Dealing with resentful low performers?

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anicetito@reddit

He's overemployed. And not saying it as a bad thing by itself. The bad part is that he isn't taking care of this job in the expected way

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anicetito@reddit

Fuck you all the ones that downvoted me. I'm not condemning the person for being over employed, but if he doesn't keep with the expectations of both J's, he doesn't deserve to have 2Js

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Foreign_Addition2844@reddit

I'm a tech lead

I collected feedback from all my direct reports

Tech lead or manager?

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Both sadly. I know. I feel sorry for myself.

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Not sure what you mean but usually meetings are disruptive so if we allocate time to talk, it's because we need to review ideas and pass information to other people, the "work" here consists in listening.

Sometimes I code / type during the meeting but not to the point of making others repeat themselves consistently.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

It's just a bad look. We are discussing strategy, sometimes critical priorities, and yes, sometimes I lose my temper and get really frustrated when he's looking away and typing things...

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TheNewOP@reddit

What does you "losing your temper" look like? I use this to describe myself but I'm hyperbolic -- in reality I'd only be firmly reminding people to pay attention during meetings. I feel like many people on this subreddit read this as you flying off the handle and yelling.

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Which-World-6533@reddit

I lose my temper

If this happening that you need to be looking at anger management classes.

There's absolutely no reason for this to happen in a professional environment.

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agumonkey@reddit

how do you deal with slackers then ? delay until one on one ?

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Bleach984@reddit

Yes?? Obviously.

There's any number of possible reasons for what he's doing. Many he'd not be comfortable talking about in public. Just pull him aside and talk like real humans, not cogs in a corporate machine

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Could just be saviour complex as an example. He is the lego piece holding the entire team together like Atlas holding up the mountains and he is not even getting a shred of recognition for it from this asshole team lead.

Hey maybe it even is truth, maybe he is maintaining ton of tools and helping ton of people out on Slack and it's all just shadow IT, but even if it's false if he believes that the solution is: to lead him out of that and establish some rapport between him and TL.

Or he could just be severely depressed due to an issue in his personal life and feels cornered. There are many reasons why people are acting like assholes and my personal opinion is that it's the job of the TL to try and cut through that.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

This is the funny thing. He's no longer maintaining any tools anymore because we automated everything lol

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NUTTA_BUSTAH@reddit

No... You are still maintaining the tools, but now you are also maintaining the automations/integrations of those tools, likely on a platform that has its own release cycle so you are also maintaining the platform.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Real. The funny thing is, that my team is currently under pressure to "finish" all the development and get into "maintenance" mode as fast as possible. I pushed back and asked them to define what "maintenance mode is". They are getting frustrated lol no security patches? No tech debt?

I said if you are a team lead, not if you are a manager. If you are an engineering manager and your focus is on the performance of your reports, then you should worry about whether your reports are performing.

But if your job is to ship, focus on shipping, with whatever people and tools you have.

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ForgetTheRuralJuror@reddit

You'd fire people before even attempting to communicate with them?

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Cahnis@reddit

I am judging the OP case specifically. He has a historically "hard to work with" report, that is openly hostile.

My personal take:

Me as a person: A person like that is a liability not only to the team but to OP in particular, he has already formally given OP bad formal feedback on paper. That person should be treated as an enemy that will try to get OP undermined, fired, sabotaged. It is in OP's best interest as an employee to get rid of them.

Me as a lead/employee: historically hard to work with, feedback that doesn´t align with the rest of the team. I would guess OP has probably tried talking with him with no luck given the "hard to work with" label. Sure, talk to them, or better yet, put them in a PIP.

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nextnode@reddit

I have the opposite experience - most issues can be solved by well-meaning and direct conversations.

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MathmoKiwi@reddit

Communicate

excommunicating him seems like a better option

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dweezil22@reddit

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itb206@reddit

The wisdom is sit down and have a conversation about the problem. Hear their side. You don't have to like or agree with their side and as the lead its your discretion of whether the problem can be solved besides that. If it can't you bring it to the people manager or if you have management power (pip, firing) you move to that.

From my perspective you've never talked to this person, thats a crucial part you're not doing in your job. Most people don't just act problematic for no reason.

Framing your teammate as an impediment is a failing on your end.

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Skullclownlol@reddit

If he was good, he would have been promoted years ago lol Sr dev who struggles more than a JR dev.

Tons of people out there who choose to stay IC/Sr. because it fits their skills/needs better. Remember: For every Lead role, you need a team of people below them to lead, so you always need more of the lower roles than the upper ones.

TraumaER@reddit

I've got nothing that the other comments haven't already pointed out, but it sounds like instead of honest reviews you were looking to have your ego stroked. Who the review is requested from doesn't matter. He was just the one that was honest and it hurt your feelings.

As an example, a mature response to the "courtroom sessions" comment would be to ask them how you can make them better. Not, I read a book and it said this is how it's done so clearly he's an idiot.

You are working with people not chess pieces or cogs in a machine. Unfortunately that means you have to communicate with them and sometimes compromise.

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The feedback actually made me thing about a few things. I started looking into scrum and agile certifications, and looking up books on conflict mitigation and leadership strategies.

What's funny is that I always "preach" about agile best practices and patterns, and always trying to find tiny things to improve in each sprint.

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MadCervantes@reddit

True agility needs no preaching. Does a fig tree bear thorns?

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jl2352@reddit

What’s funny …

This sounds like you are pushing back on the advice given.

It might be you’re great on the agile stuff. Either way try to take the advice on board.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

I really am. That employee's feedback and the comments here really got me thinking all day yesterday.

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StinkyPooPooPoopy@reddit

Robert Greene - Laws of human nature.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Thank you!!!

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WesolyKubeczek@reddit

What's funny is that I always "preach" about agile best practices and patterns, and always trying to find tiny things to improve in each sprint.

