Linux on new ARM devices. Will it work?

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linux-ModTeam@reddit

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durdann@reddit

This is pretty exciting to me. I’ve dabbled in Linux over the years, but always ended up coming back to windows because to be honest it was just easy and works without any effort. My main desktop runs windows 11, but my laptops are macs. My favourite being my M1 Pro, and a few less and less used older intel ones. Since using an m1 Mac, or ‘Arm based’ laptop, I simply cannot go back to the heat, noise and lack of power efficiency of an X86 system in a laptop / portable. I do like my M1 Mac - a lot, but yet I sit here typing this on an iPad Pro - apparently with the same M1 based chip as my MacBook, and though I also ‘like’ my iPad, it’s actually infuriatingly useless because of ‘iPad OS’ why can’t I run vs code and at least do some fully fledged web development on this thing? Apple - you are pushing me away. Stop making MacOS more like iPad OS, and make iPad Os more like macOS! Then along come Microsoft who want to introduce some arm based laptops because - well, I can only imagine it’s because they’ve used an arm based Mac and know it’s only a matter of time before windows laptops are forgotten - and yet, at the same time, Windows wants to become more and more dystopian and malware like. Ughhh. The upcoming updates to Windows have pushed me into looking at Linux once again. Linux seems to have come a long way since I last tried running Ubuntu / mint, and I am going to see if I can run it on my desktop and replace Windows. I actually have a Lenovo legion go, and without really even thinking that I was “ditching windows for Linux” one of the first things I did was install BazziteOS on it, and it’s fantastic. I would really like a nice piece of hardware like my MacBook, but which runs Linux, and correct me if I’m wrong, but there just doesn’t seem to be anything which can suitably compete at the moment - I’ve seen a bit about asahi, which I could potentially install on my Mac, but it just sounds like it’s a compromise - largely because it’s still apple hardware and of course it means there will just be annoying apple things in the way. I’ve also seen the Lenovo X13s, which looks promising, but ultimately I am very excited for what the near future may bring, and I also feel that I won’t be the only one - is Linux potentially set to see a marked increase in popularity?

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tajetaje@reddit

On the M1 Pro the following is unsupported by asahi (for now): Thunderbolt, DP alt mode, microphones, fingerprint sensor, and hw accelerated video decode/encode. However Asahi is also yet to complete their Vulkan driver meaning no DXVK or VKD3D for proton, and their OpenGL driver still needs work. Altogether some pretty impressive reverse engineering IMO, but yeah not done yet. See the following for more info: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/M1-Series-Feature-Support https://asahilinux.org/2022/12/gpu-drivers-now-in-asahi-linux/

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durdann@reddit

Thank you

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tajetaje@reddit

Ok, about Vulkan? This just happened today: https://rosenzweig.io/blog/vk13-on-the-m1-in-1-month.html Apparently it’s closer than I thought

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durdann@reddit

I'd hate to break my current set up, but I feel I might have to so I can give this a try

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tajetaje@reddit

Yeah it looks like a pretty cool project, personally I’d wait for Vulkan to actually hit the repos if you want any games more advanced than supertuxcart

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MentalUproar@reddit

Yes.....eventually. Linux has been running on ARM for years already. But the particular usage of ARM has some bits and pieces that developers haven't seen before. Qualcomm has committed to supporting linux but that doesn't really mean anything unless we actually see results. Remember, the surface pro X still doesn't properly run linux and it's been around for a while. So how is this time different? There is an enormous, multi-brand push for ARM this summer. Intel has been disappointing for quite a while now and not everyone needs all the power that AMD provides. It's all centered around these snapdragon elite and plus chips. So many brands using the same chips means it's more likely to get developer support. We've seen what ARM can do on phones, tablets, the Nintendo switch, Macs and now the PC market is behind. They NEED ARM to succeed this time.

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lightmatter501@reddit

Arch, no because arch doesn’t support ARM very well. Almost all popular distros other than Arch? They’ve been read for a decade.

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MentalUproar@reddit

archlinuxarm would like to have a word

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Potential_Penalty_31@reddit

Why?

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lightmatter501@reddit

Arch for ARM isn’t support by the Arch community proper. For all other major distros ARM is part of their main offerings. As for why they’ve been ready for so long, Linux is the home OS for ARM. Windows on ARM exists because MS was afraid of getting left behind.

