the first hundred people have signed up! Yay! /s

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Extreme-Ad-9290@reddit

Wow. so much for ***** you Nvidia. More like ***** you EU

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Unslaadahsil@reddit

Unfortunately I live in Switzerland so we don't have a reps in Brussels.

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CodeMurmurer@reddit

So what can i do?

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mxmissile@reddit

Riot.

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FrederikSchack@reddit

The EU dictators have really dropped the veil haven't they? But anyways, who to trust? What to trust? I don't trust Signal.....

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ElizabethThomas44@reddit

Before AI projects that screw common people are implemented. we need to implement 4 major projects

Corruption Catcher AI Project:

This projects will analyze all the data of all people whose assets is more than a million usd across every country and also that of every elected mayor, minister, prime minister, president of every country.

90 percent of the major corruptions happen in people who have high wealth (hence minimum 1 million usd threshold) and politicians (no threshold)

Mis-mis-information Flagger AI Project:

Twitter and FB were caught for using fake reasons and flagging genuine content and mis information. Hence all such decision, the source data based on which those decisions were made, need to re-analyzed and flag for wrong findings. And all social media should pay penalty of USD 10k per mistake, and this money should be deposited to that social media platform's regular users bank account. Since common people were not allowed to see that info in time.

Wealthy people History Analyzer AI Project:

Every body whose assets is 1 million $ or more, needs to submit all their historical data - assets, cash flows, taxes, children school fees paid etc. And AI should flag illegal transaction.

AI Regulator Leaders Transparency AI Project

Any body who gets to decide how AI should evolve should share all their present and past emails. whatsapp, telegram, assets, bank account data for analysis. If any person might use his leadership influence for personal gains, that person should be banned from influencing AI for 20 years

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yoroxid_@reddit

where's the source of this?

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MustangBarry@reddit

I'm not in the EU. 🇬🇧

I use Telegram 🇷🇺

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draoi28@reddit

Signal is better.

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MustangBarry@reddit

Can't send 2GB files over Signal

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newsflashjackass@reddit

"Can't pound nails with a featherduster."

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MustangBarry@reddit

I trust them more than I trust the Americans, mate.

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newsflashjackass@reddit

cry key

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

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MustangBarry@reddit

Nice completely urelated and irrelevant link, thanks. I see you learned the words 'logical fallacy' this week.

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gmes78@reddit

Who cares?

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draoi28@reddit

For normal messaging Signal is more secure than Telegram.

[-]

MustangBarry@reddit

I don't doubt it, but it's not a replacement for Telegram any more than SMS is a replacement for WhatsApp. They serve different purposes

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draoi28@reddit

I use them all, but Signal is my favorite.

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draoi28@reddit

Telegram doesn't even enable E2EE by default.

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newsflashjackass@reddit

Session is a Signal fork that does not rely on central servers or require users to provide a valid phone number.

https://getsession.org/

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zeanox@reddit

The impact will be felt outside of the EU as well.

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MustangBarry@reddit

Yeah I was being flippant. The EU over-reaching with its powers is the only basis upon which I sympathise somewhat with the otherwise catastrophic Brexit vote. Protect your citizens, sure, but never at the expense of privacy. That's a slippery slope with no bottom.

[-]

zeanox@reddit

Just to clarify im fully against the proposal.

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kapitaali_com@reddit

well it's not any less insane than Microsoft screenshotting your desktop every 1 seconds

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DJGloegg@reddit

At least i can disable it

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newsflashjackass@reddit

I bet you call it "the Intel Manageability Engine" too.

[-]

natermer@reddit

The difference is that when Microsoft makes idiotic decisions people can tell Microsoft to go fuck themselves and use something else. Microsoft's ability to make money is then impacted.

It doesn't work that way when dealing with governments. You are required to obey and keep giving them money no matter how stupid they are.

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Julian_1_2_3_4_5@reddit

well microsoft has been abusing it's monopoly for years now :/ And well here you can at least switch to linux, this proposal would make using software that doesn't allow it illegal

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chaosgirl93@reddit

At least with that, you can most likely choose to not use Windows. Or at least not use it except for the handful of Windows only proprietary software you can't not use.

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JackDostoevsky@reddit

is it an unpopular opinion to believe that you shouldn't use any sort of End to End encryption that is susceptible to AI-based attacks, especially the kind of inept work done by government? I have a lot of trust in Signal and I assume they'll be able to defend against any such attempts.

