France is attacking open source GrapheneOS because they’ve refused to create a backdoor. Will Linux developers be safe?

[-]

TarikAJA@reddit

Yes safe because the backdoor is already exist on every PC since 2008, it's the Intel ME, even AMD CPUs has but in different name.

[-]

DistributionRight261@reddit

If France has a backdoor, everyone has.

[-]

Affectionate-Mango19@reddit

The French are known to be very backdoor fixated. They love their croissants chocolately.

[-]

Dry_Row_7050@reddit (OP)

Source: GrapheneOS mastodon page

https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/115584160910016309

Same information is available on their X account

https://x.com/grapheneos/status/1991651509860462927

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

I can't find a single post where GrapheneOS says they were told to install a backdoor.

Where did you get that info?

[-]

Patrick_Barababord@reddit

A Graphene OS guy over react over a single article in French press. I saw nothing official anywhere.

[-]

It is not an overreaction for the project to accurately state what is happening. Government officials *did* conflate GrapheneOS with forks, and threatened the need for cooperation as they see it as a tool primarily used by criminals (which it's not and is absurd.)

[-]

Patrick_Barababord@reddit

I wasn't able to find anything linked to government threat directly to GrapheneOS. If you have something please share.

[-]

AutistcCuttlefish@reddit

Yeah I'm not surprised. It seems like everyone who works for that project has a severe persecution complex. This is not the first time they have lashes out over perceived threats that are seemingly not real.

They have some really good technical chops, but I suppose the saying "genius and madness are often two sides of the same coin" exists for a reason.

[-]

marshinghost@reddit

I suppose if there's anybody i trust with developing a privacy based OS it's hyper paranoid people who sub to r/gangstalking

[-]

Zettinator@reddit

I'd argue it's the opposite. You cannot trust delusional people to make sane, rational decisions for the project.

[-]

Affectionate-Mango19@reddit

That's why TempleOS is unhackable, for it's divinely perfect.

[-]

zeels@reddit

Exactly. Beside, the journal « Le Parisien » is a trash tabloid that nobody takes seriously (think of the dailymail or something).

[-]

Dry_Row_7050@reddit (OP)

It’s implied; when the top French prosecutor asks for ”cooperation” what else other than a backdoor could it be?

[-]

F54280@reddit

It’s implied

Woah, great journalism there.

We don't feel safe operating in a country where the official policy of federal law enforcement agencies is that backdoors must be provided

By opposition of the US where the exact same can be done but with a gag order that prevent you to discuss it? Yeah, France is shit, but you’re implying the Us is better. LOL.

And, come on, “Federal Agencies”? They are moronic.

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

Your title is flat out misleading and borderlinr fake news.

I actively participate in GrapheneOS community and this title is not sincere.

You knew what you were doing.

[-]

Dry_Row_7050@reddit (OP)

Please tell me what you think the requests for cooperation mean and I’ll fix it.

[-]

Fit_Flower_8982@reddit

If you wanted to be intentionally obtuse, good job.

[-]

TR1LLIONAIRE_@reddit

That guy must a French agent or something. Everyone with a brain knows that France was trying to get a back door before another country forces them to make one for them first.

[-]

spaceman_@reddit

Cooperation can mean many things, not just backdoors. Cooperation might mean cooperating in a specific case, or on a case by case basis, by providing log information ("who downloaded a Pixel 4a image in this time period?" or "are any of these IPs listed in your download logs") or a myriad of other things.

Using the limited information here and jumping straight to "backdoors" is disingenuous.

[-]

OldPersimmon7704@reddit

Are you trying to argue that any of that would even be vaguely approaching acceptable?

[-]

ThinDrum@reddit

It depends on the details. If the police obtain an order from a judge for some information pertaining to a criminal investigation, then yes. If the police demand information without judicial oversight and without a specific purpose, then no. The problem is that the GrapheneOS has provided no details about what "state actions" have been taken, and by whom. We're speculating in the dark.

