Feeling like we lost something in developed western countries
Posted by Agile-Adagio-8782@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 45 comments
I’ve been thinking about how to properly articulate my thoughts on this topic without it sounding like a political critique or taking one side or the other in these polarising times. I also realise that my post risks sounding a bit naive. I hope you will be able to get the core message that I’m trying to communicate.
I’m 37M from the UK but living in Germany the last 9 years. In recent times, I’ve spent a lot of time traveling in Georgia, Indonesia, Vietnam and a few other places. I’ve observed that there still exists a kind of strong tradition and culture that ties the society together in so many countries, and the fabric of the society is woven so much tighter in so-called “lesser developed” countries. Everyone can follow the path set by their culture and also people rely on each other more and bonds seem tighter. It has honestly felt very refreshing to be around, and also left me feeling disillusioned at the same time.
I feel like I missed out on that growing up in UK and living in Berlin in recent years, where everybody is so international and different and I feel like the culture that ties us together in these apparently “more developed” societies is basically just consumerism and individualism. Life can sometimes feel quite empty. Maybe you could argue that multiculturalism has watered down any strong cultural identity that existed in “destination countries” such as the UK and Germany where many people are coming to seek a better life (again, I want to reiterate that I’m not trying to make a political point, just describing what happens in such a situation). Or it could also be that capitalism has had too bigger influence on our culture. Or maybe it’s a side effect of replacing a lot of our natural needs with unnatural replacements, for example instead leaning on each other in society/neighbourhood we have bureaucracy and welfare, and instead of spirituality we have consumer capitalism. Maybe it’s also the weather that affects the way society works/feels. I just have this strong feeling that something or nature has been lost along the way of development in the two Western European countries I’ve lived in.
At the same time, I also realise I am very privileged to have grown up in a wealthy country and now live in another wealthy country. It’s given me a head start compared to many people from other parts of the world. These are just my personal observations after some traveling and I’m curious to hear if anyone has the same feeling, or if anyone disagrees with me.
Far_Gap8054@reddit
Coming from eastern europe and moving to the UK, i realised the Eastern Europe is today superior to Western Europe with regard to living life, feeling alive and happiness. Growing up, I always felt we were inferior to western europe, but now since living in UK and travelled the entire western europe, I can say i was wrong. The west has a bit more money, superior hospitals and better roads and infrastructure, but everything else is worse. I never feel alive in western europe, it is like we just exist, no happiness, no vibes, and this is coming from a sober and serious person who was never interested in “feeling alive and happy” (the exceptions are Spain, Switzerland and Italy)
Some-Entertainer-250@reddit
I am not sure what you are actually looking for here. It almost sounds like you are fishing for validation that something has gone “wrong” in Western countries, but you describe everything in a very soft and general way.
You also put whole regions in the same basket. Poorer or less developed countries are not automatically full of tight communities and “gentler” people (this is actually a very western way of thinking). Western countries are not automatically full of lonely individualists. It really depends on where you live, who you meet and the life you build. There are plenty of places in the UK, Germany, France or Spain etc. with a strong local culture and strong community bonds, and at the same time there are plenty of people in poorer countries who feel disconnected too.
A lot of what you describe sounds more like a personal feeling of not fitting in where you currently live than a universal truth about “the West losing its culture”. Berlin is an international bubble by definition. If you live in that kind of environment, of course you will not feel a strong traditional identity. It is the nature of the place, not the nature of Western civilisation.
If the point is that you feel disconnected and you miss a sense of community, you can just say that directly. No need to wrap it in politics, multiculturalism, capitalism or the weather. Just be clear about whether you are trying to understand your own experience or if you are trying to make a broader societal statement.
IntelligentGur9638@reddit
is it possible that poorer countries rely more on social bonds because of prgamatism and because i.e. social services are lacking?
as example, if you're sick, in certain western countries you'd have full paid support even in hospital while other countries expect that family takes care of such ppl because there are no care service at all?
Agile-Adagio-8782@reddit (OP)
Yes I'm completely aware of that. I'm also grateful for many of these public services and protections we have in western Europe but realising recently there are also side effects on society. People dying alone in their apartments and no-one checking on them for weeks or months. This happens in Berlin. Also a lot in Sweden I heard. They even made a documentary about it called The Swedish Theory of Love.