You preach and nitpick too much.

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Personally, I actually think that the team need to 'discover' your goal organically and own it get the best outcome. In the QA scenario you mentioned, it could come from having regular retros and discussing quality/bugs/P1s etc and gathering feedback and ideas with actions. The team that can own the actions do so and gradually change their process. But, of course it's possible that they won't decide what you want them to, sometimes everyone needs to make their own mistakes to discover what you felt was blindingly obvious at the start. Part of the challenge is how I think of it.

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valence_engineer@reddit

The first thing is what's the business cost of not having QA? Be specific with examples, and be specific with impact.Discuss with the team that there are these bad business consequences happening. One solution is the following. These cannot be allowed to continue and then work with the team to align on what would help with that. Now they understand the goal, why its important and have agency in reaching the goal. Then you make action items and YOU followup with the team on those action items. That is your main job. Ensuring the plan they commit to is followed, that they are supported in that plan and working with them if its not. If they need more time to do better QA then your job is to ensure no one else (yes, that includes the f-ing CEO themselves) ever makes it in any way visible to them that they're moving too slowly. The second they do you lose all credibility because you asked them to do something that goes against the people who actually sign their paychecks.

The second point is that you are yourself mixing together the business goal (better QA) with the way you want to each it (TDD). The team may not think that is the best path given the current state of the code base, their preferences, their knowledge, tooling, etc. TDD has many people disliking it because it turns work into a bunch of mindless implementation of tickets. They no longer QA against the value to the business of the work, but now "QA" against the specifications in the ticket. They go from experts who contribute to the business outcome to code monkeys that implement a ticket (which is probably flawed since the person who wrote it is also not perfect). It's a subtle but very impactful cultural shift. They no longer feel ownership which means they will not give as much of a shit about the results over time. Human nature.

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prescod@reddit

What's funny is that I always "preach" about agile best practices and patterns, and always trying to find tiny things to improve in each sprint.

Dude you aren’t making any sense. Either the team “ values excellence and delivering with quality and speed” or it “doesn’t give a shit.”

We are talking only about the team that the problem employee is on. How can it both “value excellence” and also “not give a shit?”

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

My baseline is 4 years ago when I joined the team. Back then, folks had 0 clue what the components of the system were and there was 0 documentation. Compared to 4 years ago, the state of the team is 80+% better.

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prescod@reddit

We aren’t talking about knowledge or code quality. We are talking about attitude. Either they value excellence or they don’t give a shit. I just can’t see how it can be both at the same time. You need to introspect why your account does not make sense. Are you lying to us or to yourself?

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kreiger@reddit

I try to "empower" team members to identify ways to bring value and efficiency to the team and beyond.

You should go back to being a team member that brings value before this brain rot on display completely takes you over.

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malthuswaswrong@reddit

getting frustrated with change and modernization that is accelerating

This is a real issue that deserves deep thought. It's probably the root of the problem with him. Likely he's afraid that the more things change, the lower his value to the organization. He may be afraid that his many years of experience will be deprecated, and he'll suddenly be just another developer.

I've been a programmer for 30 years. And it's frightening to think how 25 of those years are good for nothing other than kibitzing about "the good ol' days". They have no practical use anymore aside from upgrading legacy projects.

He could have internalized that fear and it's coloring his attitude about updating architectures.

To get the most out of him you need to make him understand that you understand his true value to the organization. The best way to do that is to ask his opinion on things. Especially things that aren't directly related to the tech. Ask him how Shelly from Legal would react to a change in Product X. Ask him how we can shorten the turnaround time from Help Desk reporting and issue, to getting a fix out the door. Ask him what's the next big thing that should be automated by the dev team.

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siegfryd@reddit

I don't understand how you get the feedback that your sessions feel like a courtroom session, i.e. they are too rigid and your direction is to make it even more rigid?

Maybe the feedback is baseless or too critical, but it doesn't seem like doubling down is the correct response regardless.

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Which-World-6533@reddit

Have you tried actually talking to him and asking him why he's being an arse...?

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

I haven't really confronted him about that feedback, because I'm pretty sure that he thought the feedback request originated from someone else.

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FrenchFryNinja@reddit

So your answer to not being direct with the guy was to create a more distant and less team focused approach for the whole team?

Gonna be blunt: you’re acting a selfish leader. Rather than taking leadership you’ve been bullied by your assumed perception of a single under performer.

Be direct. Be honest. Tackle problems head on. If you’re not going to do that resign before you torpedo your team.

What you did here was the cowards way forward.

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Polite_Jello_377@reddit

You are a child

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_iggz_@reddit

Lmao you sound like a child dude 🤣

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_iggz_@reddit

Lmao you sound like a child

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bjenning04@reddit

So instead of doing one right thing (addressing the problem head on by having a conversation with the guy), you did two wrong things (tiptoed around the fact this guy is being an ass, and changing the whole team dynamic for one guy).

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prescod@reddit

What I did, however, was that I pulled back a little bit. Not smiling anymore. Not chitchatting. The team vibe shifted a little bit.

You changed the vibe for the whole team because of this one guy? So his attitude is now the team attitude?

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Acknowledged. I should be more stoic and emotionless.

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East-Present-6347@reddit

Lol you can't be this dense

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Suepahfly@reddit

You should not be stoic or emotionless. No one is.

You should however try to resolve the matter. But it seems you are actively trying to avoid talking to him.

Honestly the way you're taking all of this, and the way you're responding to people here, makes me think you aren't ready to be a lead.

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Which-World-6533@reddit

I should be more stoic and emotionless.

Or… everyone else is being honest and this one dude is a bad egg

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silvergreen123@reddit

Ya. The dude who struggles with basic tasks and can't pay attention in meetings gives bad feedback. Big surprise to the commentator for some reason, and they decide to suggest the least likely route by blaming OP.

