Senior dev executing at Intermidate level wants a raise
Posted by Primary_Ads@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 224 comments
The situation is, I have two senior devs on my team. One's great, owns the domain he's been assigned, is able to balance onboarding, feature work, bug fixes and addressing technical debt with appropriate levels of involvement from me. orchestrates and organizes across departments to get things done. Easy to manage, which I really value. He can provide good PR reviews to other devs. He's competent when it comes to production troubleshooting. And the quality of his work surpasses what I could do on the side of my desk, which is ultimately how I evaluate whether someone is addresing technical debt or adding to it.
The other senior dev has historically been someone I could depend on to get things done. However, that was back in the early days when really, we just needed to get anything at all together. The past year or so his performance has been below senior. More like mid-level. He needs to be explicitly directed by me, doesn't really cover any essential areas, doesn't want to do work which is "a waste of time" even though I'm the one assigning him tasks, and complains about other departments quite a lot without actually bringing any solutions. He does a soso at his assigned work, doesn't show initative and requires me to micro manage his work.
a few times I asked him to do things, he did them, but then forgot to merge the PR after approval and missed the release window a few days out. I find myself doing work I should ostensibly be assigning to him just to get it done properly and on time.
He is capable of heavier lifts than I have time for in addition to my managerial duties. he helps onboard clients and makes sure it gets done. and its not like he does nothing. but he is the most expensive member of my team already and easily the lowest performing as of this year.
Last year he asked for a raise, and my ex-boss at the time said no, as he really didn't like this guy. I argued to keep him around as my ex-boss had a "one out, no in" policy. but he's moved on and this isn't an issue anymore.
I've had conversations level setting with him about expectations, and he says he'll do better, but I never see lasting change beyond a week or two.
End of year raises and bonuses are coming up. I don't want to pay him any more, nor do I want to give him any bonus as he is already to expensive for what I am getting out of him. How have others dealt with this situation?
chikamakaleyley@reddit
yeah i think you have to explicitly say to him the level he's performing at, where he's coming up short. The title he has, inflates his understanding of his own skill, so as as he's concerned he's operating at a senior level.
Some people just need a reality check when they aren't performing at a level you need them to be at. He's got a perfect example of what the model is - the other senior. Why he's not able to recognize that himself and make an adjustment could really be an indicator of really how unhappy he is with his compensation.
But dont compare him to the other engineer, compare him to the defined expectations of this role.
RepulsiveFish@reddit
I have a feeling there isn't really a defined expectation for the role, considering how it seems to have secretly shifted since the new employees have been brought on. If that's the case, maybe OP should think about actually defining what the expectations are before deciding whether this employee meets them or not, and also make sure those expectations have actually been communicated to the employee.
chikamakaleyley@reddit
but first, if anything, give him the benefit of the doubt and find out if there's something outside of his work affecting his ability to do the job. If there is, then maybe it explains a little bit of whats going on. In this case, it's not about making an exception for him, but more about how you can support him to at least get help him get the job done while he's on the job
ceirbus@reddit
Was doing great, denied raise, now puts in minimal effort - am I tracking this correctly?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
he was never great.
Athomas1@reddit
You keep saying this but objectively he was great for the skills you needed at the time, you’ve alluded to it yourself in other comments. He just isn’t great now for what your company needs.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
basically
Athomas1@reddit
If you were better at your job he would be better at his.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
probably true but thats my bosses problem.
Temporary-Scholar534@reddit
How can you say that? Would you be happy to hear your stellar engineer say something like that?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
if my performance is poor, causing my reports performance to be poor, ultimately it is my bosses problem to have me replaced with someone more effective. i can do my best but its ultimately up to others to decide if I am fit to hold this role or not.
if I was better at my job, he likely would be better at his job. but I am not. so it is up to my boss to decide what to do about that.
kknow@reddit
Mate, you asked questions and got so much input from experienced devs and you take zero advice on how the problem could be tackled.
You rather want to wait until someone writes "fire him" and then you take the easy way out.
I got to a managerial position by always wanting to learn - what happened in your case? It's not an issue to make mistakes, just listen and learn and do it better.
Your responses sound arrogant as fuck
sieabah@reddit
It's actually your problem since you're the manager of their performance.
sfscsdsf@reddit
you are literally fk up as a manager, one of the worst to start wanting to kick people out and deny their efforts
sieabah@reddit
So the fact that you're able to collect a paycheck today from the work he did to establish the company in the past...
Dude, he fucking helped build the company to the point that it still pays your fucking bills. Get over your ego.
Kpratt11@reddit
So he was key in doing a lot of the work that then allowed the company to grow massively and hire great engineers.
He is denied a raise and now you his manager is trying to scheme to get rid of him.
For his sake I hope he finds someone better to work under than you
RepulsiveFish@reddit
So it sounds like, in addition to what everyone else is saying about how not recognizing the good work he has done by denying him a raise in the past, you're also not assigning him work that plays to his strengths.
If there is work that needs quick and dirty solutions, assign that to him. If that's what he's good at and there's a business need for it, let him do it. If there isn't enough business need for a senior dev who handles problems that need a quick and dirty solution, then have that conversation with him.
jaegernut@reddit
Why are you keeping him if he was never great? Do you have problems with attracting competent devs that it seems you have no choice but to tolerate mediocre ones?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
everyone else is excellent, thats part of the reason standards improved so much.
FlashBrightStar@reddit
So you've managed to attract better performers for less money because they probably need the job desperately. Congrats for underpaying them then - you did the excellent job. No matter what you say the situation is fucked up.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
they're software devs they'll be fine.
Red-Catalyst@reddit
You didn't answer the question lol
weIIokay38@reddit
But you’re paying the excellent engineers less than this dude??? This sounds like incompetence all the way down the chain.
JivesMcRedditor@reddit
I never got to say this to my shitty managers of past, so thank you for being a surrogate. I loathe your type of corporate dick sucking, ego tripping on the slightest hint of authority middle management.
Fuck you, I hate you and I hate this shitty world where smug pricks like you make a decent wage off the work of actually talented employees. You follow the orders of dumb fuck suits who shield themselves from their own dumb decisions, lay off the people working to feed their families, and enrich themselves at the same time.
Fuck you
skodinks@reddit
If this is true, and not just you editorializing history, then fire him. There's no decision to be made. He made it by being shit for a year.
I'd say you fucked up if you haven't had this conversation with him already, though. He should know he's underperforming. If he does, great, he's out of chances. Fire him. If you didn't tell him, then it's gonna feel pretty shitty from his perspective if he wasn't "sandbagging" on purpose.
Some people think they're doing fine when they aren't. Sometimes a kick in the ass helps. It sounds like you're well past that point, though.
ceirbus@reddit
Im beginning to question your management skills if a guy who isn’t that great expects a 20% raise, did you not give this guy feedback about this?
Whitticker@reddit
One thing is very clear from your post: your assessment of this engineer’s value no longer matches how he sees himself—and you’ve let that gap sit for about a year.
You also helped create it. Last year he asked for a big raise, you decided he was replaceable, and you went with “let’s just do inflation and see if he leaves.” He didn’t leave—but his engagement did. That doesn’t excuse the current performance, but this isn’t just a “bad senior dev” problem. It’s also a you problem.
