.45 vs 9 mm?
Posted by J701PR4@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 268 comments
I’m a Cold War veteran. I was trained on & carried the 1911 .45 until the last year of my service when the Army switched over to the 9mm.
The only reason we were given was so that our sidearms would be compatible with NATO ammunition, which has given me an utterly irrational but nonetheless real bias against the 9mm.
Since my discharge over 30 years ago I have always used a .45. Now I’m looking at buying sidearms for my wife & five kids, so I could use some actual legitimate advice.
What are the rational & empirical pros & cons of the 9mm vs .45 debate?
robbins290@reddit
They are pretty close to being equal now. The 9mm will have higher round count. Cheaper to shoot. Lower recoil. Better selection of pistols. There is only pro’s, no cons with switching over to 9mm. And i used to be a hard 45 acp guy.
SaltBad6605@reddit
Thanks, well said. I still mildy prefer the 45acp, but my carry gun of choice is 9mm (g48).
I despise the caliber wars.
One advantage of the 45acp is its a subsonic round, in 9mm you have to get like 147gr to be sure. Only matters if you're shooting suppressed (which I do). I've stored up a fair bit of subsonic 9mm though.
Ok-Volume9754@reddit
I use 124 gr I would say it is a perfect balance in the different grain weights for 9mm, you don’t need 147 gr.
robbins290@reddit
I agree. Caliber wars are stupid. Just do what i did. And get them all. Each have there own nitch. I agree, 45 is perfect for a can. I carry a 45 once in a while.
Only real reason why i shoot and carry 9mm the most is cost. I high volume shoot. So the cents per round adds up quick.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you.
languid-lemur@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEU(SOC)_pistol
.45ACP remains in service with US Mil, take it FWIW.
jreacher7@reddit
That just happened, and not for all Marines, just those on the MEU.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thanks, this is interesting. My son’s a Marine officer, I should ask him about it. When the Army switched over I just assumed (wrongly, apparently), that the entire DoD switched, also.
languid-lemur@reddit
Surprised me as well although it shouldn't. The M14 morphed into the M21 and remains in service -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M21_Sniper_Weapon_System
Apparently same for M3A1 SMG, possibly in armor units -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-m3-m3a1-grease-guns/
Draugakjallur@reddit
They're all switching over to Glocks.
Antisocialite99@reddit
9 also has better range penetration and flatter trajectory.
45 is better if you want to supress is about it.
If you want something harder hitting than 9 go 10mm. Almost as powerful as 357 but less recoil more capacity and cheaper.
Spirited-Note2677@reddit
Bullshit equal my ass
DeFiClark@reddit
“Better selection of pistols” ; curious on how you support this one given almost every manufacturer of quality handguns makes both — CZ S&W SIG Ruger Glock etc
robbins290@reddit
There are only like 3 pistols in 45 for the concealed carry market. The g36, a 3” 1911 or shield 45.
Thats what i was referring to, where as there are dozens upon dozens for the 9mm for the ccw market.
androidmids@reddit
Kahr pm45 (and about 6 other versions of kahr)...
Springfield arms xds 45 and xds mod2 45...
Tons of 1911 variations...
Sig, hk, m&p, all make 45acp compact and sub compact ...
All the derringer manufacturers make a 45acp version...
And so on
robbins290@reddit
Ya. Compared a list way bigger then that with 9mm.
DeFiClark@reddit
Huh, I guess the dozens of compact 1911s are one gun.
Never thought I had so few options.
But then I remembered Sig p320, Kahr CW, Springfield XDS, Walther PPQ, SAR K2 45C… not dozens unless I get to count the 1911s more than once. But lots of good choices come to mind without even googling what all else is out there.
robbins290@reddit
There are some good choices. But almost 10x as much more in 9mm. And the ppq is not much of a compact.
zwirlo@reddit
Modern ammo has closed the gap between HP 9mm and FMJ 45, but that same technology has just made HP 45 even better. I say this as a 9mm guy. I still think capacity takes the cake.
The only other advantage is that although 9mm is more ubiquitous and prolific, during a run on ammo 45 and 40 will tend to be in stock. That is the only advantage in my opinion, and I hate 40 and 357 sig etc. I hate the creation of new calibers that don’t really fill a niche and just cause less interchangeability between parts.
chuck_of_death@reddit
My understanding is 45 HP being slower and heavier gets worse % expansion than 9mm HP. They end up being so similar it doesn’t matter. Only reason to take 45 is for suppression or shooting ball ammo.
zwirlo@reddit
If it was the same bullet yes, but I would think ammo manufacturers know and change the HP petals to adjust for the different speed, making them more pliable or sturdy depending on the bullet. There's also problems with overexpansion. The Paul Harrel video takes a look at all sides of HP expansion.
robbins290@reddit
Thats the only reason why i have a 40 and 357 sig. theres also ammo for it. And can shoot it when i cant find 9mm.
But since covid. I am going to keep 5-6k rounds on hand. I got screwed by only stocking 2k rounds. A couple training sessions and i was out of ammo and was not paying 50 cents a round for 9mm
BirdEducational6226@reddit
Yup. And with some of the defense ammo out there you really don't need to worry about "stopping power" like people think.
Sierra-117-@reddit
Seriously it doesn’t matter if it’s a .45 or a 9mm if it’s hollow point. It will fuck you up regardless
robbins290@reddit
Exactly!
IdaDuck@reddit
I’d agree. With good bullets the performance is effectively even. But with 9mm you get lower recoil which should generally mean better accuracy, and higher capacity. I love 45 and everybody should have one for fun but from a carry standpoint 9mm is superior. I will admit the 45 Shield was a legit argument before the double stack micro 9’s flooded the market. It’s still a great carry pistol but 45 gets trumped by 6+1 vs 10 or 12 + 1.
Antisocialite99@reddit
12plus 1? Most 10mm are 15 plus 1.
Dry_Atmosphere1500@reddit
Love my 45 shield but it got sent to the bench once I got my P365. I shoot it better and, as has been said, same performance.
mogli_forrest@reddit
3w
Warhead225225@reddit
Everyone except the extravagant teir 1 units rock 9mm for the reason of cost efficiency. Anyone who rocks a 1911 IN THIS DAY AND AGE, like LAPD SWAT, is doing so b.c they dont expect it to be their primary fighting weapon. Police (The ppl most likely to be in a situation where they have to defend themselves) walk around with a glock 22 with a 15 round mag and 2 spare mags usually. That being said, most civilian self defense shootings are solved favorably for the defender in less than 6 shots.
bonerdickcummysnatch@reddit
There's no such thing as a Cold War veteran.
Durango060119@reddit
45 acp vs 9 mm ammo
IndependentTap4557@reddit
The debate is based on the myth that bullet diameter/"stopping power" is the only factor when it comes to how a bullet does damage which isn't true. Penetration(to a certain extent) is a more important metric since it's more likely to hit something and rips far more tissue than a much shorter, but slightly wider hole. That's where the arguments of .45 ACP being more likely to stop an attacker falls apart because while It'll leave a wider hole, 9mm leaves a longer one and more of it can fit inside a magazine than .45 ACP. The claims that 9mm doesn't have enough power to defeat attackers has been disproven for over a century. All the fudds that talk about how the 1911 won two world wars always seem to forget that the Hi-Power exists and that 9mm diameter pistols were arguably the most popular sidearms in both world wars given their extensive use by both sides of each war. Pistols as small as 7.62mm have been extremely popular in military use around the world as well so the idea that 9mm is too "weak" to effectively stop attackers is fairly ridiculous since it's been successfully doing that for over a century.
.45 ACP is a decent cartridge, but 9mm just has been range, better magazine capacity and better target penetration and it's why 9mm pistols and submachine guns continue to dominate the market compared to their .45 ACP counterparts.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you for such a detailed answer. I appreciate it.
Dive30@reddit
Use what you will carry and can quickly and accurately put rounds on target. 9mm, .40, .45, 454 Casull, The ballistics don’t matter if you don’t have it with you and/or can’t quickly hit your target.
HobbitSoldier@reddit
Right. Most of us carry because of possible situation of; alone, on the street, one or two targets. Our EDC needs to fit our comfort level. If OP likes 45 ACP, so be it.
Fr33speechisdeAd@reddit
I carry a 45, but upon reading the data, modern 9mm rounds are now on par with the 45. I think my next choice will be a compact 9mm.
Busy_Past_9951@reddit
Modern 9mm is not on par with modern 45. It's just not
Fr33speechisdeAd@reddit
I disagree. There is quite a bit of data available that suggests the two rounds are similar in terms of damage, such as GarandThumb's head to head comparison here. The upshot is that 9mm gives you the capacity to carry more rounds with less recoil, and that to me tips the balance in favor of 9mm. But you do what works best for you.
HobbitSoldier@reddit
My EDC is a Shield 45 ACP. I have only shot 9mm on the range with friends. Part of the reason I never considered changing is what it would actually be used for.
If I am at a mall or store and some SOB starts shooting up the place, I will try to hide and let LE handle it. I am sure I would trigger unless they were very close. So, either 45 or 9mm would do the job.
If it is SHTF and I am home protecting, there would be a Weatherby 459 12Ga. to reach out and touch bad guys. The Shield would only be for close in stuff.
LingonberryNo472@reddit
I would recommend 9mm as it is a much more versatile and common round
Own-Pause-5294@reddit
If we're talking shtf, it probably doesn't matter too much how common it is. Not like you're going to be getting in more than 3 firefights before your luck runs out.
Umney@reddit
You left out .380.
PuzzleheadedSky5024@reddit
In Afghanistan I saw people hit with 9mm get up and continue to fight .....saw people hit with 45 as well ...they didn't get up.
Zealousideal_Map_469@reddit
Thank you for your service.
