8.6 Blackout vs 375 Raptor

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Dude_I_got_a_DWAVE@reddit

I love 300 blackout. However

As a subsonic thumper, 8.6blackout is a meme round. that might be the first time I’ve made that accusation of any cartridge

-288gr is hardly an upgrade from the 220gr 300Blackout. When you need to stay subsonic, velocity is capped at ~1100fps so increasing mass is the only way to increase energy

ALL OF THIS CARTRIDGE DEVELOPMENT FOR A MERE 30% INCREASE IN MUZZLE ENERGY OVER 300 BO

-STILL hasn’t been developed well enough to be actually accurate. And it’s iNsAnE sPiN requires weird adjustments inside of 500yds? ….. Meanwhile it’s ruining user’s suppressors

-marketed as able to take dangerous game: the subsonic 228gr has the 770ftlb- roughly same muzzle energy as a 44magnum.

-costs more than 375 or even 458 socom, which has subsonic loads up to 600gr- over double the muzzle energy of 8.6. 375 comes in at 400gr. Still pretty awesome.

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a couple minor corrections: maker is producing a 350gr bullet specifically for the 8.6. that IS a substantial improvement over 220gr 300 blk, but still not as good as 400gr 375, or anywhere close to the various 458 caliber heavies. secondly, 44 mag can pretty easily break 1200 ft-lbs in a 7.5" barrel, and is WAY more powerful than subsonic 8.6 lol.

100% agree that 8.6 is a wildly overhyped meme round.

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Dude_I_got_a_DWAVE@reddit

Yeah- 770ft-lb is pretty much basic range 44mag- nothing special.

350gr starts to make more sense for 8.6

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

The difference being that because of the difference in BC the 44 magnum loses a third of its energy at 100 yards whereas 8.6 only loses 22% of its energy through 500 yards.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

nothing stops you from loading longer than standard bullets in a 44mag case. loading a more pointed bullet that is too ling for a 44 mag cylinder is much less of a wildcat than 8.6, and you can get much more bullet going. even with existing cast bullets that stay inside the cylinder gets you to 400gr at the same velocity, if you made the fit requirement more lenient im sure you could push that much much further.

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

You mean nothing other than finite freeborn area?

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ravenerOSR@reddit

im sure you can imagine some kind of extremely straight forward solution to that problem.

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

So your solution to 8.6 blackout being a pretty nice cartridge is to custom design a ridiculously long and gradual 44 cal projectile that allows the tip of the bullet to pass the starts of the lands without making no any contact? Which in turn defeats the purpose of using 44 magnum because now you would need a new barrel to accommodate the spin rate a projectile of that length would require to stabilize?

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Bewildered_Scotty@reddit

Those bullets exist, but they are lead. You’re better off with 500 smith though, there’s some development of jacketed subsonics in that caliber.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

its still a wildcat, but a wildcat using existing brass, and that can also shoot factory ammo. the main benefit is that you can get much much more bullet than 8.6 while keeping cost pretty reasonable.

having a custom barrel isnt a particularly big ask, 8.6 needed a custom barrel. you would also need to make magazines to hold these things. it's not a small task, unless you just have a single shot, but at least you'll get good subsonic performance out of it, as opposed to 8.6 where there's an astounding amount of squeeze for not that much juice.

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

8.6 blackout used 6.5 Creedmoor brass which is readily available.
The cost per bullet wouldn’t be reasonable because we are now talking about a custom made product. You can already buy factory loaded 8.6 which already makes that rifle more convenient than your idea.
8.6 needs a custom barrel if you want to add it to a firearm you already have and that isn’t very weird for AR15s. ARs are easy to change cartridges with. Most 44 magnums are not ARs. They’re either lever guns (which by the way can’t accommodate pointed projectiles making this concept moot for the platform) or bolt guns, setting aside revolvers which this would be useless for. You can also already buy 8.6 rifles. To buy a full rifle chambered for your concept it would be a few years behind 8.6 now.
8.6 blackout has plenty of juice and holds it quite well out to range.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

no. it has to be necked out, making it a derivative, but different casing. 2 good thing you can shoot factory loads most of the time, also those 8.6 bullets arent cheap either.
then buy a 458 socom
less juice than a 44mag, less juice than 458 socom.