I’ve managed managers. The pattern you’re in (underperforming senior, no re-level, no performance plan, no real development conversation) is exactly where I’d push someone to stop hovering and make a call. You’re in the worst middle ground: high cost, low output, no path forward.
You have two options.
Re-engage him for real. Spell out what “senior” means on your team now, show him exactly where he’s short, give him measurable goals and a timeline, and be explicit about consequences. Do this if you actually believe he can get back to senior-level work.
Or accept he’s not the right fit for this stage and start the separation process. If you wouldn’t hire him again at this level and comp, keeping him in limbo isn’t fair to anyone.
What you can’t do is keep running the current play: senior title, senior salary, declining performance, no raise, no formal performance management. That’s not stable. You’re reinforcing disengagement while delaying an inevitable decision.
This subreddit is mostly ICs. They’re answering “was he treated fairly?”—not “what do I do with an underperforming senior?” Don’t confuse the two. Make the call.
mgalexray@reddit
Those ICs are not wrong. Today the world is full of EMs where only tool in their belt is a PIP and they tend to break down under pressure when things go wrong. It’s easy to be a manager of a highly functioning team, but that’s not the job. Job is to see the self reflection and that they are usually responsible for the problems, not the other way around. As the saying goes, people don’t leave jobs, just bad bosses. And those bosses are usually a net negative anyway.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
thanks. this is very helpful
grilledcheesestand@reddit
By far the best response in this post.
schmidtssss@reddit
You sound like the problem, tbh.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
how so
exvertus@reddit
Because you are in a leadership position and lack the most essential ingredient to being a good leader—humility.
You have refused to accept any responsibility for a situation you contributed to. You've made several responses throughout this thread, have yet to admit any fault, while dismissing or ignoring criticism. That tells me you made this post solely seeking validation, and that you have no intention of self-reflecting, learning/growing, or leading with empathy. Listening to feedback is essential for that and you're demonstrating that you cannot do it.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
look i don't care how many people say I should give him a raise. its not happening.
exvertus@reddit
Never said that, and that is yet another dodge. Your ego is in the way big time here.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
what feedback are you referring to then
exvertus@reddit
The fact you started by criticizing your employee, because he "doesn't show initative (sic)", and now you are asking what feedback I'm referring to, when you have an entire thread of it right in front of you, is a great example of your hypocrisy.
It illustrates how much you've projected your own failings onto your employee. He's become your scapegoat. You don't think you have anything to learn. To you there is no wrong to admit to, so you subconsciously heap your own sins onto your employee to avoid acknowledging your own imperfection.
Your employee doesn't need to be fired or issued a PIP. You do.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
nice deflection
MatthewMob@reddit
It's absolutely you that's the problem.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
i literally have no idea what that guy is going on about. admitting i messed up doesn't change my situation.
sieabah@reddit
You came to this subreddit for advice and lack the literacy to understand what everyone is saying. Don't you think that should concern you?
It does, because it starts the process of allowing yourself to admit that you can be wrong. It allows you to develop the skillset of being humble and understanding that you literally cannot force anyone to do anything. They'll either find it worth their time or not.
You mismanaged expectations and took a situation which could be improved and more or less trashed it because you wanted to be "right." Take it literally from another SWE -> Manager. Your ego is your problem and until you can see that you really won't be able to be a better manager. Ever.
Management is understanding that there is literally no "right" way to do anything.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
you're saying I'm not taking feedback but the feedback I am getting is I am not humble enough, my ego is too large and until that's fixed I will never be a good manager.
that doesn't actually in any way, shape or form help me in my current situation. it is not actionable. concluding there is no right way to do anything doesn't change the fact I need to make a decision about how to handle the scenario I am in.
sieabah@reddit
Excellent, you comprehended the denial phase.
You're right, that was mostly to get your attention with upvotes. It will help your future though once you can acknowledge and ask yourself the questions about what being humble is. It's understanding that you are two individual people. Yes, you've had a past so far. That doesn't matter right now. It really doesn't. What you need to focus on is forward. Yes he has been underperforming. Let's talk about what he'll do on Monday. Will he underperform, or will you setup the next week to work with them on a plan to promotion. You offer the raise either conditionally or not. How about you don't take for granted he continued to work for the company not knowing whether or not it would exist the following year. Let's not take for granted the insider information you have about the company performance the engineers mostly never know.
Great, where are we? We want to set him up to succeed. Yes, he hasn't been, but why do we want him to fail? Why do we want to punish him for being upset at being denied a raise? Yes, pride in the company mission. Pride, in not getting taken advantage of. This is generally what I mean when I say get over your ego. It's taking a moment to understand your reactions to how you work with them. What you've been doing clearly isn't going to work with them and the goal is to have something rigid that you both can point to. This serves specifically two purposes. You kind of need to have a set of goals set for a (reasonable) period of time if you want to have a rock solid plan to fire someone. It is something that you both can agree to accomplish. Yes, this guy might demand 20%, but it's also possible that you offer a fractional bonus of that 20% over 4 quarters upon "exceptional" performance?
What you also need to do is directly inform the stakeholders involved with him of this process (if they're relevant, obviously don't divulge inner matters with external customers), and do the time accounting for delays if they don't perform. It is the nuclear option as it directly points the finger and alleviates you from their poor performance. You don't need to be overtly dickish about it, a casual mention that, "you're working with him on performance and to let you know if they run into any problems," would work.
Part of the skill in management is understanding gibberish and extracting action items. Have you never run a retro before? /s
We're not involved in your employment, but generally if you're in the US you only really have to avoid wrongful termination lawsuits. Whether or not they're legitimate because it places an immediate financial burden equal or greater than their salary. Depending on the lawyer.
Part of it is we don't know what you really want to do. It is time and effort for someone to more or less coach you into a better manager based on what they think would work. It also takes an amount of ego to have the gall to post their thoughts on the matter. There are management books, but what you're really needing in the short term is a framework to coerce performance. It sounds harsh, but it's no different from a PIP without all the established ceremony.
This framework is an formal agreement to establish an expectation and a reward. The hard part that none of us redditors can do is actually define what that performance looks like because it varies per sector(fin/agr/soc/gov/...) and team. However, you can define that. You set the goals that you think they could achieve. Yes, that is what you're already doing! The difference is you get them to agree, and you offer it with the pay structure that works for you. This is your "whip," and upon the end of the evaluation period (3 months?) you can either award the full or fractional amount depending on whether you think they actually put in effort.
This allows them to make the choice of whether it's worth it to maintain their prior performance. It also allows you the convenience of choosing a flexible bonus to give the illusion of partial participation success.
The key here is that all the extra "managing" you have to do for him is no longer on your plate. That is correctly their responsibility, right? It is also different from how you are compensating everyone else, yes. You're trying to manage someone "up" or "out."
Most can't really describe what exactly you should do because it highly depends on your specific tasks. I have no idea what you're building. I can only describe vague frameworks that require you to draw the rest of the owl. You can read into that as providing you with useless tools or with a framework that has proven results. The most important part is the agreement between you and them to the performance goals.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I guess I see what you are saying. its a reasonable approach that definitely provides me with more cover than moving fast. freeing up funds is why I am tempted to exit, then I could hire someone who would be able to perform adequately and productively in the short term. but it burns my social capital with the rest of the ICs, since no one likes seeing people let go this time of year and I'm basically taking on all the risk if it doesn't work out smoothly.
you make some.l good suggestions around priming other stakeholders and laying out performance as per what my expectations are. for whatever reason I feel if he could perform at the level I want he already would be but maybe I'll be surprised.