PuzzleheadedSky5024@reddit
Thank you
shaned58@reddit
With modern ammunition, the differences in the terminal ballistic of handgun rounds is negligible. What it boils down to is magazine capacity mostly. Considering most force on force encounters involve multiple attackers, 9 mm affords more opportunities to stop the bad guys. I don't remember his many rounds is standard for subcompact sized handguns, but my compact came with 2 standard 15 round magazines.
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
This is basically the best answer. I love the 1911, but 9mm vs .45 ballistics aren’t that much different. My Glock holds 17 rounds. I’d rather be able to dump those 17 at someone than 7 from my 1911. If you put a 9mm round center mass or in someone’s T box they’re going down. The average person if they take any round at all is going to go down or run away regardless of the caliber. But also I hate the Barretta it’s awkward and heavy so maybe that’s what turned you off to 9mm. Try some other makers before making a decision.
SaltBad6605@reddit
The "wide body 1911" holds 15 45acp, I think, same as a glock 21 45acp, so you can get a 45 that holds a bunch too.
I absolutely love a good 1911 trigger and the grip feel of a single stack is excellent. I have a 1911 in 9mm that I like for 2 gun fun night. I have a dual caliber 1911 type wide body I'm 9mm/22tcm that's a Hoot, 18 rounds I think? Best trigger in the world.
But, to the question at hand, shtf a glock 19 in 9mm is a good baseline. (But in my state they just passed a low capacity mag limit law...ugh)
HugzNNugz76@reddit
If you cannot reload within 1.5 seconds, then thats a you problem. Magazine capacity is absolutely meaningless.
jwsconsult@reddit
heh, you pretty much summed up what I was coming in to say. Love my 1911s trigger, can shoot it more accurately, but the glock is good enough, holds more rounds, and is what I'd grab. though I of course have ammo and mags for both. :)
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
To be perfectly honest, what turned me off on the 9mm was the thought that “fuck Europe. We’re the backbone of NATO, let them switch to the .45.” You think differently when you’re a 20-year-old infantryman than you do when you’re a professor closing in on 60, lol. Like I mentioned, it’s a totally irrational bias. That’s why I’m finally considering switching, at least for the rest of my family.
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
But think of it like this it’s a higher velocity round specifically designed to conquer Europe. Much like the 5,56 specifically designed to kill commies.
duTemplar@reddit
5.56 designed to wound commies.
There’s a reason the US military is upgrading to far better ammos.
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
Nope 5.56 was designed to punch through Soviet helmets.
duTemplar@reddit
That was one of the criteria, was was remaining supersonic at 500y.
Combat troops have been complaining of how weak the 5.56 is since Vietnam. I guarantee you we 100% complained about how bad it was in Desert Shield/Storm, Gothic Serpent, elsewhere, and Enduring Freedom.
After Somalia we designed the .458 SOCOM for dudes hopped up on khat that took either extremely accurate placement or numerous hit to take down.
The changes have been made for distance, accuracy, impact, and that they can drop someone much easier.
5.56 stinks. Even if I did smoke quite a few with it, I muuuuuch prefer very better ammo than something designed to wound and “just” penetrate a WW2 helmet.
StanfordWrestler@reddit
So what’s your favorite combat rifle round now?
Own-Pause-5294@reddit
7.62x39
Psycosteve10mm@reddit
It does not take much to put down a starving commie. The 5.56/.223 was designed as a varmint round.
PrinceHarryDavid@reddit
NATO has approximately 3.36 million active military personnel, compared to 1.4m million active military in America. That’s why the switch.
The-Wizard-of_Odd@reddit
It's OK to stay biased for yourself, and perfectly fine to start the rest of the family with 9.
I started with 9, so I dislike 45 myself, and my wife hates the recoil.
Dieselpump510@reddit
I love the Beretta 92. It’s like a sowing machine that launches hot lead. Very accurate too. Wish I could find a Beretta 93r.
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
I hated it. Small hands hard for me to grip. Plus heavy as hell compared to the new sig or glocks
SassiesSoiledPanties@reddit
This. Went shooting with my dad to the range. Many shots veering to the right despite proper stance and grip. He couldn't understand why his much bigger hands had no problem with the trigger but my shorter stubby fingers had to fish for the trigger and pull too long to hit accurately. Soon as I save up some cash, I'm getting myself a Glock 43X.
Dieselpump510@reddit
Makes sense. I’m 6’7” and can palm a basketball so it fits nicely in my hand and I daily carry a Glock so weight doesn’t bother me when it’s just for fun or home defense. Berettas trigger makes my Glock trigger break feel like it’s full of sand.
Internal_Metal_1227@reddit
I also think the reason a lot of people don't like the change is just be the feel in shooting difference throwing off what you've trained so much on. My dad talks about this a lot from his time in law enforcement they used to issue 40 S&W Glocks where he worked and then switched to 9mm 3/4 through his career and he got so used to shooting .40 that the 9 just threw him off when he went to qualify with it (they only gave them 4 days with the new weapons before qualifying) and he was ticked off he did worse than he normally did. Couple months of practice though and he was sold on the 9mm and it's all he uses now except for the Glock he bought back, after carrying it for so long I think he grew a little attached to that one. His EDC though is a Springfield EMP 9mm
asdf_qwerty27@reddit
Most use of handguns in America does not involve multiple attackers. Choose the weapon you are most comfortable with. It is unlikely you will need to spend one round in your lifetime out of fear/anger, much less mag dump into 10 bad guys.
mrminty@reddit
That's why I proudly conceal carry 2 flintlock pistols.
asdf_qwerty27@reddit
Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up, Just as the founding fathers intended
XerxesCrofter@reddit
Sad times as I type this (a former president and several bystanders were shot by a scoundrel two days ago), so this fusillade of humor was much appreciated. Well done!
PadKrapowKhaiDao@reddit
Holy shit, a year later and this has me cracking up. Glad I stumbled upon it.
BenSadfleck@reddit
The average self defense shooting in America is 2.1 rounds fired, it’s far more important that the gun is realistically something you’ll have on you on the extremely off chance you need it.
asdf_qwerty27@reddit
This is exactly my point. From this, an 8 round magazine or 6 round revolver is adequate. Carry an extra magazine if you want, or another 6 rounds for a revolver. The 9mm guys who make the "but what if I need 16 rounds to fight all the ninjas" argument are not really making a point for a realistic situation.
I don't like 9mm, but I understand why the military uses it and why others like it. The military does not have the same needs as me, and I'm not limited by the same logistical constraints. Saving 2 cents per dollar of ammo is not meaningful to me. To the military, that is millions of dollars a year. I'm not worried about being engaged in a fire fight and needing to hold out for hours.
Just get the firearm you are comfortable with and that is reasonably reliable. Alot of the debate regarding firearms is mall ninja shit that isn't based in reality.
BenSadfleck@reddit
I agree with you so hard I carry a 3” single stack 45
BenSadfleck@reddit
In what civilian world does an attack involve more than one attacker?
shaned58@reddit
OJP.gov (Report II NCJ 255969) breaks down the numbers. Over half the violent crime in the US involves multiple assailants.
Terminal_Lancelot@reddit
I mean, .065 inches of expansion vs 0.85 inches of expansion is still a pretty big difference.
Dull-Technician457@reddit
How many thousand rounds of modern high quality self defense ammo do you have stockpiled?
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
My bulk stock is long gun .556, .30-06, and 12-gauge. For pistols I only stock a couple of hundred rounds.
SaltBad6605@reddit
After reading about a lot of actual shtf, I adjusted my thinking on that to seeing how a discreet defense weapon may get the more use and stacked more into handgun ammo. When you see people in Africa trying to go to market, while the militia guys may have aks, the normal peeps don't. That gray man stuff. Also why I'm a fan of suppressed.
Just a though4
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Excellent point, thank you.
LastEntertainment684@reddit
Ballistically .45 and 9mm with modern jacketed hollow point ammunition perform surprisingly close. The added velocity of a 9mm+P or 9mm+p+ load allows for some incredible expansion and penetration. .45acp, running at lower pressures and velocities, doesn’t get the same percentage of expansion increase. So they end up very close in those metrics (penetration and expansion).
Where 9mm really wins out is capacity. If you have to engage multiple attackers having ~5 extra rounds in a compact firearm before reloading is hard to argue with.
That being said, they recoil differently. I tend to shoot bigger bore pistols (.45/10mm) better than I do 9mm. I also currently live in a state where we’re limited to 10rd capacity. So I end up with a 10mm or .45 with me as much, or more, than a 9mm.
At the end of the day if you’re more comfortable with one than the other, shoot it better, and have plenty of ammo stacked up, it’s fine to stick with it. I wouldn’t get rid of all my .45’s for 9’s just because the internet said so.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Yeah, good point. I’ve used the .45 for 40 years so I don’t see myself switching. I’m preparing to upgrade my wife & teens’ from the .22 Rugers they learned on, and I’m seeing lots of convincing arguments here to go with the 9mm.
LastEntertainment684@reddit
Yea, in your case I would get them matching 9mms so magazines, parts, manual of arms, etc is all shared.
For you I’d pick up a single stack micro-compact 9mm. Something small enough you can throw in a pocket as a backup/bug gun to your .45. Then at least you have something that can share ammo with them and can be deeply concealed if necessary.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
That’s a great idea. I already planned to get them all identical weapons. Right now they all own Ruger LCPII .22s. Do you have a recommendation for a reliable 9mm that won’t break the bank when I have to buy four?
LastEntertainment684@reddit
If they’re already used to the Ruger LCPII, a Ruger LC9s might work for them. Capacity is lower and recoil is stout, so I would suggest they all try one out first. That might be a good option to pick up for you first, as that backup/bug.
Now, if you want the real capacity advantage a 9mm brings, I would consider the following:
The Glock 19 has traditionally been the gold standard of an all around 9mm pistol. Its a good mix of size, weight, control-ability, capacity, and simplicity. The grip doesn’t work for everyone though.
