Oh yeah for certain, especially till 1300's they didn't even had proper records, and even after that records were held but they were still kinda slacky. Like not the "imperial kind" you would imagine or expect. When we say "imperial level record holding" we imagine like roman level insane autistic record holding lmao, ottoman's were nothing like that though
Yes, and up there we were focusing on the "on paper" part, obviously. Basically the record holding, nothing on other aspects so idk what's your point tbh
My points is, obviously, that Romans had slave economy and had no paper. They didn't have the need or the means to hold proper records. They are a poor example for good record holding. China is good example.
it was even worse back then, you also had bosniak muslims that believe Muhammad is the Holy spirit and muslims would invite priests to do baptisms for health and it even got to the point of it being a tradition for each new ship in the navy to be sanctified by the patriarch, shit was wild
In turkey people dont eat even the non-Muslim, but to be honest there is basically no production for the pork so it’s not easy to eat it unless you go abroad
Nope. Only 60% of Anatolia in the Ottoman times were Muslim. And they were not proud of it, they were on the lighter side in Islam thanks to bektasism.
And where do you see pork in the picture? There are 16 Bulgarian dishes only one , lukanka/salama is made of pork. So stupid, yes your food cuisine is mainly originated from ottoman, take it as u will, dumb.ss.
It's response to Balkaners when you (on daily basis) claim how Turks had no cuisine, no culture, no identity, and that you learned us to cook food. You both go around claiming how you were exterminated for 600 years, but then you come yapping about "shared culture". We didn't share anything, you were being mass exterminated by us monsters, remember? Stick to one narrative
We are well aware of foreign influence on Turkish and Ottoman culture. But it was primarily Perso-Arabic. They had a way bigger influence than you ever did. Religious influence from Arabic and civilizational influence from Persian on Ottoman culture can not be understated. And atleast Persian cuisine is absolutely delicious, not like your crappy sarmale, cevapi, burek, who make us want to vomit
The notion that the Ottomans couldn't have adopted cuisine from the locals, but that it's only a one way street, is ridiculous.
This is a legendary answer and very good way to explain it. Yes, these Turks and Ottoman fans act like the Balkans were some undiscovered land with people living in caves before the Ottomans enslaved it.
Our lovely turkish nationalists must realize that Bulgaria and Greece were empires and shaping the culture of that part of tje world, looong before the Ottomans even existed. Who says that they didn't see dishes or even get ideas about something else from us? Similar how they act like Turks are not so middle eastern and show us examples about their actors looking like Slavs. Why do you think these people look like Slavs?
In this very comment section you have multiple people claiming Turks did not have food in Central Asia, and how Turkish food is "stolen" from everyone else. Not just that. On daily basis you blame every single one of your problems on Turks, on daily basis you claim that Turkish culture is "stolen", that Turkish identity is "fake", your weird Hitlerite obsession with DNA
Take it easy man, aswe all see most of the dishes have Turkish names and
with some varieties are in the Balkans.Not a big deal, food is food and it must be tasty and that's all that matters.
While it is true that Turkic people of Anatolia diverged more than those that stayed in Central Asia, had more outside influence etc. I don't see how anyone could claim that Turks themselves have "no history" due to this.
Each culture is a composite of many influences and that's not "stealing". What Turkic tribes found in Anatolia and the Balkans is a part of Turkish culture just as much as anything they kept from Central Asia.
Forcing people to change their faith and become muslim or get beheaded?
Kidnap children out of their homes and make them janissaries
The Jenissary corps was primarily formed through the devşirme system, a "child levy" where the Ottoman Empire forcibly took young, Christian boys (often between 8 and 20 years old) from their families in the Balkan provinces. They were forcibly converted to Islam and strictly indoctrinated with unyielding loyalty to the Sultan. Because they were considered the Sultan's "slaves," early Janissaries were not permitted to marry or have children of their own, ensuring their total dedication to the military.
Status as Rayah: Bulgarians were treated as second-class citizens (called rayah, meaning "flock" or "cattle"). They were denied political representation, owned property under strict conditions, and faced severe restrictions on their religion and culture.
Yes, second class citizens sounds so nice... And the only way to become considered as something better than just "cattle" was to convert to islam. This really sounds very peaceful, you're right the Ottoman empire treated the Balkans with respect and love.
A lot of Greeks and Armenians were able to become wealthy merchants without converting to Islam or losing their identity. It doesn't sound like slavery to me
Yes thats because the average Turk couldnt even write his name until 1925 and the entire Empire relied on Christian minorities for pretty much the entire economy and industry and commercial sector
Christian minorities, despite being second class citizens, dominated commercial and merchant marine sectors and later industry. The Ottoman Empire economy was build around taxation of these Christian minorities so they allowed and encouraged their financial growth. Our ancestors were second class citizens under the Sublime Porte and Ottoman state, same as your Turkish peasant ancestors, despite your ultranationalism blinding you
As opposed to the dude who forced people to change their faith and become Christian or get beheaded? Or did you think Boris just asked folks nicely to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior?
Medieval history is full of practices, violent and otherwise, that are indefensible by modern standards. You're just hooked on the Ottoman Empire because you've been told for years that you need to be righteously outraged about that (and nothing else).
Except the Ottomans behaviour and "principles" lasted way longer than the brutish Medieval times, and well into the late 19th century when other countries were already in the Industrial age.
Also in a way, it's one thing to unite and convert people that were living in tribes, without any system, totally different to destroy an already established country and culture. And as you said it yourself - one thing for that to have happened in the backward and fked up times in the 7th and 8th century, totally different to have happened in the 18th and 19th century... Look how London or the US looked back then, and compare to how people on the Balkans and the Ottoman empire were living.
Dervisme in the empire was abolished by the end of the 16th century. For comparison, slavery in the US lasted until the 1860s, and segregation ended in the 1950s.
It's also funny because the Ottoman empire was multicultural. How do they know a food they claim was invented by a Turk and not a Serbian, a Bulgarian or a Greek?
It didn't say turk but ottoman. Most of the dishes on the picture already have turkish names such as kavurma, sarma etc. and some of them middle eastern cusine. So yeah technically those dishes are ottoman and they spread those dishes to balkan region.
Almost anything that is created in the Ottoman times were under government control and supervision. So its not far fetched to say that some dishes wouldnt exist without the Ottomans.
well, og image says "ottoman dishes", not turkish. if it was a multicultural empire, you can easily call it ottoman food and it would cover everyone lol
Wrong. The Turks are an absolutely special case, through their very genesis.
The original Turkic peoples were nomads with not a lot of physical culture. They made for good conquerers, so they picked up stuff from every place they conquered, and created an imperial, Ottoman culture. The modern Turks see themselves as the inheritors of those nomadic conquerors, yet try to argue everything within the former Ottoman empire is Turkish/Turkic.
Ottomans basically stole most of their cuisine from the byzantines and the neighboring countries. Central Asia, the place Turks came from isn’t known for its gastronomy. Most of the stuff they ate before they invaded the region was 💩.
This garbage take isn't any different from the one above. But atleast thanks for showing how deluded you are "Turks had nothing they ate nothing everything they have they stole from us"
You are the ones claiming on daily basis how Turkish culture is "stolen from everyone else", how the Turkish identity is "fake", how Turkish foods are "infact stolen from others" and such crap
Ayran, yoghurt and baked goods like Pesmet are present even today's Mongolian Cuisine. It is very probable that Turks used to consume ayran, yoghurt and fried dough before arriving in Anatolia.
one of the reasons why balkans will forever be "balkans" are things like these.i saw belgians and the french bantering and joking about french fries along with other western europeans.nobody got butthurt over it.but the balkans,heated arguments can start over food and food origin.idiotic.