MinimumArmadillo2394@reddit
The "its not happening" line gets me here. Absolutely insane.
AbbreviationsFar4wh@reddit
Lol proved his point. Horrible listener.
Red-Catalyst@reddit
Lol, then why are you even here? You're getting honest feedback, but you only want validation.
Cool_As_Your_Dad@reddit
My dude. I’m reading all these replies and you can’t see the message?
Your ego/attitude is terrible. I do feel for the people working under you
Jaeriko@reddit
I don't even think people are really arguing for that, just that you're not really being a good manager.
col0rcutclarity@reddit
The best part is how you say he doesn't work in any critical areas, then you nitpick about some random PR that didn't make it in. Sounds like fun.
weIIokay38@reddit
You’re paying your supposed top performers less than this dude (he’s the “most expensive member of your team”), you have vague poorly defined (if at all) performance expectations, you do not help unblock work as it is your job to do, and in another comment you say you might just let him go and dump all of his work onto other people. You sound like a nightmare and it’s no wonder the dude is demotivated to work hard.
schmidtssss@reddit
Almost the entirely thing you wrote. I’m kind of drunk watching football but, like, I think you need to seriously rethink your thought processes around performance and how you consider it.
obelix_dogmatix@reddit
LOL … sounds more of a managerial failure than anything else. IC is clearly coasting because he doesn’t care if you let him go or not. Come on. Don’t you see the correlation between him being denied the raise and him not putting in the effort. Have you clearly communicated to him that there is no chance of that raise? Why don’t you just let him go if he is such a pain to deal with?
sieabah@reddit
My goal with this diatribe is to provide a stark contrast to nearly every corpo-bullshit response you'll get from most "managers" and give you the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of this equation.
Considering how much care you put into typing
addressingcorrectly, I doubt you have the wherewithal to properly evaluate the true complexity of the work. Since you so simply wave away all of the investigatory and planning that sometimes is invisible. It's so easy to critique the PR after all the hard work is done. You even get a simple overview of what files are relevant to the problem! Programming on EZ street.Let me guess, until you denied them compensation bump for doing well for so long? Wow, I wonder why they stopped caring how you felt when it was clear it didn't matter in the first place.
So you don't reward loyalty for sticking around? You want output-output-output. Use an AI. I'm sure it'll give you exactly what you want when you ask really well.
You didn't reward the behavior that you liked so of course he's not going to continue it. He got a negative response for what he thought was a good job. You thought he was doing well until then. So it's clear he's waiting for direction from you in order to know how to perform his role, since you fucked up the messaging.
His prior stellar performance didn't get the recognition so he's going backwards until you tell him what you actually want. You directly told him that his prior performance was not good enough nor relevant. Could have thrown him a bonus just to keep him hooked, but no. That's too much money. Meanwhile you'll probably blow more on travel or an offsite for "team building."
Nice typo on initiative too.
Incredible, almost like you hired a human. You made typos I'd never expect a competent technical manager to make. Especially for words like "initiative" and "addressing," two of the most overused words in management and software.
Sounds like you could have merged it and let him know to keep up on merging to not miss deadlines. Instead you waited on him to fail and then the failure became your problem? Are you trying to be high performance manager or be an annoying prick?
He doesn't know what work you want him to do since you directly told him that the great performance he was doing wasn't what you really wanted since you didn't give any award. What you're doing right now is an informal "PIP," you are directly giving exactly what to do since that's the expectation you set. If you want him to perform at the level you want you have to specify that exactly at this point. You give feedback on how well he's approaching it. If they fail over 2-3 months you can fire them. If you try to rush the PIP, don't expect anything. If you announce you're going to PIP them, they'll look elsewhere.
The scenario you're looking at is you're about to lose an engineer, so all the work you're complaining about is about to become YOUR responsibility if you can't retain that engineer. I guess you could offload to the other senior and then critique their lack of performance when you end up having to do some of their work. I'm sure that will go over really well.
I would say you fucked up your duty by not properly giving the right encouragement. Now you've made your own job harder, congrats. Welcome to the real world of management and dealing with peoples emotions.
So you'd rather stop paying them and have none of that talent? What is your end goal here, to be right or to run a valuable team that delivers results? It sounds like you want to be right more than valuable.
Call his bluff? Either way it sounds like he likes the WLB or maybe they don't realize how bad this industry is right now. Regardless you haven't given any TC or vague range of what the pay is. 20% could be reasonable if you're underpaying them. Say for example your "senior" makes 100k, 120k isn't a huge jump. 150k is perfectly attainable for a senior as valuable as you say they are capable of.
Well let's keep the advice of the ex-boss around, that'll make the company run well! From how you've described it, you lost this engineer and they're doing the minimum until they're fired or they leave. Do what you will with that info.
You do realize it's more insulting to deny a raise then give an invalid inflation-adjusted salary. Do you realize how much inflation occurred in the last 5 years alone?
I hope you understand that denying a raise without a reasonable reason more often backfires and increases the expectation? If you're already doing all of their work for them what difference does it make if they're employed? Fire and replace, spend the time to find someone in this shitty AI-driven fake-resume market, attempt to train them and then maybe they actually perform for your subpar salary. Then repeat the process when they ask for a raise.
Build a successful team that functions instead of being focused on how "right" you are.
Did you bother to acknowledge the improvement actively during the week? Makes barely any fucking difference if you wait a month to let them know they were good for 2 weeks then failed. You sound more and more like a low performance manager who thinks because they can program they're gifted at managing software teams.
I think it's abundantly clear if you deny this raise they're going to leave and it'll be all your work soon enough. How about this; You can approach the raise on a contingency. Call it a "promotion," to warrant the increase in salary you now have a Senior II or Staff Engineer. You can now change the expectations and either demand more performance for the salary or let them go. As an added bonus you can rid yourself of the "problematic" engineer through title inflation and they use that to find employment elsewhere. Give a good review and have it be someone else's problem if you don't want to fire them.
I think it's comical you're constantly comparing to their peers. Do you want to retain that specific engineer or not? Perhaps the problem is that engineer recognizes they're underpaid and the rest don't. Ask yourself this question, what would happen if everyone knew each others' salaries. Would they ask for more or would they be content? Everyone has a different skillset and values and that is represented in the salary. Titles are not 1:1 to a salary, but a salary band. Exceptional talent can command an exceptional salary. Either you'll be paying or it someone else will.
When it comes to deadlines and performance you don't have to do their work. You're underestimating their output and trying to create commitments for the team that they don't want to meet.
With all of that said, if you're dealing with a psychotic SWE who has an ego way bigger than their potential then go through with the promotion -> firing pipeline. It works 100% of the time and no one ever expects to be fired right after being promoted. In fact, if you want to be really nasty about it. Say you're promoting them from "mid" to "senior" since their performance has matched mid and the 20% pay bump is to get them back into the "senior" role. They'll take this one of two ways, "Great, I'll get right on that." or "I thought I was already senior, but thanks for the raise!"