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Impys@reddit

The problem is not that e2e is vulnerable to ai-based attacks. The problem is that proposals like this circumvents e2e by legislating the installation of spyware on the device.

And they get to pretend it is "privacy friendly" by having a first check done on-device by ai.

[-]

Fnordinger@reddit

The proposal is to make it mandatory to scan the content before it is encrypted. So there won’t really be a legal way around the scanning and no encryption has to be hacked.

[-]

FierceDispersion@reddit

Signal and Threema have announced they would end their services in the EU if forced to implement the proposed automated monitoring (so-called “client-side scanning”).

Source: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-politicians-industry-raise-alarm-over-eus-unprecedented-messenger-surveillance-plans/

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pds314@reddit

Can your proposal be easily defeated with cheat engine or by forking a project and deleting the contraband database while fundamentally damaging online privacy? Then it is a bad proposal.

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atticus-fetch@reddit

I'm sure it's being done in the name of freedom for all.

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Monsieur2968@reddit

I don't get how they think they can enforce this... 30 years ago sure, but nowadays?

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dedseqBash@reddit

So they want to have access to your crap but they don't want to be ruled by the same law? LOL

there is no in between

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fossfan83@reddit

This does not look great. EU should be force for good, not bad!

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ODByall@reddit

I heard ages ago wikr was compromised NSA using that =/ this seems like a sad time

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ODByall@reddit

yeah we definitely a war at this point =/

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ravenous_fringe@reddit

This what Europe is. Those "fundamental concepts of privacy" are principles of the American constitution and culture. No citizen of the EU can expect their elected representatives to have any notion of how important privacy is.

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metux-its@reddit

Lets employ AI to eliminate the EUSSR. Parasites that are just plunging us anyways.

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jr735@reddit

Phil Zimmerman said over 20 years ago that all email (at least where feasible) should be encrypted, so as to make plans like this (which have come about time and again) a lot less workable.

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arkane-linux@reddit

This is almost undoable from a technical perspective, and "AI" is not going to change this.

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Powerful_Peace_4062@reddit

WTF!

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CryptoSaffa@reddit

The EU is the enemy of true Europeans and of humanity as a whole.

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SnooHamsters5248@reddit

LOL 95% of people use Window, android, or iOS regularly. Like it or not everything most people say and do is going to be logged in one way or another. We all know they will take and upload screen shots and key logs of everything you do. I guess if you want to switch to some sort of Lora or similar network, fine but accept that digital privacy is dead for most humans.

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Swedish_Luigi_16@reddit

I was starting to think that the EU was better than the US in regards to data collection laws, but this..

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ParticularIcy8705@reddit

Remember Russia and China are the bad guys tho

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Linneris@reddit

Russia is much worse.

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ParticularIcy8705@reddit

Thats what the same people who are stealing your data told you.

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Linneris@reddit

I come from Russia. I know what I'm talking about.

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ParticularIcy8705@reddit

Everyone is allowed an opinion. Sir, this is the internet.

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a-plastic-bags@reddit

And conversely, everyone is allowed to disagree with you. No one here has stopped you from having this opinion, they've only pointed out how nonsensical it is.

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ParticularIcy8705@reddit

And you *think* that, that is the case in Russia. Now go Google 'Protests Russia'

Try and *think* for yourself instead of just consooming what the tv dictates to you.

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gmes78@reddit

Are you really saying that the Russia who wanted every citizen to install a root TLS certificate so they could man-in-the-middle every HTTPS connection respects your privacy?

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Death-by-Fugu@reddit

Go figure that enabling a gigantic block of right wing lunatics by granting them status as MPs would curtail the rights of citizens. Whodathunkit?

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Sammot123@reddit

This doesn't seem to be partisan, it's authoritarian

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tldrthestoryofmylife@reddit

Just develop stronger cryptography and make it harder for em

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Sammot123@reddit

Key escrows, look them up

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Sinaaaa@reddit

The legislation wants to sidestep encryption altogether, please read the article.

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cipricusss@reddit

And ALSO go to vote against authoritarian politicians. As long as democracy and the rule of law stand, we don't have to fear our governments. When we lose democracy because of peoples' depoliticization it is too late to try to save our privacy. The two go together.

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denniot@reddit

EU loves invading privacy nowadays. There are political parties that claim they are going to respect the privacy and freedom, but they are usually considered extreme right wing.
I don't think no matter how hard they try, they can decrypt my gpg encrypted emails though. I'd love to be proven wrong.