If you’re looking for something thinner with a different grip shape. The Sig P365 XL is an excellent choice. You lose a little in capacity, but you gain in concealment over a 19. It also has a neat modular design.
Those two are both well proven at this point. There are less expensive options out there, but then accessories/magazines/spare parts will be less common so you might actually end up paying more in the long run with those.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
DevonKnobel@reddit
You may have already committed to new pistols (it's been a year or so).
I was considering the Ruger LC9 very closely some 14 years ago though I didn't like the 7+ round limit.
Just this year I found a Ruger MAX 9, which is pretty darn similar, yet it carries 12+1. Anyway I really like it and recommend checking it out for CCW. I found mine for some $350 from Palmetto, or maybe check prices as Wikiarms or whatnot.
Take care -
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thanks. I went with the Ruger SR45. I love it.
twolanevega@reddit
Serious question....Does your family have any input into what they're going to shoot and carry?
I don't mean to come across like a dick, but how about let them find what feels right in their hands. Worst decision I ever made was to pick out a gun for my wife.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Yes, absolutely on the final decision. I give them guidance.
HeliMD205@reddit
You could always get 9mm 1911s . Though they might be a bit on the heavy side for your wife and kid . That way it a platform you already know and have some parts for .
LingonberryNo472@reddit
I like 10mm
amuseboucheplease@reddit
Slight hi-jack of this threads...
why is 9mm ammunition cheaper than the .45 ?
SeismicKrowd@reddit
. 45 ACP +P will knock an assailant off their feet with one round, a 9mm +P takes two rounds to do the same thing. It's comparable to getting hit with a regular household hammer versus a sledge hammer.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thanks. That’s my conclusion, too.
StrawberryAncient433@reddit
Springfield armory
generogue@reddit
Coming from the female perspective and as the child of a man who loves his .45, the 9mm has significantly less recoil which makes it easier for those with smaller bodies to shoot.
I enjoy shooting my dad’s .45s, but I can only stand one or two magazines worth while at the range before the weight of the gun plus the impact of the compression wave tire me out. My 9mm I can run a couple of boxes through.
Similarly, now that he’s in his 70s the 1911s are harder for him to handle and he’s been looking at using a 9mm for his carry piece.
youhearddd@reddit
Wait. He is a 70 year old EDCing?
XerxesCrofter@reddit
The older you get and the more feeble you look, the more you stand out as potential prey to miscreants bent on finding an "easy" victim. Take my word for it.
I'd say that the need to EDC increases rather than decreases with age.
End_Centralization@reddit
My mother carries at 68, nicest woman and you'd never suspect shes carrying a .380
youhearddd@reddit
But why?
Hoplophilia@reddit
Because AARP doesn't offer bodyguard services.
generogue@reddit
For the same reasons anyone younger might want to carry.
SaltBad6605@reddit
That's not unusual in my experience.
The S&W M&P EZ Looks interesting.
Herxheim@reddit
whaddaboudit, whippersnapper? cha-chuck
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
So the 9mm is definitely the way to go for wife & kids. Thank you.
The_walking_man_@reddit
Also something to consider is weight. .45 ammo is twice the weight of 9mm. So being able yo pack and carry twice the amount of ammo is also why I’d lean towards 9mm. Especially for the wife and kids.
generogue@reddit
If you’re looking at starting the kids much before they’re teens, or if any of them are sensitive to loud noises, consider starting with a .22 pistol or even a pellet gun as they make very convincing replicas of actual handguns in pellet gun form now. The pellet gun can be used at home if you have a bit of land and the .22 has minimal kickback and noise.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
This is great advice. I started them on Ruger .22s when they were younger. Now one’s almost an adult & the others are 16.
BisexualCaveman@reddit
As you age, you'll join them in that.
We all do eventually, if we live long enough.
You may well wind up carrying a .22LR if you make it to the right age.
Foxycotin666@reddit
My grandfather carried a .45 after he got home from Vietnam. Somewhere in the 90’s he switched to .22 and .38 special. Caliber ain’t a religion- it’s a lifestyle
Specific-Adagio-8258@reddit
A cold war veteran?
No_Wrangler_5818@reddit
right??? xD
No_Wrangler_5818@reddit
Cold war veteran lol. Just say you were in the military.
SignificanceFew3031@reddit
2 WORLD WARS BABY
PositiveReason812@reddit
Your irrational bias is correct. The USA is footing all the bills to protect Europe, meanwhile Europe calls all the shots (pun) when and where we have to show up, how things are supposed to be done, use German ammo and the French measurement system. USA went from superpower to gullible servant.
My favorite carry gun is a little snub nose .38 revolver that's light, safe, not much recoil, but not accurate. Hitting the 6" targets at 20' away is tough. With the 9mm S&W it's way easier. I shot a .357 but the recoil was pretty wicked.
As others said whatever limitations the 9's have can be overcomeand you still get to have your pick of either more bullets or a smaller gun. Still, I'm getting a .45 mostly so that I don't have to say millimeter anymore. And that's worth it.
Icy_Description_1459@reddit
45 ACP today isn't 45 ACP from 1904, either. 9mm was introduced in 1901 and 45 ACP in 1904. It is 3 years "newer." It's weird to me that people think 9mm is "newer" because the USA changed service pistols from 45 to 9mm. If it had been the other way around, we would think of 45 as "newer."
You can get 9mm Super +P hollowpoint blah blah blah. Guess what, you can also get 45 ACP Super +P+ hollow point etc and make it faster and more powerful. Which is "newer" and "better"? Does it matter?
Like someone else said, ball ammo will always be the deciding factor. It is what you will have more of if shit really hit the fan.
jkeeeevs13@reddit
I carry a 9mm goock with 17+1 with red dot and light. What happeneds if there is a shooter somewhere and he cuts the lights off and all you got is 8 rounds of 45 acp with no dot or light... shitt might as well run and hide
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
That’s fair enough.
BeThrB4U@reddit
9mm > all. Round count, controlled groups, cost, avaliablity and lethality.
45 if you're gonna suppress.
Western_Wonder7149@reddit
Lethality?
Dull-Technician457@reddit
You can only count on the ammo you have if ceap gets real. There will be 100 empty guns for every found stash of ammo. You can also get double stacked 45acp pistols if you want. But that is a bit irrelevant police shootings suggest that once you start a mag dump, they all miss regardless.
I also don't buy the 9mm is just as good bs. Whatever pity dust you sprinkle on a 9mm, can also be sprinkled on a 45
The real thing is though that people don't stockpile high end hollowpoints that cost $2 per round. The stockpile FMJ. Once we are talking ball, 45 wins easily, and we should be talking ball.
Same thing with ARs. I don't like the fast twist barrels for SHTF. The 1:14 20" is what the M193 was designed for and the ss190 was designed for 1:10, so putting either round through a 1:7 barrel degrades the terminal ballistics.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Good points, thank you.
Aurochbull@reddit
I was going to post a wall-o-text as well, but you've gotten a ton of info already. Also, I realize I'm 3 months late to the party.
I just wanted to let you know that, while a decade younger than you, I'm in the same boat. The decision I came to is that the .45 is MY gun. I'm a big dude (6'6", 300lbs+) with huge hands. I can't expect my Glock 21 or 30 to feel right to my wife and kids. Conversely, that "full size" Glock 17/19x/45 will never feel "full size" to me. Regardless of your reason, the .45 is YOUR gun, and is most likely not the best choice for the family as a whole.
My solution was to carry my .45 when it's just me (or just me carrying). If you are all carrying together (SHTF, bad area, etc.), share a similar/identical platform. My choice was the Glock 45 (model, not caliber) for all of us. Same high cap mags, they love it and I'm more than comfortable/proficient with it.
I hope this helps in some way!
BuckABullet@reddit
Well, 9mm is more available at this point, lighter, cheaper, and you can stuff more in the magazine. The 45 hits harder, and staring down that giant muzzle seems to settle people down if they're getting frisky.
At heart, I'm a 9mm man myself. If the 45 were a death ray, then I would be a 45 man, but it isn't. On the numbers it's a bit stouter than 9mm, but not so much so that I would trust a single round of it to end an encounter. If I'm double (or triple) tapping, then capacity becomes an issue. I would prefer 15-17 rounds to 7.
Having said all that, I am in the far worse position of being a prohibited person due to a non-violent 20 year old drug conviction. Cannot get my rights restored without a governor's pardon, which seems unlikely. My safety is entrusted to a Remington 1858 - that's a grand total of five 45's in a single action frame with SLOW reloads...
Kradget@reddit
I like 9mm, as the difference in normal self-defense rounds is very marginal, while 9mm has the edge on round count and (more importantly) size. You're getting a round that's just about as effective but you can carry a few more. It's also usually cheaper from what I can tell.
If you're doing subsonic for some reason, .45 is better, but I consider that an edge case.
If it's just FMJ rounds, I think .45 has the advantage, but like... Why are you storing FMJ instead of defensive rounds?
If you're shooting out of a carbine... Actually, I don't know. I think (but don't have evidence and could easily be wrong) that the 9mm shoots flatter.
PearlButter@reddit
With modern defensive ammunition for 9mm, people will say it’s about on par with 45acp. The ammo does cost more since it’s pretty much specialty ammunition compared to FMJ but you do gain greater capacity (assuming you don’t live in a restrictive state) and a generally lower recoil.
40 S&W has gone defunct.
That said 45acp is fine if that’s what you’re best at using but it would be good to try out 9mm at the range
Suprspike@reddit
40s&w has gone defunct?
I'm not sure what you mean by that...
PearlButter@reddit
40 s&w is half dead.
Suprspike@reddit
I will say that ammo has become more expensive, but the 10mm calibers are alive and kicking. I know this because of the brass we pick up at the range, as well as a few people that have purchased them in the last year.
New people are being lead towards buying 9mm due to ammo availability, but that doesn't mean anything as far as other caliber firearm purchased.