Then. Do the evaluation the way you want it to be. Give them clear and distinct goals and if they miss; give them a notice on the first of the month. No need to be an asshole and fire them at the end of the month to give them zero chance to have health insurance during their job hunt. Unless you really want to make it painful, but I must advise you that being vindictive can also result in unintended not-so-good things. Remember, You're dealing with real people who can do very real things.
devchapin@reddit
Lol, so we are gonna criticize his spelling now, crazy.
sieabah@reddit
I mean, I have capitalize on their performance here. /s
arthoer@reddit
These comments are gold. OP is seriously oblivious or ignorant.
AbbreviationsFar4wh@reddit
Yea OP comments is starting to just sound like trolling they’re so oblivious
dweezil22@reddit
Lol I skimmed your post and knew you were gonna get roasted. It's impossible to know what the actual day to day at your place is, and whether this guy is a hero whose burned out and you're a terrible manager or just someone that needs a new setting (it happens).
The answers are obvious and you've probably thought of them. You can:
Give him the raise (assuming you have authority?)
Give him no raise and see what happens. He'll either quit, stay and drag down morale, or stay and be fine.
Say he's not meeting expectations and move towards firing him.
You need to right down pros and cons for both the company and yourself for each of those three and see what wins. If you have 90% odds of being able to replace him with someone that' better for the team, options two and three win.
If a raise isn't going to cost you anything (or distort pay bands etc; like don't give him a raise above the super star) and he's good enough for now, fuck it, maybe do it. Not everyone has to be amazing.
You should find someone within your sphere to mentor you in terms of mgmt ASAP, this really isn't something that's best answered via reddit and the fact that you're having to ask is concerning for your companies mgmt chain.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
thanks this is a helpful post
Call_Me_User_0@reddit
It’s called a comment you dumbass manager
ImprovementMain7109@reddit
You’ve basically answered your own question: you’re paying “senior” title for intermediate output. That’s an incentive problem.
Write down what “senior” means in your org (ownership, cross-team impact, mentoring, quality, etc), show both devs the same rubric, tell the weaker one: “You’re here, raise is there. Here’s the concrete plan & timeline.” Then hold the line.
devchapin@reddit
The hate here is crazy. I don't think you said anything wrong. Just deny the rise, simple.
Inevitable_Net982@reddit
Give him the raise, communicate that his performance was not up to expectations. This will show you have trust he will do better, if no measurable change happens over few months fire him.
culturedgoat@reddit
This seems to be a “shit or get off the pot” situation. Do you want him on your team or not? If not, manage him out. If so, then determine what raise/bonus would be appropriate based on his performance, and furnish him with that. All this dilly-dallying and worrying over what he wants is pretty weak sauce management.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
there's no way I'm giving him a raise or a bonus.
culturedgoat@reddit
I think you should you resign. Management might not be your thing
360WindmillInTraffic@reddit
This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Managers and team leads getting paid 40% more than their team members only to have zero clue how to do their job. Lots of very good developers get promoted to these positions while they should be staying as IC. And then no one really reviews these people like they do for IC and employees get stuck under leadership with no leadership skills. I wish employers would ask reports to evaluate their leads and managers.
peripateticman2026@reddit
Hahahahaha! Okay, this made me genuinely laugh out loud. XD
Groove-Theory@reddit
And im going to go further. This person will miraculously be a "rockstar" under a new managers. Not the OP.
A bad manager that doesn't have your back is one of the biggest detriments to software quality.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
i hope so
Prestigious_Cod_8053@reddit
Don't worry though man, you'll continue to be a shitty mid-level manager long after he leaves.
chaitanyathengdi@reddit
ouch
eraserlimb@reddit
OP, name your company so I can avoid working under weak management
GarboMcStevens@reddit
Do you realize how much money it costs to replace someone?
Spend months axing someone, interviews, and then there’s no guarantee this FNG will be any better
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
yes i am familar with the process of replacing people.
Psychological-Tax801@reddit
I'm so confused by your phrasing about where "you" don't want to pay him more. Is this money coming out of your pocket?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I only get so much budget. everyone else has to pull harder because of this guy. I could hire someone who could lighten the load for everyone if he wasn't around.
Psychological-Tax801@reddit
From your replies - it is obvious that you've already figured out what you want. You want to fire him. So do that, but own that decision.
The struggle is that if you fire him and can't replace him adequately, it is going to reflect very badly on you. But it sounds like a good opportunity for you to take responsibility for your own management decisions.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I guess I was just wondering if anyone had any options besides PIPing him but it doesn't sound like it.
Dabli@reddit
Typically you should be advocating for your employees lol
basskittens@reddit
Up to a point. If they aren’t performing at the level expected, you have to have the hard conversations. I’ve been there, it sucks, but it’s why we get the big bucks and have the fancy titles.
Whitchorence@reddit
Yeah, but ideally that would happen sometime before you allowed them to believe their performance was so valued that they could reasonably ask for a 20% raise.
chaitanyathengdi@reddit
Or they are at a level where they feel they are paid 20% less than market rate and want to equalize.
Whitchorence@reddit
Let's be real here: huge raises like that are rare and are only happening if the company really wants to keep you (and even then you might need to have an offer in hand).
chaitanyathengdi@reddit
In that case that dev should leave and get that raise elsewhere is my guess.
Whitchorence@reddit
Right but he threatened to do that a year ago and didn't which kind of suggests that maybe that isn't possible.
sieabah@reddit
You're going to get responses in line with how you talk about this engineer. It's clear from your responses that you have an ego about being right. You believe you have this all figured out and that your way of managing this individual is right. Have you ever been wrong? Knowing that you're SWE-inclined I know you have an ego and I know "being right" is more important than having an understanding.
You need to be able to acknowledge that how you handled the discussion around the raise was wrong. You fucked up. It doesn't mean you can't recover from it, and it also means you can still salvage some performance here. You need to set the right expectations correctly and have a correct way to manage said expectations to that individual. You didn't give any compensation targets so for all we know we're arguing with someone who thinks 100k for a senior is "ouchie". Meanwhile the code that senior writes more than covers a majority of the companies bills. As you mentioned, they're part of the reason you still have a job at all.
Psychological-Tax801@reddit
Yeah, most people seem to be in favor of just giving him the raise - again, I genuinely think it's in favor of you to fight for this. It sounds like your company has grown, but your budget hasn't?
I'm not sure that there's any kind of like soft skills pep talk that will make someone feel better about getting 0 raise, as a senior dev, in a company that you describe as having the standards raise a lot recently.
recycled_ideas@reddit
If OP keeps him around but gives him zero raise while others get one it will make the situation a hundred times worse because the developer will know that what he's doing isn't valued and his care factor will drop to zero.
OP is a shitty manager who wants to take the absolute worst path for everyone involved because it's easiest. That's likely what's led to this situation in the first place assuming there actually is a problem and it's not a case that the other dev is just more willing to do OP's job for them. I've certainly seen managers that want devs to make decisions that are not remotely technical and then hammer the dev when they get it wrong.
Either way, OP needs to either fire this guy or pay him because if he doesn't things will get worse.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I think I just needed to hear this from someone.