[-]

zalifer@reddit

He's implying they're not backdoors. France is asking for something graphene don't want to give them, so it's probably something many of us would also consider unacceptable. But that doesn't automatically mean a back door.

[-]

OldPersimmon7704@reddit

They’re always asking for a back door. It’s been a few thousand years since governments last deserved benefit of the doubt.

Regardless, any cooperation whatsoever is unacceptable so it’s a meaningless conversation.

[-]

zalifer@reddit

It's not meaningless to try and be accurate when discussing important issues. While I agree that the overall issue likely has a similar outcome as they're asking for "cooperation" which likely means some unnecessary invasion of privacy, we are not sure and shouldn't state assumptions as fact.

[-]

swarmOfBis@reddit

The post talks about servers so it doesn't have to be about the OS itself. Thslere are multiple forms of cooperation fr*nch government could expect of them

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

You know you can post the word France? Why are you using an asterisk? Do you think it makes you look all cool and edgy?

[-]

hendergle@reddit

I thought it made them look cool and edgy.

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

Why are you not posting the words French and France?

[-]

Adventurous_Log_6452@reddit

every country wants a backdoor.

[-]

erwan@reddit

Did you publish the "request for cooperation"? All I see is a prosecutor citation in a news article saying they might sue if they find a link between GrapheneOS and a criminal organization.

[-]

Honest_Photograph519@reddit

How about you put what they said in the headline instead of replacing it with your guess about what it means... If you think your conclusion is so obvious why would you be afraid we wouldn't draw it ourselves?

[-]

speedy23425@reddit

Well France also arrested the Founder of telegram, Pavel Duriv, and treated him like a criminal and wanted him to install a backdoor aswell. This poses a threat to free speech what happens with all of the shit just like the shit in the UK

[-]

Practical_Engineer@reddit

They did not want him to install a backdoor. Telegram is by default unencrypted, they were requesting lawful information about unencrypted discussions and Telegram refused to comply. Don't spread misinformation.

Anyway use Signal.

[-]

speedy23425@reddit

„As of 25 August 2024, Durov was accused of complicity and negligence involving Telegram,[3] where serious crimes, including drug trafficking, child sexual exploitation, money laundering, concealment, and fraud, occur.[57] These charges were complicated by encrypted messages, which exacerbated the complicity charges. If Durov is convicted of the charges, he could face up to 20 years in prison. On 28 August, Durov was charged on twelve counts, including violations related to drug trafficking, child exploitation, money laundering and nine other crimes.[6][58] On the same day Durov was released from custody due to the expiration of the maximum allowable detention (96 hours) and placed under the judicial supervision, with an obligation to post a 5 million euro bail, a ban from leaving France, and the obligation to report to a police station twice a week.“ -

„These charges were complicated by encrypted messages, which exacerbated the complicity charges. If Durov is convicted of the charges, he could face up to 20 years in prison.“-

Source Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_and_indictment_of_Pavel_Durov

That doesnt sound alot like a lawful thing to do from the french government to get „lawful information“ but idk They couldve found another way instead of directly arresting him and putting a 5 million Euro bill on him.

[-]

Practical_Engineer@reddit

The reason they could do that was because telegram refused to deliver the unencrypted material and people involved. As the CEO, he was liable for that refusal.

Any communication on Telegram is by default unencrypted (unless you enable it) and groups are completely unencrypted as well. He could have collaborated and did not. So yes that is lawful as otherwise he can arguably be considered liable for his complicity.

Applications like Signal (or even WhatsApp except if part of reported messages), cannot be liable for that as they do not have that knowledge.

The restrictions on movements are things that are done in France at the discretion of the judge if the defendant is susceptible to flee the country or try to evade the police in any way. This is until trial. Also, as you pointed out he was not stuck in prison during that time.

Also, being charged does not mean you are guilty.