It appears that way on observation, until you realize there were 5.4 million new owners (never before owned a firearm) in 2021, and 8.4 million in 2020, most of them likely buying 9mm with a few buying 223\556 calibers, so the manufacturers started focusing production on those calibers, etc..
As far as this thread goes, I hate the 9mm round, but I also recommend that caliber more often to new shooters.
PearlButter@reddit
10mm or the 40s&w (I know they’re kinda pretty much the same thing but one is softer).
Now I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s gone, but it’s certainly lost considerable popularity when defensive 9mm ammo sets itself higher on the bar with the benefit of increased mag capacity and ease of shooting.
Suprspike@reddit
Agreed on the easy shooting with a 9mm. I reload and shoot high caliber long range. I also am a hunter, so energy and BC are my friends. I feel the same about handguns.
The 40s&w was a compromise after the North Hollywood shootout and the subsequent FBI recommendation of using a 10mm instead of 9mm for stopping power. Problem was, many people cannot handle the recoil of the 10mm auto round. The 40s&w (10mm caliber, smaller cartridge) was invented to bridge the gap. Increase stopping power with lower recoil.
When I said "hate" the 9mm, I really mean it's my least favorite auto cartridge of the 3 commons (9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP) . I always want the best balance of energy + recoil/accuracy + capacity. That's why I like the 40; sacrifice a couple rounds for more energy than a 9mm, but gain capacity over the 45. I like the 10mm as well, but very expensive to shoot even if you reload (about double the powder).
Common range rounds for the 9mm are 115 gr, vs 185 gr for the 40s&w. I know many people who don't prefer the 40 over the 9, but I think that's because they haven't owned or shot one that fits their hand.
The 9mm feeds more reliably than many auto calibers, and you can carry more rounds for the same weight. The only 9mm I personally like that I have though, is actually a carbine. Love that thing. I think that makes good use of the 9mm round, especially with the 147gr projectiles.
SobieskiHorseMaster@reddit
Cold war veteran. So no veteran?
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Read some history & see some of the shenanigans the US got in to during the latter days of the Cold War, particularly in Latin America.
SobieskiHorseMaster@reddit
Yeah that obv. But no Vietnam vet (also cold war period) would call himself a "cold war vet"
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
I was really just making the point that I’m old and was in so long ago that I was there when they switched sidearms, dude. Stuck between Vietnam & the Long War.
KT9Q@reddit
380
Rounds per pound: 47.06
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.13
9mm Luger
Hornady 115gr JHP/XTP
Rounds per pound: 38.10
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.63
.38 Special
Rounds per pound: 34.78
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.88
.357Mag.
Remington UMC 125gr SJHP
Rounds per pound: 30.77
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 3.25
.357Mag.
Handload 158gr JHP
Rounds per pound: 28.07
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 3.56
40S&W
Rounds per pound: 28.07
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 3.56
.44magnum
200gr Hornady XTP HP
Rounds per pound: 22
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.57
.44magnum
240gr LSWC Bullet
Rounds per pound: 19.7
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 5.07
.45ACP
230gr Winchester Ball
Rounds per pound: 21.33
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.69
RifleCalibers
.22 LR
Remington Golden 36gr PHP
Rounds per pound: 133.33
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 0.75
.223/5.56X45
(milsurp) British Radway Green SS109 63gr
Rounds per pound: 37.21
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 2.69
30-30 Winchester (a.k.a. .30WCF)
Winchester Silvertip 170gr flat nose
Rounds per pound: 20.28
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.92
.243Whinchester
75gr Hornady V-max Handloads
Rounds per pound: 22.22
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 4.5
.308 Winchester
Remington UMC 150gr FMJ
Rounds per pound: 19.05
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 5.25
.308 Winchester
168gr BTHP Match Bullet
Rounds per pound: 18.67
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 5.35
7mm Remington Magnum
Winchester 175gr Power Point
Rounds per pound:14.68
Weight per 100 rounds(lbs):6.81
7.62X39
Wolf Steel Case 122gr FMJ
Rounds per pound:27.59
Weight per 100 rounds(lbs):3.63
Shotgun Calibers
12GA 2 3/4" Slug
Federal HI-Shok Slug
Rounds per pound: 10.53
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 9.50
12GA 2 3/4" #4 Shot
Remington Express 4BK
Rounds per pound: 9.30
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 10.75
12GA 2 3/4" #7 1/2 Shot
Federal #7 1/2 Shot
Rounds per pound: 10.53
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 9.75
12GA 2 3/4"00 Buckshot
Federal Express 9 Pellet
Rounds per pound: 9.76
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 10.25
12GA 3" Slug
Federal 3" Rifled Slug
Rounds per pound: 8.89
Weight per 100 rounds (lbs): 11.25
Clam_Diger01@reddit
Honestly now days there’s not a huge difference in ballistics. It’s really more about what you are more comfortable with and you are accurate with. It’s like the saying a bird in hand is worth more than two in the tree. If you are more comfortable and accurate with .45 than any capacity gain you get from 9mm is worthless. If you are better with 9mm any slight advantage you gain from the .45’s heavier weight is worthless. As Wyatt Earp said back in his day that all the good gunfighters only carried 5 rounds (this was in the days before rebounding hammers and transfer bars) because they didn’t need the extra round and extra risk that came with carrying on a loaded chamber with the firing pin on a primer. That’s because they could settle things with 5 shots. That’s why I believe the argument that you need 15 or 19 shots to have a viable defense gun is a bit far fetched. Too many people today want to use a pistol as a primary combat weapon instead of a backup to either get to your rifle or in the event your rifle goes down.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you
Monster_depot311@reddit
My logic is with proper ammunition the expanded wound track for a 9mm hollow point is about the size of a nickel. Plus you have more rounds for the same size gun.
Considering a person forced to draw to defend themselves bu definition will be under stress. Statistically accuracy will suffer significantly vs the accuracy the shooter has during training.
It is also significantly cheaper to shoot more rounds from a 9mm than a 45 ACP. As I am sure you know practice is key to marksmanship.
Many lighter/smaller frame guns have significantly more felt recoil in 45 ACP. Particularly with smaller framed shooters this can affect accuracy and speed of follow up shots.
The 45 ACP certainly carries more energy than many 9mm rounds. We can discuss till the cows come home, and many people do, about individual guns and rounds how that translates into lethality. But self defense isn't about lethality it is ahout stopping the threat. The threat may die in the process but the goal is stopping the threat.
To sum up: I have many guns chambered in many rounds but I shoot 9mm more. Therefore I am more confident in my ability to put rounds on target with 9mm. So that's what I carry. If you put more down range in 45 then carry a 45. Either is more than adequate to stop a threat.
When I recommend a round and gun I suggest 9mm because of capacity but it boils down to whatever you train the most with. If that is 45 then run 45. If it is 9mm then run that.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Good point, thank you.
Wooden_Replacement73@reddit
I am in the same boat discharged 1983. I too have owned a .45 since but now I’m older and losing some control, I’ve switched over to the SIG365 Macro. I do love it BTW I don’t work for sig but check it out
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you
Wooden_Replacement73@reddit
I know it wasn’t your question but I hope it helped.
Any_Werewolf_3691@reddit
Your best chance of surviving a gun fight is to... bring a gun.
Guy was making fun of me because I love my .380 cause it's so easy to carry. He kept going on about how inferior a caliber a 380 is and how .45acp is superior Yada Yada. I let him keep going on for a big before interrupting him and asked "where's your 45 right now?"
Him: "In the nightstand next to my bed."
Me:lifts shirt slightly"I've been resting my hand on my grip for the last 5 minutes and you didn't even notice. What good is a superior firearm if it's too bulky to carry?
...crickets... "I can't argue with that"
2 weeks later, he showed me his new daily carry. It's a 380. He always calls it his BUG piece and immediately tells people his primary is the 45 due to superior stopping power. 😆
Moral of the story: caliber is irrelevant if you can't carry it comfortably in any weather.
Sir Sauer makes excellent clone of the colt mustang in 9mm and 380. The 380 doesn't like HP ammo though. Use ball ammo.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Excellent point, thank you.
7364891@reddit
I see a couple of good answers. The rest miss the point. The question, respectfully, misses the point too.
Your wife and children are unlikely to like what you like. They won’t be comfortable with the same things, so the won’t use them as well. You might as well force them all to drive a stick shift because you like it. So, the question of 9mm vs. .45 is the wrong question for a number of reasons.
First, look at the data…not the ballistics data, the what happens when someone is shot with it data. If you look at the ballistics data, the bottom line is that it doesn’t much matter, practically speaking. Sure, 9mm flies flatter, penetrates better, has larger capacity, has about the same energy with modern loads, and it is easier and faster to get back on target for follow up shots. I don’t know why anyone would not want those advantages, by the way. Yes, the .45 is bigger. The 1911 is a nuisance to clean, much loved hammer, but you can get modern design handguns in .45 that are easier to clean, just like 9mm. You just like it, and that means it’s probably a great choice for YOU.
When you look at the what happens to people when shot by various pistol calibers out in the world, you find that there isn’t much difference between the calibers. .22 does great out on the world, by the way. I think Ellifritz is one really good source.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
One interesting stat. is that he found that 60% of people were incapacitated by one shot with a .22 out in the world, while only 51% of people were incapacitated by one shot from a .45. 47% by the 9mm, just to round that out. But how can that be? Our preconceived ideas about things don’t mesh with that. A rattlesnake is a lot smaller than a bear. A bear is scarier, I think. Your limited question betrays a caliber prejudice you have, and it’s not based on data or science. Ask the wrong question and you may get the wrong answer.
Pistols don’t stop an assailant the way most rifles do. Rifles tend to be higher velocity, and they tear tissue remotely. They make a mess, which is much more effective at stopping people. They rip blood vessels and organs. Pistols poke holes. That’s all they really do. “Stopping power” does not really apply to pistols the way it does rifles. Remember, all you are doing is poking holes with them. Does a projectile .45 inches stop people better than one a little less than half its size? We know the answer, and the answer is no. It doesn’t.