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conan--aquilonian@reddit (OP)

What about apps? Would everyday apps like LibreOffice be able to run on ARM Linux? Or would most of the soft need to be rewritten?

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lightmatter501@reddit

Most old open source software only needs a recompile because it was designed to handle far larger differences than x86 -> arm, like DEC ALPHA -> Itanium. A lot of newer stuff is arch agnostic. Most of the problem for window is that there is 20 years of abandonware which people depend on. Linux doesn’t really have that issue, most software is actively maintained.

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torsten_dev@reddit

IA-64 is such a maddening arch.

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sxRTrmdDV6BmzjCxM88f@reddit

Out of curiosity, why do you say that? Have you worked with it?

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skuterpikk@reddit

The idea behind it is good, but poorly executed. The IA-64 processors are "dumb" - they lack (or very limited) a lot of features one would take for granted on other instruction sets, so they doesn't do as much internal work automatically and transparent to the operating system, but rather focus on raw computing power and throughput. In simple terms, this means that they are very difficult to program properly, as the programmer and compiler have to micro-manage several things that other processors does automatically. In theory, this makes software run faster (which is does, when optimized properly) but no compilers exist that are able to properly optimize code to take full advantage of the processor when things like memory management and branch prediction are left to the compiler, or manually writing asembly code. Similar to the fate of the PS3, powerfull on paper, but a terrible processor that was exceptionally hard to program made the "compute units" basically useless for programmers, leaving them with a single-core PowerPC-970, while the xbox had a triple core running at the same clock speed so most games looked bad on the ps3 compared to the 360.

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tajetaje@reddit

Hell a good chunk of windows software is still 32 bit

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IverCoder@reddit

All open source apps can run and will run, as most of them already publish ARM64 builds on Flathub and distro repos. For those who don't publish ARM64 yet, it's very trivial to recompile them to ARM64 with no code changes. In fact, it's standard practice for Flathub and distro repos to compile open source apps on many more architectures that the developers do not officially publish for. As for closed-source apps, you can wait for the publishers to make an ARM64 build. Alternatively, Flathub can be configured to integrate with QEMU emulation nicely to run x86_64 app on an ARM64 device with a of performance regression.

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xtifr@reddit

Most standard Linux apps have run on Arm for years! LibreOffice has slightly less cross-platform support than most, but it is well supported on both 32- & 64-bit Arm.

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ranixon@reddit

You can install.a full distro with KDE and Libre office in a Raspberry Pi since a lot of time.

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jaykayenn@reddit

Software will run on whatever it's been made to run on. Libre and many other software already exist for ARM. If not, ask the developers. Mainstream Snapdragon laptops are barely out the door. Chill.

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darth_chewbacca@reddit

Mark my words, A derivative of ArchARM will be one of the first distributions available for these new devices.

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TryHardEggplant@reddit

Would you call it aArch64? I'll see myself out.

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real_jeeger@reddit

I actually have a Linux ARM device running ARM -- on danctnix, which is a modified Arch.

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Recent_Computer_9951@reddit

It already works. So if the device doesn't come with a locked bootloader you'll probably be able to install whatever arm64 distro or OS you want.

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conan--aquilonian@reddit (OP)

how about steam/proton? will proton still be able to work on arm processors?

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Recent_Computer_9951@reddit

On arm64 Proton would require https://github.com/ptitSeb/box64 or https://fex-emu.com/

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conan--aquilonian@reddit (OP)

So it seems it would cause extra performance loss on top of proton? Since you are essentially running two layers

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Recent_Computer_9951@reddit

yeah

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conan--aquilonian@reddit (OP)

Does it work with the standard linux iso or does one need to get an arm specific one?

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DoubleOwl7777@reddit

you need an arm specific one but every major distro has one these days, except the arch crowd but they do everything themselves anyways so they will get this to work too.

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DynoMenace@reddit

The biggest lingering question I have is how x86 translation will or does work. Apple has Rosetta2 and Microsoft has Prism. Both are fast enough to often outperform contemporary x86 hardware running natively, and early testing shows that some of the new WoA laptops have really promising gaming performance even for x86 games. Is there anything that comes close for Linux? And how will it play with Wine, if at all?