I love the fact that by Ottoman people think it was some Seljuk invaders and not the locals. None of these foods are originally Central Asian, which proves that they existed locally before
Yes, equally. In fact, the Turkish influence was far less than the Armenian one if you are going to go into the primordialistic details. The Ottoman elites, however, are a different thing and believing an elite to be from a certain ethnicity is just nationalistic circlejerking. I like Timur for putting the Bayezid in his place, I see neither of the figures as Turks. Timur was Timur and Bayezdi was Bayezid
What part of unitary state, let alone empire anatomy don't you understand?
Talk to me when you have an internationally published dissertation and couple of articles on PHd level in the domains of history, political stufies or intl. rel.
Not gonna dox myself but since we’re measuring dicks, I have a masters in early modern history from a top-100 university, 3/4 into a fully funded PhD in early modern history, and multiple publications. Judging by your level of English, whatever shithole institution gave you your accreditation needs to be audited.
‘I like Timur for putting the Bayezid in his place’ brother take an English class before you veer into things that are too hard to comprehend. You just spew terms you don’t understand, to defend an asinine take. The mere fact that the language of the central state and administration was Ottoman Turkish is enough to invalidate your statements.
I don’t know what purpose your deranged comments might serve, though they are par for the course when dealing with people of your ilk and origin.
So you're a MSc tryna cosplay PHd compensating with language assets. Cool, cool. I mean if that fancies your Napoleon complex, my "Ottoman palace Turkish=Commoner Turkish hurr durr" friend.
Even a teenager knows that history master’s degrees are MAs. This is who I’ve been arguing with…
I never said Ottoman palace Turkish = commoner Turkish, which is a laughable non sequitur. You’re grasping at (imaginary) straws. It’s common knowledge that the Ottoman state incorporated a variety of influences but to assert that they each had equal footing with Turkish influences is astonishing. There were clear subordination and hierarchy systems in place throughout, in place to maintain the Turkish character of the central state. If anyone has paid you to argue otherwise, you are one hell of a con artist, you’d make a great street vendor in Istanbul.
FWIW ‘fancy ones complex’ is not an expression that means anything in English. Whether you live in Turkey or in Germany, I’m sure there are plenty of free resources to tap into in order to work on your English. Don’t hesitate. DM me if you want some help.
Oh and you’re the one who brought up qualifications, so might want to look in the mirror for any complexes.
Eh well, disregarding all domains I emphasized as well as your bs argument, you, my friend, need to work on finalizing your PHd before arguing your non equals on the internet. Chop, chop. That dissertation ain't gonna write itself, if there actually is one on the way.
Interesting that you have no semblance of an actual argument to offer at any point.
Oh and of course, matching your imaginary PhD and publications (done with elementary school level English). With your MSc in history as well!
https://www.languagecourse.net/schools--turkey/courses-english this can be useful. my DMs are open too if you need private tutoring, but you’d have to pay a lot.
I ain't dumb enough to pour years of advanced studies on a disciple. Let alone don't have time to argue a blabbermouth who is yet to defend his imaginary dissertation on that discipline. Finish your shit and earn your word
Nomads moved with their cattle, horses, tents, tribes, hundreds of Km every year. If a nomad plants seeds for cabbage in spring he wouldn't be there in the autumn to harvest that cabbage...
Post examples of turkish permanent settlements from the time period on the south of Ural river. You cannot. And it was generational thing. The people that remained, didn't come to Anatolia obviously.
When you trade for grain or cabbage, the peoples that already cultivate grain and cabbage for centiroes before you first arrived, have been eating food made out of those for centuries before.
Turks were mostly nomad in the sense that they lived in different places during winter and summer. Not like wandering all the time. Highlands for grass for the animals in summer, towns to stay warm in winter. Following the same route every year.
You are conflating stuff from 17th century with things hapoening in the 13th, 14th, 15th... Anachronistically projecting backwards things to suite your fantasies.
Anyways this "discussion" is pointless. Try that bullshit on some western liberal clown or on semi illiterate anericans.
His beylik was the size of half a province. He never seen Iran in his life, not even in his dreams. And many of his successors fought losing wars in the mountains and never expanded there.
Its irrelevant. 13th century of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ is the time period from 1201. until 1300. 17th is from 1601. til 1700..
Whatever pastry you imagine filled with minced pork, or dock leaves stuffed with minced entrals and chopped liver, that some clown invented, it was already there fir more than a millenia before.
Same with baths and waterworks, that turks didn't know how to use in Tsarigrad before bringing in engineers and waterworks operators from Belgrade...
You can lie to yourself abd to dumb anericans, abd western dekusional liberals. Not to me.
Your retard ass thinks being nomadic means moving countries every season, they did agriculture and it was big part of their cousine ur talking up your arse
ur argument is totaly wrong it doesnt have to be nomadic turkic to be a ottoman dish also bulgarians use pork bc they are christian for exp turks also eat kavurma but they dont make with pork
There was this empire that owned Balkans and Anatolia for centuries before first turk rode into Anatolia from centeal Asia. That empire was also known for agriculture, breads, baths, masonry ovens, and many other things settled people do while nomads don't.
I can't know who invented which food but half of the dishes on the list have literally Turkish names. Like words that we still use daily and also as names for the same dishes. Eg sarmi, we call it sarma and it means "rollings".
Well, ottoman included all a lot of people and cultures over time, not just modern Turks. The issue perhaps is that Turks think ottoman culture == Turkish origins and nothing else. Fact is slightly different imo. If turkik people influenced the Balkans in the ottoman empire, then the Balkans also I fluenced the Turks.
You can have a dish/recipe from a ottoman province that spreads through the empire but that wouldnt make them turkish. They would still be dishes from that region
Ottoman cuisine you call is a palace cuisine, and just like any other palace cuisines, it is defined by the complexity of dishes, due to money, time, talent, and ingredients go through capitals. Hence, palace cuisines are defined by extra processes and stages of cooking.
Most importantly, palace cuisines are notable at bringing chefs from different parts of their respective countries to enrich the taste levels.
Why do we have again this stupid conversation? The region has a shared history, so it's normal to have overlap on many dishes due to the cultural exchanges and availability of resources, so tracing the source it's almost straight impossible and irrelevant.
Another thing you didn't pay attention is about the recipes, almost all these recipes now are modern adaptation in many cases due to the availability of new spices and ingredients anytime over the year, and I find this very awesome.
You need to read my comment as whole. I said that due to shared history is almost impossible to trace the original inventor location, so the discussion is stupid. Also, it doesn’t matter anyway, the current recipes are modern reinterpretations.
I mean yeah but people fail to realize ottoman empire wasn't a turkish, or any other ethnic, state. That's a nationalistic perspecfive therefore it's anachronistic and historically erroneous. Ottomans was a mix of many cultures but if you wanna pinpoint these foods' source most of them are levantine/mesopotamian
Yes, we all know that. Using the word Byzantine is just a an easy way to distinguish the Eastern Empire. It's not that big of a deal, everyone knows what someone means when they say Byzantine. Words are all made up by humans, making new ones so its easier to communicate a specific concept is fine.
It is a big deal since such branding helps to alienate a big part of history of Rome and disables us to understand legal reasons of centuries old wars among Europeans. Without naming it correctly we can not explain European history. Those are hanging in the air with that made up word.
Yeah, that you mentioned is the excuse, but "East-Rome" or "Nea Roma" is just serves the exact same purpose and sounds correct since those people also called it like those for centuries.
Legitimisation and bastardisation is problem. It's not as innocent as you said, sorry.
Baltic cuisine is great, you just need to know what to get. I'd recommend the smoked pig ears, but that's probably not down your alley (honest take, they're a fabulous beer snack).
We have many more options as mezes for the nights that stolen away from the skies*, mate.
Smoked pig ears sounds good, since smoking makes everything tasty, but i suggest you to ask for "meze" tray if you hit the local tavern. And i highly suggest you to end up that night at a Kokoreç stand, if you manage to make it to "our alley".
You'd be surprised with the complexity of the cusine. Its usually overwhelming for the salad guys.