But then why does the .22 of all things seem to stop people better than a .45 for goodness’ sake? The assertion sounds obviously silly. Big is better than small, isn’t it? The punchline is that simplistic, shallow thinking leads us all to wrong conclusions now and then. No one is immune. If someone stabs me in the head with a sword or an ice pick, I’m dead either way. We must fight our own preconceived ideas and look for real answers to the right questions.
Your question isn’t really which of two calibers is better. Your real question, I’m betting, is how can I keep my family safer…. Maybe a handgun won’t make one of your people safer. Maybe one of your people will never shoot a person. Then, maybe a taser with projectile pins might be better for them, or pepper spray. That taser drops people faster than shooting them with a pistol in the torso or extremity, by the way. So, we have to again confront our preconceived beliefs. Is a gun always the right answer? I gave my kids guns too, and I trained them to expert level. I’m just making the point. Guns can stop an attack several ways. You may or may not know that just the sight of a gun stops more attacks than shooting people…and I’m not advocating brandishing guns around. I’m not recommending anything. I’m just stating facts and ideas. Look at the FBI data on this. There’s so much politics involved that you may have to dig for the data, but you’ll see. Caliber is just a very small part of tge pistol equation. Yes, FBI switched to 9mm from .40. It makes sense for them. In reality, cost savings is a huge part of that, but the answer for them is not the same as the answer for others.
I know I’ve gone on too long, but I like the subject and I’m giving you a decent response.
Another aspect of this is that people are generally terrible shots with pistols. Police have been found to be only about 20% accurate in shooting in real life incidents. Young people, even kids, involved in mass shootings tend to be over 90% accurate. Police tend to think they can shoot well. Overall, they can’t. Reality. Soldiers are the same. They train on rifles, and there is still a lot to be desired as far as accuracy goes for most of them, but they are much better with rifles. Qualifying on a pistol does not imply any serious accuracy. It’s simply more difficult to be accurate with a very short barrel on a thing that is only held with the hands, so it’s far less stable, and the sights are more difficult for people. When people think they know how to shoot, they are almost always much harder to teach. Women, overall, rarely seem to have that ego issue. So, they learn better. They just do. Training the person is much much more important than what you put in their hand.
So, anyway, I wonder if you are open and flexible minded enough to embrace the real world data, your people’s real capabilities, and come to the conclusions that will work best for you and yours. I hope so. All the best…
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
This is great. Thank you!
Fit-Violinist-8201@reddit
Wow. Fresh outta the Sahara eh?
AnimalStyle-@reddit
The standards for pistol ammunition are the FBI’s penetration standards of 12-18in in ballistic gel. If they can achieve that, they have enough penetration to incapacitate a target if your shot placement is good. Both 9mm and .45 ACP penetrate enough to be effective.
Both rounds are effective so it comes down to shot placement. Carry what you can shoot better. 9mm is a smaller round, but I can shoot my .45 ACP 1911 as well (if not better) than my 9mm because of the trigger and weight of the gun.
9mm currently has a lot of benefits: high magazine capacity, wide variety of pistols and brands, a ton of range and self defense ammo options, huge aftermarket, massive holster range. 45 ACP has that too, just to a slightly smaller degree.
If you’re going to buy one gun, I’d go 9mm. The market is huge for them, so you can find exactly what you like, ammo tends to be a bit easier to find (and cheaper), and you can get small pistols with high magazine capacities for carrying. If you’re stuck, a Glock 19 is a great all-around pistol. But again, your old .45 is still a good, viable option if it’s the gun you’ve got.
TLDR: both modern 9mm and .45 are good rounds, buy what you like and can shoot well.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you
45321200@reddit
https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
This is great, thank you.
ProvincialPrisoner@reddit
I think the best response I heard in regards to the caliber wars was from Paul Harrell on YouTube. He was specifically referring to guns that he would use during TEOTWAWKI.
The whole adoption of 9 mm had everything largely to do with the FBI and their ballistic tests and records. Same thing as when local law enforcement switch to 40 cal. A lot of places switched back to 9 mm just because it's gotten cheaper. It's a lighter ammunition and the research is shown that it is extremely reliable in both its impact, exit wounds and entry wounds. The 45 is never really had those reliability issues. 9 mm is just as reliable as the 45. You just get a few more rounds in the magazine.
It all really boils down to what you're comfortable with and what you know you can perform with. If you have been using 45 your whole life then 45 sounds perfect for you SHTF.
Now in regards to your wife and kids. I would definitely say let him get to shoot 45, 40 and 9 mm. See how they perform and what they prefer. Find What makes them comfortable in their selection of a firearm.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
Hoplophilia@reddit
230gr going 900fps from a 30oz 1911 recoils at 13.25 fps, 1#/sec, total 6.83 ftlb of energy.
124gr +P going 1050 from a 22oz G17 comes back 16.6 fps, .7#/sec, 5.9 ftlb.
13.5% less recoil energy, but 25.3% faster. 30% less energy per second.
You can run these figures an infinite number ways with gun/bullet/charge weights and velocities, but the point is that "heavier bullet" ≠ "worse recoil."
My carry gun is pretty freaking snappy with 147gr +P, but my 1911 running 239gr @1060 (45 Super) is a joy. I carried it for almost a decade and still do now and then.
Concealable guns will always have more harsh recoil than their respective full-sized kin. Wife and five kids might each have different uses for a handgun. Most good thoughts have already been said here, but to recap:
45 starts big, stays big even with less expensive ball. It can run a 230gr at just sub if you push it hard. 147gr 9mm has the same SD and can also run right at subsonic. If it's a CCW, both will give you exit strategy but the 9mm will give you more game tokens per package size than 45. All of these thoughts are trumped by which platform/chambering you'll train with. If it feels good in the hand and you can afford to buy more ammo than you'll use them the caliber wars are pretty much at a truce.
Unless you're willing to give up your .45 just keep both options open, keep as close to 1k rounds per person of each respective cartridge as you can manage.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Good info, thank you
Three0hHate@reddit
Ballistic technology has come a long way in making 9mm a very effective self defense round. My father was of the same thinking as you, but I was able to point him toward using a 9mm and he hasn’t looked back since.
The concealment, round count, reduced recoil and ease of accessibility is very important. It’s an easy round to shoot and common enough to come across in a SHTF scenario. Many civilians, cops, and military will have 9mm on their person and stockpiled.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you
Ciarrai_IRL@reddit
9mm all day. Plus it's a more common ammo in the event there's ever a (or another) shortage. As someone else recommended, get a 1911 in 9mm. Lastly, while I don't have the data in front of me, I'm sure the reason to switch to 9mm was more than just NATO compliance.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Yeah, there had to be more behind that decision, but NATO compliance is what they told the soldiers when it happened.
andythecat7@reddit
Unpopular opinion, and I dont have military experience, but have you considered 5.7x28 for the wife and kids? And yourself? High capacity, low weight, almost no recoil, fast round. Yes, its smaller but it will still do the job. Although not as plentiful as 9mm, availability has increased 10x in the last few years now that there are 4 main companies manufacturing it. And if youre getting in bulk ive seen it for .25c per round, pretty much same as 9mm. Just wanted to mention it because my mom enjoys shooting it with the low recoil as she has a bad wrist and shoulder and finds it much more manageable with the low weight (a full size 5.7 weighs about as much as a compact 9mm loaded). Not sure ages of the kids but they would find it easy too im sure, and have plenty of rounds in the mag in case accuracy is an issue. Many different pistols, carbines, rifles in this caliber now, with more set to launch this year. With cost and availability no longer an issue, I think it's a good option to consider. Just an opinion.
Between the two you mentioned though, Id go 9mm for sure.
Sean1916@reddit
The issue with what you are suggesting is if the OP or his family is trying to conceal carry it will be much easier with .45 or even more so with 9mm. The 5.7 pistols I know of aren’t really conducive to conceal carrying.
andythecat7@reddit
True for now, but the compact psa rock 5.7 should be launching soon. But also, if this is for prepping, will it even need to be concealed?
Sean1916@reddit
I hadn’t heard about the PSA compact coming, wife isn’t going to be happy with me lol.
The OP didn’t specify what his purpose was behind buying them so I assumed for now this was for daily carrying.
andythecat7@reddit
Yeah there's vids of it from shot show.
And yeah i just assumed cuz this is prepper sub
FutureSynth@reddit
Cold War veteran??? 😂😂
Sean1916@reddit
Depending on where he served during his time I believe they are still considered veterans. There’s a reason so many soldiers were stationed in Europe during the Cold War.
Go_For_Broke442@reddit
More capacity and practically equivalent terminal ballistics for 9mm over 45ACP.
Availability for purchase when things get bad will be equally bad due to both being popular.
Price is a win for 9mm.
Ability to loot ammo from others will likely be a win for 9mm. Aside from the greater 9mm handgun popularity, there's also pistol caliber carbines and large format pistols that are mostly in 9mm as well. Far fewer PCCs are chambered in 45ACP.
For bears and cougars, I'd pick a 10mm instead. Or 44 magnum revolver. So no win to either.
Only reason to pick 45acp in my opinion is if you want to use a suppressor because all 45acp from a sub 6 inch barrel will be subsonic if you aren't shooting +P+. Subsonic 9mm is harder to find since you need special loadings for 124 or 115 grain, or you'll need standard pressure 147 grain.
Aggravating_Signal49@reddit
Hot take: handgun calibers all suck about equally at killing shit. .45 .40, 9mm, .380, doesn't matter. 9mm does the trick just as well as anything else, with the bonus of being able to have 15+ rounds in the magazine.
I still run .45 purely because I like 1911s.
Gloomy-Theory6904@reddit
If you can afford good ammo, 9mm.
