I survived my PIP last week, next steps?

[-]

tetryds@reddit

PIP is meant for you to leave without them having to fire you

[-]

sfscsdsf@reddit

why leaving voluntarily while being able get severance

[-]

tetryds@reddit

It's much easier to find a job being employed and also less stressful and much less insecure

[-]

sfscsdsf@reddit

i’d choose to interview and get employed, and wait for the old job to layoff to get the severance simultaneously even

[-]

On the other hand, I survived a PIP at my last company. Granted the complaints were valid. I wasn't doing great. I turned that ship around and actually became a solid dev there. The first few months I was looking for new work, but I was also improving my current work. In my last couple of years of work there, I was well praised and scored well in reviews.

Upon submitting my resignation, they even tried to match the offer from the other company which I doubt they would have done if they wanted me gone.

[-]

jonmitz@reddit

Without them having to lay you off*

Important distinction

[-]

nemec@reddit

No, a pip is documentation for a performance based firing. They don't need a pip to lay you off (though you may also be first in line for a layoff regardless)

[-]

Yulfy@reddit

There’s such negativity surrounding PIP, so I’d like to offer an alternative perspective as an engineering manager. I have put multiple people on PIP who weren’t meeting the expectations communicated. Only one person didn’t survive, and they massively underperformed.

PIP is something that I do not communicate up the chain, I’m the only person who knows the other is on PIP, aside from documenting the process in case things really don’t play out.

All of this to say, in all scenarios bar one, it was a way for us to work together and figure out how to make sure we’re moving in the same direction. It was often about people not approaching things in a productive way, and not about laziness or inability. It’s also been a way for me to learn about how to change things and understand how people work.

It’s not a death sentence, not in my experience, I would look at the management structure and see if the PIP came because they want to cut people. I personally don’t, but I also can’t have people not pulling their weight comparatively, it’s ultimately not fair on others.

[-]

EmmitSan@reddit

If you’ve put that many on a PIP and all but one survived, you are PIPing way too aggressively and doing your directs a disservice.

[-]

Yulfy@reddit

You think so? I didn’t give a timeframe this occurred over. I’d rather identify potential issues early and just deal with them to make sure we are all on the same page. I’m not exactly putting people on PIP every second week and just happen to have a recent example.

[-]

Leading_Analysis7656@reddit

I generally consider pips as a last resort. You say “identify potential issues” which seems concerning. To me a pip is when an issue has been solidly identified and multiple attempts to work with the person to correct it has failed.

[-]

Yulfy@reddit

I didn’t say I use PIPs that way, I was saying that I don’t. I’d rather try anything but PIP, lots of feedback and guidance. That was what I was saying. Nothing there says that I am using them to identify issues, does it? I don’t know why I’m being misconstrued so much. I might have poorer phrasing than I had thought.

[-]

EmmitSan@reddit

If you are identifying issues early and jumping straight to PIP, that some draconian stuff

[-]

Yulfy@reddit

Did I say that? I feel like you’re extrapolating a lot. The last thing I want to do is put someone on PIP, it’s stressful and a last resort. I try not to be unreasonable across the board.

[-]

EmmitSan@reddit

If PIPs are a last resort, your recovery remote should not be that high. If people are doing so well in them, you are clearly doing a bunch of unnecessary ones. You’re using them as a third/fourth resort, not a last one. And I suspect the reports aren’t happy about going through something like this.

[-]

Yulfy@reddit

I’ll think about that, but I don’t think I’m unreasonable. I’d encourage you not assume that I’m being negligent, I wish I wasn’t in management most of the time, but I’d also rather be the person who tries to do it with the person in mind. You seem to be unwilling to consider that I might have been in this industry for a long time, or that there could possibly be other factors at play.

Regardless, I don’t want to close myself to the idea that what I have done is wrong, or at least misguided, so you’ve given me something to think on.

[-]

Infinite_Maximum_820@reddit

Agreed. Similar experience. Many people never know some of strong performers were once in pip

[-]

lirikthecat@reddit (OP)

Thanks for sharing a different perspective as an EM. Even if you don't want to cut your team member, would you say that it exposes them to more risks of being laid off & blocks them for Promos because they survived the PIP?