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tjsr@reddit

Simple fact is that those of us who have been in the industry a long time have seen this over and over - very average team members in a team, with a terrible manager, and a single person who actually has a decent idea of what's going on - and feels constantly overridden and ignored just because six others disagree with them even though the other six are wrong. It's soooo common among Agile environments - you're basically made to not rock the boat, even though the boat is sinking. But if you point out the boat has a hole and go trying to fix it, you're told you're not performing because your focus should be on something else.

Meanwhile, the team leader will think they're doing a stellar job because only one person is willing to speak up.

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silvergreen123@reddit

1) How many times have you personally been in this situation exactly, as the sole person dissenting? 2) was it always 1v6 situation? Was it every 2v5? 3) in hindsight, how do you know you are objectively correct?

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

I'm definitely curious how experienced leaders navigate this sort of situation. I'm trying my best to keep myself emotionally grounded, not retaliatory and be as pragmatic as possible.. but deep down, I know that I will not be nice on that performance review writeup. In the past years, I wasn't as harsh in the performance reviews, even though he is not the best IC.

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Skullclownlol@reddit

I'm trying my best to keep myself emotionally grounded, not retaliatory and be as pragmatic as possible.. but deep down, I know that I will not be nice on that performance review writeup. In the past years, I wasn't as harsh in the performance reviews, even though he is not the best IC.

If your harshness depends on your mood instead of on their objective performance, and you willingly admit to wanting to be harsher ahead of time ("I know that I will not be nice"), then you're not doing your job.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Truth is, over the past few years, I have been downplaying how bad he is on performance write ups. Outside of work, he's actually quite nice.

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Ok-Regular-1004@reddit

I really don't understand the downvotes...

Oh wait I do. They're from the exact type of weirdo you describe in your post.

I've been in your shoes a few times over my career. It has always happened recently after going an org where these trolls seem to hide.

These types of people have very fragile egos, and once they decide you're a threat, no amount of kindness will win them over. At that point, you're rubbing salt in a wound. You're talented AND nice while they're flailing and bitter.

It doesn't get better. Anyone writing perf reviews like you describe is on the way out, one way or another. HR already knows it.

pigtrickster@reddit

There's a lot to unpack here and not nearly enough information to have a useful perspective. This leads us to create assumptions to fill in the blanks. That sucks.

You're the Manager and TL. (Fact that I finally found)
How much TL exp do you have?
How much Management exp do you have?
How long have you been at this company?
How has this problem senior developers prior reviews gone?

From reading a lot of your comments I have the following assumptions,

you sound like you have a very specific idea of how the team should operate
it seems like you try to enforce your world view.
there's not a lot of room for feedback
team does not seem to have any psychological safety. This is the foundation for a high functioning team. There are four more tiers after this is built and stabilized.
it's really not clear if your team actually trusts you or not. (go read "7 habits of highly effective people" chapter on Trust. Chapter 1 IIRC)
If the feedback that you are getting from the team is named (vs anon) then you don't know if you are getting real feedback. If it's anonymous then you do. Side note: if the team is really small then everybody knows that you will be able to figure out who's who.
you haven't mentioned that you have spoken with your manager about this, so my guess is that you are winging it. If you're a new manager then you need mentoring.
it also sounds like you really want to improve (kudos) but aren't getting the feedback that you want/need to do so. Is this a lack of feedback problem or not getting the feedback that you want to hear? Impossible to tell.
It may be that the one person that you are calling out is the one person who is actually able to give you feedback and you don't want to ... recognize that? And that relationship sounds adversarial.

There's a LOT of blame speak in this post and follow-ups. This is VERY unhealthy.

It very well may be that you are the one who is being tested if this Sr Dev has been there for a long time and has great past reviews. Or if this person has terrible past reviews then maybe your perspective is justified. Either way communication will benefit you as the Manager/TL.

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protomatterman@reddit

lol maybe he wants to get laid off. If not some people are outliers and work differently. Find out his motives.

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drachs1978@reddit

Are you the team leader or not? If you are, you have hiring and firing, fire him and replace him. If you're not, it's your boss's problem. Mark his low performance on the review, ask your boss/HR to put him on a pip, and make them deal with it.

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AlexanderTroup@reddit

You seem pretty clear about how you feel about him, and it's pretty obvious that he'll pick up on that. If you felt like a superior didn't like you for a long time, I bet you'd get pretty resentful too.

That said, it's not clear to me that he's intentionally underperforming, and if he's doing other work during meetings then it indicates that he's trying to catch up.

Put your personal feelings aside and look at it as a shared goal to build the product effectively. Maybe ask him how he thinks the project is going, what the blockers are, and what his career goals are. Maybe he's not getting work that feels like it's helping his skills, and if he's being passed over for promotion maybe he feels like you don't take his desire to get a promotion seriously.

I remember a few years ago constantly telling my manager I wanted to get to senior, and they never really mentored me on the skills I needed to improve on. Review time came around and when I asked they never even considered it. So I left the company and just applied for senior roles. Turned out I was already there, and capable of upskilling on the few gaps.

You want this dev to be a great colleague. Well give them the opportunities to become great. Show them that you're not a cynical complainer who just gives up on a person. Lead them to where they want to go in their career.

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planetwords@reddit

You have zero people management skills and it shows. Learn something about people management. Go on a course. Read some books. Don't just ask the internet.

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planetwords@reddit

I'd just like to add that I have had many, many unexperienced, arrogant, cocky bosses like you, and I've hated every single one.

People like you are the reason 20 years+ experienced engineers like me are so difficult to find.

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isarockalso@reddit

Sounds like you have a whole bunch of people feeding you a shit ton of fluff.