this whole thing was a thought experiment to show there are much better ways to the goal if you are designing a custom cartridge, ways that can even let you dual use a standard cartridge. if you want all custom there already exist better wildcat cartridges for subsonic use. 500 whisper comes to mind

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

What is the point of creating an entirely custom rifle with a custom barrel and oversized action for no performance advantage.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

The performance advantage is that you can fit like twice as much bullet as 8.6

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

But can you? Can you push a 700 grain bullet (2x the 8.6) in an actual 44 magnum chamber and still accomplish close to sound velocities? Probably not. Even with +P+ chambering the 44 magnum only pushes ~350 grain projectiles (same size as 6.5) a few hundred fps faster.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

Also, youre not even a little concerned that the commercially loaded +p+ throws the same ammount of bullet quite a lot faster than 8.6? Should be a hint that since its already ballistically superior further gain should be possible with loosening restrictions on chamber dimensions?

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

30-06 is ballistically superior to both. Does that mean neither should exist? The point of 8.6 is to create a high BC subsonic with better performance than 300 blackout but better ballistics than the heavier ones like .458 SOCOM. It does that by having a very high BC and can be used in any rifle that is already available in 6.5 or .308 chambering a with a simple barrel swap.

44 magnum isn’t ballistically superior though. It has a better initial velocity. It’s actually outperformed by a wide margin at range. 8.6 only loses 22% of its energy out to 500.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

And if you loosen the length restrictions theres nothing stopping you from putting a nice and slender bullet in a 44case.

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

But you lose all the advantages of using 44 magnum. There is no point to this hypothetical cartridge. The reason to improve upon ballistics of a cartridge is so you can still use the older stuff as well as the new stuff. Putting a slender bullet in 44 magnum would be the worst possible combination of all of these ideas.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

You can use the older stuff as well, even with a significantly higher spin rate.

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

No you can’t. Increased twist rates make shorter bullets less stable. You’d also be shooting them out of a much longer action which increases your free bore area, potentially to a very unacceptable degree.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

The larger 44 bullets are already fairly long. We're just bumping the mass by like 50%. Thinking there wont be an overlap in acceptable twist isnt reasonable.

The acceptible free bore in 44 is inanely long.have a look at the chamber dimensions for a revolver.

Youre fighting on a very dumb hill now. The feasibility here is high

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

It’s not just projectile mass, it’s shape. Higher twist rates expose flaws in projectiles. Flat nose projectiles and hollow points that are typically used in 44 magnum will be absolutely exposed by 1 in 4 twist rates needed for a 500+ grain high BC projectiles at subsonic velocity.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

You dont actually need 1/4 twist rates. This is a pretty close L/D ratio as 300 blackout, and that makes due with 1/8. Thats steep, but not insane by any means.

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

If you’re losing a higher percentage of your energy then your BC is lower not higher which means it’s also going to perform worse at range in terms of precision. Modern 44 magnum has a 1 in 20 twist. For shooting subsonic, 1 in 7 ire recommended for 300 blackout. Specialized heavier subtonics benefit from going all the way to 1 in 5. 1 in 8 is viewed as acceptable when trying to bridge the gap between subsonics and supersonics which isn’t ideal for high BC subsonics. To get a BC similar to 8.6 blackout you would need a L:D ration that is at least the same, especially to accommodate the very long and narrow hypothetical projectile you were talking about before. That shape is half the equation for BC. Without a BC equal to or higher than 8.6 this hypothetical round serves no purpose because it is more inconvenient at every turn.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

Probbably yes, or at least pretty close to it. 400 exists, 500 is very obviously doable with increased length allowance, 600 seems pretty likely, and 700 might be possible, but its going to be a pretty long boy

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

You can’t shoot factory 44 if you do your custom build. The new twist rate would make regular 44 unstable. It wouldn’t have less juice than your hypothetical 44. Once these new projectiles were created they would be much heavier than current loads, and being a straight wall cartridge it won’t be able to push them near as fast. I’d expect it to be significantly below the speed of sound. Again, creating an all new wildcat because you don’t like this other production cartridge is a lot to do for basically no advantage.