Most have reached their modern forms in the last 300 years, with only plants from the New World (tomatoes, potatoes, etc.) shaping modern cuisine.
Furthermore, Istanbul, being the center of the empire, was the center of its culinary culture.
So yes, a large part of the food culture is an Ottoman legacy.
But that doesn't mean other countries don't have a food culture.
For example, yes, baklava has reached its final form in Istanbul, but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as Greek baklava. Greek baklava is a different dessert from the Turkish style, made with cinnamon and honey.
Is he wrong tho? If he were to claim that these are "Turkic", he would be completely wrong. But Ottoman, yeah, of course. It spanned across very different geographies, cultures and naturally gastronomical elements. So the people of Ottoman Empire, whether they'd be Turkish, Greek, Armenian, Slavic or Arabic, learned from each other, experimented with stuff they've learned and came up with new dishes. Just examine the journey of Köfte. Turks learned it from the Persians, then they created our own version, which they brought to Balkans, there it transformed again and became Ćevapi, became even better, and then via Balkan Turks, it came back to Turkey and transformed again. So it belongs to the people. And that's why I'd confidently put this "Ottoman region" cuisine in top spot in the whole world. Turkish + Greek + Lebanese + Bosnia + Syria, damn it's just built different.
I think the objection here is the term “ottoman”, which is not a friendly, unifying term but rather a harkening back to a period of Turkish domination. Not to mention that it claims credit for cuisines that predated the Ottoman Empire.
The unifying term would be “Balkan cuisine” which also perfectly well captures all the nuances of the region.
How are called the BeefLivers with onions in turkish?
Arnaut Cigerli… meaning the ottomans might have spread it, but the dish is originally from Albania… like the Ebasan Tavasi…
Yes, but only because I'd classify any cuisine regularly eaten by the people living inside a nation as that nation's cuisine.
And the main reason why the balkan natioms have similar food is because they lived under the same empire for so long and interacted with each other so much.
The Balkan region has been heavily influenced by Turkish cuisine. However, Turkish cuisine has also been influenced by the Balkans. We are not unaware of the origins of any of the dishes mentioned above that have Turkish names. For example, Sarmi-Sarma actually comes from the act of wrapping (sarma). It is still made in Central Asia. The kavurma dish also comes from the act of roasting (kavurma). This dish is also still made in Central Asia. Some desserts and dishes have palace origins, and we can find their origins. Nomads are skilled at fermenting milk, therefore many dairy products and dishes made with yogurt show Turkish influence (not all, though). The rest are nationalistic bullies. Nobody is saying that the Balkans have no food culture. There are many dishes in the Balkans that are not found in Turkish cuisine. These have nothing to do with the Turks.
I'm sure Bulgarians invented them but decided to call them Turkish names instead of Bulgarian because... I don't know maybe they like the sound of the language or some shit. Whatever makes you sleep at night
All of these were invented in the last 500 years or so. Some of them have ingredients that couldn't even be found in the old world. You seriously think they are ancient?
By the way you can take out all the foods that also exist in the balkan cuisine from Turkish cuisine and it still would be one of the best in the world. I would say just the food we came up with in the last 100 years is enough to destroy you. Don't get cocky
Shopska salata at least was invented during the communist period. Tarator / Snezhanka are ancient universal dishes with variations served everywhere from the Baltics to India. So are meatballs - the word "kyufte" is in fact Persian, "kebab" is arabic believe.
We certainly have dishes in our cuisine that we consider Ottoman origin e.g. Baklava, doner. Others, such as lyutenitsa, would have originated during the Ottoman empire but we don't think of them as Ottoman simply because we don't like the Turkish variations.
Either way, we regard our cuisine as being sister to Turkish and other Balkan cuisines - I'm not even sure what the argument is here.
Are you really going to claim that 600 years of forceful occupation and genocide left some trace on local cultures and communities one way or another? This is so hard to believe.
I am starting to think that Indians speaking English proves that Britain influenced it. /s
Lol. People seem to forget that both, Serbia and Bulgaria, had empires stretching over most of the Balkan Peninsula. And, before them, there was the Byzantine Empire
Turks especially, they really seem to forget this - 10000%. And we were already shaping the culture on the peninsula looong before the Ottomans even existed.
But no, apparently we lived in caves and huts before the Ottomans came. They act like they discovered America, or something...
Isn't it funny how turk nationalist are ready to claim all the things they like as an ottoman heritage, but wouldn't say a word why the balkans are one of the poorest regions of Europe. That definitely can't be a direct result of their backwards empire failing at government. If you ask who came with the idea to cut cucumbers and tomatoes and put them in a bowl - that can be noone else but the ottomans.
Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural empire. Every corner of it shared some aspects of its culture with other parts. Modern Turkish cuisine is a fusion of Persian, Levantine, North African, Caucasian, Mediterranean (Cretan, Cypriot etc.), Turkic, Greek and Balkan cuisines.
Yes, they were "Ottoman dishes" in so far as Ottoman dishes were an amalgam of its constituent cultures. It is really hard to pinpoint an exact origin for most if not all the dishes in these regions because they were all so homogenized throughout the realm.
Ethnic pride is so 19th century. Being proud of a medieval empire owned by a family (Ottomans) is equally stupid today.
Collective creation produced these culinary traditions. Using a unifying term like "Balkan cuisine" accurately reflects this shared heritage. Food must serve as a bridge for regional unity rather than a tool for division.
Cross-cultural integration defined the urban centers of our region for centuries. For example, Ottoman Turks regularly interacted with Greek and Armenian tavern proprietors, adopting diverse meze preparations from them. The Turks subsequently integrated these dishes into their own routines, contributing unique gastronomic modifications and embedding them within broader cultural practices.
The evolution of midye dolma illustrates this synthesis. Turkish populations probably learned the preparation of stuffed mussels from Greeks, an exchange that likely began before the Ottoman era. Over subsequent centuries, Turkish cooks adapted the recipe, transforming it into the variation prevalent today.
Gastronomy also functioned as an active mechanism for social cohesion across religious boundaries. During the fasting month of Ramadan, Ottoman Greek tavern owners in worked to maintain commercial and social ties with their Muslim patrons. They sent elaborate dishes, historically referred to as "unutma beni dolması" (forget-me-not dolma), directly to their customers' homes. Cooks often prepared complex, labor-intensive recipes for this purpose, specifically mackarel dolma, which you need to stuff the fish meticolously with rice from its mouth with tweezers, so that its body will remain intact.
So, let's celebrate ourselves instead of bickering like children because Balkan gastronomy stands as a historical record of cohabitation. Attempting to compartmentalize our shared history into modern national borders misrepresents the past. Acknowledging our joint authorship of the Balkan cuisine can provide a framework for mutual respect and cultural solidarity.
All these comparisons. In other subs, Eastern Thrace in Turkey gets compared to Bulgaria, and so on. Just stop it. Similar things exist, but that doesn't mean any single country gets to claim them exclusively for itself. Anyway, who is posting all this stuff? In real life, I don't know a single Turk who comes up with comparisons like these.
I very strongly doubt that these posts come from Turks.
Turks were nomadic people stemming from a resource scarce diet, desert style tundra environment. In my opinion, they didnt invent close to nothing but copied all the dishes from the relevant regions they occupied. Slapping Turkish names on it doesnt make it Turkish you know.
He's half correct. The cuisine isn't national, it's regional. A lot of the dishes evolved during Ottoman times, but even more than you would expect predate the Ottomans and go back to Byzantine, Roman, Greek, Persian or even the Bronze Age.
