Kia’s Cheapest Car Could Be Killed By Tougher Emissions Rules
Posted by MasterpieceStill9991@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 120 comments
Posted by MasterpieceStill9991@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 120 comments
plaugedoctrwithradar@reddit
It’s kinda fucked up how modern emissions regulations target small cars. You can have a vehicle pollute as much as you want as long as you call it a “light truck” and give it a large wheelbase. But the second you make a small car, the government won’t allow it because it doesn’t get 60+mpg, but they don’t care if a truck gets sub 20mpg.
krodders@reddit
That's USA only.
mgobla@reddit
Im am from europe, the rules in europe are even worse. Also the US rules they are talking about were old rules, they were abolished and no longer exist in US.
In EU the whole fleet weight decides how much any manufacturer has to pay. The more / the HIGHER average vehicle weight of the whole fleet, the LESS a manufacturer has to pay to EU. Offering small models reduces the average fleet weight = they have to pay many millions MORE to EU for LOWER fleet average weight. That is law in europe. No matter how many people online deny reality.
gimpwiz@reddit
I always appreciate the guy from Europe explaining US law... with absolute surety... and also being wrong.
https://environmentalhealthsafetybrief.sidley.com/2025/07/08/congress-eliminates-corporate-average-fuel-economy-cafe-penalties-for-passenger-cars-and-light-trucks/
The rules are not abolished. The penalty is zero... but the law otherwise remains in place. This means it's fairly easy to bring penalties back any time. This may be a fine point but it's not a small difference in practice.
J0kutyypp1@reddit
They can still make small cars but need to lower their average emissions for the same amount. If they get the emissions low enough you don't need to pay anything
UmaThurmish@reddit
no they were not abolished that is a lie.
the penalty on the CAFE emissions has been reduced to $0, however, CAFE is still there, and the next administration can easily and most likely WILL bring the penalty back
UmaThurmish@reddit
the funny thing is that it can carry just as many people. use less fuel, use a lot less resources to produce, take up less space on the road. but since its not light truck, nah
fucked system
kr4ckenm3fortune@reddit
Dont forget that it also killed Kei Truck too.
UmaThurmish@reddit
I remember one of the last top gear episodes (Clarkson, May and Hammond) they had a segment ranting about how SUVs are just worse than regular cars 99% of the time but people still buy them
and they also had a segment on the very first old days where Jeremy sat on a highway to see how many cars have more than 1 passenger, almost none did, most of the time cars are for commuting a single person.
and they are right. its all everyone buys, traffic jams, more carbon emissions, more parking space. can't see damn crossing sign sometimes when an SUV is sitting there. can't see traffic light over some SUVs
they are horrible in most ways and yet everyone is buying them because of terrible regulations that allow them to exist
DeviousMelons@reddit
Being pro transit is a must for car guys because if these people took the train to work there wouldn't be traffic or people buying these bland cars. Hell emissions regulations might be loosened because of the amount or cars taken off the road if mass transit happens.
Less people who need to drive is more room for people who want to drive.
StradlatersFirstName@reddit
Imagine the world if every Altima driver was a rail commuter instead
tellymundo@reddit
Most of them would be trying to ride on top of the train, thrill seekers they are
gimpwiz@reddit
Self-solving problem tbh
SenTedStevens@reddit
And subsequently after that, the train is laced with duck tape and has body panels dragging on the rails.
StradlatersFirstName@reddit
I'm just imagining the sparks
PM_ME_A_Pic_@reddit
It also means my garage is not determined by the vehicle I need during the week and the toy I want for the weekend, but instead the car I drive when I want to drive with transit handling the day-to-day transportation.
DaBanninator@reddit
Nonsense. "Transit" is just another woke handout to the moocher class
lat3ralus65@reddit
A+ satire
Prompter@reddit
The only correct answer
shreddedsharpcheddar@reddit
i wouldn't lump everyone into that category. sure, during most of the week days i will be by myself in my hybrid forester, but i am using the cargo space to go do outside activities each and every weekend
Kryptus@reddit
Some states allow them.