You have someone giving you realistic blunt feedback.

You wanted another pat on the back. He is senior

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Sea-Special-6663@reddit

For a second I considered the junior would be the problem but reading OPs comments. Holy shitt.

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belkh@reddit

to play devil's advocate, he's most likely burnt out. the reasons can be many but you can't expect a lot from someone who's not feeling driven.

was his performance this bad since the day you joined? anything happened between you two are the start?

if I had to guess he might have been tired of IC work, wanted to switch to management and instead of getting promoted you took the spot, this would fit in with everything else, him hating the process when everyone else likes it is more likely bitterness rather than actual issues.

if you think this may be the case, you could have a talk with them and see what their future goals are, e.g. do they want to leave the IC track?

this is all worth it only if you think they have something to add to the team and you don't want to lose them, like knowledge in the older parts of the system etc.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

It was actually the opposite scenario, he attempted a leadership role years ago, and realized it was "hell", so he wanted a more "lowkey" role to just coast. Now, this is in direct conflict with my overall team culture, that values excellence and delivering with quality and speed.

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prescod@reddit

I am stunned that you are being hated for caring about quality, speed and excellence. Am I in the antiwork subreddit? Someone please explain what I am missing.

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The1fox1@reddit

It might be my personal bias but if I heard from a team lead or supervisor they prioritize "quality, speed, excellence" then my gut instinct is that they probably suck to work with.

I'n my opinion if you genuinely care about those three things then they shouldn't be your priority. Instead they are byproducts of leadership who prioritize people not metrics: "psychological safety, team cohesion, and support from leadership". That's how you get excellence and quality and motivated team to deliver on time.

Otherwise when you prioritize metrics over people, you inevitably end up with devs who prioritize metrics over excellence and speed over quality.

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prescod@reddit

I somewhat see what you’re saying but excellence, quality and speed are not metrics. They are outcomes of high performance. Metrics are ways of (attempting) to measure those outcomes.

My team prioritizes those things because we have a lot of empathy for our users and we want to get excellent software in their hands to solve their pain points. Excellence, speed and quality are a means to that end. So are psychological safety, team cohesion and supportive leadership. All means to an end of solving user frustration and burnout.

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The1fox1@reddit

I can understand where you're coming from. And if sounds like your priorities do work for the team you have. I think when you very type A group that can work well together.

But I'm also a bit confused how does one prioritize say 'speed' without also prioritizing measuring 'speed'. I suppose it's not impossible but I just can't imagine a scenario (or maybe I haven't been exposed to enough cultures) where prioritizing speed wouldn't ultimately lead to religious tracking of 'speed', 'velocity', etc. And when that happens, there becomes this obsession with numbers on a board, that's where I think everything falls apart.

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prescod@reddit

Speed can be observed anecdotally just like any other fuzzy metric. “Woah…we were talking about this as an idea last week and we are getting positive feedback from customers about the deployment already.” That’s how we work. When we notice that the time between idea and feedback stretches into months we know something is wrong but we don’t need a dashboard to tell us.

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Boofmaster4000@reddit

Anyone who has worked in tech for more than a year can tell you the metrics you’re tracking are skewed at best and likely useless. It’s a sign of a bad culture to rely on metrics (yes, this doesn’t stop managers from continuing to waste time inventing new metrics that they then force devs to track). Often, forced metrics reduce psychological safety and team cohesion.

Do you think there are teams that don't "prioritize quality, speed and excellence"?

Absolutely. There are teams that don’t care about any of those three things.

Lots of them. People are always complaining on Reddit how they are stuck on a team that doesn’t care about those three things or only cares about one of them.

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ProtoAMP@reddit

His mouth says one thing and actions say another.

To be clear, everyone wants these qualities in a team but his actions from this thread come across like they view their team as something to manipulate and oppress rather than improve. That, and it's typical corpo, bullshit speak.

When things go bad, don't white knight it, and if leadership above you is pushing you to do so, it is your role to push back. Work with them, help them understand the position they are in, let them be a part of fixing it, give them agency, they aren't children.

You are asking for advice here, and it sounds like at work, though you seem somewhat resistant to hearing that feedback it is still good that you're asking. If you want to make this leadership role work you need to recognize every team requires different levels of leadership, and teams deliver different strengths, and it is up to you to manage that, practice empathy and adjust accordingly.

Leadership is ironically more about leading your team from behind and helping when needed, not actually leading the way. You should frame all of your decisions through that lens in my opinion.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Great input. Appreciate it and I will start strategizing.

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Which-World-6533@reddit

Now, this is in direct conflict with my overall team culture that values excellence and delivering with quality and speed.

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IndependentProject26@reddit

If you're retarded enough to give people like OP the benefit of the doubt, how did you even manage to survive past age 20?

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Pitiful_Objective682@reddit

These people end up being their own downfall. If they’re really that bad there’s other people that notice and they don’t really take poor performing employees feedback seriously.

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Cute_Activity7527@reddit

Whats this new trend of spineless “leaders” that avoid difficult discussions at all costs?

You lead by example. In this case it would be communicating poor performance, asking whats wrong and if needed firing toxic employee.

Thats what real boss/leader would do. Grow a pair.

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cleatusvandamme@reddit

As a guy that is AuDHD, I would have some suspicions that this person has ADHD. I’d have to see him in real life. I also can’t officially diagnose it either.

The being distracted and not focusing in meetings gives me that suspicion.

I think he could be dealing with RSD and possibly some imposter syndrome. You might want to look at those topics and see how you can connect better with this developer.

I’m also curious, how long are your meetings? If the meetings are going past 90 minutes, it will be extremely difficult to focus on them.

Any examples of struggling with those basic tasks and devating from well defined paths? Is he doing work related tasks during the calls? Is he working just on your team?