If you can't afford good ammo, .45acp
9mm FMJ is lethal, do not get me wrong. But for optimal performance, good self defense ammo is essential.
But .45 ACP cuts a fat hole in a target and it does so with the cheap FMJ rounds.
Mountain_Position_62@reddit
Don't listen to anything espoused in this community firearms related. More than any other community, prepping forums are comically uneducated in regards to firearms. This isn't an attack, it's a fact. Idk how many times I've heard prepping communities espouse "22lr and or a shotgun are the best forearms die shtf, or a viable defensive option because."
No offense, if you need to ask, you're probably not ready to make an investment. This is a no brainer, and I can promise if you're at this stage of ownership, you will make poor investments; we all do! It's nothing personal. Watch YouTube videos by those in the "tacticool" community, not the prepping community, and you'll have ever answer answered that yiu seek firearm related.
MArkansas-254@reddit
My opinion Fwiw, 9mm is enough to stop 99 percent of threats. With Mag capacities of 15 or more, it’s 2 to 1 what a 1911 will carry. On a more practical note, 9mm is a LOT cheaper and much more available. Try a YouTube search for 9mm vs 45 and you’ll get lots of good info. Well, and some bad info, too 🤪
AshhKalash@reddit
First and foremost, both rounds can get the job done so for you personally? If you can get .45 down range accurately, don’t fix what’s broken. The only cons between the two these days is capacity, cheaper to shoot 9mm. More handgun options as well in 9mm, and it is no longer an anemic round. .45 is also a great suppressor host if you decide you’d like to dip your toes in NFA items.
A good 1911 is gonna cost a pretty penny, it’ll be heavier, less capacity unless you spend some money on double stack 1911s, but there’s other .45 handguns out there. If you want .45, I’d say get a Glock in .45 as 1911s are a bit less reliable due to the tighter tolerances but they’re accurate. Changing things you don’t like on your 1911 often will require fitment or sending it off to a smith, changing things you don’t like on a Glock can be done at home so long as you have the right tools.
Fit_Acanthisitta_475@reddit
Wife 9mm or 38super. I carry 1911 in winter
teh-haps@reddit
Colion noir can help you understand https://youtu.be/po4nZTO3ES4
Fheredin@reddit
Well, there's an automatic bias here to be sure.
My beef with .45 is that .357 magnum eats its use-case. It has about the same capacity in most cases, but delivers significantly more foot pounds of energy. If you are willing to sacrifice ammo capacity and carry a large gun with a strong recoil...the magnum fits your use-case better. This argument only gets worse if you allow .357 Sig.
If you're after ammo capacity, the 9mm is the obvious choice. This is why my concealed carry weapon is a 9mm compact automatic and my open carry weapon is a .357 magnum revolver with a 6" barrel. There isn't space for .45 to squeeze in between the two.
Swagaru@reddit
Go look at the ballistics numbers for modern 9mm and .45 defensive loads. They’re basically the same now - hovering around 450 ft lbs of muzzle energy for the spicy stuff.
You get almost double the capacity with a 9mm.
9mm ammo is about half the cost of .45
And lastly: there’s some fantastic metal framed 9mm pistols out now if you like the full metal feel of a 1911. The CZ75 (and it’s variants/clones) was heavily inspired by both the 1911 and Browning Hi Power.
BoxProud4675@reddit
The weight of 100rds of 9mm vs the weight of 50rds .45. I am a fan of both calibers, but if I had to go hump over a few mountains, I’d probably grab the 9mm or 10mm.
greylocke100@reddit
It all depends on what you are preparing for.
Me personally I have firearms in both calibers. And depending on the situation it varies which one I will grab from the safe.
Going hunting? 1911A1 in .45 ACP. Driving to the city? Browning High Power in 9mm. A quick run over to my mother's house? Charter Arms undercover in .38 special loaded with snake shot. Cutting the grass? Old Taurus 82 in .38 special with 3 rounds of snake shot and 3 rounds of 158 gr SJSWCHP. Fishing? In my kayak? An El cheapo Jennings J-22, on my friend's boat a 3" .357 Magnum.
Different firearms for different applications.
If I had to choose 1 or the other exclusively, I would take my 9mm High Power. Ammunition is generally more easily available and less expensive, with higher capacity and lower recoil.
YMMV.
FlamingoJoe1776@reddit
My buddy treed a bear and shot it with a 9mm 17 times, and it was still pissed. My other buddy then shot it twice with a 45, and it fell out of the tree and died within a couple minutes.
corinadoulin@reddit
9mm strictly because the gun can hold more bullets
Reddit_BroZar@reddit
Capacity, cheaper to shoot, a larger variety of firearms. Plus a decent and growing number of PCCs with the same caliber. A modern goto.
TheCookie_Momster@reddit
When the price of bullets skyrocketed a couple years ago 9mm was drastically cheaper than a .45.
Dco777@reddit
The 9mm is easier to shoot, especially for women. New hollow points make them much more effective.
The military uses FMJ. In those. 45 is much superior to 124 gr as in NATO spec ammunition.
Feeding a 9mm is cheaper, and that means you can practice more. It doesn't matter what gun you have, if you can't hit anything with it it's useless.
If you are super comfortable with a .45, and shoot really well with it you can stick with it.
As I said, if you can't hit anything with it, it's not of any use. There are ranges that rent handguns. Try some out unless you have a tiny budget and can't afford anything but to buy a gun itself.
Jimstevens33@reddit
Use what it most common in your area. Example, if you're police service uses 9mm, have a 9mm in your safe. If they use 40, have a 40 in your safe.
Police stations will usually have the most ammo in a small town
jackdawson1049@reddit
Due to the recoil I can put 2 rounds of 9mm on target versus 1 round of .45 in the same time span. Remember, in a defensive situation the goal is to fire two shots at the target in quick succession. Also I can carry more 9mm ammo than .45. These two reasons are why NATO uses the 9mm.
splinteryy@reddit
I use a .40 my hands are big so I need a bigger pistol. The initial stopping power of the hollow point expanding is a big plus.
My wife cannot handle the .45 or the .40 too much recoil for her to put quick rounds on target, so she moved to the 9mm. It's nice and small for her hands, very low recoil.
A_Lost_Desert_Rat@reddit
My first love in handguns is the 1911. Sweetest handgun on earth, God's gift to pistol shooters. My family are Glock Girls, I have/carry Glocks. Standardization within the family really matters. Find a brand/caliber they all do well with and use it. Magazines and ammo will interchange. Lowers costs and logistics overhead. For us it was the Glock 19.
Consider this, in the middle of a fight, do you want to have to remember if the safety goes up or down or if the magazine in your support hand will work in the pistol in your primary hand. Everybody in the household should use the same type/style of handgun, kind of like the military.
drunkideasworkbest@reddit
You imply that I use a safety...but I'm also single, no kids, so not really anyone to worry about messing with it.
harbourhunter@reddit
Consider what was available during Covid
Hint: it wasn’t either of those calibers
Randomized007@reddit
My friends are such haters for loving 22s. Eat metaphorical crow bitches
Randomized007@reddit
I have some bulk of both. But I think the thing that sets them apart is the potential availability. I think if it’s ever the scenario for scavenging for ammo, or reload supplies, I think 9mm will be the easier of the two to find. 🤷♂️
IembraceSaidin@reddit
The 9mm has too much of a pop imo, huge fan of the smooth firing and less dramatic 45mm
Evergreen4Life@reddit
Debate as old as time.
Reife390@reddit
Prefer commonality of ammo, so pretty much all we use in my house is 9 mm. I try to stick with the same guns for the same magazines too. Now with that being said, if you run across a good deal on a gun out of your caliber nothing wrong with picking it up just in case you happen to get some ammo for it.
As far as performance modern rounds the difference between a 9 mm and a 45 is very marginal and most 9 mm have roughly twice the mag capacity of a 45. So my vote is 9 mil.
ThrowawayFuckYourMom@reddit
The big question isn't which is better, one single shot of .45 or one single shot of 9mm. The question is, how available are the rounds to you, how often can you shoot with each, which one do you have more platforms for, and which gun are you training with the most? I prefer 9mm cuz more bullets fit into my pathetic palm, but I'm almost considering getting a .22 pistol. Because lets be real, if I hit you with 15 .22 rounds, you're not walking out of there, I do not care even slightly who you are.
briko3@reddit
Good to have both. For prepping, the thought is that 9mm would be more easily acquired. Higher magazine capacity is nice too.
thefartsock@reddit
get them 9mm you already know the answer why even post?
darth_musturd@reddit
Depends what type of round you’re using. As far as I remember, 9mm hollow point is better than 45 hollow point but if you’re running slugs you’ll want 45. Something like that.
Limp_Possible9674@reddit
Honestly I carry with a LCP II and .380 normally. It’s convenient and I don’t have to adjust my clothing to carry, as long as I have a pocket I’m good.
The best carry gun and round is one you will actually use, and especially for people that want to wear shorts, or even stuff like crop tops or something, a small .380 or 9mm is the only way.
I also have a few 9mm handguns. SHTF, 9mm is the standard for most police and military organizations in NATO countries, and NATO aligned countries. 9mm also allows for much higher capacity in general. 15-20 round mags are possible on both my 9mm handguns.
.45 is not as desirable for me, same with .40. 9mm is good enough, especially if you do ballistics research.
Ultimately you have to do a deep dive into this, and see what you want to do, there’s no easy Reddit comment that can sway your mind in one direction.
3dKleetus@reddit
if you cant kill someone with one shot with either of those then you should practice.
a 22LR can kill a human if well placed.
9mm is significantly more available in stores, which would say more of it is available to loot.
thegreensmith@reddit
With the amount of rounds for 9mm out there there isn't much of a difference, both can hit almost just as hard but you got round count to factor in. Shoot what your comfortable with, I shoot a 9mm Glock and my brother shoots a 45 glock
osirisrebel@reddit
Honestly, there's not enough of a difference for one to be the superior round.