This-Layer-4447@reddit
if he's already the most expensive and not pulling his weight and started doing the level of work he thinks you're paying him for, he's a bit fit for you guys, work with HR, either PIP him and see if he improves or lay him off and wait a while to rehire that position, I've been on both ends of the decision, I'll tell you even when you pay him more it doesn't make THAT much of a difference, at that point, so it's usually best to do what you ex boss said...the main reason your ex boss said as much I'll admit is cause the market has flipped to a employer's market so I can see how it makes sense
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
thanks this is helpful advice
culturedgoat@reddit
If you don’t give him a raise or bonus, you have to be very clear about why - and very clear about the pathway to redemption (essentially, a soft, informal PIP). And then you need to invest the time and attention into ensuring he improves to meet your standards.
The other option is to give him the opportunity to resign, with maybe some gardening leave time thrown in, so that he can get his next opportunity lined up.
sieabah@reddit
Your salary only exists because of the work they already did. Are you able to conceptualize the concept of time? 5 minutes ago vs 5 minutes from now? If you're not, get the fuck out of management and go be a janitor.
damnburglar@reddit
You should resign. You sound insufferable.
Whitchorence@reddit
OK, so he's looking for a 20% raise and you're thinking of firing him for performance issues. I think clearly you have failed to communicate your expectations or your thoughts on his performance.
Prudent-Session985@reddit
No bonus (if this is US based) is a dick move. If things are that dire it should have been addressed long ago.
Hog_enthusiast@reddit
Dumb question, but what do you mean by manage him out?
YareSekiro@reddit
It means make it clear that he has no real chance of promotion or substantial raises for him unless he crashes it, and gradually find other people to replace his tasks so when he leaves either voluntarily or involuntarily everything is covered.
xlb250@reddit
This would manage me in lol.
culturedgoat@reddit
Start the process to remove him.
Bjs1122@reddit
Sons like he probably shut down after not getting a raise last year and is no longer engaging and going the extra mile because to him it’s no longer worth it. I’m guessing that he probably no longer feels valued by the company.
I mean read your post again. Up until last year he was a rock star. Then last year he got denied for a raise. Seems pretty correlated to me.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
He was never a rock star. He was just better when the standard of work was lower.
Sensitive-Ear-3896@reddit
If the standard of work is higher it deserves higher pay
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
his work doesn't meet the standard, so why would he get paid more?
HugeSide@reddit
If your job demands from you, you get a raise, period. If that doesn’t happen you get into the situation you’re in now.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
no one else seemed to have this issue. just him. why is that?
sieabah@reddit
This is you.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
these are SWE being paid more than 99% of workers in the world, working remotely, with good benefits. if they dont like the job they can find another role. comparing them to actual slaves is insane.
sieabah@reddit
Cool, the world isn't where they live, now is it? You're paying to acquire that engineer where they live. I'm sorry you're offended people need money to live?
Cool, so that means you don't have to pay a lease on a giant office building and can afford to put that into wages.
If you don't cover 100% of the cost then you don't have "good" benefits. I also highly doubt your healthcare choices are "good."
It sounds like you want more than 40?
It sounds like they enjoy the job fine. It's you who has the problem with their performance. If they hated the job why would they work at all? It's clear they're doing enough to get by and you're the one on the internet throwing a hissy fit saying "NO I WON'T PAY HIM MORE NOO YOU CAN'T MAKE ME NOOOOOOOO!"
Look, you can either understand the situation you're in and try to make the most of it or do what you want and realize the network effects of firing someone who the team sees as "okay" is going to do you more harm than your petty feelings on compensation. I cannot understate this e-fucking-nough.
It's not insane with the language you use to describe your "employees." You expect more with the same compensation. You can just keep expecting more and more until something gives, right? Have you considered you've raised the expectations enough that if you fire this guy you're going to light a fire under everyone else to find employment elsewhere? Well, anyone worth a damn. The people who specifically can't find gainful employment out from under you, you're stuck with. Then you can abuse them to your hearts content like you want to.
Calling them slaves is the correct term for how you want to treat them.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
nah you aren't getting a pass on this; you cant compare US SWE to slaves, that's just not right.
sieabah@reddit
I think you'll come to realize how flawed of an understanding you have on US Employment in general.
They're slaves to employment in order to pay off their rental/mortgage. While you may not see it because it's a personal "choice," what real "choice" does anyone have towards renting or indebting themselves to the bank for 30 years? What do you think slavery is?
I'm correctly defining the type of employee you want. One that always does more at exceptional quality for the same price. You will drain and burn your entire team and extract all the value like a good manager. Feed the business by extracting value from your cattle.
MatthewMob@reddit
How do you sleep at night?
TheAlmightyDope@reddit
You're talking about a field that is predominantly of introverts that is currently going through a crisis and layoffs have been happening to their peers. In what world do you expect people to kick up a stink when it's safer to keep your head down?
HugeSide@reddit
The only issue is that most people don‘t know what they’re worth.
StormWhich5629@reddit
Have you asked him this question?
ObjectiveConsistent2@reddit
What a gross attitude you have. It wont be long for your new hires to dip out.
vincentdesmet@reddit
god most replies fail reading comprehension 101?
sounds like he is not focused, you can repeat that conversation, mention PIP (which may prompt him to resign anyway)
Groove-Theory@reddit
Ask yourself that question in reverse.
"He didnt get the raise, so why would he work to meet the standard"?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
but why would I keep paying someone who doesn't meet my standards?
sieabah@reddit
You're such a fucking SWE manager it's not even funny. Get over your fucking ego and it'll save you a lifetime of annoyances.
Your "standards" are your gauge for exceptional performance. Management is a balance between maintaining a team and delivery. Currently you're doing really bad at both because the team performance comes down to whether you can manage the emotions of real people.
If you keep this mindset of robotic people to a "standard" in your head you'll be constantly disappointed. Your goal should be to steer engineers towards performance and offer the right incentives. Unmotivated people won't work and you're seeing how your shitty management of this individual will only cause you more pains the more you try to "fix" them with the way you're shittily treating them like a cancer.
Groove-Theory@reddit
If someone stops meeting your standards, that’s usually a signal something DEEPER in the environment shifted. Could be trust, workload, alignment, burnout, compensation, or how supported they feel. Anything can do it.
It's YOUR job as a manager to make sure your reports are supported and safe. Not just being paternalistic-proctor of their output like some sort of Fordist evaluation. You are managing humans, not widgets.
That's why being a manager is hard.
You let your employee lose trust in you, which is the most dangerous thing to your team. Your flaw is that you have reversed the cause for effect here. People don’t give their best when they feel undervalued, and people rarely feel undervalued by accident.
You KNOW what the problem is, and yet you've done nothing to solve it. That's not what a manager does, thats just a glorified bookkeeper.
vogut@reddit
He's not meeting the standard because it's not worth it. He burned out trying to help you in the past and you ignored.
weIIokay38@reddit
Because he is not meeting your standards because you are not paying him too. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If the standards were raised, you need to pay for staff who meet those raised standards. Otherwise you deal with eventual burnout, higher turnover, and making it harder to hire good talent.
culturedgoat@reddit
That’s the wrong question.
You keep paying him because you hired him and he is in your employ.
A better question is why would you keep someone on your team who doesn’t meet your standards.
There are three possible answers (probably more, but we’ll keep it simple):
You believe he can improve, and are willing to coach him towards that (you still have to keep paying him).