This is software. Basic tasks are frequently done silently within an hour or two, often not reported in detail, OR BLOW UP to expose huge design issues.

A good dev will spend most of his time trying something different and failing many times before getting there. Because you can rewrite code and retry. But then once it works you might not need to touch it for a long time.

Your other employees might be too afraid to give you real feedback. This guy has the balls to say what he thinks.

Your lack of concrete examples and being afraid to talk to the guy gives me vibes that you are actually not ready for the job.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Here's one example: He kept complaining that this source API for one of our systems is "faulty" and produces random errors. Hands up. For 3 sprints he kept complaining. I simply looked at the code and noticed that there is no exponential retry in place. What do you think in this scenario? High performane or low performance?

Another example, he was assigned to implement a feature that all other teams in the LOB had already implemented. I provided code examples, reference, and clear instructions. He was stressed out and struggling for 3 sprints...

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eemamedo@reddit

Funny how you talk s*it about low performance and how great you are, when your approach to a problem is “exponential retry”. Not a solution but rather masking a problem.

How did you get promoted? lol

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You see, that retry pattern already exists all over our code base. He just didn't bother to check to see if the retry configuration exists in that module or configured properly...

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rodw@reddit

You're missing my point. I think "if it's flaky add a retry mechanism" is a pretty reasonable solution to expect a senior engineer to come up with on his own, but it sounds like the engineer might have had different expectations: he may have thought it was unreasonable/unacceptable for the API you are consuming to fail so frequently and expected/wanted the team that provided the API to address the root problem.

That may be impractical from a sphere-of-influence perspective but it isn't fundamentally unreasonable.

It seems like that expectation could have been reset the first time the issue was raised: "yeah, that API is unreliable but we can't fix that right now so you're going to have to add a retry mechanism to work around it for now."

Waiting 3 sprints and then surreptitiously poking around in the code (and hopefully saying something at that point and not just bringing it up on Reddit) seems problematic. Why didn't this come up in a code/PR review or when the "complaint" was raised?

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wingman_anytime@reddit

So the source API fails often enough that you need exponential retry on a regular basis? That’s a workaround , not a fix, and he’s right to complain if the system you’re calling is frequently triggering retries on his end.

Exponential retry might not even be an acceptable solution vs failing fast, depending on other things like latency sensitivity.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

We don't care about latency sensitivity.

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wingman_anytime@reddit

That still means you’re using exponential back off to wallpaper over an ongoing issue. That’s amateur hour.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

It's a known issue with the vendor. There are higher order convos and escalations to fix it. Short term solution: Exponential retry. Long term solution: Get with the API vendor to fix their shit. It's not rocket science right? The problem is that the IC couldn't identify the short term solution, that is an existing pattern across the solution.

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ProtoAMP@reddit

I mean, an exponential retry might be an acceptable patch but it's not a solution. You're essentially slapping a bandaid fix rather than addressing the underlying error so I can see why he'd say it was faulty. I also strongly doubt anyone would do no work for 6 weeks and just complain without intervention.

As for the second, if other teams in the business had already done the work, why not reuse their implementation? Without more context there's a chance you're not seeing additional implementation details of adding that feature to your service.

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justUseAnSvm@reddit

I'm not sure who is right here, the criticism could be valid, but so too are your criticisms of his individual work. If you talked to the other team members, what would they say? I'd do that first, to get a sense of where you guys stand, and what's the teams opinion of this individual, as well as your manager.

Once that's done, you have two choices: keep him on the team, address the valid criticism, and work on the relationship. OR, the second option, wrap him with a bow, wish him good luck, and send him off to a new team that you think will be a better environment. Make this decision soon, and use his review as a tool to help here (for bonus points, of course)

I've been a team lead for almost 3 years, and have run into this exact situation several times. I'm very opinionated about "good development", and "senior level expectations", so me being upset with somebody doesn't mean it's the consensus view of the team, or based on the shared understanding of reality we use to make the tough calls. That way, when you act to fix the situation, you do so with a broader perspective untainted by personal bias (that bad review does sting and would certainly bias me), as well as management buy in.

The longer I'm a team lead, the more I realize that I don't ever have to be the one to make the hard calls, but I am in a powerful position to influence those around me to act in my interests. With this developer, you don't have to be the one whose views influence what happens to them: get the teams opinions, get your manager onboard with a recommended course of action based on that, then act in a way that best fufills what everyone needs.

In my experience, when someone is hard to work with in one situation, they've been hard to work with in other situations as well. Just dealt with a guy like, and was wondering, "am I actually the problem here?". Turns out, he had a history of clashing with management, and would later go on to step on another teammates toes, and at that point we escalated. See if there's a pattern of behavior here, I bet there is, then document it, figure out how you want to solve it, then package it all up into a 20 minute presentation and bring it to the manager for help.

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Far-Entry-4370@reddit

Checking in after a few hours, and honestly, if this thread is anything to go by, you might actually be the problem. Don’t let that inflate your ego though, this is Reddit after all.

My advice: talk to the guy. Doesn't ’t need to be formal. He sounds like he's been around the block, so he can't be total trash. You'll probably both learn something. Find some common ground and build from there. For all you know, the two of you might be a killer combo, if you're actually on the same team.

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IndependentProject26@reddit

Maybe he is resisting your well defined plans because he’s smarter than you, they are the opposite of agile, and your tech sessions, like your post, sound like courtroom settings.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Those technical sessions are kind of like standard "office hours", allowing team members bring topic to discuss and he whole team "swarms" to find the most optimal solution. It aims to foster a collaborative brainstorming environment. It has statically and historically worked and well received.

I feel like for this individual, he feels "shame" to raise topics to those technical meetings, because he is struggling with basic asks, and that's not a great "look" for a sr dev to raise basic syntax issues or CI/CD configs to the entire group.