I enjoy my .45 for how it feels in the hand. It's beefy, has a fair amount of weight, and I just overall really enjoy it.
But my 9 holds way more rounds, is a light carry, a good edc. It really just comes down to personal preference, I'm partial to my .45 because it's was my first gun, but anything blowing holes in something is a good choice when it's needed.
HolyGig@reddit
I don't think it matters that much. The ballistics of both are garbage compared to a rifle, so I tend to favor 9mm for the higher round count and cheaper cost. More options to pair magazines with a carbine too, which is a big bonus if you have shooters who are recoil sensitive.
therealharambe420@reddit
I personally would rather have more rounds in my gun rather than larger rounds, that increases my chances of hitting the target.
BigChief302@reddit
incoherently screams something about two world wars
Swamp_Swimmer@reddit
There was at least one study done with US law enforcement personnel measuring accuracy with .45 vs 9mm ammo, and it was conclusive that the lower recoil of the 9mm improved accuracy. Add to that mag capacity and ubiquity of 9mm ammo, and it was a no brainier.
You can get a 9mm 1911 by the way.
fluterschnugen@reddit
I prefer whatever I can find ammo for
preemptivelyprepared@reddit
Suppressed 45 AARP is really nice. Nobody ever said they wished they'd been shot with more ftlbs of energy.
zeepbar@reddit
10mm is my favorite handgun round, but for defense the winner really seems to be wonder nines.
Handguns are sorta shit all around. Shoot whatever you like imo.
OhGreatMoreWhales@reddit
You gained a bias because the US military made it easier for to find ammunition when the need arises in many more parts of the world from the switch to 9mm? Get a life.
BeeThat9351@reddit
The Glock in 9 mm is available in a lot of different form factors (smaller for concealed carry). It is nice to have one design, one operating system/mechanism, and one ammunition in different sizes.
FOlahey@reddit
And you can interoperable the double stacks between frames so you’re not limited to one count
cloudburst93@reddit
Pros of 9mm: Lower recoil, more common or popular, higher capacity magazines
Cons of 9mm: While it is common, because it is popular, it may be harder to acquire both before and after SHTF. Think of toilet paper. It's common and popular, but store shelves were wiped clean during the coof.
45 doesn't really have the 9mm pros and if 9mm is out of stock, so most likely will be 45.
Does one do a better job killing a threat? Probably not. They're both equally inferior to rifle cartridges. No one is gonna magically get killed better by 45 because it's a marginally bigger round. Shot placement and number of shots matters way more.
Plus, you also have to consider every threat will react differently. Some big, beefy guy might be able to take a few hits from either caliber before he succumbs to his injuries. A mentally ill meth addict not even notice getting hit. You could have a guy who looks tough as shit, but turns into a big crybaby the moment his fingernail gets cut of by a bullet.
Helicopter0@reddit
9mm.
Maybe 10mm if you want the versatility to harvest black bears or wild hogs incidentally.
Web_Trauma@reddit
9mm
undercoverliger@reddit
.45 is like 9mm but for men.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Lol
JaniceTaterTot@reddit
Get a 1911 in 9mm
https://www.springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-garrison-handguns/1911-garrison-9mm-handgun/
Sinner72@reddit
10mm is a happy medium between the two, pricy, but a great round.
Mr3cto@reddit
Money. Modern firearms make some powerful 9MM pistols. Obviously not the same as .45 but right up there. .45 is harder to find in my area, 9MM is literally everywhere, hardware stores, sport stores, bell even pawnshops that don’t sell firearms usually have a box or two. Ammos cheaper as well so from a prepper standpoint it’s easier to stack and you stretch the dollar more. Also conceal carry is easier I’ve found with a 9MM pistol
DeFiClark@reddit
Modern performance ammunition makes the old 9 v 45 stopping power argument largely moot. Pluses of the 9 are you can get it into a more concealable package, ammo is cheaper, depending on the firearm it’s generally lower felt recoil (s&w 3914 I’m looking at you) and can be controlled in a lighter pistol. Pluses of the 45 is it’s certainly a more reliable stopper if you live where FMJ is your only option (eg NJ) and you have a slightly better chance of a first round stop. Capacity is often cited as benefit for the 9 but there are excellent high capacity 45s, and gunfights are over in an average 2.8 rounds fired by all parties, so it’s rarely a consideration that’s actually going to make a difference. If 7+ rounds plus reloads of 45 don’t stop the fight you are a fool for not having a carbine.
Soft_Zookeepergame44@reddit
Price and availability are the biggest factor for me. Hard to find cheap 45. 9mm is in every hardware store for $20 a box.
BigBL87@reddit
For prepping, 9mm for capacity, weight savings, ubiquity (most police departments as well as the military use 9mm). Assuming you're going to choose one or the other.
Re: recoil, maybe I'm weird but I actually prefer 45 to 9mm in terms of recoil. If we're speaking purely energy numbers, yes 45 has more recoil, but I find the actual recoil impulse to be less snappy. When shooting 9mm out of a CZ-75b and 45 out of a 1911 (similar weights and weight distribution), I find the 9mm "feels" more snappy and I feel like the muzzle jumps more compared to the 45. I once heard somebody describe the recoil impulses as 9mm is like a weaker person smacking the front of your gun, 45 is like a stronger person pushing back on it. Not sure if it's the pressure levels or what, but I've found that to be pretty true.
3DartsIsTooooMuch@reddit
When TSHTF, 9mm will probably be more readily available.
tuesday3blackday@reddit
You can spend hours researching ballistics but the modern idea is to stick with 9mm. Higher round count and modern pistol ballistics don’t differentiate much besides the calibers. That said carry what you want but in a prepping scenario 9mm is cheaper and more common.
If you already have a .45 I’d say keep buying 45 but also maybe consider buying a few 9mm and buying some cases of 9mm. I like the idea of having a few calibers also. Maybe you keep the 45 for your self primary and also train with the others.
I’d also be worried about replacement parts. Sometimes the pistols will break and non striker fired guns can be cheaper to repair. Atleast with certain CZ
kingofzdom@reddit
9mm: higher capacity, easier to control for a novice shooter
.45 ACP: can probably kill a man hopped-up on something strong in a single, well placed shot. This is actually the reason why .45 was developed: .32 just didn't have enough Umph to take down an African warrior with their pain receptors turned off.
alumpenperletariot@reddit
7 rounds vs 18. Everything else is splitting hairs
TheLastManicorn@reddit
After spending much of an afternoon shooting a 1911 and glock 17 side by side at numerous everyday objects such as fire extinguishers, old cars, lumber etc I became a 9mm convert. We fired various cheap FMJ from both guns over the course of several hours and the 9mm's penetration power was above and beyond the 45. The 45 is good but al.ost everything about the 9mm seemed better.
End_Centralization@reddit
I too, like to shoot trash for science
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Thank you. That seems like an effective way to make a decision.
nagurski03@reddit
The military only uses full metal jacket, non expanding ammo. If you are stuck with FMJ, I could see an argument for going with the larger bullet.
With modern hollowpoint ammo, bullets have gotten really good at expanding. 45 will still expand more than 9mm, but the difference in so called "stopping power" is less now than it has been in the past.
9mm gives you higher capacity, cheaper ammo and less recoil. Less recoil is obviously better for newer shooters but even with experienced shooters, they tend to get more rounds on target more quickly.
Arborcav@reddit
Pistol rounds all do basically the same thing. The advantage of 9mm is it has less recoil for easier follow up shots and more rounds in the mag.thw philosophy of a one shot one kill with a pistol is a pipe dream.
pappyvanwinkle1111@reddit
The 1911s in use dated from the 50s and were hopelessly worn out. Since they needed to be replaced it was a good time to make the switch.
I deployed to Iraq with an Army small arms expert that was in on the selection of the Sig 320 that replaced the M9. He said that with modern ammo you are never under armed with 9mm.
asdf_qwerty27@reddit
With firearms, you as a person will not need to deal with some of the larger scale logistic hurdles of militaries. Use what you are comfortable with, and buy 1000 rounds. Then rotate out of that 1000 when you go to the range. Done.
Now on ammo, while the militaries use 9mm, 5.55mm, and that means it's common, it also means in a war those will be directed towards militaries rather then store shelves. Other less common ammo might be better.
1911 is my favorite pistol and I am a better shot with it then a 9mm. For smaller ammo, I stockpile .22lr and have multiple weapons that use it, including 2 pistols. Again, i am many times more comfortable with them then a 9mm.
For rifles, I have a hunting rifles and .22lr. .308 is as small as my centerfire rifles go, and I don't feel the need for a 5.56.
However, I have friends who were trained professionally on 9mm and 5.56 and have no experience with other caliber. Some can often shoot circles around me with them. I would never tell them to get a .45 unless they really wanted it. For you, I'd recommend one 1911 to have.
Your wife though is another story. Honestly, the women I've known who were not military all really liked revolvers. Specifically, .38 specials. Idk why. Revolvers have the benefit of being stored loaded without worrying about magazine springs. I recommend you get one or two revolvers in .357 magnum, as those can handle 38 special and .38 special +p, while a .38 revolvers can not handle .357. A .357 magnum revolver opens the door to a wide variety of commonly available ammo. These can be stored almost indefinitely loaded in an end table, and others could use it as needed.
AccomplishedInAge@reddit
With lower recoil, more cost efficient ammunition, higher capacity per cubic inch of firearm added to frames that can fit smaller hands for women and children a 9mm is definitely an excellent choice …
Long-Story2017@reddit
What's it being used for? Cause a piddly little 9mm even with 17 rounds aint taking down a big black bear or your standard brown bear. Now a .45 will definitely take out a bear, I've used mine once for that purpose and the bear went down and stayed at round 5. Plus if you want, you can find double stack .45 pistols that will hold 13+1.