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ravenerOSR@reddit

I dont think you have a clue what you are talking about. You can spin regular 44 pretty fast if you want to, and you can already cram 400 grains in a 44mag case and push it at about 1000fps with no special chamber

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TravelLopsided6980@reddit

what we need a is a heavy cheap, good bc round. like a 458 socom that was more efficient, accurate, and common

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Key-Question-2046@reddit

Psa trying to wake this back up for gits and shiggles but since this post how do you feel the 8.6 has progressed

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sirbassist83@reddit

Still a hype beast meme round, and will never not be

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IllWheel2130@reddit

You need to try the 342 or 350-grain bullets. I like all three but each has its different uses.

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PrairieBiologist@reddit

I think you’re totally glazing over the difference in ballistic coefficients. 8.6 blackout with a 300 grain projectile has a BC of .750 compared to whereas a 500 grain .458 socom only has a BC of .44. The 8.6 is retaining 78% of its energy through 500 yards. With 342 grain projectiles it’s maintaining 80% of its energy at 500 yards.

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Dude_I_got_a_DWAVE@reddit

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/8-6-blackout-is-qs-new-cartridge-all-hype-and-no-substance/amp

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=425

While 250yards is the commonly given maximum range for 458, Kevin himself says 8.6 is good out to 300yds Subsonic

At 300 yds, 8.6BO subs have dropped to 600ft-lbs of energy, while a 500gr 458 is still pumping out 885ft-lb. At 300yds, 8.6 has 68% of the energy that 458 does.

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stainlessbananapeel@reddit

8.6 blackout is dumb, rotational energy is not real, and the 1 in 3" twist rate is dumb. 338 projectiles are overpriced, and you're not getting enough weight gain vs 308 projectiles, and I don't care about Gucci makers turning out copper slugs one at a time for $2 a piece.

Anyone that wants a supersonic rifle is dumb to pick either cartridge. Anyone that wants a subsonic rifle, I'd go with 300 blackout or 375 raptor or 358 Winchester or 45 raptor before going with 8.6 blackout.

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CornStacker69420@reddit

Great analysis 😂 Twist rate is “dumb”. Rotational energy isn’t real? Have you seen any of the results of what 250k RPM expanding subsonic rounds do to flesh or ballistics gel? How about the expanding super Sonic’s at 500k rpm? Same round spinning much slower at same velocity will not create as intense of a wound cavity. That’s rotational energy. 338 projectiles are overpriced? There’s a thing called Midway Seconds. Can reload 8.6 subs for $1.10-1.50 per round 🤷‍♂️ It’s dumb to call things dumb without actually researching things. It’s all good if you love your .308 man, doesn’t make other cartridges dumb. Some people out here are into ballistics as a hobby and enjoy reloading and shooting different cartridges.

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pumperdemon@reddit

Funny thing is, the raptor does everything the 8.6 does without a ridiculous spin rate that requires special bullet construction to keep the bullet from exploding right out of the barrel when you push it too hard. Raptor also has a very small holdover at 300m, and not much more at 500. 300m is actually the MPBR for raptor. Not so for 8.6. Add in the fact that cheaper bullets can be had with a larger selection because .375 has been around in different flavors for over 100 years, and raptor has a much better powder efficiency...

Alright, just to make you feel a little better, let's modify the previous statement and say that mega high spin rate is really nothing but a marketing gimmick, and marketing gimmicks are dumb. Feel better?

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CornStacker69420@reddit

Show me another ballistics gel test that looks like 8.6 wound channel with 1:3 twist.

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stainlessbananapeel@reddit

OK buddy.