Same-Willow6997@reddit
I just don’t get what you are saying about multiculturalism being the cause (in your post) without seeming you have a political agenda when writing this part. Ethnic minority communities in the U.K, especially Asians of different religious backgrounds, do not really have the problems of like lack of cohesion, elder loneliness - it’s a white issue. So on the contrary, having more immigrants from these countries would have improved the ‘whatever something having been lost in developed western societies’, and not being blamed for it. You either have a political agenda or you seriously lack some critical thinking skills and unable to join the dots. And also, countries like Georgia and Vietnam ARE multicultural - they have many different communities with different languages and customs. Vietnam itself has more than 110 languages being spoken today. Assuming you have no political agenda and that you just lack critical thinking skills, individualism and consumerism is a Western concept - namely of capitalism - that was invented by your native country. Over the long term, as the Asian countries you mentioned in your post become more capitalistic, they also will probably see the same effects affecting western societies today. This is a problem of unregulated capitalism and not multiculturalism. Now, if you believe in capitalism and the good things of it, you also have to accept the bad things it brings as well aka the issues you mentioned in the post.
IntelligentGur9638@reddit
There are indeed side effects like low birth rate, Incels, depression, and all that stuff. Also true that Europe has very different cultures and society models, ie family bonds are stronger in the south while in the north brothers may not even speak together. Poorer countries have otherwise plenty of other problems as well that probably none of us would consider acceptable in daily life
PS, I'm likely one of those that will die alone in the flat
rmk556x45@reddit
This is actually true, and I have seen this with my own family as someone who was born in Latin America and has lived in the U.S. and Europe before. I think it’s also true it’s more city vs rural culture. If you go to the countryside in Europe and the USA people tend to be tighter knit partly out of necessity and community.
Aar_7@reddit
Not to mention it is actual two sided sword.
You're not free to live your authentic life. The society will disown your or even harm you if don't stay on your lane.
Your life's decision-making belongs to the close-knit society. You're not free basically.
IntelligentGur9638@reddit
I don't see it necessarily so extreme. society wellbeing over individual wellbeing. it's a different way of seeing things. and tbh the western individualism is going way too far. a healthy mix would be the best
Aar_7@reddit
This show's you see only sugar coated version it. Ask any former Muslim who bacame athiest & can never go back to his Islamic country because Deáth penalty is waiting for him.
There millions of those Ex-muslims people. That's just 1 example, Gays are another example.
213737isPrime@reddit
There is a word for what you're feeling: anomie
WeakDoughnut8480@reddit
What's the TLDR of this. Jesus
2kokuoyabun@reddit
Well... several Vietnamese will trade places. I moved to Asia from UK and have travelled extensively in Asia, there's nothing like UK. What you might miss might in in the family context.
My brother movex to Munich n what a boring place. My Munich born n bred mate agreed and called it boring ax ... Tradition exists in UK if one is not from a dysfunctional family.
When people/country becomes wealthier, folks rely less on 'community' and more on self. Happens in Vietnam too.
Candid-Display7125@reddit
Tradeoffs, as with all things.
We fought for freedom from the downside of the old ways so that we could work out how to be free for the upside of new meaningful traditions.
EverythingElse42@reddit
I for one agree with you. As a foreigner, someone with a passport from the bottom 10 and having traveled alot!
I have seen the developed countries - major cities!
The migration is fine, I understand people wanting a better life, the speed and exponentially of the move hasn't given any one a chance to assimilate.
I dont like what has happened to London. Take white chapel for example! Come on!.
Bytowner1@reddit
A yes, the good old days in Whitechapel, famously immortalized in a book called The People of the Abyss, and, more famously, Jack the Ripper. WTF are you actually talking about?
DrawingNo6204@reddit
I am from South Africa currently living in the Netherlands. This way of seeing the developing world feels a bit like someone sitting in a beach resort in some poor country sipping a martini and contemplating how more meaningful the life is for the people outside the fence trying to find food so they don't go to bed hungry, if there is a bed to go back to. Then mostly forgetting about them as your dinner comes.