DJMagicHandz@reddit
The amount of people commuting in pickups is wild.
ronchee1@reddit
Small vehicles don't work for everyone.
Some people need trucks but aren't going to buy, maintain and insure 2 vehicles.
If you have a family you need a place for them and their stuff as well.
I hope to see more hybrid/ plug in hybrid trucks in the near future.
I own a truck ( I tow with it ) but bought the most fuel efficient one I could get , a f150 powerboost (hybrid)
That being said, if you don't have a family and dont do actual truck things it's unnecessary.
mgobla@reddit
Stop lying. That was CAFE in the US. It was abolished a few months ago, the old rules you wrote about do NOT exist anymore. Now trucks and cars are treated the same and size does NOT matter anymore in the US, there is NO longer a disadvantage for smaller cars in the US What you wrote is WRONG and not true.
You did not read the post or are misleading on purpose.
The post is about EUROPE / EU.
NOT about USA.
rt80186@reddit
CAFE is still present in the US. There is proposed but not enacted changes on classification of car vs light truck but their impact is unclear (I think they may bias towards even more truck like SUVs).
ChiggaOG@reddit
It's not how it targets small cars. The math equation the EPA uses for MPG requirements uses car footprint. Physics say it's easier to make smaller cars more efficient. It's why we have that graph showing MPG goals lower for vehicles with larger footprint. It's the loophole every automaker in the US has been using.
The exception is motorcycles. We can have Panigale V4 14.5K rpm 4-cylinder 1 Liter engines.
mgobla@reddit
Completely misleading comment. You did not read the post or are misleading on purpose.
The post is about EUROPE / EU.
NOT about USA.
That was CAFE in the US. It was abolished a few months ago. Now trucks and cars are treated the same and size does NOT matter anymore in the US, there is NO longer a disadvantage for smaller cars in the US What you wrote is WRONG and not true. Also trucks can NOT pollute "as much as they want" that's a ridiculous lie.
You are just making up insane, ridiculous lies.
Stop upvoting misleading, lying posts to the top....
curtisas@reddit
CAFE standards were not completely removed. What they did change was
"Big Beautiful Bill" set the penalties were set to $0, effectively ending them
Changing some of the standards to classify as a light truck vs car
Lowering the targets back to some previous levels
All this to say, technically CAFE is still around, albeit in a reduced and neutered penalty state.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Just kind shock this case happening in British because most people in there buy small cars most.
UmaThurmish@reddit
no. in europe SUVs and Cars are all passenger cars, this BS is only in america
but the american market is itself bigger than all of EU combined, so we dictate the global trends.
leedle1234@reddit
Europe has a CAFE equivalent, higher weight = low emissions target
J0kutyypp1@reddit
Yes you get higher emission limit with higher average weight but the limits aren't regardless
TunerJoe@reddit
Europe requires a lot of expensive safety equipment that also makes selling smaller/cheaper cars less profitable. The difference is that people here actually buy them.
mgobla@reddit
People in the US can buy them too. People saying otherwise are blatantly lying. Americans just do not WANT small cars, no mather how many people online deny it. Mitsubishi Mirage was sold until last year, any american could buy one, but sales numbers were very low. Small cars that could NOT be sold in the EU bc of EU regulations could actually be sold in the US. That is reality. Americans just dont buy small cars.
TunerJoe@reddit
You may want to read the last sentence of my comment again, because it seems like you're basically agreeing to what I'm saying.
UmaThurmish@reddit
the miata weights 2300 pounds and passes safety regulations everywhere, it's a bs execuse.
TunerJoe@reddit
The main issue here is not passive safety, I was talking about active safety equipment like lane departure warning, traffic sign recognition, speed warning, automatic emergency braking. These systems are very expensive to produce and need to be installed in every single new car sold in the EU. Proportionally, they will obviously cost more to install in a cheaper car than a more expensive one, thus making selling cheaper cars less profitable, it's not a bs excuse, it's a real thing. Not to mention most of the time they are more annoying than useful, and many people just turn them off.