[-]

Yulfy@reddit

In my case, no. We had an engineer come off PIP very recently who helped out on a last minute rush for a client and we gave him a bonus for it, rewarded and appreciated just like any other engineer would have been. I see it as someone who persevered and understands the expectations. I try not to make them unreasonable, and a big part of it is that I don’t communicate outside the two of us about it.

My main point is it’s not as black and white as people like to make it out to be. Some companies it is absolutely a death sentence, but not mine. I like the people I work with, and my goal when they’re on PIP is to find ways to get them to where they need to be so I can keep working with them for a long time to come.

What kind of company is yours? Do you feel like your manager had your teams back? Or are they just interested in the numbers? What was your PIP like? Were you encouraged to succeed?

[-]

No-Economics-8239@reddit

My congratulations and condolences. Unfortunately, the ordeal probably isn't over yet. An important piece of trust has been lost and is unlikely to return.

For many, the kick to morale that being put on PIP provides the subtle push to force them to leave or else crumble into a mess of anxiety and depression. That you were able to hold it together and persevere through the ordeal likely means you are able to separate your self-worth from your job. Or, maybe, they are so entangled that they pushed you to heroic feats. Either way, now what?

PIP is a message from management saying you aren't the right person for the job. We have no measure of personhood, so they measure job deliverables. If you meet those deliverables, did you become a new person? Which is really asking, did something fundamentally change in the perspective of management towards you? If they still see you and the job the same, the old problem still remains. They still don't think you're the right person for the job.

It helps to keep separate your sense of self from your job. But that doesn't put food on the table. So if you haven't already started looking for a new job, perhaps get started on that. Even if everything is now 'fine' a change on your terms is still preferable to one on their terms.

[-]

DeterminedQuokka@reddit

So I have seen people survive a pip. And go on to stay at the company for a long time. But you are also right that in a layoff if everything else is equal having a pip on your background is a tie breaker. So that depends if you expect layoffs.

Here is the actual problems with pips. Company’s have a long memory once they have said someone once about you on paper that thing is always sort of there for the rest of time. Which means raises and promotions will always be harder.

This counts to pips and just normal bad feedback that thing will be in most reviews because it’s impossible to prove that you don’t do it anymore.

The other thing that can happen is you might have been not supposed to beat the pip (some are beatable, and people want you to succeed). If you beat a pip you weren’t supposed to beat there is a chance that they will basically decide you weren’t doing the work even though you could have. And going back to prepip you will just result in another pip or getting fired.

Basically, I wouldn’t assume people are after you. But I would start looking for a new job with less baggage

[-]

ExperiencedDevs-ModTeam@reddit

Rule 3: No General Career Advice

This sub is for discussing issues specific to experienced developers.

Any career advice thread must contain questions and/or discussions that notably benefit from the participation of experienced developers. Career advice threads may be removed at the moderators discretion based on response to the thread."

General rule of thumb: If the advice you are giving (or seeking) could apply to a “Senior Chemical Engineer”, it’s not appropriate for this sub.

[-]

Empty_Geologist9645@reddit

If at any point your manager wants you go he can get it done twice as faster now. You’ve got record of bad performance.

[-]

Strutching_Claws@reddit

You haven't survived it, youve delayed it , spend your time looking for new roles.

[-]

Antilock049@reddit

Mmm I've never seen anyone survive a pip only delay them.

Would probably start looking for a transition of some kind. There's going to be head count reduction at some point.

Pip and pip-adjacent are always the first to go.

[-]

nemec@reddit

anecdatally, I have a coworker who survived one and is thriving. I agree with other commenters that it's probably worth switching teams after one, though.

[-]

Bobby-McBobster@reddit

Now you switch jobs, or at least teams.

[-]

lirikthecat@reddit (OP)

Oh this is interesting, why teams? I imagine in a head count reduction your PIP will not look good on you

[-]

Bobby-McBobster@reddit

Because you're next in line for the next PIP. Even if you passed it, your manager ultimately wants you out.