I can only speak for Southern Africa but if you are poor in those societies you are just poor. In some of the informal settlements (getto's) people live there is more of a community than you will find in richer gated communities (people live in closer proximity and have to stand together for protection) but the violence more than negates any advantages that gives.
Valuable_Echo2043@reddit
I feel that this is a common sentiment among people from Anglo-centric countries, possibly because their culture is seen as "the norm", so-to-speak (i.e., especially American culture, it's so popular around the world that it's hard to remember that it is a culture in itself). I don't really hear this from people in France, Germany, Poland, etc.
Grass looks greener on the other side. You also have less flexibility in what your future career is (my wife wanted to be a photographer but her mom insisted on tourism; guess which career she's pivoting into in her late 30s). Additionally, families oftentimes are toxic, some way more than others. And the "blood over others" can easily be manipulated to coerce children to be loyal to their parents, regardless of how they're treated. If you're a white male, I recommend asking the women immigrant from those countries how they think about cultural norms back home.
This exists in non-Western countries as well, unfortunately. But I'd agree that this is a huge part of the problem for why life can feel empty - we were raised to shop as a way to get dopamine hits, rather than by resorting to healthier outlets. Pick up playing the piano, learn a new language, etc., and you'll start to feel more whole again.
Speaking as a white woman from Anglo-centric country married to a woman from Mexico. I used to have the same thoughts but I now realize that it's a lot more nuanced than it looks.
SubstantialSky7127@reddit
It's a global city phenomenon. I would argue that it's a combination of several factors. I agree with you in that I think that cultural heterogeneity can weaken the fabric of society; it's hard for people or groups of people with opposing or conflicting cultural norms and values to relate to one another, which leads to a natural tendency to self-segregation. This is quite visible in modern western cities where isolated small groups or even neighbourhoods form composed of specific cultural backgrounds. This distance between groups can stir a sensation of being surrounded by people yet somehow separate from each other that drives a sense of loneliness, at least for me.
Another major factor is the development of a sort of survival mode in cities. The larger the city, the more expensive commodities/ownership in general is and the more people tend to rely on services. If you don't own, but you rent everything from your public transport, your car, your appartment, your memberships etc, you need a very large and continuous income source to make survival possible. You can never cease working or you will very quickly drown. This is an important reason for this hyperindependent/individualism mindset that you can feel in large cities, another major source of unhappiness for a hominid that evolved to live in groups of 20-50 tightly bound individuals.
Difficult_Pop8262@reddit
That's how it is. The determining factor is money. Wealth.
When you are rich, you don't need anyone to get through. You pay your way through problems and you expect others to do so. You probably also don't have a lot time in your hands and because everything is tied to money, everything is a contract that needs fulfilling. With more disposable income, you go try to use money in hobbies and things to ease the disconnection, but it was money what brought you there.
Enter poverty: there is a favor economy that keeps everyone depending on each other. This is not parasitical because people find themselves enjoying helping others and will look into doing it out of the satisfaction it brings. People have more free time to help. Because nothing is contractually obligated, people can tell others to fuck off and go do whatever they feel is best.
You can see this in real life, today. Go to Italy. Visit the rich north, and visit the poor south and you will be able to repeat your experience within a single country which is one of the worlds top economies.
I grew up in a third world country and lived in Germany, the Netherlands, France, Spain, Italy, Malta. I see two main aspects:
Again, money. Money and individualism are inter-connected.
Religion: Catholic areas are warmer and more communistic that Protestant areas. But for example, you see how Italy, being 100% catholic, is vastly different North versus South. So Religion only has a smaller cultural effect in my opinion.
palbuddy1234@reddit
Better than my than my response and agreed.
Diegoallen@reddit
Completely agree. Have dual citizenship from a LATAM country and a western european with strong welfare. Have traveled extensively. This is exactly the difference I see.
qwerty-yul@reddit
For sure. As a Vietnamese friend once told me: The problem with Vietnam is that everyone is in your personal affairs all the time. The problem with the West is that you can die alone in an apartment and nobody would even notice.
angarali06@reddit
this is true.. but which would you prefer? I’d rather tolerate some nosy Parkers, than have a society where everyone only cares about themselves.