StandupJetskier@reddit
Based on car rentals recently, first thing I do is shut them all off. I know I'm changing lanes, thanks.....don't buzz my wheel every time I do.
knowledgeable_diablo@reddit
The systems cost the same pretty much going into an SUV or a small car but it’s the margin that gets eroded away. In small cars like hatch backs the OWMs are making really tight margins and rely on just flooding the market to get to profitability. Where as SUV’s cost basically the same to make with a little extra material cost; but because they are larger, people are ok paying more for them leaving more margin on them to put in the stupid “safety” systems that generally just piss of drivers.
TunerJoe@reddit
That's exactly what I was trying to say
ExplosiveMachine@reddit
The MX-5 in Slovenia for example starts at 38k€.
The Dacia Sandero starts at 14.990.
You can see why Mazda has a bit more budget to spend on development/materials for the small car.
boboguitar@reddit
What specific safety equipment is required in the EU that isn’t in the US?
StandupJetskier@reddit
That's why we have no Station Wagons or Hatchbacks. Want a wagon ? Can we show you this nice "truck" instead ?
hutacars@reddit
Except this article is about the UK, not the US.
mgobla@reddit
Stop trolling and lying. This original post is about EUROPE, not about the US. The post has ZERO correlation to the US, does not affect the US at all.
Also in the US what you are talking about (CAFE) was ABOLISHED months ago.
UmaThurmish@reddit
it was not abolished , the penalty was reduced to 0. it can comeback any time.
Life_Yesterday_7008@reddit
The weight of the sold cars is factored in when the fleet emissions of a manufacturer are calculated.
mgobla@reddit
Thy are lying in the replies, blatant lies that are not true.
SenTedStevens@reddit
Something I've pondered with emissions standards is what point would it be better environmentally if companies didn't need to have emissions equipment installed. For instance, engineers could calculate if your car made over 100 MPG, that it would be cleaner than a lesser fuel efficient car with a catalytic converter and all these additional systems.
Instead of the government having relatively low CAFE standards that nowadays are fairly easy to exceed, they should encourage companies to make super high efficiency drivetrains. This encouragement would be that the car doesn't need to have a catalytic converter. Doing so would make cars cheaper to manufacture and consumers wouldn't have to worry about meth heads Sawzalling off their cats and incurring potentially $X,XXX repair bills.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Tankninja1@reddit
I feel like the current Corolla/Camry directly conflicts with this idea.
Camry and Corolla get basically the same MPG, Camry actually gets slightly better MPG, except the Camry is a much larger car than the Corolla. There's a whole 7mpg combined difference from the RAV4 to the Camry because go figure they share the same power train.
cat_prophecy@reddit
Emissions rules were designed when people weren't commuting in their HD trucks and trucks weren't luxury vehicles.
jameson71@reddit
We can thank good old boy redneck republican legislation for this particular WTF
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chowi_69@reddit
The united states isn't the whole world
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
yes and? did the post ever mention"the whole world"? There are no emissions limits in Ghana. What does that even matter to the conversation?🤣
hutacars@reddit
The comment cites a US-only rule
The article is about the UK
(It’s likely the top commenter, and the 260 people who upvoted it, didn’t read the article.)
chowi_69@reddit
The light truck loophole is really only a thing in the us 🤷🏻♂️
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
oh i totally agree. that light truck regulation is such BS! Our govt agencies and the massive national agencies that run everything from national parks to natural gas to alcohol and tobacco, they're all extremely bloated and corrupt and have been for DECADES!
404merrinessnotfound@reddit
The US is a great example of what happens when your laws and legislature are up for sale
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Bro got downvoted for stating the truth: the UK has a "no non-hybrids" rule but also a fleet wide emissions figure, under which a Picanto does far better than a Ranger PHEV (for example). To my knowledge there is no widespread exemption for pickup trucks.
plaugedoctrwithradar@reddit
No shit, but the vast majority of countries have very similarly structured emissions regulations. They all very consistently target smaller vehicles with much more strict regulations compared to larger vehicles. And will often be even less strict if the vehicle is defined as “truck” or “work vehicle”.
chowi_69@reddit
Just look at something like the 2010s Tiguan or Lexus RX, they had that overbite so they could be classified as "light trucks" ONLY IN THE US, they were normal elsewhere because other regulations (really the only other relevant ones are the EU ones) don't have the loophole, suvs/crossovers/cuvs play by the same rules as cars. Are EU regs also kinda stupid in their own way? Sure, just slap an electric motor on your massive V8 and that's that, but it's an entirely different thing.
hutacars@reddit
Not how any of this works in the UK, which is what the article is about.
