Where does the idea that modern Greeks are not descendants from ancient Greeks come from?
Posted by zard428@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 43 comments
So because of Christopher Nolan's Odyssey, there has been a lot of talk about Greek Politics, one of them is that many people on Twitter constantly say that modern Greeks are not descendants of ancient Greeks and that it was fabricated by the British to fight the Ottomans.
Why is this such a huge debate, modern Greeks live in the same area that Ancient Greeks did and have the most DNA in them, nobody is saying that Modern Romans are not descendants of ancient Rome.
Cookiesend@reddit
I wonder why they are not the descendants as well of the medieval greek speaking population. A vast one.
PckMan@reddit
Eh it's a moot point either way. Culturally modern day greeks do represent the continuation of the ancient greeks, which obviously doesn't mean we'd be carbon copies of them, culture and language change over time, that's how it works.
Some modern day greeks are genetic descendants of ancient greeks sure. Some aren't as the land that comprises of modern day Greece has been subject to numerous demographic shifts from immigration, emmigration and population exchanges over the centuries, this is indisputable fact.
But as I said, it's a moot point. It doesn't matter if the current greeks are genetic descendants or not.
Roufianos255@reddit
How can some Greeks be descended from the ancients but not others? What am I reading 😂😂. Anyone from the borders of Ancient Greece has thousands of relatives who were alive at the time of Ancient Greece, how is it going to shift person to person.
dcdemirarslan@reddit
Migration
Roufianos255@reddit
https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals Migrations after antiquitt only left a small impact
dcdemirarslan@reddit
raoulbrancaccio@reddit
This kind of thought pattern comes from the fact that people don't understand the demography of conquest in highly densely populated regions. In these regions, it is exceedingly rare for the ethnic group of conquerors to displace the native population in any meaningful way.
Continental Southern Italy passed hands more times than you could count, but the last migration that had significant genetic effects on the population is the greek one in the bronze age. The same is true for pretty much all other places that were historically densely populated such as China or Egypt.
For Greece and Turkey specifically, however, I'm sure the population swap led to significant amount of people descending from ancient anatolian Greeks in Greece and people descending from ancient balkan greeks that were islamised and/or turkified at some point in Turkey.
Roufianos255@reddit
Because people are ignorant. It's been confirmed by multiple studies, especially over the past few years, that Greeks are closely descended from the ancients.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
It's because we called ourselves Romans for millennia, and in the Ottoman empire we were were part of the "Rum" nation. The transition from Roman to Greek is interpreted by propagandists as a foreign project, whereas of course it was pretty organic
. People always had a tendency to identify based on the geography where they live. "Roman" was a political and cultural label, and "Greek" was a geographical (and also cultural) one. Because we were limited to the Greek geography, after the revolution we stuck to using the Greek identity, which of course was a great cultural descriptor as well. Even in late Byzantine times, there was a sense of having Greek ancestry, being part of the same "γένος" or nation as the ancient Greeks. So to pretend like the Roman and Greek identities were different things is ridiculous. We just stuck to using "Roman" back then.
WanderingHero8@reddit
Normalized colonial and racist rhetoric from Westerners.
Desperate-Tea-6295@reddit
I mean, think of the flip side of this - I know many people in the US who have English ancestry and who say they're "pure Anglo-Saxon stock". Like who are these Anglo-Saxons who apparently survived (the Vikings, the Danelaw, the Norman Conquest, etc etc etc) and then found their way to the US? Anglo-Saxons contributed to the mixture of what became later Britons, but asserting that as part of their identity is about feeling important because they believe they're are the heirs, the continuation of King Arthur. It also feeds into a belief system about their own superiority.
When I hear these debates about Greek identity, I honestly have the same reaction. Threads of continuity certainly, in terms of culture and genetics. Lots has happened in the intervening centuries & millenia. It seems like maybe not the wisest tack to take to insist Greeks are the same people they were in the 5th century BC. because people leave, others come; multiple plagues wiped out swaths of the population, neighboring peoples get assimilated. I don't know why anyone chases that kind of mirage, because there's no need to. You don't need to establish continuity with ancient Greece to be a Modern Greek.