Aar_7@reddit
It is actual two sided sword.
You're not free to live your authentic life. The society will disown your or even harm you if don't stay on your lane.
Your life's decision-making belongs to the close-knit society. You're not free basically.
This-Wall-1331@reddit
You went to those countries on vacation. Just ask any local there how life really is.
184627391594@reddit
I agree with this to a certain extent. Every country has its pros and cons. Obviously when you vacation somewhere for a few weeks you see the good and don’t experience the cons. everything seems great. But I did recently come across another post about this exact topic and local Vietnamese people were commenting about how they had actually spent years living in developed countries and prefered to be back in Vietnam where they had a sense of community and more support. From what I observed in developing countries, people help each other more. If someone does not have food, their neighbours will make sure they eat and are supported. It is quite different from developed countries but again ever country has it’s pros and cons.
2000jp2000@reddit
Well we have a lot more liberties and the freedom of living in relatively liberal countries.
Especially for women that is not to be underestimated and to me worth a lot more than any sense of nationalist or tradition. I actually feel more scared about many European countries having become much more nationalistic than say 10 years ago.
austin06@reddit
Thank you. A lot of these more traditional cultures rely on the free labor of women.
Agile-Adagio-8782@reddit (OP)
Totally valid. As a man I realise there is so much I don't see or don't have to think about.
alloutofbees@reddit
You're longing for the good old monocultural days of the UK and Germany? I really hope you didn't actually think this through.
Agile-Adagio-8782@reddit (OP)
I realise my post could be interpreted like this. That's why I wrote my disclaimer. It's more of an observation about how different societies function.
In case it's not perfectly clear, I have absolutely no wish for any foreigners to be expelled from the UK or Germany. Sad times that I have to spell it out. I'm also an immigrant in Germany, not a German citizen.
Mission-Anybody-6798@reddit
Interesting ideas.
Personally I think there are multiple things at play. In the west, we have more opportunities to choose which way we want to live. You can live a simpler, rural, more ‘connected to a sense of place’ kind of life, or you can live a more urban style if that suits you. The money difference isn’t as dramatic. Whereas in other parts of the world, if you live a rural style of life you’re potentially much closer to poverty.
Another aspect to me at least is how capitalism has ground down the sense of community in the west. It feels to me like that’s what you’re experiencing in your travels, a community. It’s present in the west, just harder to find. And because you’re from the west, you can identify the built in limitations to it. Sure, it’s great to have a sense of community, until you get tired of everyone knowing your business, making judgements, and acting accordingly. But as an expat you’re always on the outside, so it’s not as noticeable, it’s not as relevant. The bubble protects you.
I don’t know man, it’s some food for thought.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
These "strong cultural identity" arguments are why people eventually turn right wing and instead of taking advantage of cultural diversity as a strength, then end up doing the opposite and vote demented bullshit like Brexit and then cry that the economy is going to shit. Also, you talk about consumerism while comparing countries with very different average/median purchase power metrics. What consumerism do you expect to see if many people barely get by?
schaweniiia@reddit
I feel like you're judging this from a very city-centric position. Berlin for instance is culturally very different from the rest of Germany. Have you lived in similarly expat-centric areas in those other countries?
At least for Germany, I'm from a very rural area in Germany and we're highly traditional with strong family ties. I don't know many people in that area who aren't.
paying_for_streaming@reddit
i´m curious, since you live in a rural part of germany. here in austria especially local dialects started to "die" a while ago. especially since youtube is so big.
also i feel like a lot of traditions get more and more influenced by murica. the coca cola truck is probably one of the more prominent examples. same goes for the "weihnachtsmann". here in austria we have a the "christkind", but apperantly younger people celebrate the weihnachtsmann more and more. tbf, i can´t really confirm this, since it´s personal experience. so it might be different in other families/friend groups.