Nerdenator@reddit
It’s not fucked up; it’s done on purpose.
Car companies lobbied to have the rules written this way to protect large SUVs and trucks. Otherwise they would have had their asses handed to them by the Japanese in the small car segments decades ago.
wildfire98@reddit
i think this is why the Maverick has become a sleeper "small car" hit
Yankee831@reddit
This vehicle was never sold in the US so your whole argument is moot.
Kryptus@reddit
They could make trucks have to be registered to a business to qualify for an exemption. Private truck owners could be made to pay an extra tax.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
It's not impossible to build a hybrid out of a car that small but it does take some extra engineering. The Aygo X has a hybrid power train and is in this same class.
agjios@reddit
The Aygo X is a larger class vehicle than the Aygo and this car are. The Aygo X is a crossover-ified shrunken Yaris. u/LasseD points out the dimensions nicely.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1tm0pxy/comment/onketrg/
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
So then what class of vehicle does the Aygo X fit in if it’s not in the same class as the Picanto?
Just because the Aygo X is slightly bigger dimensionally doesn’t mean it doesn’t still occupy the same vehicle class. If you are suggesting the Aygo X is no longer in the same A-segment then you’re somehow suggesting it’s in the B-segment which the larger Yaris occupies, no?
RealTalk1031@reddit
Government ruins everything
countryboy4x4ing@reddit
The government doesn't care about the emissions. It's the prophet they make that they care about!
WhippersnapperUT99@reddit
?The government doesn't care about the emissions. It's the prophet they make that they care about!
...and The Prophet said, "SUVs and pickup trucks shall inherit the Earth."
HalfDecentFarmer69@reddit
But don’t forget that Jesus did not speak of his own accord.
PolarWater@reddit
Lord, thy one-liners are as good as thy tricks; thou art indeed an all-round family entertainer.
mgobla@reddit
Post is about EUROPE
Comments are misleading, pretending it's about the US (this has zero correlation to the US) and are ranting about old rules that do NOT exist anymore in the US.
gdnws@reddit
Getting reddit to read the article is an impossible task. Getting reddit to miss an opportunity to bring up the US and why it is bad is also an impossible task even when it is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
mcneill09@reddit
I'd take a break from the internet if I was you.
Lyxess@reddit
I mean Toyota just fit a hybrid in the latest Aygo so surely it can be done in a revised picanto.
agjios@reddit
The Aygo is like a 20% larger vehicle.
Revising the Picanto is just forcing increased costs that aren't viable. It's the same logic that the 2,400 kg BMW M5 with 14mpg is allowed but various smaller cars like this Kia are being killed.
LasseD@reddit
Let's see how fair that comparison is. The "Aygo" is no more. The tall replacement "Aygo X", which has the 1.5 hybrid engine, is larger than the original Yaris in all dimensions, and also larger than the Picanto:
Aygo X dimensions:
3.776 mm x 1.740 mm x 1.525 mm tall
Kia Picanto:
3.605 mm x 1.595 mm x 1.485 mm tall
The Aygo X is also significantly more expensive that the Picanto, although surprisingly, cheaper than the original Yaris when factoring in inflation.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Tbf the Picanto has a 1.25L which is accounting for a good deal of that room
Scazitar@reddit
I'll die on the hill that both Europe and US emissions regulations are fucking trash only shielded by "it's saving the environment."
Doesn't change the they were designed morons and mostly punish the least harmful offenders.
Futt_Buckman@reddit
Kia Picanto
In the UK
Because they can't fit a hybrid into it
KMelkein@reddit
they WON'T fit a hybrid in it. We (euromarket-area) just got the new Toyota Aygo X Hybrid, which incidentally is almost the same size as Picanto. And only 2k€ more expensive than Picanto.