Rasputin_Offical@reddit
Ottoman lands were diverse af and they all lived together for long centuries so it wouldnt be weird that their dishes mixing up over time
AdSignificant6748@reddit
Plus their record keeping was so shit nobody will ever know who invented which dish anyway
Rasputin_Offical@reddit
Oh yeah for certain, especially till 1300's they didn't even had proper records, and even after that records were held but they were still kinda slacky. Like not the "imperial kind" you would imagine or expect. When we say "imperial level record holding" we imagine like roman level insane autistic record holding lmao, ottoman's were nothing like that though
Apostrophe13@reddit
Rome was a slave economy without paper. If you want obsessive bureaucracy, you look at China.
Rasputin_Offical@reddit
Yes, and up there we were focusing on the "on paper" part, obviously. Basically the record holding, nothing on other aspects so idk what's your point tbh
Apostrophe13@reddit
My points is, obviously, that Romans had slave economy and had no paper. They didn't have the need or the means to hold proper records. They are a poor example for good record holding. China is good example.
int23_t@reddit
till 1300's? Ottomans began existin in 1300s lol what number did you typo
Rasputin_Offical@reddit
Thanks lol, I was typing quick and sending it away. Didn't even notice it
MechoThePuh@reddit
So the otomans were mostly eating pork? I thought they were proud muslims
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
To be fair the majority of Balkan muslims eat pork and drink alcohol. Not sure about the european part of Turkey but certainly in Bosnia and Bulgaria.
MechoThePuh@reddit
That’s true but I highly doubt it was like that during otoman times
BRM_the_monkey_man@reddit
it was even worse back then, you also had bosniak muslims that believe Muhammad is the Holy spirit and muslims would invite priests to do baptisms for health and it even got to the point of it being a tradition for each new ship in the navy to be sanctified by the patriarch, shit was wild
Effective-Builder-62@reddit
Bosnian muslims even went to orthodox priests to get baptised during ottoman times.
Source:
https://dokumen.pub/the-bosnian-church-a-new-interpretation-a-study-of-the-bosnian-church-and-its-place-in-state-and-society-from-the-13th-to-the-15th-centuries-0914710036-9780914710035.html
Organic-Ad-5058@reddit
It was exactly like that
Own_Organization156@reddit
As bosnian we do drink but we dont eat pork
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
Possibly the people you know don’t, the people I know do.
Own_Organization156@reddit
Bosnians serbs and bosnians croats do but literally even bosniak ateist i know at worse tried it once and never ate it again
ephesusa@reddit
In turkey people dont eat even the non-Muslim, but to be honest there is basically no production for the pork so it’s not easy to eat it unless you go abroad
Hemso68@reddit
Turkey produces a shitton of pork
ephesusa@reddit
Ummm no.
https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/pig-meat/reporter/tur
Hemso68@reddit
mb
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
In Bosnia that’s true about alcohol, but certainly not about pork.
Glass-Evidence-4849@reddit
They eat pork, not all Bosnian muslims for sure, but I've personally known a lot more that do.
xclrz@reddit
Same, idc
CrazyBosanchero@reddit
I can approve.
ahmetonel@reddit
nowhere in Türkiye eats pork
name---@reddit
Some villages do eat wild boar. You‘d be stupid not to with how many of the bastards are in the mountains.
Ninevolts@reddit
Nope. Only 60% of Anatolia in the Ottoman times were Muslim. And they were not proud of it, they were on the lighter side in Islam thanks to bektasism.
South-Fudge-1550@reddit
slapping pork on random meals doesnt make it a pork meal nor yours😂
bigelcid@reddit
Slapping a different name onto it doesn't make it yours either.
Level-Basil-7394@reddit
And where do you see pork in the picture? There are 16 Bulgarian dishes only one , lukanka/salama is made of pork. So stupid, yes your food cuisine is mainly originated from ottoman, take it as u will, dumb.ss.
Zabeworldss@reddit
I'm pretty sure you can cook these without any prok or variant.
nicname357@reddit
maybe they used another kind off meat? and no they werent that strict over regular folks life
herhangibirperson@reddit
It's response to Balkaners when you (on daily basis) claim how Turks had no cuisine, no culture, no identity, and that you learned us to cook food. You both go around claiming how you were exterminated for 600 years, but then you come yapping about "shared culture". We didn't share anything, you were being mass exterminated by us monsters, remember? Stick to one narrative
We are well aware of foreign influence on Turkish and Ottoman culture. But it was primarily Perso-Arabic. They had a way bigger influence than you ever did. Religious influence from Arabic and civilizational influence from Persian on Ottoman culture can not be understated. And atleast Persian cuisine is absolutely delicious, not like your crappy sarmale, cevapi, burek, who make us want to vomit
FantasticQuartet@reddit
The notion that the Ottomans couldn't have adopted cuisine from the locals, but that it's only a one way street, is ridiculous
dwartbg9@reddit
This is a legendary answer and very good way to explain it. Yes, these Turks and Ottoman fans act like the Balkans were some undiscovered land with people living in caves before the Ottomans enslaved it.
Our lovely turkish nationalists must realize that Bulgaria and Greece were empires and shaping the culture of that part of tje world, looong before the Ottomans even existed. Who says that they didn't see dishes or even get ideas about something else from us? Similar how they act like Turks are not so middle eastern and show us examples about their actors looking like Slavs. Why do you think these people look like Slavs?
herhangibirperson@reddit
In this very comment section you have multiple people claiming Turks did not have food in Central Asia, and how Turkish food is "stolen" from everyone else. Not just that. On daily basis you blame every single one of your problems on Turks, on daily basis you claim that Turkish culture is "stolen", that Turkish identity is "fake", your weird Hitlerite obsession with DNA
BRM_the_monkey_man@reddit
who is bro fighting rn
Substantial-One1934@reddit
Take it easy man, aswe all see most of the dishes have Turkish names and
with some varieties are in the Balkans.Not a big deal, food is food and it must be tasty and that's all that matters.
PerspectiveFull9879@reddit
While it is true that Turkic people of Anatolia diverged more than those that stayed in Central Asia, had more outside influence etc. I don't see how anyone could claim that Turks themselves have "no history" due to this.
Each culture is a composite of many influences and that's not "stealing". What Turkic tribes found in Anatolia and the Balkans is a part of Turkish culture just as much as anything they kept from Central Asia.
pronefroz@reddit
Proof of the supposed enslavement?
dwartbg9@reddit
How do you call:
Forcing people to change their faith and become muslim or get beheaded?
Kidnap children out of their homes and make them janissaries
Do you need more examples?
pronefroz@reddit
There is no forced conversion.
dwartbg9@reddit
Yes, second class citizens sounds so nice... And the only way to become considered as something better than just "cattle" was to convert to islam. This really sounds very peaceful, you're right the Ottoman empire treated the Balkans with respect and love.
Yarrrak31@reddit
A lot of Greeks and Armenians were able to become wealthy merchants without converting to Islam or losing their identity. It doesn't sound like slavery to me
Returntomonke21@reddit
Yes thats because the average Turk couldnt even write his name until 1925 and the entire Empire relied on Christian minorities for pretty much the entire economy and industry and commercial sector
Yarrrak31@reddit
So you were the elite? But Bulgarian guy here says you were slaves? You people need to choose a side and stick to it
Returntomonke21@reddit
Christian minorities, despite being second class citizens, dominated commercial and merchant marine sectors and later industry. The Ottoman Empire economy was build around taxation of these Christian minorities so they allowed and encouraged their financial growth. Our ancestors were second class citizens under the Sublime Porte and Ottoman state, same as your Turkish peasant ancestors, despite your ultranationalism blinding you
rogomatic@reddit
As opposed to the dude who forced people to change their faith and become Christian or get beheaded? Or did you think Boris just asked folks nicely to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior?
Medieval history is full of practices, violent and otherwise, that are indefensible by modern standards. You're just hooked on the Ottoman Empire because you've been told for years that you need to be righteously outraged about that (and nothing else).
dwartbg9@reddit
Except the Ottomans behaviour and "principles" lasted way longer than the brutish Medieval times, and well into the late 19th century when other countries were already in the Industrial age.