You are in the midst of a bureaucratic process to manage him out (and guess what, you still have to keep paying him until this is concluded).
or
vincentdesmet@reddit
god most replies fail reading comprehension 101?
sounds like he is not focused, you can repeat that conversation, mention PIP (which may prompt him to resign anyway)
Sensitive-Ear-3896@reddit
Most ironic post ever, re read what op said
Windyvale@reddit
Literally moving the goalposts. How would you feel if you were put in his exact situation. Without the standard bullshit of “I wouldn’t put myself in that situation.”
Do it. Think about how you would expect someone to react.
If your boss came to you today and raised the expectations of your job on you after you put your all into it, then used that as justification to deny you a raise, what would you do?
washtubs@reddit
It's concerning that you don't respond by saying, "We greeted our new standard-bearers with higher salaries for the higher standard of work they're delivering."
binocular_gems@reddit
You’ve clearly made your decision in your mind, so why are you continuing to argue? I thought this was an interesting managerial challenge, but having read your responses to any challenge, you’ve already made up your mind and you’re looking for people on the internet to validate your decision so that you feel good about it emotionally. Cmon man, grow up. It’s your personality complex, it’s this employees livelihood.
EnigmaticDevice@reddit
it sounds like you raised that standard without raising compensation though? why would he want to work harder for no additional comp just because you've 'raised standards'? have you even talked to him about these performance issues?
E3K@reddit
Give him the raise.
eraserlimb@reddit
Why did the standard of work change and become raised?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
We hired really strong staff who were capable of delivering work at a higher level, and the product entered a commercialization phase where quality became more important than quantity.
sieabah@reddit
So you're going to burn the engineer who helped bring the company to where it is today for... what exactly?
It sounds like someone that actually cared about the success of the product and you told them, "Nah fam, let's be real and understand you're a replaceable fuck and I'm looking to undercut you with some shitty AI candidate at the first opportunity I get."
Whitchorence@reddit
I do think it's legitimate the idea that in different stages of a product you want different things from people, and not everyone will do well in the transition, but if you did some counseling to help him understand what had changed that you were no longer happy with what he was doing, that's not at all clear from what you have written.
Hog_enthusiast@reddit
lol what doesn’t quantity even mean when it comes to software? Your company sounds like a dumpster fire dude.
vogut@reddit
lol, the guy is burned out.
col0rcutclarity@reddit
No, you need to be 10x for the entire tenure of your career. If you have a perceived down year there will be a thread about it just like this one.
bentreflection@reddit
So this guy helped the company get to the point where it grew, saw success, and made enough to hire some higher tier developers and now rather than reward the developer for sticking with the company and helping it become successful you’re trying to come up with reasons why he isn’t good enough to deserve a raise?
lol distracted boyfriend meme
The-FrozenHearth@reddit
Have you provided feedback this year as his performance declined?
scarylarry2150@reddit
This was me. Got tossed into the deep end due to some unexpected personnel departures, went above-and-beyond way outside of my job description for about a year, everyone raved about how much I was crushing it, how valuable I was.
But when it finally came time to talk raises, suddenly the “highest HR will sign off on” was 4%. Ever since then I adhere strictly to what my job description states, no more and no less. The only thing I care about is collecting my paycheck while hitting the “meets expectations” checkbox on the annual review. If the company is only willing to treat me like I’m a line-item expense in someone’s budget spreadsheet, then why the fuck would I do anything other than the absolute bare minimum
Bjs1122@reddit
Yea I’ve been there as well. It sucks and is really demoralizing. If you’re not going to be rewarded when you’re going above and beyond generally one will stop doing that.
dinosaurkiller@reddit
“And the quality of his work surpasses what I could do on the side of my desk, which is ultimately how I evaluate whether someone is addresing technical debt or adding to it.” What does this mean?
Your criteria and evaluation process is incoherent at best and forcing out people you call reliable at worst. The most basic evaluation should be comparing him to the market, not to the other senior Dev. If you can hire better for the same money, go for it. If it will take extensive training and higher pay to replace him then give the guy his raise but give the other guy a bigger raise. That’s the evaluation process, not whatever’s on the side of your desk.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I don't have to replace him necessarily. I can cover his work with other staff and hire someone else to do work currently no one but I can do.
weIIokay38@reddit
Are you going to give them raises to do it?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
of course. they've done excellent work this year and deserve to be rewarded regardless of if they accept the additional responsibility or not.
weIIokay38@reddit
Is it going to be inflation raises like the raise you gave this dude when he did good work?
chaitanyathengdi@reddit
Then fire the guy. I think that's pretty clear.
weIIokay38@reddit
Because that’s your job. Employees bring up complaints about things that are blocking them, and it’s the job of managers to unblock them.
Are you paying him to?
What happens if you don’t?
This is a tooling issue, either he’s not receiving notifications or your merge process needs work. It’s your job to find the correct structural problem and make noise about it with the appropriate people up the management chain. Devs at most organizations are bugged about PRs until they merge them, or there’s tooling to “automerge” them once approvals are in place.
So you’re underpaying everyone else on your team???
????????
sieabah@reddit
For "Senior," I would agree. Staff+ should generally be capable of unblocking themselves up to a point. Once you have to talk to someone higher in the hierarchy it can become difficult to know whether it's "okay" to talk to a director outside of your chain or directly involve that other director/manager to unblock. It'll be different per company, and sometimes you explicitly don't want that director to know you by name.
weIIokay38@reddit
Yep definitely agree.
coyote_of_the_month@reddit
Sounds like you need him, but you and your company have already fucked him once. Why on earth would you expect to get more from him?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
if I needed him I would have to give him the raise.
SkynetsPussy@reddit
You previously stated there is stuff only he can do.
But all the other devs are better than him.
Which is it?
FlashBrightStar@reddit
It's gaslighting. He's irreplaceable but doesn't want to give a raise. He's even undermining the employee's value (contradicting with himself in the comments section) to justify his decision. This is a sign of a very toxic manager if you ask me.
Red-Catalyst@reddit
Neither tbh. He probably has a personal issue with the guy.
Beginning_Basis9799@reddit
I am going to read between the lines here.
Is he an SME or Silo in something undesirable (like legacy). Be 110% sure he is completely mitigated from Silo and SME as in you have cover for everything this engineer does.
I once heard of a tail where a snr engineer had been placed into high stress operation work which not everyone was aware on the team, it was something weird like tallying up a client's dB and comparing an analysis.
They pipped him, he left gave a notice period got a new job carried on doing his job as normal in the last 3 months (he must have known malicious compliance was the most damaging thing he could do).
1 month goes by after he had trained someone no problems. Remember he had only trained people in the happy path why bother training on a sad path. Month 2 mistake made undocumented manual process 200k.loss Month 3 200k loss Month 4 200k loss
2 team members quit instantly after having to take over legacy work.
Remainder of the eam fired product was given up on.
The above is a tail of caution be dam sure before you make a move.
snow_schwartz@reddit
You don’t even know what you’re asking. “Should I give him a 20% raise, a 2% raise, or fire him?” What?
peripateticman2026@reddit
The more I read your post, OP, the more I'm wondering about your behaviour than that of the supposedly low-performing senior dev. Might be good to self-reflect on your management skills, to be honest.