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JustAsItSounds@reddit

TBH. You sound "insufferable"

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Please expand. I implemented this system a couple years back after reading this book, and objectively, it helped elevate the team from a dysfunctional team into a pretty performant team, delivery great features

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nextnode@reddit

"that never fail in prod."

Sure.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

You have no idea the shit show that was going on a few years ago when I joined the team. Angry customers, prod constantly failing, people firefighting... I implemented protocols and processes that got us to this point of "calm waters" lol

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joshlrogers@reddit

So, you have a savior complex as well and see yourself as the one who actually fixed things.

I mean this as someone who has worked with people like you throughout my career. You should really do a lot of self reflection and decide whether leadership is the right track for you. Maybe you need to reconsider and stick with an IC track and seek a staff/principle/fellowship position somewhere.

I also think you should consider that you're a lot more like this engineer you're seeking help with than you would like to admit and that might be a part of your conflict with him.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

There is truth to your statement, no doubt. There has been countless of times that I save their assess.

Earlier this year, the team was clueless working on a solution on a tight deadline. I gave them plenty of space, I defined the parameters, stated the objectives over and over. The project was failing. I took it upon myself to go into the trenches and rewrite their entire shitty code in two days. It took them 4+ months to create that dysfunctional mess. I saved their asses, and this IC gave me attitude instead of thanking me lol downvote me all you want. I'm getting downvoted no matter what I say anyway.

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joshlrogers@reddit

I say this with respect, but you need to do a serious bout of self reflection. A strong leader would tell you that you didn't "save them" rather you robbed them from the opportunity to learn and grow, even if through failure. A weak leader jumps in and does it themselves and blames the team.

You may be a great engineer, sounds like you can get things done, but you're not a multiplier. You're holding back your engineers, regardless of whether this guy is a bad engineer or not, by not being a leader. You've created a sink or swim culture, and when they sink you save them and then blame them for drowning, which also is a recipe for your own burnout and further degradation of your leadership abilities.

My recommendation would be to speak to your manager about moving more to an IC role. You sound like you might be in a good position to be a staff engineer. You can still white knight, but at the bequest of teams rather than by your own volition.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Hard to take your word for it don't know if you're the real problem or he is. Him being a senior I give him the benefit of the doubt he's not an idiot especially that he said you're not agile and you're sessions are courtroom like. Seems weird for someone who's who's you're saying is a bad performer wants more agile. Usually it would be the opposite because of the extra burden agile adds.

I'd have to know more about the company culture.

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malthuswaswrong@reddit

been with the company for a very long time.

This is his true value to the organization and to your team. He has the tribal knowledge. He knows where the bodies are buried.

Before having a design session, have a private conversation with him on the approach. One without an audience. Just you and him. Ask his high-level opinions on the approach. Critique them in private. Do it interrogatively.

"If we do this, won't it cause that problem?"

Then when you have the design with the larger team, you and he are starting from the same place design wise, and his ego isn't being challenged in real time in front of an audience.

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

What's your strategy to De-SILO the knowledge across the teams?

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davearneson@reddit

You are dealing with both low performance and resentment, and you have to address both.

Start by having a one to one conversation framed around curiosity and specific behaviours, not character. Describe what you see: struggling with basic tasks, deviating from plans, typing and missing information in meetings, hostile written feedback. Explain the impact on the team.

Then ask what he meant by “opposite of agile” and “courtroom setting” and listen carefully. He may be afraid of being left behind, threatened by others’ success or unhappy with how the team now works.

At the same time, be clear and firm. Use a Radical Candor mindset: you care about him, so you tell the truth plainly. Lay out the gap between the expectations of a senior developer and his current behaviour, and make it explicit that disengagement and hostility are not acceptable in a professional team.

Reflect honestly on whether your own style or processes feel overly punitive and adjust if needed, but do not use that as a reason to avoid hard conversations.

- cocoapuff_daddy

^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^Learn more about me.

^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")

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bonnydoe@reddit

I don't know who is resentful here: you haven't even talked with this dev to know what is going on. And maybe the other team members's feedback was so good because that's the way they figured out they can work with you???

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How am I supposed to exactly feel? Good? Neutral? Have you fired someone before? How did it feel?

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UntestedMethod@reddit

Before looping in chain of command or firing the guy, maybe you could step up as a strong and compassionate leader and figure out what's actually going on.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry for your loss. In the end getting fired is nothing compared to that. No promotion would have helped me get through it.

The best advice I can give to managers is to give people grace, but don't try to solve their personal problems (you can't). Sometimes, letting someone go so they can focus on themselves is actually the right thing to do.

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EmotionalQuestions@reddit

A leave of absence or extra bereavement time off is more compassionate than firing someone. It's not any harder.

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Ok-Regular-1004@reddit

Yes. Of course. That's not possible if the person doesn't tell you why they're spiraling.

A lot of people don't even connect their performance with their emotional state. They don't realize they need to take care of themselves.

I would never fire someone going through a personal crisis just for having emotions. But I would if they refuse help and are causing issues.

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DonaldStuck@reddit

Alright, I'm cutting too much corners here, I'm sorry. It's just that I have seen teams morally break down because of toxic members.

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tarogon@reddit

Recently, I collected feedback from all my direct reports, and while everyone else gave extremely positive feedback

After reading your comments, I am certain the majority of that "extremely positive feedback" isn't because people think you're a wonderful manager, but because they know how office politics work and are avoiding trouble.

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Tervaaja@reddit

Learn from feedback. Are you humble? Is your team psychologically safe environmentto work?

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superdurszlak@reddit

At this point, as a manager, do you see any reason to keep this guy around? Is there anything positive about his contributions if he's below standards in merit and in behavior?