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WeedlnlBeer@reddit

Wouldn't this only work on centralized apps like axcrypt. Can't regulate deregulated apps

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IHaveTwoOfYou@reddit

The AI will be too stupid to really decrypt anything anyways

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Coammanderdata@reddit

I don't know if we should scan user data, but if they absolutely have to, they should be using privacy preserving methods like Fully Homomorphic Encryption to keep end to end encryption, but also analyse the data.

If we would apply a neural network on the encrypted data packet sent by one user, the recipient would receive the data packet, and an encrypted output of the neural network. If this would indicate to contain CSAM material, the chat client could sensor the message. The data packet would still only be visible to the end users, preserving end to end encryption, since thanks to FHE the data would not be decrypted during the processing

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Coammanderdata@reddit

It was not passed, fortunately

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Zettinator@reddit

It's always the same idiots that try to push for these kinds of surveillance legislation. This has been going on for over a decade... even if the current "chat control" proposal fails, we still need to be watchful, they will try again.

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teamredpill@reddit

rules for the peasants not for the tribal elites.

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OldLack8614@reddit

The internet was intended to be free and anonymous, but ended up being nothing but a method of control. It gave governments the means to implement total surveillance. Then, AI has made it a million times worse

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j0e74@reddit

Control for the masses. Soon it will be "illegal" to protect your privacy.

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AnonNetUser@reddit

And how much will this cost EU citizens? How will this be paid for? EU bureaucracy is already pathologically overgrown to grotesque levels.

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temmiesayshoi@reddit

Wow, its almost like when you give politicians the right to legislate your devices, they're going to legislate your devices!

"I want my iPhone to have USB!" and the monkey's paw curled.

Let this serve as yet another reminder why you don't cut through the law to get at the devil.

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Desperate-Bag-6543@reddit

WE MUST PROTEST!!!! this is absolutely wrong, talk about freedom and privacy

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Metalpen22@reddit

I am skeptical about that. Since the right wing parties win so much, I don't expect to get our own freedom now.

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Julian_1_2_3_4_5@reddit

https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ I know why i choose the pirate party

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Bombini_Bombus@reddit

I absolutely agree, as long as these three conditions are strictly respected: - everyone and anyone is under control - there's an open list of the reports where anyone and everyone can freely have access to anytime - reports are devoid of any information, except for the mere content of the communication itself

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Sinaaaa@reddit

You have really not thought this through.

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GentleDomFanatic@reddit

I'm kinda convinced by this point the people lobbying oh wait I mean "sponsoring" this type of legislation not just in the EU but around the world want to make using technology so terrible and unsafe that it would send us back to the dark ages, people would just not bother with it anymore and start writing letters with pen and paper again.

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WhyEveryUnameIsTaken@reddit

Thanks for raising the attention!!

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monkeynator@reddit

The messed up part is that not even China/Russia has this kind of draconian technology afaik, there's been rumors of it but not sufficient evidence to show that to be the case.

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Raunien@reddit

Meanwhile, they blocked plans by Facebook to use user data from inside the EU to train AI. The EU giveth, the EU taketh away.

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metux-its@reddit

This yet another attack on human rights is just another coffin nail for the EUSSR.

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dark-lord90@reddit

Finally, maybe now people will start seeing the true evil of unelected bureaucrats controlling their life. If I have to bet, nothing will happen and that law will be implemented.

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yonasismad@reddit

No, they won't. It's summer in Europe and there's a big football tournament going on, which means people are out getting drunk and paying even less attention than usual. Governments are notorious for using this time to push through controversial laws and other stupid projects.

My only hope now is that a EU court will strike this initiative down.

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dark-lord90@reddit

And if they don’t? We will find a way.

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shodan5000@reddit

"Representatives"

Lmao

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daniel-sousa-me@reddit

Have you ever tried contacting them? They do actually answer and talk with you

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ric2b@reddit

I actually did, a few weeks ago. No reply yet.

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Victor_Quebec@reddit

Years (or maybe months) will pass and Europeans (and Westerners in general) will hopefully understand the negative consequences of their own harmful propaganda of liberal values, that Russia was not bad at all, and will start packing suitcases to move to... Russia or another country, where the human dignity (not negative freedoms) and indiscriminate relations, respect for elders and family values, and the true love of God are preserved in almost entirety.