Dogtown206@reddit
Pros and cons to both. 45acp’s are sometimes more recoil than smaller framed people want. My wife doesn’t like my 45’s. My 40’s and 9mm’s she does. I think some just for her hand batter. I’m a perfect world all 7 of you and including their spouses having the same caliber is a great plus but to me it’s just personal preference and what feels better in your hand.
mydarkerside@reddit
I'm not a huge gun not, but have a few weapons. My first was a Beretta M9. The main reason I chose that was because it's a military firearm and I figured parts and ammo would be the most readily available.
jedeye121@reddit
Do you already have a .45? I do, but my main rationale for not changing over to 9mm is that I figured I can buy a lot of .45 ammo for what the cost of a good 9mm would cost. Having used both, I’ve never noticed any big differences.
Dry_Atmosphere1500@reddit
I have both but I almost always carry either my G19 or my P365 depending on the weather. I still do carry my 45 Shield sometimes when I feel like it but I’d rather have the extra capacity of 9mm most of the time.
As others have said, as long as you’re a good shot with it it doesn’t really matter what caliber you carry to a certain extent. I wouldn’t trust anything under a .380 personally based on my review of ballistics at Lucky Gunner.
Grandemestizo@reddit
This is a subject where people seem to turn their critical thinking off to justify their choices. People say 9mm is just as effective as .45 but in proper scientific tests the .45 expands to a much larger diameter and therefore creates a much larger wound.
It’s a simple trade off. A .45 caliber pistol will tend to be lower capacity, bigger, and heavier than a 9mm pistol of similar configuration. In exchange you get a bigger hole with each trigger pull.
9mm is an effective cartridge. Most people prefer the smaller/lighter pistols you can get in 9mm and the ammo is cheap. It’s also lower recoil so it’s easier for a novice to shoot accurately.
tinareginamina@reddit
My wife can confidently handle and group with a 9mm. If she used a 45 she wouldn’t be as confident or accurate. Frankly the same goes for me. Accuracy and confidence are more important than pure ballistics to me.
bergsteroj@reddit
Back when the type of round was FMJ, the 45 was general the winner due to larger size being able to create a larger wound. But now, with hollow point being common and reliable, the 9mm makes just as big a wound. So, from an effectiveness stand point, they are basically equal. However, as others have mentioned, 9 tends to be easier to shoot for beginners as well as cheaper ammo.
One difference in the gun itself, most 9mm are double stack with some exceptions. But on average, the grip size tends to be a big bigger to handle the wider magazine. So, depends on the size of a person’s hands. Some people will complain about even looking at a 380. There are a lot of options here for smaller guns. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is what someone is comfortable and confident shoot whether it’s a 1911 in 45 or a 238 in 380.
blue_27@reddit
Higher round capacity and less recoil. Right now, on ammoseek, I'm seeing the cheapest 9mm at 0.15 and .45 at 0.31. We still have to train, but now we have to pay for the ammo.
You are going to find considerably more options to fit 6 different hand sizes between your wife and kids with 9mm versus .45.
The best argument I have for the .45 is the ability to suppress it. For defensive purposes, I would rather have the magazine capacity the 9mm offers, as bad guys usually have friends. I think most people should start shooting with smaller caliber weapons. Hell, start with a .22 and move them on the 9mm if you can.
myearsring@reddit
Weight is a consideration for storage of ammo and carry weight. Also, ballistics have improved dramatically over last 25 yrs and have made 9mm more viable than ever. Finally, the ability to conceal a firearm is easier with 9mm in many cases.
TheSensiblePrepper@reddit
Today's 9mm arent the 9mm of your day. Things have changed a lot actually. Certain 9mm rounds have the energy/impact/stopping power of the older .45s.
The two best examples of this, in my opinion are:
NovX 9mm type ammo that is polymer based and fluted. If you go to this page and click the video link, it shows you how it works. For a cheaper version of the same things, you can get Interceptor, which is what I have a healthy stock of.
Pilgrim Ammunition's Torch 9mm is what my wife and I carry daily in our CCWs. You can see a short video of 3 rounds being shot into a ham here. They are devastating BUT to date, the manufacturer hasn't had a report of a single over penetration. Another brand that is very similar is from Liberty Civil Defense.
certifiedintelligent@reddit
My answer is “whatever you can more reliably put holes in targets with”.
I’ve found that I can put more bullets in more targets with more accuracy in less time in all situations with 9mm than .45. Therefore I stick with 9mm.
TheDreadnought75@reddit
9mm depends on modern bullet technology to be effective. With .45 ACP, even FMJ can do a decent job. Sure, not as good as modern hollow points, but decent.
So if you have access to an unlimited supply of QUALITY 9mm JHPs, it’s all you need. (A lot of JHPs are just garbage, so make sure you have good ones AND have enough barrel length that they work properly.)
For mag capacity, 9mm definitely is the winner. However, the gap narrows quite a bit if you are not talking about concealed carry and an OC as big a pistol as you like.
That said, you shouldn’t be planning on fighting a protracted gun battle with a handgun. For a private citizen, the pistol is designed as a “get off me and leave me alone” weapon. For which 8-10 rounds will be sufficient 90%+ of the time. (Statistically 95% of shootings involve 8 or fewer shots fire.) Generally speaking, people don’t stick around when they are being shot at, or get shot.
I have 9s, 40s, 45s, and even a 380 or two, with varying amounts of defensive and practice ammo for each.
But if I had to pick only one, I’d pick .45. It’s nice to have FMJs that can double as defensive ammo in a pinch. Also, 9mms are everywhere, so if you ever need one if SHTF, you’ll likely be able to pick one up off the ground.
But I’m a big guy and carrying a full sized, all steel 1911 isn’t a big deal for me.
At the end of the day, a handgun is just a marginally effective personal defensive tool. So your choice won’t matter much. But I do believe you’re going to do more damage PER HIT with a .45 than with a 9mm. Given that, I’d rather front load my damage on hits than have a deeper magazine. YMMV.
For the people who say there’s not difference, just think honestly to yourself about which you’d rather be shot with, if you had to get shot by one of them.
Is there enough difference to make a difference? Maybe sometimes. My personal thought is that those sometimes will matter more often than the extra rounds at the bottom of your mag will. Again, YMMV.
Wastelander42@reddit
You could teach your wife and children real self defense. A gun isn't going to make you brave
saabfather@reddit
🤦
RealNormMacdonald@reddit
More bullets in your mags and more flexibility in choosing a firearm.
Mr_Mouthbreather@reddit
I think Paul Harrell has some videos discussing this on his YouTube channel (although I can’t find them now). If I remember correctly, for personal defense it’s really just personal preference. The specific ammo and gun you select will have a bigger overall effect than the caliber.
beadedcock@reddit
Here is a great history of the two rounds. I am a SOF Operator and I carry a GLOCK 36 as an EDC. But for work it is 9mm. But at the end of the day your Shot Placement wins the fight, no matter the round. So practice the basics and keep practicing them.
https://www.snipercountry.com/9mm-vs-45acp/
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Okay, that is great information. Thank you!
beadedcock@reddit
No worries. Get what fits and practice, practice, practice..
SkateIL@reddit
If you like the 1911 style just get one in 9mm. Not enough capacity? Get two. Really want a gun for the apocalypse?Get a revolver in 38/357. Brass will be very valuable.
BebopRocksteady82@reddit
Call me crazy but I still like the .40 caliber round because it seems like the perfect go between of .45 and .9mm. Its faster than the 45 like a 9 but it's heavier than the 9 like the 45
No_Background_5685@reddit
Since no one else has brought it up, 9mm is convenient because of the Glock platform. You can buy a 9mm carbine/AR-9 and a 9mm Glock, and use all the same rounds and magazines.
Obviously a 9 won't compete with an AR-15 for range or penetration, but for a stable short-medium range platform, the compatibility with the side arm can't be beat for a number of reasons.
slipperyr1mm34@reddit
Roll with what you like. 9mm isn’t weaksauce, just the same as .45 isn’t an all powerful death ray. Get what you shoot the best and don’t overthink it.
Grab yourself a whole bunch of quality modern bonded hollow points, a few extra mags, and carry away.
EffinBob@reddit
I have both, but I carry a .45. My wife carries a 9 mm. At the end of the day you need to pick a weapon they'll actually carry. A weapon left at home for any reason is rather useless. So take them to a range that rents firearms and see what is most comfortable for them.
mikenkansas2@reddit
While I have .45's and 9 mm's I carry .40's just because.
My general feeling is that while a 9mm or a .40 likely will expand a .45 will never contract.
Slow down, aim, squeeze... mag dumps are panic dumps, "to whom it may concern" dumps.
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
I should also mention how I picture using the pistols. While SHTF is always in the back of my mind, my primary concerns are post-hurricane looters or a shooter in a public place like the mall or on my campus. For SHTF, it will literally become a sidearm while I carry a long gun for primary use.
bunkerburner@reddit
I learned to shoot on a .45 1911. I LOVE that sidearm… However, for me the Sig P365 XMacro TacOps has become my EDC sidearm of choice. For the Mrs. it’s the P365 Nitron Micro, and for my kiddo, it’s my old Astra 2000 Cub (.22 short w/ hollow points). This gives each of us a gun we can easily handle, land reasonably accurate groups at reasonable defensive ranges and at a recoil level that the Mrs. and the kiddo can handle. The upside of this is that they like to shoot them and carrying them is very little hassle. Mrs. loved her “girly” Glock (because they came in all those colors) but the Sig Micro was an easy switch as soon as she shot it.
She had them both on the bench, and I could see her wrinkle her nose and lips up as she looked at them back and forth. I could see her thinking, “I really like this handgun but I like the way this Glock looks.” Funny
J701PR4@reddit (OP)
Lol. Thanks.
SteelPatriot2000@reddit
If you're looking for ammo during a shtf situation that I would go with the 9 mm, it's more common to find and I like it myself.