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Electrical_Tomato_73@reddit

For most linux users that's not a big issue, most open software works fine on ARM (I used a raspberry pi as a desktop for a while, absolutely no issues with missing software). I would say if you want to run windows software, just run windows. I do wonder if there will be a WSL for windows-on-ARM though.

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DynoMenace@reddit

Really, it's mostly gaming in thinking of. IMO a lot of recent general interest in Linux stems from Steam Deck/Proton/Lutris/Wine making gaming so accessible. I think ARM is the way forward for laptops, but I don't want to see the drive towards compatibility fizzle out as a result of a lack of a good translation layer.

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tajetaje@reddit

Look into Box86

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conan--aquilonian@reddit (OP)

will proton need a recompile then to work on arm? or is it just plug and play on ARM?

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tajetaje@reddit

Distros will package it just like they do now, but all apps are only compiled for one architecture

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Unlikely-Sympathy626@reddit

Vm on Mac m2 runs with cpu pass through just fine installing the arm version so I would not imagine there would be any issues. Maybe initially while they sort gpu drivers etc but I do not think that will be a big issue. Looking forward to it. Got the m2 specifically for playing around on the type of chips. Now able to get a good alternative. Cannot wait!

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lproven@reddit

Only if they directly and specifically support that particular model of laptop. Possibly that make, model, revision and configuration.

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sine-wave@reddit

Qualcomm preparing official Linux support https://www.tomshardware.com/software/linux/qualcomm-goes-where-apple-wont-readies-official-linux-support-for-snapdragon-x-elite

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Solid_Lettuce3367@reddit

I guess the question is how well will peripherals be supported on arm laptops? I am keen to get an arm laptop - with an oled screen - but curious which will or has the best support for webcam, mic, speakers, and wifi.

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angelpunk18@reddit

I run Ubuntu for arm in a vm inside an m1 MacBook Air, runs great!

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MatchingTurret@reddit

Linux has been running on ARM for over 30 years.

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DoubleOwl7777@reddit

all popular distros except arch have been ready for atleast decade. windows on arm was (and still is kinda) worse than linux on arm. heck i am typing this on a device that uses a heavily modified linux as its os aka android.

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halfanothersdozen@reddit

As someone who ordered a Surface Laptop I expect it to be a minute before I can go native on that laptop, specifically, but WSL is pretty good these days so I'll survive

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19GK50@reddit

I have two RPI, a 4 with 8gb and a 400 with 4 gb, the 400 been running Ubuntu mate over a span of 18 months, no problem, my 4-8gb runs Raspberry OS, POP OS and MX LINUX with no issues.

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r2vcap@reddit

Before asking such questions, you should first understand what ELF format and ISA are. You can refer to answers like https://stackoverflow.com/q/267941 .

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swn999@reddit

Expensive machines, especially the X elite, we’ll see how they are in the real world soon enough.

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darth_chewbacca@reddit

> be able to be installed and run on one of these devices? Yes > Or will there be a long development time while Linux on Arm matures? Probably not that long. It's all really a matter of popularity. My X13s (qualcomm based arm processor) works well enough with ironrobin's ArchArm derivative, but I have to build my own kernel if I want things like btrfs or USB drives. I hear Asahi works pretty well on Apple M1 and M2, and thats because it's popular enough to support the development. I expect that these new laptops will be pretty popular, more popular in-aggregate than apple's stuff, and the qualcomm chips already have a head start because Qualcomm has a history with linux via Android (IE the gpu drivers will be pretty quickly available) The one thing that worries me is that the laptops are pretty damn expensive, and that might dull the popularity, thus dull the priority for developers to hack linux onto them. Give it between 4 and 7 months, and I expect Fedora will be running well on them.

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zardvark@reddit

It's not a Linux issue. It's more a matter of whether your preferred distro embraces ARM, or not. [https://www.tomshardware.com/software/linux/linus-torvalds-now-favors-arm-powered-ampere-chip-over-apple-silicon-mac-for-building-linux-kernels-says-the-more-powerful-system-is-why-hes-doing-more-arm64-linux-testing](https://www.tomshardware.com/software/linux/linus-torvalds-now-favors-arm-powered-ampere-chip-over-apple-silicon-mac-for-building-linux-kernels-says-the-more-powerful-system-is-why-hes-doing-more-arm64-linux-testing)

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daemonpenguin@reddit

Linux has been running on ARM laptops for around ten years. Windows and Apple are just catching up now.

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