But then again Toyota sells 100k Aygo X's and Kia sells 50k Picantos (in eu+efta).
FledglingNonCon@reddit
This is a classic industry lobbying strategy. They love to blame regulations for everything, especially canceling small cars that they only make a small profit on.
KMelkein@reddit
also they killed the hyundai counterpart, (i10) last fall.
mgobla@reddit
AygoX is bigger, also it uses a platform that was designed for hybrids from the start
RandomCheeseCake@reddit
Can't? Or won't?
Oh_ffs_seriously@reddit
Won't, but they'll cry pretending they can't.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
This is the main reason why the inexpensive, cheap new car no longer exists.
Everyone loves to pretend that it's just the manufacturers targeting high margin SUVs and crossovers, but the reality is that emissions and safety regulations are making them completely unviable at their current price points.
The base model Yaris is now a $33,000 car in Australia. The Picanto is $22,000.
Bebealex@reddit
Wo wo, let not forget that the current fuel regulations have been put in place to push consumers toward cuv and suvs. To quote the makers some years ago they cost 1000$ more to make but customers are ready to pay 3-4000$ more.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Do you have a source? For the UK, not the US please.
Bebealex@reddit
https://youtu.be/JPm4de6-eTg?si=aixY8InCdDLRqGqh
hutacars@reddit
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
That looks an awful lot like a USDM car in the thumbnail...
TunakTun633@reddit
The BYD Dolphin Surf is a great example of this.
It got global headlines for being a $12-13K EV in China with (up to) 300 miles of range (if you pay more money).
But now that they’re selling it in the UK, with better crash structures and materials and VAT figured in, they want £18,500. For a 137-mile model.
UK prices are usually a fair amount higher than US prices, but that’s nearly $25K USD! Double what it started at.
FledglingNonCon@reddit
BYD and other Chinese OEMs make most of their profit outside of China. They have limited competition so they would rather sell at a higher price for more profit than sell at a lower price and push volume. Not drastically undercutting traditional OEMs prices also helps limit political blowback that could lead to them being banned like they are in the US.
jaaagman@reddit
I suspect that the domestic version of the Dolphin is cheaper because it lacks the crashworthiness that we have gotten used to.
TunakTun633@reddit
Right. BYD is pretty explicit about that.
It certainly brings context to the oft-propagandized dominance of the Chinese EV. The Dolphin has strengths in the form of tech and a strong range, but a Citroen e-C3 that costs £4K more and is considerably more comfortable isn't a bad value proposition either.
Dan6erbond2@reddit
Yeah. People forget that just having good performance and range, or tech, doesn't mean these cars are better in every other regard.
If you value non-minimalist interiors or you want to be able to service your car without driving an hour (depending on location I guess) or even just have a preference for design, materials, driving feel the European options don't look so bad for a small price increase.
It's how we ended up with our 26kCHF Junior.
Euler007@reddit
Figuring in VAT is not helpful for people in other countries.
TunakTun633@reddit
Which other countries?
From an American’s perspective, I can say my anecdotal rule-of-thumb is that a car costs about as many GBP in the UK as it does USD in the US.
So imagine the Dolphin Surf is an $18.5K USD car, in the fictional scenario in which this is a US-market car. The extended battery is £3300 in the UK, so say the 300-mile variant would cost $22K.
Is that cheap? Absolutely. Sodium-ion batteries are great, and we need some in our market. But it’s comparable to a Toyota Corolla LE. I’ve already seen leasing deals for the new Bolt that assume a $5K discount, so let’s say that compares too. I hate to tell you that these cars are both much nicer cars.
Euler007@reddit
Canada in the optics of increased numbers of cars allowed, Australia, other countries summons the world. You're using USD which everyone knows how to convert to their currency, but no one outside the UK knows or cares about your VAR rates.
RandomCheeseCake@reddit
But BYD's MSRP in the UK made up like every other Chinese company.
I can find them on sale for thousands off pre reg on autotrader. Worst offender is MG where they'll list the msrp at £28k and then sell pre-reg models for under £20k like with the MG S5
TunakTun633@reddit
Interesting. Thanks for that input. As an American, I don't have a lot of exposure to their tactics.