Kind-Armadillo-2340@reddit
If you don’t give him a raise don’t think he might just leave?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I think if I don't give him the raise he will create more work for me and continue sand bagging.
demosthenesss@reddit
You should document the sand bagging and let his manager know, so his manager can performance management him.
itzmanu1989@reddit
he is the manager
gnrdmjfan247@reddit
I think that’s the joke
schmidtssss@reddit
Sand bagging? Lmao - if he’s there he does it and if he’s not who else does it?
Neat-Molasses-9172@reddit
A cost of living raise literally says "we're giving you the bare minimum we think we have to in order to keep you"... but it really sounds more like "🖕🖕🖕" to the employee.
reminds me of the Chris Rock joke about minimum wage basically being a manager's way of saying "we would pay you less but it's illegal..."
giving a shitty ass 2% is basically the same thing and almost worse.
dagamer34@reddit
Yeah, this is poor management because you are sending mixed signals. If you don't think he's a great performer, at his specified level, and you haven't told him such, regardless of him asking for a raise or not, you've made a mistake.
And if you've made him believe that he has a chance at getting a 20% raise and he has none, you have made another mistake.
This is the very definition from management's point of "trying to have your cake and eat it too" and both parties have decided just to make no action at all.
If you don't want the employee, let them go. However, you have kept them around because for all the supposed headache being caused, they are still providing benefit to the company.
You all deserve each other.
breesyroux@reddit
In a lot of ways this post could be describing me as a senior dev. I was very underpaid but was hesitant to look for a new job for life reasons. I had been performing great, but eventually just determined that if I'm paid way under market I'm gonna spend less time on work and just generally not care as much.
RedditNotFreeSpeech@reddit
Yeah man, I started watching one episode of whatever show I'm watching every day after being shit on constantly while holding the ship together. I needed that small escape to get through the day of sitting in meetings listening to idiots talk in circles.
Whatever, you don't want to hear what I have to say and you especially don't want to listen. Fine. I'll do the best I can on what I'm asked to do but I give zero fucks about the rest.
chaitanyathengdi@reddit
quiet quitting, essentially
Hog_enthusiast@reddit
I’m a Mid/Senior depending on how you define it IC. No real management experience. I have a genuine question for the people in this thread, who obviously have a very strong opinion on this situation. If I were OP I think I’d tell the senior dev they were underperforming, and I wouldn’t give them a raise. If they left I’d hire someone else. If they didn’t and they improved I’d try to give them a raise. If they didn’t and they stayed I’d either fire them or refuse to give them a raise based on their current pay.
Is that the way to handle this? Genuinely asking because I want to learn.
chaitanyathengdi@reddit
It's been said already that this didn't work.
breesyroux@reddit
The manager and the dev need better communication. If this dev was once a good performer and that's slipping, management should be talking to them about why before it got to this point.
There needs to be a hard conversation about what expectations are for both manager and the dev. If the dev is anywhere close to accurate that he could leave for large pay increase my guess is he's just decided to give output equivalent to what he's being compensated for. If management thinks they can get better production for their price, call his bluff.
chaitanyathengdi@reddit
Employees inherently know how much value they provide. If this guy is their most expensive employee and he's asking 20% then it's possible they are underpaying everybody. Add that idiotic "one out, no in" policy to the mix and I am thinking they are overworking them too.
Doesn't paint a good picture.
MarriedAdventurer123@reddit
Oof this goes hard.
I mean op is getting no doubt his best learning from this thread on reddit....
It speaks volumes about managers as well as potentially sandbagging ICs.
I've been a sandbagging IC before, because I didn't feel trusted valued respected or felt like I was part of a team.
Maybe OP is the egg that spawned that chicken?
GarboMcStevens@reddit
There is zero point busting your ass for no benefit.
Juniors will because they count their lucky stars they have a job. Seniors know how the game is played. Being 100 percent better for 3 percent more money isn’t worth it.
Princess_Azula_@reddit
Work/life balance has more value when an employee has no stake in the company they work for.
flukeytukey@reddit
Jfc I'm glad I've never taken a managerial role.
One thing I can say, at least about myself agter 15 years being an IC - you pay me more, I work harder. In fact, it's not even a great thing for me. I work longer hours, and am more stressed. But with a company betting so much money on me, there's no way I would let my reputation be ruined by underperforming.
Sometimes I think of my old jobs that paid half as much that I could literally coast through with high praise.
I think a devs salary truly self imposes expectations.
Abadabadon@reddit
So he was doing good, asked for a raise, and you wanted to soft fire him by "inflation fire" him, and now youre upset that he might be sandbagging? Lol maybe he just read through your bullshit.
_hephaestus@reddit
The way you deal with this is by setting expectations with a career ladder. That’s essentially it. Sometimes you’ll have to compromise in situations where there’ll be no replacement, but in your 1:1s you should always have some discussion about what you’d need to see to get to the next level/how they’re progressing on that front.
As a manager if you’re having to babysit him, and this is a recurring experience, it is your job to have a pip or some progress plan for what work would be raise-worthy. It’s not a fun part of being a manager, but this is in your job description when you lead.
amesgaiztoak@reddit
Why haven't you PIPed him yet
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
My boss only recently left. He had a policy to never hire replacements. So losing him meant I was losing someone who does do some work with no chance of replacement. That's no longer an issue.
culturedgoat@reddit
So why haven’t you PIPed him yet?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I am not sure there's much point doing a PIP if expectations and needs are as misaligned as they are now.
sieabah@reddit
The PIP is partly so that you can fire them without a lawsuit. Otherwise they'll happily take the pay and do little to no work.
You created the problem and now you have to manage the problem. I'm sorry you now have to "work" harder on this, but this is entirely a problem of your own making. The easiest way is to inflate the title, give the raise, PIP, and fire them. You'll be able to get them out within 2-3 months and if you've given them a few months already after saying "go for it," you'll see them perform or wait out your clock.
culturedgoat@reddit
Why?
fireheart337@reddit
Sounds like OP has been vague and doesn’t know how / want to be explicit in order to make this employee successful. Because if his employee knew how much “on the rocks” he was, he never would have brought up a 20% raise.
I wonder how much unseen work the employee does considering how much “messy work” was needed in order to get the team/company to this so called higher standard.
greebly_weeblies@reddit
More to the point, at this stage does not want this employee to be successful.
AccountExciting961@reddit
Sorry, but this sounds like terrible management all around. The non-myopic answer for "he could go anywhere and get a 50% raise" would be "go for it" - but instead, you gaslighted the employee about their career prospects for your own convenience.
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I did say "go for it"
sieabah@reddit
Then you already lit the fire for someone to be looking elsewhere and jumping on the first opportunity that is convenient. Right now you're subsidizing their search and you have already lost this employee.
No amount of money or talking will change that you burned the bridge of an early engineer that assisted to get the company to where it is today. That's on you, buddy.
AccountExciting961@reddit
Ok, maybe i misread what you are saying - in which case, sorry about that. That said, my point about them seemingly being burned out and you having failed managing their expectations still stands. Specifically - you not telling them the inconvenient truth back when they asked for a raise the previous time was a mistake, and i think your best course of action is to stop making this mistake - by telling them clearly where they stand, this time. Bonus points for asking them what you can do to make it right with them for not having told them earlier.