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

I don't tbh. All the projects he contributed to this year had major problems.

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gomihako_@reddit

I'm a tech lead

I collected feedback from all my direct reports

So are you an engineering manager, tech lead, or both?

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Both sadly. I know it's weird. This is a mid size organization with strange structures

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gomihako_@reddit

Nah I feel you. I am actually both as well lol.

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ninetofivedev@reddit

OP. This is your job, my guy. This is why people management and technical management don’t go hand in hand.

He doesn’t have to like your style of management. You can’t please everyone. You’ve solicited his advice, now you can promptly ignore it.

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Astarothsito@reddit

he struggles with basic tasks, constantly deviates from well defined plans, and is visibly distracted during meetings.

It sounds like you're dealing with someone who was engaged with the team and at some point he lost the trust in the process and the company. There is not a "well defined plan" in software development, if there is one, why do you assign the senior to execute it? A junior can execute a well defined plan, seniors are for dealing with known and solve doubts.

Based on your comments, it seems like you have a different point of view on how to develop the product than the senior. A junior will be happier as there is path to growth by making you happy, a senior will know that they are going to struggle if they don't satisfy you, that could lead to a big frustration on the senior... It is not that they don't see their productive, but that what they see is that "even if I deliver well, if I don't make my lead happy I won't get any promotion, so I will try to do what makes me happy instead of trying to deal with my lead".

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dyingpie1@reddit

Unfortunately this industry is plagued with unqualified people who became managers

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Gordon101@reddit (OP)

Sure. The Sr Dev writes the shittiest code I've ever seen.

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wingman_anytime@reddit

Welcome to Dunning-Kruger-ville. Population: You.

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cheir0n@reddit

Thanks .

I am positive now that you are the unqualified and toxic one

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danielt1263@reddit

I'm mindful of the fact that I'm only getting one side of the story...

You say he's been with the company for a very long time, but struggles with basic tasks, and you won't be giving him a good review this year. What's different about this year? Is this the first year you've worked with him? Has there been some major upheaval in his life? What has made this year different, or has he always gotten bad reviews? If the latter, how did he stay with the company so long and become senior in the first place?
You say he constantly deviates from well defined plans, while he apparently said you are the opposite of agile. It seems to me that "well defined plans" and "agile" are the antithesis of each other. Is it possible that you are micromanaging?
You say he is distracted during meetings, while he says your sessions resemble a courtroom. I find this one interesting. I suggest you record a meeting or two and watch it back. How formal and long are these meetings?

Regarding your feedback request... You think that the one person who gave you a negative review didn't know the request came from you, while the others presumably did? Yet you trust all that positive feedback?

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Ciff_@reddit

Everyone else would never say a bad thing about you under any circumstance

These are just assumptions. It could be the case, it could also not be. He never said they gave no negative feedback.

But he is actually valuable to you, as the lone guy with balls big enough to tell you how he feels.

Someone saying what they feel is not in and of itself valuable. It is valuable in the context where the person has something actually valuable to say. It can be very valuable. But if it is a toxic coaster, it may aswell just be noise. And then it is just cost.

You don’t seem to know much about people management, let alone how to be a good manager

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Mean-Royal-5526@reddit

I've been that senior developer where I was absolutely demotivated to work because my lead just couldn't look at me being bogged down by all the politics happening around me and I couldn't care less. The onboarding when I joined was absolute dogshit, the other senior in the team never replied to me and the only other person I was directly in contact with was a junior dev who played the political game super well. He and I became the productive duo getting stuff done super fast, he sold it super well and got promoted. I got PIPed because the other senior complained that I used 'var' instead of 'let' in a file. Yeah right, and my boss instead of protecting me and understanding my side told me how my performance was horrible etc. etc.

It took me proving my worth in a PIP to actually show him what I'm worth but 2 years and I was questioned being a senior just because the company and the politics was too toxic for me. Maybe it's something similar that makes him super demotivated, either the politics or the work itself.

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MaiMee-_-@reddit

objectively below what's expected of a senior dev - he struggles with basic tasks, constantly deviates from well defined plans

Consider extra support or PIP-ing him. Do what you need for that.

visibly distracted during meetings. Even with his camera on, you can see him typing and doing other things

Seems like normal behavior when the meeting is much longer than it needs to be, and people feel it's better to be doing something else rather than be 100% engaged in these meetings. Have you considered feedback from him, or how these meetings are conducted?

forcing people to repeat themselves multiple times.

Has this feedback been given to him? Did he take this as a personal insult?

He also takes any feedback as a personal insult.

Seems like you also have a taste of that now

Simply put, he is very difficult to work with.

I would find ways to make sure you two don't work together, at the very least, from this feedback and considering you've had time to resolve your differences.

Recently, collected feedback from all my direct reports, and while everyone else gave extremely positive feedback and expressed how much they enjoy being on my team, this individual's response was VERY hostile, to my surprise.

Why are you surprised? Did you think he actually liked working with you or did you think he would be more diplomatic about it?

He seemed to think the feedback request didn't come from me

I'm curious why "a senior developer who's been with the company for a very long time" wouldn't know how the company's feedback system works.

and wrote things like I'm "the opposite of agile" and that my technical sessions resemble a "courtroom setting."

Well, are you "less agile" than someone could want and can your "technical sessions" make it seem like someone was being targeted and grilled? When you ask for feedback, negative feedback is almost always extremely valuable. You can choose whether or not to take them.

It was a bit of a punch in the gut, especially contrasted with the overwhelmingly positive feedback from the rest of the team.

Negative feedback is always hard to hear, but I wonder why you expect everyone's feedback to be of the same tone when they probably aren't feeling the same things?