CypriotGreek@reddit
A lot of those arguments mostly trace back to Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer, whose theories became the foundation of nazi racial theory. He basically argued that after the Slavic migrations and the Ottoman period, the original Greeks had been “replaced” and diluted by Slavs, Albanians, Turks, etc.
If you look at the arguments people online use today against Greeks, it’s a one-to-one repetition of Fallmerayer’s ideas. The narrative is always that the “real” ancient Greeks disappeared and modern Greeks are supposedly just random Balkan and Middle Eastern populations pretending to be Greek.
The irony is that this type of argument is almost never consistently applied to other peoples with long histories of migration, conquest, and mixing. Nobody says modern Italians aren’t connected to the Romans because Italy had Germanic invasions, admixture, and centuries of change. But for Greeks specifically, people constantly obsess over trying to disconnect us from our own historical legacy.
erythrocytes235@reddit
What is up with all the bait threads recently?
PainOk1877@reddit
i will do my own bait:modern day Gayreeks are descendants of extremely attractive gay warriors who were called historically "The Slayqueenians." joke,guys,dont take it so hard. it is not a d***.
casual_philosopher02@reddit
Ι am a proud slayqueenian
BGD_TDOT@reddit
It comes from the arrogant British who after becoming obsessed with archeology in the 1800s visited Greece were disappointed that Greek culture had somehow changed after 2000 years.
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
British, Austrian, Vatican, etc. western and turkish propaganda...
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Yeah we learn they were actually ancient Austrians that settled there for retirement.
Plato was actually Peter and enjoying schnitzel /s
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
🤣
The Vienna school of history, from the 18th and 19th abd ear 20th century...
_mayuk@reddit
I don’t think is just propaganda … at least as a Latino I didn’t spect to have such high affinity with ancient Minoans and Greeks .. same with Adriatic ( but Illyrians legionaries where used in the Iberian campaign .. also Merida was a Roman city in Spain where legionaries used to retire to marry local woman and “romanize” Iberia xd …
_mayuk@reddit
And are deepdive that matches high in the full database not just regular matches xd
Kapoutsinos@reddit
The Genetic Samples only use Minoan (Cretans) who were mostly extinct as samples and don't have Ioanin,Aeolian and Doric (The actual Greek tribes) samples. I wonder why..
_mayuk@reddit
modern greeks seems to have less EEF/Sardinan like dna that is the only reason maybe why other europeans with more EEF would match them closer ... I have heavy basque ascendency which is one of the pops closer to modern Sardinian or ancient EEF ...
so less slavic influx?
_mayuk@reddit
and when they added most recent greek I did matche them too , I would do a quick search of nowadays samples ...
_mayuk@reddit
another interesting stuff it seems that the illyrians are the result of the mix of celtic with minoans after bronce colapse ...
the palace of nestor samples as well seems more minoan thay mycenean ... the griffing warrior another of my deep dives xd was burry with minoan artifacts , which is quite interesting ....
_mayuk@reddit
and the monions have a creazy affinity with my celtic origens .. due that in qpA ... the minoan sample and the continental Celtic % variations is huge
so 41% +/- for the celtic and 31% +/- for the minoan sample indicates that they share same EEF root .... which is pretty interesting :v , I have to get a better WSH proxy with out the EEF admix to see how much root Minoan I have hehe...
_mayuk@reddit
Because they say Ancient Greek …minoan and mycenaeans are Ancient Greek … the NST samples is an abante / pelasgoi sample … Modern Arcadian could have some Ancient Greek … ( I match some Corinthians other a bit more modern samples , plus Illyrian and such )
And well here in modern samples Arcadian like I say and historically are linked with ancient Greeks …
_mayuk@reddit
The Croatian similarities also have to came from the none that Slavic pops … Venetian/alike Croatians xd
Idk what happen in Hungary but it was the epicentre blend of modern distribution…. Of this admix that is no more so present in the Balkans …
Same with the Viking samples those shared Mediterranean admix that probably end up there after the the colapse of the comercial routes between Sweden and the Byzantine empire xd ( probably part of the vargundian guard ) …
Few-Interview-1996@reddit
Do people really care?
kodial79@reddit
The western world has always hated us because they consider ancient Greece to be their foundation and they can't make peace with the fact that modern Greece is very different culturally from them. They would have loved to keep ancient Greece and get rid of modern Greece.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Idk why somebody would think that Greeks lost the history of their roots.