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xternal7@reddit

Russia [...] where the human dignity [...] are preserved in almost entirety.

lol

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Jeoshua@reddit

If anyone is going to be able to rein in the rampant overuse of AI and invasions of privacy, it's the EU. It's happened before. I would call and harrass some reps myself, but I'm a "dirty American" so I don't get a say. But I will say the EU often does what the US cannot in these matters, and urge you all to listen to OP and not to sleep on this.

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AlexandruFredward@reddit

Just because you;re an American doesn't mean you cannot contact these politicians and complain. As soon as you access a European server, you are their victim. This not an isolated incident. This will impact the entire world.

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wideace99@reddit

Democracy has died long time ago... we just have idiocracy.

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jman6495@reddit

Parliament has voted against this, you need to contact your member state's government about this.

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tukanoid@reddit

We turning into Russia or what?

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ManicChad@reddit

We had this problem with Apple. Nobody talks about bad actors sending this material to regular folks to have them falsely arrested or bribed etc. There’s too much potential for abuse. They’ll literally say well you received it so you must be an abuser and turn your life inside out before they figure out some groups are abusing the system for this exact result.

This. Instead of police doing actual work to find creeps.

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xmBQWugdxjaA@reddit

We don't get a vote. The EU isn't democratic, it's like China where Von der Leyen is just chosen internally.

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linmanfu@reddit

This is just flat wrong; the European Parliament was elected last week and must approve the new Commission.

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xmBQWugdxjaA@reddit

But only the Commission proposes the acts, not the Parliament.

So it's mostly a joke, that's why the countries elect joke politicians, or "promote" unwanted politicians there (like von der Leyen herself).

The Commission will be rubber-stamped by Parliament, as the EPP is the biggest group by far, and this Act likely will be too.

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linmanfu@reddit

The Commission will be rubber-stamped by Parliament, as the EPP is the biggest group by far,

So the party that won the election will lead the government. That's democracy.

and this Act likely will be too.

The linked statement says that encryption was rejected by the last European Parliament. So on the specific example that you chose, they've already proved that they're not a rubber-stamp.

But only the Commission proposes the acts, not the Parliament.

This is common in Westminster systems. It's not how things are done in the USA, but democracy wasn't invented there and Europeans can do things differently.

So it's mostly a joke, that's why the countries elect joke politicians, or "promote" unwanted politicians there (like von der Leyen herself).

I agree that the European elections often are not taken seriously enough, but a large cause of that is that too many people believe the myths that you are repeating here. Democracy does require people to vote wisely. You're entitled to dislike Ms Von der Leyen, but her party won.

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xmBQWugdxjaA@reddit

I'm not American, I live in Europe - everyone here knows it's a joke. Most countries have turnouts barely above 20% for the European parliament.

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QutanAste@reddit

What ? What is your source on this, turnout is higher than 50% in average with only a handful of country being "barely above 20%"

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zeanox@reddit

what a bullshit statement to throw out. the president of the European commission is chosen by the European council, that is made up be democratically elected leaders from the member states. Then the president has to be approved by the the European parlament, which is directly chosen by the EU citizens.

Von der Leyen is not "chosen internally" what ever that means.

Please tell me again how it's just like china?

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xmBQWugdxjaA@reddit

It's very similar - the Council is similar to China's Politburo, and the Parliament to their National Congress.

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zeanox@reddit

explain?

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BppnfvbanyOnxre@reddit

If you're in the EU you get to vote for your MEP, harrang them.

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RudePragmatist@reddit

I don’t care if they know I use encryption. If we al use it then they wont have enough resources to watch all of us in an old school fashion. Which would be their only recourse.

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FatStoic@reddit

With AI they can.

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jabedude@reddit

The EUs main export are inane regulations

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HotRepresentative325@reddit

Don't worry about this sort of thing, it never makes into law. A few years ago, the UK government wanted to ban the encryption of messages.

[-]

gvs77@reddit

'Our' reps in Brussels are exactly the problem. You could see this coming from miles away and the further politicians are removed from the people, the more evil they get.

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Outrageous_Trade_303@reddit

It can't be implemented and work in practice, although it would be fun to see EU imposing a backdoor in microsoft's 365 communications. How long do you think it will take for that backdoor to be discovered and what do you think will follow? It would be fun to watch! In the mean time I guess that the foss world will implement plugins in order to have communications pre encrypted using gpg or any other tool before the message reaches any platform :)

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QutanAste@reddit

man imagine the field day hackers would get

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Solid_Lettuce3367@reddit

“call and harass your reps”

Man this is europe. If anything they will call and harass you.