How's the build quality / aftermarket support on those MGs? I've heard it isn't great.
RandomCheeseCake@reddit
Haven't driven them myself but they seem to have recently massively improved especially on electric cars
MG4 got genuinely good reviews and the new MG4 urban seems he a decent hatch. Only time will tell us how well they'll hold up in 10+ years
Parts availability is the weak point on Chinese cars so if something goes wrong expect long lead times but some of the Chinese OEM's have said they're aware of this and are allegedly moving towards massively shortening it. The reliability on mg4's seems mostly ok and it's mostly electric gremlins (true to it's mg name) that cause issues.
Compared to the garbage they were dumping 5 years ago they genuinely have improved massively. Cars like the mg3, mg hs zs genuinely terrible cars with no appealing quality, just cheap crap for boomers.
General rule is avoid Chinese ICE cars and only consider their phev's and ev's
Anectodally in my city the council (local government) is using the MG5 EV (station wagon/estate rebadged rowee i5) as their taxi fleet and I can find tons of ex taxi ones for sale with higher mileage (100k+ on 2022 cars) and some long term ownership reviews on yt had them as pretty reliable
chowi_69@reddit
That's just a Chinese car thing, they take advantage of their low manufacturing costs and heavy subsidies to sell at low prices domestically and then do heavy mark-ups to chase margins overseas (and pay tariffs as well), though keeping prices still somewhat competitive with non-chinese cars.
mgobla@reddit
The post is about europe.
In EU the whole fleet weight decides how much any manufacturer has to pay. The more / the HIGHER average vehicle weight of the whole fleet, the LESS a manufacturer has to pay to EU. Offering small models reduces the average fleet weight = they have to pay many millions MORE to EU for LOWER fleet average weight. That is law in europe. No matter how many people online deny reality.
KMelkein@reddit
Sorta bullshit comparison, Yaris is one size bigger than Picanto.
The new Toyota Aygo X hybrid (which is almost the same size as Picanto) costs here (Finland = high taxes on cars) 22k€. Kia Picanto is bit under 20k€.
CO2 emissions are 87grams on Aygo, 117 on Picanto.
(btw. yaris starts at 25k€ here)
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
While you're not wrong size wise, in the context of the Australian market, we don't get that many cars in that city car segment that the Picanto occupies.
There was a time, not that long ago before the pandemic and then emissions regulations completely upended the car market, where cars like the Toyota Yaris, Mazda2, VW Polo, Hyundai i20 and the Honda Jazz retailed for between $15,000-$20,000, with the Picanto and the VW Up a couple of thousand cheaper.
The Picanto is still flying the flag for inexpensive motoring while all the others in that segment are either no longer available or now on the wrong side of $30,000.
Part of that is due to emissions regulations - as an example the base Yaris is now a hybrid.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
NVES didn't exist until 2025, the base Yaris was culled before that
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
It's not just Australia specific emissions regulations though, but worldwide ones. This is a global phenomenon.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
The global Yaris has a non-hybrid 1.5, it was Toyota Australia's choice to cut the base Yaris and had nothing to do with emissions regulation.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
The Swift is 25k and is bigger than the Picanto, this is a Kia problem and not an industry wide problem. The Hyundai Inster is an EV Picanto and if they weren't trying to take it upmarket it wouldn't cost nearly 40k, it's not regulation causing that.
Every Japanese manufacturer other than Suzuki has cut massive swathes of their budget range and all manuals, not because safety requires it but because it's bad for the brand if they have one model with low ANCAP scores.
costafilh0@reddit
It's a big world. Make them damn thing and sell elsewhere.
In the end, all the hyper regulated countries like shithole Europeans will be all fvcked with expensive shitty EVs and the rest of the world enjoying everything else.
costafilh0@reddit
Regulations saving you from the possibility of stopping being poor.
noheroesnomonsters@reddit
Thats a shame. I can't think of anything in it's size and price range that is better equipped, Kia seems to respect the people who want small cars instead of only offering austere misery boxes.