Also in a way, it's one thing to unite and convert people that were living in tribes, without any system, totally different to destroy an already established country and culture. And as you said it yourself - one thing for that to have happened in the backward and fked up times in the 7th and 8th century, totally different to have happened in the 18th and 19th century... Look how London or the US looked back then, and compare to how people on the Balkans and the Ottoman empire were living.
rogomatic@reddit
Dervisme in the empire was abolished by the end of the 16th century. For comparison, slavery in the US lasted until the 1860s, and segregation ended in the 1950s.
smoke_rn@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Yavannia@reddit
It's also funny because the Ottoman empire was multicultural. How do they know a food they claim was invented by a Turk and not a Serbian, a Bulgarian or a Greek?
annuminasguard@reddit
It didn't say turk but ottoman. Most of the dishes on the picture already have turkish names such as kavurma, sarma etc. and some of them middle eastern cusine. So yeah technically those dishes are ottoman and they spread those dishes to balkan region.
puzzledpanther@reddit
And the television has a GrecoRoman name.. does that mean we part-invented it?
annuminasguard@reddit
Bro those words had been already used in the country of inventor but i don't think they have such words in bulgarian language.
P.s : I don't believe that cuisins are country or nation origin but geography.
Zekieb@reddit
Besides it's stupid to argue who made it first, it's much better to argue who makes it best.
lemongrade5@reddit
Best take. I think it becomes a heated topic when one sides claims it as their own. It's just shared, same as our history.
gibigibi34@reddit
Almost anything that is created in the Ottoman times were under government control and supervision. So its not far fetched to say that some dishes wouldnt exist without the Ottomans.
alfredfellig@reddit
well, og image says "ottoman dishes", not turkish. if it was a multicultural empire, you can easily call it ottoman food and it would cover everyone lol
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
Where is the emphasis of ethnicity?
morqot@reddit
Agree.
Zabeworldss@reddit
It would explain why Turkish cusine is so alike to balkams but doesnt explain why balkan cusine is so alike to eachother
name---@reddit
Many were in the same damn empire for more than a thousand years between the Byzantines, Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians
Zabeworldss@reddit
then can we talk about anything local?
name---@reddit
Unless it’s a village or city specialty, no.
Zabeworldss@reddit
So these are actually cusine of whoever
No-Presence-5930@reddit
Joke on you it's actually all Arab, but we generously allow you Roman's to larp
ChocolateAddictions@reddit
It just proves that the ottomans stole and enslaved…
Curl4Girls@reddit
Some turkish nationalists are some of the most delusional people you will ever see.
Scientific_Racer57@reddit
At least they haven't claimed feta as Turkish cheese yet I guess
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
We literally have “Beyaz Peynir.” You stand corrected. :3
Scientific_Racer57@reddit
which is not feta though.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
Yeah, it is about as different to feta as gyros is to döner. :)
_Winter-Wolf_@reddit
Usually nationalists are like that
bigelcid@reddit
Wrong. The Turks are an absolutely special case, through their very genesis.
The original Turkic peoples were nomads with not a lot of physical culture. They made for good conquerers, so they picked up stuff from every place they conquered, and created an imperial, Ottoman culture. The modern Turks see themselves as the inheritors of those nomadic conquerors, yet try to argue everything within the former Ottoman empire is Turkish/Turkic.
Plastic-Yesterday719@reddit
Be honest. All of Eastern Europe have shitty food culture
Hebijil@reddit
Do Turks just ragebait the balkans 24/7? they might be the first 100% masterbaiter country
ThingCandid9553@reddit
Ottomans basically stole most of their cuisine from the byzantines and the neighboring countries. Central Asia, the place Turks came from isn’t known for its gastronomy. Most of the stuff they ate before they invaded the region was 💩.
This_Lion5856@reddit
Ottoman food is just a mix between Balkan and Levantine/Arabic cuisine
puzzledpanther@reddit
Maybe if we change all the names to Turkish, people won't understand!
herhangibirperson@reddit
This garbage take isn't any different from the one above. But atleast thanks for showing how deluded you are "Turks had nothing they ate nothing everything they have they stole from us"
Iron_Axios@reddit
Truth! Best and most based post on Reddit!
Silgad_@reddit
Yes, yes, we know, Turks think all other countries had no idea how to put ingredients together before they came around. We get it, lol.
herhangibirperson@reddit
You are the ones claiming on daily basis how Turkish culture is "stolen from everyone else", how the Turkish identity is "fake", how Turkish foods are "infact stolen from others" and such crap
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Ayran, yoghurt and baked goods like Pesmet are present even today's Mongolian Cuisine. It is very probable that Turks used to consume ayran, yoghurt and fried dough before arriving in Anatolia.
puzzledpanther@reddit
Yoghurt is present back to the bronze age ffs
PainOk1877@reddit
one of the reasons why balkans will forever be "balkans" are things like these.i saw belgians and the french bantering and joking about french fries along with other western europeans.nobody got butthurt over it.but the balkans,heated arguments can start over food and food origin.idiotic.
CrazyBosanchero@reddit
Says someone who calls Pita with cheese "Burek"
e5x4du@reddit
turks call it that too...
CrazyBosanchero@reddit
That doesnt make it any better
antisa1003@reddit
Do you know how Turks call "burek" with cheese and cabbage? Bosnian burek.
CrazyBosanchero@reddit
Blasphemy!😉
rogomatic@reddit
Belgians have a actual region named Luxembourg, and no-one in Luxembourg is losing their shit over it, so yeah...
koshka91@reddit
I love the fact that by Ottoman people think it was some Seljuk invaders and not the locals. None of these foods are originally Central Asian, which proves that they existed locally before
ayayayamaria@reddit
I don't see the issue? Balkan cuisine is identical to Ottoman Balkan cuisine. Why do Anatolians think Ottoman Balkan culture belongs to them?
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
Spot on! Ottoman is not a Turkic or Turkish empire. It is the Ottoman empire. Ottoman is equally Turkish, Greek, Arab and so on.
thro14away@reddit
Equally? Brother …
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
Yes, equally. In fact, the Turkish influence was far less than the Armenian one if you are going to go into the primordialistic details. The Ottoman elites, however, are a different thing and believing an elite to be from a certain ethnicity is just nationalistic circlejerking. I like Timur for putting the Bayezid in his place, I see neither of the figures as Turks. Timur was Timur and Bayezdi was Bayezid
thro14away@reddit
Yes it was so equal that every time one these other ‘equal’ parts of the Ottoman Empire sought independence, mutual massacres ensued.
You are conflating many different things. If you want to, you can pay me an hourly rate and I can help educate you. Not doing it for free.
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
What part of unitary state, let alone empire anatomy don't you understand?
Talk to me when you have an internationally published dissertation and couple of articles on PHd level in the domains of history, political stufies or intl. rel.
thro14away@reddit
Not gonna dox myself but since we’re measuring dicks, I have a masters in early modern history from a top-100 university, 3/4 into a fully funded PhD in early modern history, and multiple publications. Judging by your level of English, whatever shithole institution gave you your accreditation needs to be audited.
‘I like Timur for putting the Bayezid in his place’ brother take an English class before you veer into things that are too hard to comprehend. You just spew terms you don’t understand, to defend an asinine take. The mere fact that the language of the central state and administration was Ottoman Turkish is enough to invalidate your statements.
I don’t know what purpose your deranged comments might serve, though they are par for the course when dealing with people of your ilk and origin.
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
So you're a MSc tryna cosplay PHd compensating with language assets. Cool, cool. I mean if that fancies your Napoleon complex, my "Ottoman palace Turkish=Commoner Turkish hurr durr" friend.
thro14away@reddit
Even a teenager knows that history master’s degrees are MAs. This is who I’ve been arguing with…
I never said Ottoman palace Turkish = commoner Turkish, which is a laughable non sequitur. You’re grasping at (imaginary) straws. It’s common knowledge that the Ottoman state incorporated a variety of influences but to assert that they each had equal footing with Turkish influences is astonishing. There were clear subordination and hierarchy systems in place throughout, in place to maintain the Turkish character of the central state. If anyone has paid you to argue otherwise, you are one hell of a con artist, you’d make a great street vendor in Istanbul.