TheAlmightyDope@reddit
So let me get this straight:
You have an engineer that got the work done when needed, and isn't amazing at their job
You've also managed to pay this person more than the rest of the team who are apparently so good they raised the bar (which is artificial and bullshit btw)
you denied them a raise, based on the artificial level of quality you were suddenly made aware of due to the new talent, causing them to sink into doing the bare minimum
You've given them feedback but they reverted back to their bare minimum and is coasting while you're umming and ahhing about the next step because you're worried firing them will make you look bad.
and now you're fishing for answers that doesn't involve doing your job, having a backbone, or dealing with the consequences of having neither of those qualities you'd expect from someone in management.
This is pathetic.
eraserlimb@reddit
OP is probably a shitty engineering manager. Also tech is filled with mostly shitty managers. It doesn’t have to be that way but it be that way.
OP why don’t you do your job and communicate with him. Figure out what’s going on and if he’s really “underperforming”. The managerial part comes in because you should know how to work best with your direct report.
Don’t directly ask him why he’s not putting in the same effort as before like an autistic goon. You’re the manager. Figure out how to best communicate with him and figure out what makes him motivated.
HeartfeltFart@reddit
I think you sound like a difficult manager
evangelism2@reddit
>The other senior dev has historically been someone I could depend on to get things done.
>Last year he asked for a 20% raise. We gave him 2.9%
>The past year or so his performance has been below senior.
lol. Was good, then you didnt give him the raise he wanted, nor the raise he deserved, you gave him a bullshit cost of living raise, so he downshifted in gear and now you want to fire him. Sounds like a 'great' company.
Visible_Fill_6699@reddit
OP should make sure to get a different perspective from the managers sub haha. Folks here are naturally more sympathetic to the IC.
Keep in mind that negativity is more infectious than positivity, and it's not fair to the others to have him slack off for more pay even if he felt justified in sandbagging.
Maybe I'm naive but personally I think it's unprofessional to ever sandbag on one's effort during business hours -- the leverage of the IC lie in the ability to move elsewhere; if one doesn't want to go above and beyond just make sure to stick to strict business hours, which has the added bonus of never having to feel unappreciated for the overtime.
MaximusDM22@reddit
It is obvious he checked out. He was performing well wanted a raise and didnt get it. He saw that his efforts werent being rewarded so why would he continue?
Either quit playing games and fire him or explain the situation properly and make it clear that you will support him if he can up his game for a while.
Like someone else said management might not be your thing.
Groove-Theory@reddit
Honest question. What in God's name made you think you were ready to be a capable manager?
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
nothing really.
Jaeriko@reddit
Well you seem right about that, at least.
eraserlimb@reddit
He’s going to leave for a better company and opportunity
Primary_Ads@reddit (OP)
I can only hope.
BluPhi82@reddit
If you truly hope so, why don’t you get rid of him? Sounds like you are looking for permission to fire him.
culturedgoat@reddit
No, you can also do your job.
Harlemdartagnan@reddit
are you both technical and people manager??
KnowledgeableOnThis@reddit
God damn, all of OP’s replies piss me off. Your options are to pay him more, or to let him go, either option is acceptable. But instead, you decided to post a thread to ask how you can get more work out of this guy without paying him more, aka, “what I can do to exploit him”.
Everyone else here is calling you a shitty manager, but I disagree. I think you’re likely a successful manager, and a really shitty human
throwaway8u3sH0@reddit
Passive aggressive management?
PIP him if expectations don't match performance.
Or give him the raise if it's "good enough" and the pain of replacement is not worth dealing with.
But Jesus, do anything other than passively aggressively avoid the situation by not giving a raise and hoping he quits. What a shit option.
You're paid to have hard conversations. Have them.
usbyeolbit@reddit
bruh i hope the eng sees this cuz you suck
Ikarus3426@reddit
A lot of discussion about this employee here.
Is it unreasonable to ask why you're asking what to do about a man's career and financial future on Reddit? Like, are you so incapable of making a managerial decision that you have to turn to Reddit to figure out what to do?
We don't have the context of the environment and both sides of the story. We can't give you a good assessment on whether or not you should keep this person around. You've already decided he won't get a raise, so arguing here is pointless.
Be a manager and decide what you want to do. If you do decide to terminate, at least treat him right and give him a good severance deal or something, because it sounds like he did help you out when you needed it.
-fallenCup-@reddit
If you all disagree on his value, he will go somewhere else. It’s time to ensure his exit does not damage the team and let him go.
seexo@reddit
Are you able to disclose the actual salaries?
Mononon@reddit
If you've level set with this person and been honest about their performance, can't you just point to those interactions? Surely you've got some sort of documentation showing this pattern of underperformance? Like, was that part of a mid year review or documented in any way? If you've told them what you expect, I feel like it's on you to communicate how they haven't met that expectation.
Some employees are unreasonable sometimes. It happens. But the way you've laid it out here, it doesn't really sound like you effectively communicated this person's performance to them. If you're not giving them a raise and you're unhappy with their performance, nut up and tell them that and deal with the consequences.
I don't fully understand the issue. You're the manager. If you're so unhappy with them and by your own admission you wouldn't be losing anything if they were gone, then I don't understand why you wouldn't do the extremely obvious thing and just tell them no. Unless you've handled it poorly, I don't follow why there's an issue...
itzdivz@reddit
I was declined for a promotion during pandemic even after exceeding pretty much all metrics, so i took a second job. Then literally my whole team including the guy who declined my promotion was laid off since i keep missing my deadlines and they cant pick it up. I still had another job to fall back on.
Foreign_Addition2844@reddit
Thats where you messed up.
watscracking@reddit
Maybe you should leave him alone
bentreflection@reddit
Seems pretty obvious whats going on. Guy was a solid but not stellar performer. He asked for a raise but got denied. Now he’s doing the bare minimum because you made it clear more effort isn’t going to result in a raise.
Honestly makes a lot of sense. If you’re not going to give him a raise why would he do anything more than the minimum required to not get fired? He’d be better off just coasting and doing consulting on the side to make that 20% or more.
Original-Channel7869@reddit
Looks like the guy is not feeling appreciated, and coasting. I've been in his shoes and it's best to find a new job ASAP. From manager's standpoint, either tell him to quickly get his shit together, or put him on PIP and manage out.
hello2u3@reddit
Yeah I wouldn’t want to work in your vertical but you can simply tell him he’s at the top of his band
icesurfer10@reddit
I feel you, this is something I've dealt with too and it's not an easy situation.
I'm my experience the best thing you can do is to ensure you're on the same page regarding his performance, or at least ensure he understands your thoughts.
Is he aware of your thoughts? I like to operate on a basis with my team that they'll never really have to ask for a pay rise, because if they're at that level they'll get one, otherwise they'll be aware of why they won't and we can work together to get there.
I'm situations like this you really have to make up your mind of where this person is and make a decision. If he's worth it pay him more if he's not, don't.
exvertus@reddit
So he was doing well, then you gave him a bare-minimum raise, and since then he doesn't seem to care as much? Sounds to me like he's "working his wage". At no point do acknowledge that your company's decision may have created this whole situation. I think you need to take a step back and introspect, because this sounds you reaped precisely what you sowed.
photosandphotons@reddit
The solution sounds quite straightforward to me and I’m not a manager.