I'm trying to figure out how to handle this situation

Okay

a hostile, resentful senior developer

Yes, he's definitely not your ally and has some resentment over how things are done in the team. Nothing yet indicates to me, besides your hunch, that it's also because of promotion/performance review though.

who seems to be getting jealous of newer team members

Nothing in what you wrote provided support for this claim

who are delivering more value and getting promotions

Well, nice. There's your expectations guidelines and people you can use in your team.

Any advice would be appreciated.

My two cents as your local online commentator:

Negative feedback is always hard. More often, there is some truth to it. Time will help you take it in. For the immediate, not letting your emotional response to the feedback take over your normal operations is key. It helps to process those emotions by acknowledging where they come from. Journaling helps. After the sting is gone, you can then evaluate the facts and outside observations much better.
Seems like you two are hostile to each other. What do you think you should do with that? Will you resolve your conflicts or do you prefer to agree to disagree and keep your distance and not work together? You can take actions to either of those ends.
If you prefer resolving the conflict, you need to talk and acknowledge his feedback. It seems like you specifically chose some that stings or have some truths to present to us, why not start with those? (After you tell him the feedback has been read by you.)
If you prefer not working together, a PIP is an option. It doesn't always need to result in a firing. Layoffs can be costly (especially with worker rights and severance pay), and it's not a great thing to initiate. In the end, it's just documentation and a process to certify later actions. If the action is to move teams, it may require less of a hassle.
Actually, I've seen your hostility, but does his hostility seem to just be not giving you glowing reviews? It would seem to me you make enemies easily if it's just from that.

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zerocoldx911@reddit

Why did you wait until year end review? Did you find out why he’s distracted?

There is more to life than work and it’s your and your manager to set them up for success

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bluemage-loves-tacos@reddit

All feedback comes from somewhere. It doesn't have to be 100% real to have truth to it, so it's always useful to remove emotion from it and try to understand what's driving the feedback.

I'd also say, this guys feedback is probably the most useful you have. Positive feedback is not helpful for growing in your role, so *use* it to improve. Why doesn't he feel the team is agile? What differs between your view of agile and his? Is something in the process frustrating him? The courtroom setting comment shows that there's a feeling of unsafeness in the sessions, so that is most definitely something to introspect about.

I'd suggest talking to him from the perspective that he doesn't seem happy with aspects of the team's process, and that you want to know how you can help. If you can both come to some understanding, fantastic. If not, and you've made some efforts to try and take his feedback on board, I'd suggest finding out how you can move him to a new team. A team member who is toxic isn't going to be a benefit.

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RedditNotFreeSpeech@reddit

Treat him the way you are ant to be treated when you start feeling the cognitive decline.

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MantisTobogganSr@reddit

if you are asking reddit instead of talking with him directly, you sound like a shit team lead. don’t become a manager if you are afraid of communication or bad at it.

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NotGoodSoftwareMaker@reddit

Most likely he has burned many times before. Not getting the recognition or bonuses or promotions he deserves.

This leads to resentment, the build up of resentment over the years would make anyone bitter.

An honest discussion with him about these things is where I would start, basically pointing out that he isnt performing at the level needed and that his behaviour is negatively impacting team morale.

Maybe he is going through some personal challenges?

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tuckfrump69@reddit

Pip him: he'll post something in this sub about how his manager is an asshole the next day

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Which-World-6533@reddit

Hello Reddit, my Team Lead has been AWOL for a few weeks and then I got some random negative feedback from someone. Next thing I knew I was on PIP.

We have endless meetings about nothing so I get work done in the background. I think the Team Lead is an ass but he's never around and seems to be posting on Reddit all day, rather than have a chat."

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WetHotFlapSlaps@reddit

You have a good list of feedback that can be matched with measurable actions for improvement that you should discuss in your one on ones. He sounds unfocused, is unengaged with the team and the project, and could potentially be lashing out feeling undervalued by his manager or team.

One of my best leads made it clear that if anything is a 'surprise' in review feedback, as in hasn't been discussed by the time reviews go around (including downward and upward feedback,) then that's his failure as a manager. On that team we knew fully well going into review season where we stood performance-wise, because we already knew how much has been needing improving at the time those reviews come around due to regular transparent two-way discussion. Annual reviews wound up being more about measuring our progress and commitment in acting on those well defined shortfalls, on top of the accounting for the usual list of accomplishments throughout the year.

That being said, it's possible that he feels he's owed something, whether that's title, responsibilities, pay, or other things. Sometimes awarding those things improves the situation if they are overdue, but if an attitude persists beyond a discussion of it, it could be a lost cause and a lesson for the future for both parties.

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thekwoka@reddit

Simply put, he is very difficult to work with.

Fire him.

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Idea-Aggressive@reddit

If remote, I’m looking for work. Friendly, high collaborator, etc. just let know where to apply

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UntestedMethod@reddit

On a personal level it sounds like he's unmotivated to bother with superficial stuff like politics or kissing the boss' ass or putting on a happy face just to keep the peace.

On a professional level, struggling with basic tasks seems sketchy. Either he's actually terrible at the job or else the above mentioned lack of motivation is poisoning his ability or desire to deliver. Being overlooked for promotions could definitely add to that kind of thing. Being somewhat social outcast could also add to it - by that I mean if everyone else is happy and chit chatty it can destroy the morale of anyone who has a different mindset, especially if the boss partakes it can easily be perceived as favouritism.

From a left field, there's also a very real possibility of poor mental health, depression, apathy for life, etc.

Anyway those are just some ideas that come to mind. People can act weird for any number of reasons. Part of a leader's role is to empathetically get to the bottom of it.

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biggamax@reddit

Rise above it. If you're pretty sure something you're doing is bothering him, then keep doing it. Do it without reservation, without shame, and without spinning your wheels mentally. (So long as it is professional and productive.)

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kernel_task@reddit

Just get him fired. This kind of thing never ends well.