[-]

forgottenHedgehog@reddit

PIP is not something that any new manager will overlook, you don't really want to get an internal transfer of someone with performance problems.

[-]

30thnight@reddit

Professional growth (promos, internal team transfers, etc) requires a great relationship with your manager.

They are the person who has to defend or you when as they are the person who has to defend you when it comes to those things.

A PIP is the exact opposite of this. They started the process to have you formally removed.

You may have survived but unless you have an incredibly mature manager, the relationship is still strained meaning low or no growth.

[-]

headinthesky@reddit

It's hard to switch teams when you have a pip on your record

[-]

bluetrust@reddit

Because it's a fresh start. You'll always be viewed with suspicion in your current role and be a candidate for being on the chopping block during a lay off. But if you move and do well, then the story becomes, "their previous team was just a poor fit."

Also, I'm assuming here that your manager sucks at management. They should have had an early uncomfortable informal conversation with you where they made it clear what expectations were being missed and said it bluntly and clearly enough that you retained that information. That they didn't do this (again, I assume) and jumped right to a PIP, that's an indication they suck. They're not going to get better at managing you.

[-]

SoapMac_141@reddit

First, update your resume and start a quiet search, even if you decide to stay short term. Treat the next few months like a paid runway, document impact, keep receipts, and avoid risky projects without air cover. Line up references outside your direct chain. If you want a low lift way to see what’s out there, wfhalert sends vetted remote jobs by email, stuff like support or admin type roles show up alongside more general tech listings. Also, assume you’re still on a list, so manage up, set written expectations, and keep everything in writing.

[-]

badboyzpwns@reddit

Thanks! what does air cover meany? its funny because my co workers started talking about they dont feel comfrotable risky projects

[-]

CarelessPackage1982@reddit

Don't be naive. You are done at that company.

[-]

lirikthecat@reddit (OP)

Thank you

[-]

pemungkah@reddit

Yeah, I managed to survive a PIP at a place I’d been at for eight years, but I burnt out doing it, had the flu turn into pneumonia, and could have died. (And got fired anyway after two weeks back.)

I would have been better off doing the minimum, not passing, and finding another place during the PIP.

[-]

rover_G@reddit

Congratulations you turned the tables on management and turned their attempt to make your life a nightmare into their nightmare. HR does not appreciate management wasting their time with pointless PIPs.

You have successfully extended your runway, however your future in your current situation is limited so start planning your next move. Depending in the company you may have the option to move teams but more likely you should be focused on external opportunities.

Remember: future employers will never know you were ever on a PIP. You can even talk about the steps you took to meet new management’s expectations and spin it as taking the initiative yourself.

[-]

babababadukeduke@reddit

What did you change about your work? This is a very important detail missing in your post

[-]

originalchronoguy@reddit

Yeah, this is important. I've seen guys with 10-15 YOE move teams and in 6 months, they deserve to be PiP. Prior team, prior work did not have the right leadership or work cadence. E.G. no transparent oversight. Then they move to a new team where the rest of the staff is working at a different, high rate velocity which exposes those newly joining employees' lack of skills.

[-]

babababadukeduke@reddit

Yeah I had this one coworker who was pretty good but will waste a lot of time on goose chases. I am talking days. Leadership tried to give him this feedback but he didn’t register it until they put him on pip. He turned around pretty fast after.

[-]

originalchronoguy@reddit

Yeah, I have one of those. He likes to slow-walk things. Instead of greasing the wheels, he is clogging the lane. He will always go deep into things like labels and copywriting of error messages to push things back. Meanwhile, another developer working on parallel (similar tasks) streams of same complexity delivering at 5 to 10x the output. There is a literal 10x difference when leadership sees in-progress demos.

[-]

lirikthecat@reddit (OP)

I think Im like your co-worker in a way. I became more communicative in how I'm going to handle the work with my team members so I waste less time on possible goose chases / unoptimized solutions.