2000jp2000@reddit
Good point.
bruhbelacc@reddit
How is that a positive thing? My family comes from such a culture and they almost all despise each other, but stick around because of obligation combined with scarce resources (no money to live on your own or pay off your mortgage). For example, there aren't nannies or affordable plumbers and electricians, so you need to rely on your father for the latter. And as a man, you must help around. Women in the family are assumed to be free babysitters even when the kid is 7 years old, even when they are still working (e.g., my grandparents look after their grandson 3 times a week and don't dare protest against it because of expectations). It's reached a point where they automatically ask if he's going to spend the weekend with them.
And when I say despise, I mean it. They always gossip and criticize each other behind each other's back and have huge fights. My grandma hated the guts of her own mother and you won't believe if I told you how they talked about each other. Yet, they lived in the same house.
Helpful-Staff9562@reddit
I felt the same when going to thailand, indonesia, Vietnam, mexico, brazil, Colombia, etc. Western europe is not what it used to be, values and culture have gone to sh**. Tbh i would not mind living in one of the above mentioned countries as it feels like there people really "live"
This-Wall-1331@reddit
What do you mean by "what it used to be"? Like before 1945?
moiwantkwason@reddit
You romanticize community-based cultures. You only see the warmth and the sense of belonging in such culture. Yeah, people rely on the community in such culture, but at the expense of individual freedom. You are gay? You are just in a phase, marrying a woman and having children will cure you. You are a woman and you want to be single and be career-oriented? You are out of your mind. Find a good husband and take care of your kids. You are trans? You are mentally ill, go to the mental asylum or your life is now on the street. Your community has a rigid social structure for it to work, don't rock the boat. Your community cares about your well-being that they are in your business all the time. They gossip about you to force conformity. "Did you hear about Linda last week? She got into an accident, let's go to the hospital.", "Isn't she a lesbian? She is going to hell. That's god's punishment.".
Community-based culture is not unicorn and rainbow. It is rigid. It is conformity. They shame and guilt you to mold you into one of them. Social mobility is non-existent, you are a piece of the puzzle, don't break things.
colorbluh@reddit
I see what you mean, but it's also A) specifically the UK and Germany B) specifically a big city thing A lot of places in the EU have that warm/traditional feeling, lots of smaller or midsize towns in Germany/France with strong regional culture, Italy/Greece in general, and probably a lot more places I haven't been to.
Berlin and big city UK are specifically rainy and cold which contributes to that feeling of isolation, Berlin has huge empty streets and lots of concrete, people in UK/DE keep to themselves and keep a surface of politeness that can read as cold. Your examples are very specifically colder/more restrained in general, but you can also "make" your ties there.
When you are in a foreign country, you see all kinds of groups, but when you live somewhere, you mostly see your friends and people similar to you, becaus ethey go to the same places as you, the same activities, they can afford the same things and activities. If you want to have warmth and closeness/openness in colder places, you have to find warm people and create your warmth. Find a bar that becomes your regular hangout, volunteer for something, make traditions with your friends, start being more outgoing.
So yeah, the examples you cite are more reserved than other countries, but also more reserved than western countries in general. The openness you see elsewhere is more present, but you also notice it more because YOU are more outgoing and adventurous when you're there. You can move to a more culturally open continent/country/city, but it won't change anything if you don't cultivate that openness in yourself.
palbuddy1234@reddit
I do and in a way I think people can afford to be individualistic if that makes sense. I'm in Switzerland so some locals are with a lack of a better term grouchy. They don't make friends easily or often as they can kind of buy their way to not relying on other people.
Being in other less developed countries there is a big social network and if you're grouchy, don't make friends easily, life is much harder as you can't share the burden of life together. You can't rely on the state but in Switzerland you more or less can.
I don't know if that makes sense, I'll think about it more but for now that's what I think about what you're talking about.
sovietbarbie@reddit
Perhaps start getting involved with your community, join cultural groups, start a book happy hour club in your nieghborhood or among others who are searching for the same thing ?
I think you are right about many things, but if you want community and culture, sometimes we have to be the ones to create it ourselves, whatever that means for us individually
Moist-Ninja-6338@reddit
Your comments are spot on. No need to apologize in your last paragraph. I didn’t realize what you are describing until after living in Latin America. Having lived in the UK, Canada, US it wasn’t till living in two different Latin American countries that I discovered exactly the same thing. Written written post.