It’s like flat earth theory level of delusion
Early-Show2886@reddit
Muslims in turkey at black sea who speak Romeyka:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcq1qfdVsa8
Muslim greek spekaing descendant of the Vallahades in Turkey:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_dJ-spfq-8
Descendants of Cretan Muslims in Turkey, speak still their language:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEOe1CFGlKs
So what about them? they also must have Ancient Greek Dna
Jack55555@reddit
DNA is not important. People mix. Nobody is a pure race. What is more important is ethnicity/culture. Modern Greeks are 100% descendants culturally and ethnically of the Ancient Greeks.
robi228@reddit
I believe at some point Greece was overrun by slavic migrants and Byzantine Emperor had to import Anatolian greeks back to peninsula.
Lothronion@reddit
In fact it is the opposite that happened. Greece only received few Slavic people in the country, roughly 1/10th of the population, and the Roman Emperors had to import Greeks from Greece to the Cyclades Islands, Crete, Sicily and Southern Italy, in order to deal with the depopulation inflicted by the Arabs. What you say only happened in the region of Macedonia, specifically today's Northern and Western Thrace, in the Rhodope Mountains, but that is not part the Greek Peninsula.
ArtichokeFinal7562@reddit
I have a hard time believing that modern greeks/romans/israelits/egyptians/persians are direct descendants of ancient greeks/romans/israelits/egyptians/persians. Of course their will be some things like "they use the same characters", "they live in the same region" or so, but is that already enough to reason for a ancestry?
CamelAmbitious7425@reddit
Because modern Greeks have a significant share of non-ancient Greek genes. Most Greeks have next to ancient Greeks also Anatolian, Slavic, or Arvanite ancestors.
Whole_Check_3038@reddit
Mostly western propaganda back in the days…
zard428@reddit (OP)
Can you be a little more specific, as in propaganda against the Greeks?
Whole_Check_3038@reddit
The greeks were considered lost when the ottomans came in - no state no army no nothing. The Germans, the English and the french were the ones that “re-discovered” the Classical greeks in europe and used them as their own identity cores for what they believed their civilization is. The problem was that when some peasants from the mountains managed to liberate form the Ottomans and create Greece as a state, their whole identities now were shaken considering that there are actual greeks that are the “true” descendants of that civilization. And of course many scholars, especially Germans in the 19th century started exploring facts around how Greek are the Greeks and there is a specific German wave of scholars saying that they are not Greeks. This was actually for two centuries the case until actually they managed to do DNA tests of today’s Greeks and using some samples they had from bones in graveyards of the periods before even the classical era discovering it’s mostly the same. Regardless of the fact that we as Greeks are similar to the ones lived here like 3000 years ago this has nothing to do with the fact that this civilization survived and it doesn’t have to do at all with any genetic similarity. On the contrary, it actually has to do with stuff that has nothing to do with genetics, but with how the Greek civilization has managed to transform over the years without losing its essence and that is what makes the Hellenic civilization the greatest one. Also don’t forget that when the west had its medieval times the greek world was flourishing with the Eastern Roman Empire which was Roman only in its name so they of course envied that.
Turkish_Teacher@reddit
Give it time about the modern Romans.
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
Ragebaiting.
Modern Greeks had a Roman identity until the 19th century, but they were still aware of the ancient Greeks. Even the Ottomans referred to the peninsula as Rumelia (Land of the Romans). They started associating themselves more with the ancient Greeks and less with the "Byzantines" because the West romanticized ancient Greece and this helped them garner support from the West during their conflicts with the Ottomans.
wantmywings@reddit
The idea comes from the significant population exchange that occurred with Turkey.