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375HandH@reddit

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Beneficial_Use8911@reddit

.375 raptor is still very impressive supersonic, especially in shorter barrels.

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toomanytaxstamps@reddit

I think the Raptor is more impressive ballistically, and the cooler round for sure. Obviously 8.6 is seeing a lot more commercial success due to a huge marketing effort behind it, better suppressor selection and availability, and more factory ammo options.

But if you’re committed to the idea of subsonic hunting, I think the 375 Raptor is the clear choice.

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PassionsandwicH@reddit

I second this.

I load 270gr supers and 400gr subs for my AR10. It's a super versatile cartridge with a more efficient burn because of the larger bore diameter. A good suppressor and an adjustable gas block are a must to discover what this round can do... which is a lot!

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Any-Ostrich48@reddit

Where are you getting 400gr pills? And are there any other options? It seems like there's enough "left on the table" to be able to launch a 450gr at ~1050 fps

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PassionsandwicH@reddit

Maker bullets sells the 400gr bullets and those are the heaviest I can find. Does any one make a 450gr 375 caliber bullet?

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pumperdemon@reddit

I've seen as high as 500gr for the faster .375s, but that will remove expansion from the equation completely in a raptor. If you need heavier, look at .375 H&H or .375 Ruger offerings.

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Someguyintheroom2@reddit

Maker makes a 450 grain .375 Rex now

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Any-Ostrich48@reddit

u/RobinsonArms check this thread out

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CoreMillenial@reddit

Is the fast twist rate not kind of it's selling point?

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NEp8ntballer@reddit

That's what KB is saying. I'm not sure if I buy the idea of rotational energy, but it does impressive things.

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Gews@reddit

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about. This is nonsensical babble:

"Fast twist barrels provide much greater energy with supersonic"

"... a 1-3 twist, so we’ve settled on the twist. We’re using some of the energy that is wasted, converting that to kinetic energy now by spinning the bullet faster. So in supersonic, it is more kinetic energy on target by spinning the bullet fast."

You can't increase the kinetic energy by changing the twist rate from reasonable, to 1-in-3". If anything, such a fast twist could reduce the overall muzzle energy.

It can affect the bullet performance, though. Just look at how some bullets explode into lead mist if you spin them too fast. I still think it's dumb.

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ProwlingTheDeep@reddit

So I am not a buyer in the 1:3 twist for a few other reasons and I really don’t like Q or Kevin, but I don’t think he is an idiot. I am not sure where you are quoting the “greater energy with supersonics” from. The entire point as far as I’ve seen has always been more energy with subsonics, not supers. And it makes sense to me at least. I thought they explained it pretty well in their “Y Q” video about fast twist.

With subs you are obviously limited in velocity by the speed of sound, so you can’t increase kinetic energy by adding more velocity. So instead they do it by adding more rotational energy. The question is how effectively does that energy transfer to its intended target down range? A lot think it’s a gimmick. But ballistic gel tests look interesting at least. I’m more worried about shredding bullets apart and destroying suppressors.

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Gews@reddit

I transcribed those from a YouTube video interview with Kevin Brittingham, it's from the horse's mouth.

If you are held to a given speed then yes, it could increase the energy. But not by much.

With the 342-gr projectile at 1,050 ft/s (837.1 ft lbs), an 8" twist gives a rotational kinetic energy of 7.4 ft lbs, and the 3" twist increases this to 52.4 ft lbs, so the overall kinetic energy has been increased by 5% (889.5 vs 844.5 ft lbs).

With the supersonic loads the rotational energy is even higher, but in that case it may be sucking that out of the translation energy. I won't say it doesn't do anything, if a bullet can explode into a fine mist, then you can clearly change the terminal ballistics. There are tests going decades back showing results on target of twist rate changes. It's interesting, but all the downsides don't seem worth it and .338 ARC seems like a better bet.

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CoreMillenial@reddit

Yeah, I don't claim to really get it, but I suppose the proof is on the pudding.

And by pudding, I mean his pile of dead exotic animals.

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