[-]

tgage4321@reddit

It doesnt really work like that. My experience, PIP means basically you are being notified you will be fired soon, its already in the works. Depends on the company, but could be in a week or in a month, probably not much more than that. You are most likely viewed as a low performer by managers, whether that is fair or not.

Most situations, it is easier to find a new role or completely switch teams than reverse that reputation. I would aggressively be looking for a new role if you dont want to be unemployed.

[-]

crappy_entrepreneur@reddit

Mate, now that you've survived a pip, you can just start phoning it in. Your boss is not going to pip you twice; it'll make him look like a complete idiot.

[-]

EmmitSan@reddit

You are correct, if OP does this there will not be another PIP, they’ll just move to immediate termination by saying “you’ve regressed to prePIP levels of performance, so we do not believe a PIP is likely to succeed”

Absolutely awful advice.

[-]

IsItSetToWumbo@reddit

lmao

[-]

t-tekin@reddit

I’m director tier, maybe the perspective from the other side can help with your decision making; * Reversing the PIP is a really good signal. It’s way easier to let go of folks from the PIPs for multiple reasons. The market is pretty bad, the positions get a lot of talented folks apply. And PIP is a lot of work on managers and HR. So a lot of times the threshold to survive a PIP is really high. I bet they didn’t make that decision lightly. And you must have given a lot of confidence during that time. * Your manager must be believing in you. But the number 1 question their manager ask will be “are they going to fall back to their old habits and back to underperforming?”.

I would continue to reflect; * You said “I reflected and did change how I work”. What did you change? Are you simply working longer hours? Or changed your communication style etc…? I want you to maybe think how sustainable is this new style working for you. (Even communication style changes can be a huge drain on introverts etc…) * Was there an environmental change recently in your team? Like the shift in team members, a leader missing? Which might have caused the expectations from you to change? if this is the case I would maybe also consider a team/company shift. At least bring up the concern. * One thing to use to your advantage. You can probably go to your manager or to your skip, or even sister teams and talk about your PIP. Show vulnerability, explain the changes you applied to how you work and get their perspectives. I can guarantee you this group of folks are already intimately aware of your situation. They had been talking about it. So don’t worry about sharing too much info. ** At the end what you are getting out of this is: you understand their perception of the situation. And also can truly understand how bad a target you have on your back. If there is a deep trust problem etc… by knowing more you can make better decisions and not jump to conclusions. * job search is a good idea. But grass is greener on the other side. A lot of companies are going through a similar expectation changes. It’s tough out there. Do search for jobs but also use your learnings from this event to find a suitable environment for you. Be picky. Ask lots of questions. * In general surviving a PIP is an impressive feat, and you should have some credibility within the company. O bet the leadership’s stance on general will be “Cautiously optimistic”. I would say things might be in a better situation than you are expecting.

[-]

scapescene@reddit

Maintaining the same work quality for years is a major red flag

[-]

truthputer@reddit

I survived a PIP and then got immediately laid off with half the team.

There was nothing wrong with my performance.

[-]

lirikthecat@reddit (OP)

Sorry to hear that, hopefully your able to land something afterwads

[-]

Potato-Engineer@reddit

When it's half your team, I'm not sure that there's much you could have done. PIP or no PIP, you'd have to be and unusually good value-for-money (or politically connected) to survive a 50% layoff.

[-]

Hungry_Age5375@reddit

Remember when job security meant staying put? Now it's about marketability. Those UAE AI hubs are looking for talent.

[-]

binocular_gems@reddit

A manager of mine survived a pip because the company felt bad for him, he was going through a personal crisis with his marriage and other bad decisions. He worked there for a year but they made his life miserable with impossible goals he’d never achieve. He was doing poorly as a regular manager, and the pip was just inpossibpe shd designed to make him miserably to get out. Eventuslly he failed upwards to another company and got a raise. Mission accomplished for the PIP.

[-]

"I reflected and did change on how I work now. I overcame the PIP. I still feel like I have a target on my back for the next layoffs. After you survive a PIP, what should your next step be?"

Look for a new job, because nobody truly survives a PIP intact. You indeed do have a target on your back from your manager and/or low-hanging fruit for company-wide-decisions of next layoffs.