FWIW ‘fancy ones complex’ is not an expression that means anything in English. Whether you live in Turkey or in Germany, I’m sure there are plenty of free resources to tap into in order to work on your English. Don’t hesitate. DM me if you want some help.
Oh and you’re the one who brought up qualifications, so might want to look in the mirror for any complexes.
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
Eh well, disregarding all domains I emphasized as well as your bs argument, you, my friend, need to work on finalizing your PHd before arguing your non equals on the internet. Chop, chop. That dissertation ain't gonna write itself, if there actually is one on the way.
thro14away@reddit
Interesting that you have no semblance of an actual argument to offer at any point.
Oh and of course, matching your imaginary PhD and publications (done with elementary school level English). With your MSc in history as well!
https://www.languagecourse.net/schools--turkey/courses-english this can be useful. my DMs are open too if you need private tutoring, but you’d have to pay a lot.
Put the fries in the bag and smile, friend.
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
I ain't dumb enough to pour years of advanced studies on a disciple. Let alone don't have time to argue a blabbermouth who is yet to defend his imaginary dissertation on that discipline. Finish your shit and earn your word
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Absolute nonsense.
Nomadic turkic tribes of central Asia didn't do any agriculture and most of them never used pork.
nicname357@reddit
wrong take they did have acces to agriculture also it says ottomon not pre ottomon area
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Nomads moved with their cattle, horses, tents, tribes, hundreds of Km every year. If a nomad plants seeds for cabbage in spring he wouldn't be there in the autumn to harvest that cabbage...
nicname357@reddit
they ddint move that much randomly evrey year they went plains in winter and mountains in summer also they do trade with their neighbor kingdoms
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Post examples of turkish permanent settlements from the time period on the south of Ural river. You cannot. And it was generational thing. The people that remained, didn't come to Anatolia obviously.
nicname357@reddit
... just ask google ai about turk settlements and they dont have to raise their own corps they can trade it too
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Why would I ask some slop llm anything.
When you trade for grain or cabbage, the peoples that already cultivate grain and cabbage for centiroes before you first arrived, have been eating food made out of those for centuries before.
nicname357@reddit
... you are so dumb that ı dont wanna argue anymore you know you can see thr source ai give you and check it?
so why romans didnt ever made thise dishes lmoa ? why thise dishes(most off them) made during ottomon area?
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Your anger is misplaced. Instead of hating the truth, you should accept it and stop living a lie.
nicname357@reddit
? what thruth and you msitaken ı am not angry you are hating on a culture you dont rvrn know a f*ck
merhabayigit@reddit
Turks were mostly nomad in the sense that they lived in different places during winter and summer. Not like wandering all the time. Highlands for grass for the animals in summer, towns to stay warm in winter. Following the same route every year.
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
You can bullshit dumb americans with that.
Running in front if Mongolian hordes and arriving in the millions into Anatolia for centuries, refutes that bullshit to its core.
merhabayigit@reddit
What happened on the way doesn't refute how they lived before and after that.
Sometimes they even had to spend years in the same places during the "escape" from the Mongolians. It's impossible to find a new place every year.
It is also impossible for a people who did not heard of agriculture to rule Iran for ~200 years.
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
You are conflating stuff from 17th century with things hapoening in the 13th, 14th, 15th... Anachronistically projecting backwards things to suite your fantasies.
Anyways this "discussion" is pointless. Try that bullshit on some western liberal clown or on semi illiterate anericans.
merhabayigit@reddit
Haha dude you really don't know a fuck. Did osman ghazi lived in 17th century as well?
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
His beylik was the size of half a province. He never seen Iran in his life, not even in his dreams. And many of his successors fought losing wars in the mountains and never expanded there.
Its irrelevant. 13th century of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ is the time period from 1201. until 1300. 17th is from 1601. til 1700..
Whatever pastry you imagine filled with minced pork, or dock leaves stuffed with minced entrals and chopped liver, that some clown invented, it was already there fir more than a millenia before.
Same with baths and waterworks, that turks didn't know how to use in Tsarigrad before bringing in engineers and waterworks operators from Belgrade...
You can lie to yourself abd to dumb anericans, abd western dekusional liberals. Not to me.
Do not reply. Or reply if you want a curse.
merhabayigit@reddit
Do you have panick attacks and start beating your head against a wall when you see somwthing about Turks? A common problem nowadays...
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
May God make you have and then not have.
Much-Savings-2803@reddit
Your retard ass thinks being nomadic means moving countries every season, they did agriculture and it was big part of their cousine ur talking up your arse
bumbumbum12345678@reddit
ur argument is totaly wrong it doesnt have to be nomadic turkic to be a ottoman dish also bulgarians use pork bc they are christian for exp turks also eat kavurma but they dont make with pork
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
There was this empire that owned Balkans and Anatolia for centuries before first turk rode into Anatolia from centeal Asia. That empire was also known for agriculture, breads, baths, masonry ovens, and many other things settled people do while nomads don't.
Chance-Caterpillar38@reddit
I can't know who invented which food but half of the dishes on the list have literally Turkish names. Like words that we still use daily and also as names for the same dishes. Eg sarmi, we call it sarma and it means "rollings".
astroNOT1337@reddit
So most of them contain pork, that says a lot about op’s ball knowledge
astroNOT1337@reddit
So invaders are considered something good nowadays ?
Fuck ecery single invader that crossed onto Balkan land and stole everything including cuisine
Fuck the ottomans and whatever is left of their supporters barbaric horrific nation, similar to the Russian orcs, subjugated small nations
Sulo1719@reddit
This is a fact.
Keno112@reddit
Thoughts on this take: Turkey is not real balkan
MyPlantsDieSometimes@reddit
Well, ottoman included all a lot of people and cultures over time, not just modern Turks. The issue perhaps is that Turks think ottoman culture == Turkish origins and nothing else. Fact is slightly different imo. If turkik people influenced the Balkans in the ottoman empire, then the Balkans also I fluenced the Turks.
Turbulent-Lime-2466@reddit
No all those dishes are actually albanian but we gave them away.
sickdanman@reddit
You can have a dish/recipe from a ottoman province that spreads through the empire but that wouldnt make them turkish. They would still be dishes from that region
Kanmogtun@reddit
No, it is not correct.
Ottoman cuisine you call is a palace cuisine, and just like any other palace cuisines, it is defined by the complexity of dishes, due to money, time, talent, and ingredients go through capitals. Hence, palace cuisines are defined by extra processes and stages of cooking.
Most importantly, palace cuisines are notable at bringing chefs from different parts of their respective countries to enrich the taste levels.
Dentheloprova@reddit
So we forget the huge empire BEFORE the ottomans right? You know the one that involved all these countries.
vus7_@reddit
Which Bulgarian dish do you claim from this picture as Roman?
Dentheloprova@reddit
Byzantine not roman
xclrz@reddit
All those dishes are FFA and everyone has their own version of them (rightfully so).
I'm happy that I can eat a greasy pie/burek anywhere I go, be it serbia greece turkey etc
my-opinion-about@reddit
Why do we have again this stupid conversation? The region has a shared history, so it's normal to have overlap on many dishes due to the cultural exchanges and availability of resources, so tracing the source it's almost straight impossible and irrelevant.
Another thing you didn't pay attention is about the recipes, almost all these recipes now are modern adaptation in many cases due to the availability of new spices and ingredients anytime over the year, and I find this very awesome.
rogomatic@reddit
Everyone knows the region has shared history, they just can't agree on which great country shared their sublime achievements with everyone else :)
my-opinion-about@reddit
You need to read my comment as whole. I said that due to shared history is almost impossible to trace the original inventor location, so the discussion is stupid. Also, it doesn’t matter anyway, the current recipes are modern reinterpretations.
rogomatic@reddit
And you need to lighten up a bit. Way too serious for a Sunday morning.
One_more_drink_@reddit
100% agree.
ieradp@reddit
You do realise nationalism around these lands is fabricated, right?
CommieAlert@reddit
I mean yeah but people fail to realize ottoman empire wasn't a turkish, or any other ethnic, state. That's a nationalistic perspecfive therefore it's anachronistic and historically erroneous. Ottomans was a mix of many cultures but if you wanna pinpoint these foods' source most of them are levantine/mesopotamian
alexsmajor@reddit
idgaf who made it, could have been ottoman, tracks or vikings. If it’s good, it’s good
Separate_Business880@reddit
Half of those dishes are Greek/Byzantine, tho.
Celdorfpwn@reddit
you misspelled byzantine
vus7_@reddit
Which ones do you claim is Byzantine?
Jediuzzaman@reddit
There is no such thing in history as "byzantine". It is "Rome" and calling Rome as such is political.
fulknerraIII@reddit
Yes, we all know that. Using the word Byzantine is just a an easy way to distinguish the Eastern Empire. It's not that big of a deal, everyone knows what someone means when they say Byzantine. Words are all made up by humans, making new ones so its easier to communicate a specific concept is fine.
Jediuzzaman@reddit
It is a big deal since such branding helps to alienate a big part of history of Rome and disables us to understand legal reasons of centuries old wars among Europeans. Without naming it correctly we can not explain European history. Those are hanging in the air with that made up word.
Yeah, that you mentioned is the excuse, but "East-Rome" or "Nea Roma" is just serves the exact same purpose and sounds correct since those people also called it like those for centuries.
Legitimisation and bastardisation is problem. It's not as innocent as you said, sorry.
rogomatic@reddit
You know what's a problem? Pseudo-intellectual word salads on the Internet. Sorry.
Jediuzzaman@reddit
Would you prefer old salads? Like "Salad byzantinum" from middleages Germany? 🤣
rogomatic@reddit
I'd love that, but all I'm getting is some sort of türlü güveç.
Jediuzzaman@reddit
Balkan cusine is far superior than Baltic cusine. You better be thankful tho.
rogomatic@reddit
Baltic cuisine is great, you just need to know what to get. I'd recommend the smoked pig ears, but that's probably not down your alley (honest take, they're a fabulous beer snack).
Jediuzzaman@reddit
We have many more options as mezes for the nights that stolen away from the skies*, mate.
Smoked pig ears sounds good, since smoking makes everything tasty, but i suggest you to ask for "meze" tray if you hit the local tavern. And i highly suggest you to end up that night at a Kokoreç stand, if you manage to make it to "our alley".
You'd be surprised with the complexity of the cusine. Its usually overwhelming for the salad guys.
Hyllius1@reddit
It's spelled Banzaitine
baxulax@reddit
Half of the dishes are haram, wtf are talking about
LudiCucek@reddit
It proves that dishes are regional and not national based.
Elyay@reddit
Well as a Serb I must say our cuisine is similar to Bulgars. Croatians have some nice seafood recipes tho.
Tentelina@reddit
Bulgarians eat pork like it's going out of style, but sure, we took aaaaaall of our cuisine from the Turks.
No-Championship-4632@reddit
No, this is a proof Ottomans knew nothing about cooking so they took the local cuisine.
altahor42@reddit
Most have reached their modern forms in the last 300 years, with only plants from the New World (tomatoes, potatoes, etc.) shaping modern cuisine.
Furthermore, Istanbul, being the center of the empire, was the center of its culinary culture.
So yes, a large part of the food culture is an Ottoman legacy. But that doesn't mean other countries don't have a food culture. For example, yes, baklava has reached its final form in Istanbul, but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as Greek baklava. Greek baklava is a different dessert from the Turkish style, made with cinnamon and honey.
rogomatic@reddit
Well I'm still just offended we didn't have falafel, and the only nohut you could get was... roasted and salted,.for some reason.
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit
You are all Greek to me
rogomatic@reddit
Spray some Windex on that :)
wiglafofpinwick@reddit
Is he wrong tho? If he were to claim that these are "Turkic", he would be completely wrong. But Ottoman, yeah, of course. It spanned across very different geographies, cultures and naturally gastronomical elements. So the people of Ottoman Empire, whether they'd be Turkish, Greek, Armenian, Slavic or Arabic, learned from each other, experimented with stuff they've learned and came up with new dishes. Just examine the journey of Köfte. Turks learned it from the Persians, then they created our own version, which they brought to Balkans, there it transformed again and became Ćevapi, became even better, and then via Balkan Turks, it came back to Turkey and transformed again. So it belongs to the people. And that's why I'd confidently put this "Ottoman region" cuisine in top spot in the whole world. Turkish + Greek + Lebanese + Bosnia + Syria, damn it's just built different.
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
I think the objection here is the term “ottoman”, which is not a friendly, unifying term but rather a harkening back to a period of Turkish domination. Not to mention that it claims credit for cuisines that predated the Ottoman Empire.
The unifying term would be “Balkan cuisine” which also perfectly well captures all the nuances of the region.
Burrito357@reddit
Whoever made that take can go kys
powerexcess@reddit
Oh, he means Byzantine dishes? Poor guy got confused.
Dix_PourCent@reddit
How are called the BeefLivers with onions in turkish? Arnaut Cigerli… meaning the ottomans might have spread it, but the dish is originally from Albania… like the Ebasan Tavasi…
spawn139@reddit
Your liver is surely delicious then
Dix_PourCent@reddit
spawn139@reddit
Ciğer and clams side by side? Ewww...
Dix_PourCent@reddit
They are sold together… read the caption… not served together
Dix_PourCent@reddit
casual_philosopher02@reddit
OkMonitor6123@reddit
This are all Turkish dishes, the Ottoman Empire feeds the world for centuries.
Majestic_Potato_5408@reddit
This proves that all the dishes are from Bulgaria which was in the middle of Balkan/Greece/Turkey, and spread its dishes out in every direction.
0BS3RVR@reddit
Yes, but only because I'd classify any cuisine regularly eaten by the people living inside a nation as that nation's cuisine. And the main reason why the balkan natioms have similar food is because they lived under the same empire for so long and interacted with each other so much.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
They are all Ottoman and Byzantine dishes. Ottoman does not mean Turkish in this context.
spawn139@reddit
Its not called Ottoman country. Its an empire. Are you realy shocked that big of an empire shared cultures inside it?
Designer-Touch9263@reddit
If turks who are most muslim can drink alcohol like we can, then ok
Michitake@reddit
The Balkan region has been heavily influenced by Turkish cuisine. However, Turkish cuisine has also been influenced by the Balkans. We are not unaware of the origins of any of the dishes mentioned above that have Turkish names. For example, Sarmi-Sarma actually comes from the act of wrapping (sarma). It is still made in Central Asia. The kavurma dish also comes from the act of roasting (kavurma). This dish is also still made in Central Asia. Some desserts and dishes have palace origins, and we can find their origins. Nomads are skilled at fermenting milk, therefore many dairy products and dishes made with yogurt show Turkish influence (not all, though). The rest are nationalistic bullies. Nobody is saying that the Balkans have no food culture. There are many dishes in the Balkans that are not found in Turkish cuisine. These have nothing to do with the Turks.
Sea-Temporary-6995@reddit
I don’t know anyone that considers baklava a Bulgarian dish. We all consider it either Turkish or Greek.
Circles-of-the-World@reddit
Good... Gooooood! The Greek propaganda is spreading.
CountPleasant617@reddit
It is actually Greek but some of it turkey might brought to some parts of balkan
Yarrrak31@reddit
I'm sure Bulgarians invented them but decided to call them Turkish names instead of Bulgarian because... I don't know maybe they like the sound of the language or some shit. Whatever makes you sleep at night
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Bro we were an established country already when your ancestors lived in the Kazakh deserts surviving on river water and fermented goat cheese.
Yarrrak31@reddit
All of these were invented in the last 500 years or so. Some of them have ingredients that couldn't even be found in the old world. You seriously think they are ancient?
By the way you can take out all the foods that also exist in the balkan cuisine from Turkish cuisine and it still would be one of the best in the world. I would say just the food we came up with in the last 100 years is enough to destroy you. Don't get cocky
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
Shopska salata at least was invented during the communist period. Tarator / Snezhanka are ancient universal dishes with variations served everywhere from the Baltics to India. So are meatballs - the word "kyufte" is in fact Persian, "kebab" is arabic believe.
We certainly have dishes in our cuisine that we consider Ottoman origin e.g. Baklava, doner. Others, such as lyutenitsa, would have originated during the Ottoman empire but we don't think of them as Ottoman simply because we don't like the Turkish variations.
Either way, we regard our cuisine as being sister to Turkish and other Balkan cuisines - I'm not even sure what the argument is here.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Take away all the Levantine, Iranian, Arab, and Caucasian food too while you are at it
Yarrrak31@reddit
Good idea
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
As I said, I dont think you came up with most of the dishes you claim.
Yarrrak31@reddit
You can think whatever you want as long as it helps you sleep at night
casastorta@reddit
What a lukewarm take.
Are you really going to claim that 600 years of forceful occupation and genocide left some trace on local cultures and communities one way or another? This is so hard to believe.
I am starting to think that Indians speaking English proves that Britain influenced it. /s
Tinenan@reddit
What ethnic groups that have lived on the same place right besides eachother for the past 1000 years have similar cuisine. Colour me shocked
ThickArt6492@reddit
Technically correct. But when you try food made by ex-Yugo, and food made by Turks, it's clear who does it better.
Polka_Tiger@reddit
Doesn't matter. This is AI slop either way.
r3giment75@reddit
What’s AI slop? Those are real dishes
Polka_Tiger@reddit
The pictures.
r3giment75@reddit
Who cares
Privateer_Lev_Arris@reddit
It's the only good thing to come from the Ottomans. Imagine eating Slavic or Germanic foods 😱
Sea_Gap_6569@reddit
In turkey “ottoman cuisine” means cuisine of emperor and people close to him, not the food of the commoners
Taki32@reddit
Given how little we know about what the Byzantine Romans were eating, they could all easily be Roman dishes.
Also, the stupid notion that yogurt is turkish or Greek is ridiculous given that the Mesopotamians invented it
Usernamenotta@reddit
Lol. People seem to forget that both, Serbia and Bulgaria, had empires stretching over most of the Balkan Peninsula. And, before them, there was the Byzantine Empire
dwartbg9@reddit
Turks especially, they really seem to forget this - 10000%. And we were already shaping the culture on the peninsula looong before the Ottomans even existed.
But no, apparently we lived in caves and huts before the Ottomans came. They act like they discovered America, or something...
dpenchev@reddit
Isn't it funny how turk nationalist are ready to claim all the things they like as an ottoman heritage, but wouldn't say a word why the balkans are one of the poorest regions of Europe. That definitely can't be a direct result of their backwards empire failing at government. If you ask who came with the idea to cut cucumbers and tomatoes and put them in a bowl - that can be noone else but the ottomans.
chrstianelson@reddit
Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural empire. Every corner of it shared some aspects of its culture with other parts. Modern Turkish cuisine is a fusion of Persian, Levantine, North African, Caucasian, Mediterranean (Cretan, Cypriot etc.), Turkic, Greek and Balkan cuisines.
Yes, they were "Ottoman dishes" in so far as Ottoman dishes were an amalgam of its constituent cultures. It is really hard to pinpoint an exact origin for most if not all the dishes in these regions because they were all so homogenized throughout the realm.
User20242024@reddit
Not true. We have German and Hungarian dishes in Vojvodina.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Ethnic pride is so 19th century. Being proud of a medieval empire owned by a family (Ottomans) is equally stupid today.
Collective creation produced these culinary traditions. Using a unifying term like "Balkan cuisine" accurately reflects this shared heritage. Food must serve as a bridge for regional unity rather than a tool for division.
Cross-cultural integration defined the urban centers of our region for centuries. For example, Ottoman Turks regularly interacted with Greek and Armenian tavern proprietors, adopting diverse meze preparations from them. The Turks subsequently integrated these dishes into their own routines, contributing unique gastronomic modifications and embedding them within broader cultural practices.
The evolution of midye dolma illustrates this synthesis. Turkish populations probably learned the preparation of stuffed mussels from Greeks, an exchange that likely began before the Ottoman era. Over subsequent centuries, Turkish cooks adapted the recipe, transforming it into the variation prevalent today.
Gastronomy also functioned as an active mechanism for social cohesion across religious boundaries. During the fasting month of Ramadan, Ottoman Greek tavern owners in worked to maintain commercial and social ties with their Muslim patrons. They sent elaborate dishes, historically referred to as "unutma beni dolması" (forget-me-not dolma), directly to their customers' homes. Cooks often prepared complex, labor-intensive recipes for this purpose, specifically mackarel dolma, which you need to stuff the fish meticolously with rice from its mouth with tweezers, so that its body will remain intact.
So, let's celebrate ourselves instead of bickering like children because Balkan gastronomy stands as a historical record of cohabitation. Attempting to compartmentalize our shared history into modern national borders misrepresents the past. Acknowledging our joint authorship of the Balkan cuisine can provide a framework for mutual respect and cultural solidarity.
PlayfulMountain6@reddit
But ottoman doesnt mean turkish
Early-Show2886@reddit
All these comparisons. In other subs, Eastern Thrace in Turkey gets compared to Bulgaria, and so on. Just stop it. Similar things exist, but that doesn't mean any single country gets to claim them exclusively for itself. Anyway, who is posting all this stuff? In real life, I don't know a single Turk who comes up with comparisons like these.
I very strongly doubt that these posts come from Turks.
r3giment75@reddit
Most of our foods are Turkish. Get over it
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Turks were nomadic people stemming from a resource scarce diet, desert style tundra environment. In my opinion, they didnt invent close to nothing but copied all the dishes from the relevant regions they occupied. Slapping Turkish names on it doesnt make it Turkish you know.
Yavannia@reddit
Noooo the telephone has a Greek name so it was 100% invented by Greeks, name means everything! /s
InfuriatingLeisur081@reddit
Much like Greek Yoghurt
Circles-of-the-World@reddit
He's half correct. The cuisine isn't national, it's regional. A lot of the dishes evolved during Ottoman times, but even more than you would expect predate the Ottomans and go back to Byzantine, Roman, Greek, Persian or even the Bronze Age.
euxenios-svartahaf@reddit
as a Turk, this is bullshit. Saying that it's only Ottoman is literally a rejecting hundred years of pre-Ottoman imperial rule in the Balkans.
rini_nini@reddit
Foods belong to the people not states and nationalities
Substratas@reddit
If that makes them sleep at night
https://i.redd.it/jd8z8crq233h1.gif
chato35@reddit
Will ppl will ever realize all of that large area of your choosing, comingled for centuries.
Gyro, doner, shwarma. All different ( dietary and/ or regional)but the same thing.
Mititei, kebap, souvlaki.
List goes on.
Atsir@reddit
“Beef liver”
Ok-Artichoke-4085@reddit
If you don't say you are an Ottoman successor don't tell that Ottoman cuisine is your's. That's why we always fight about food
bulgar2000@reddit
Whatever, like i care if it’s ottoman or not. Turkish food is great for the record
x-rascal-x@reddit
Preach!