[-]

jartock@reddit

Requests for cooperation can mean anything. Most of the time, judicial power request IP adresses or logs in the limit of the law of course.

That's what happened to the CEO of Telegram for example. He wasn't asked to put backdoor in Telegram. He simply denied lawful requests of judicial power about some of its users at several occasions. Hence his problems with the Frenchs justice system.

As much as I agree that France political power wants an end to E2E encryption, here in the case of GrapheneOS there isn't any request for backdoor to this day. What happened to GrapheneOS, for now, is that French cops apparently conflate them with unlawful softwares because GrapheneOS was used by criminal as a base to sell hardened mobile phone for the mob.

Yes, the cops are idiots in this case, technically illiterate. But it's more a mistake than a deliberate attempt to make GrapheneOS close door.

Does GrapheneOS right to move from France anyway? Probably. I would be spooked too if my host country could make such a blatant mistake, honest or not.

[-]

erwan@reddit

Honestly the mods need to add a pinned post to clarify the situation.

I did some research on the links provided and it's more fake news than misleading.

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

To my surprise, I was being attacked and downvoted by some users of this subreddit for pointing that out. Didn't expect that from Linux users.

Calling me a french government agent and apologist. Very unhinged.

[-]

DuendeInexistente@reddit

There's a part of the linux community a lot of people doesn't want to acknowledge that's just completely unhinged and detached from reality. Constant persecution complexes that boil down to "the evil g-men are going to kidnap me and shoot my dog for using FOSS As In Beer", being weirdly fixated on specific software like holy cows and hostile to people who don't use it, falling for fake news like this like they're facebook boomers. It's super grating.

[-]

ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit

Well your original comment was rather blame-y so it's not surprising if someone somewhere (though, I don't see it) kind of got defensive about it. Regardless of whether you're correct or not I think expecting defensiveness is a given if that's how you approach the situation.

[-]

jinks@reddit

The fun part is: If this were an accurate description of the situation and if you were a a government agent, why would you try to deny and conceal that?

It's not like our governments are ashamed of their surveillance fetishism.

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

Brother then post some source for those of us not in the know

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

What are you talking about?

I'm telling OP they are exaggerating their title, that's it.

That doesn't need a source. Just click their links and read the thread, that's it.

[-]

whatyouarereferring@reddit

He says you're wrong, you say he's wrong. Currently, one user has posted way more information. I did read, you sound like you have some sort of extra information as a "longtime member of the community" or whatever you said. Nothing in the OP corroborates what either of you are saying with certainty. Nobody has evidence either way.

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

Is it really difficult to understand?

OP says grapheneOS was told to install a backdoor. No where will you find a single post online by grapheneOS claiming such.

Thats all there is to know. If that's really hard to digest then I don't know what else to tell you.

This is basic stuff.

[-]

TR1LLIONAIRE_@reddit

You are acting like you gave birth to the Fr*nch gov and wanna take this personal. Meanwhile they are trying to get rid of encryption, take away the right to protest, and also evidently went after the telegram guy. All of this would lead us to understand why the actual GrapheneOS account (not OP) would make the post that you’re arguing against.

[-]

ThinDrum@reddit

The person you replied to isn't arguing against the post by the GrapheneOS account; they are questioning OP's interpretation of it.

PS You're allowed to type the word "French".

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

There's never a good reason or excuse to spread misinformation.

The actual truth in the title would've received the same attention without the BS.

FOH with that garbage.

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

You've got 3 different people telling you you're taking this weirdly personal. Take the hint man. I just asked what extra information you had lmao. You've completely ruined your entire position by looking like an ass

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

The upvotes tell a different story.

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

Nobody can see those yet. Are you just assuming you'll get upvoted lmao

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

If your account was new and low karma, you'd be able to see it but the subreddit thinks you're a bot

[-]

tiffanytrashcan@reddit

"You're a bot and you're juvenile therefore I win"

Despite people seeing the change in votes. Your favor drops off the more you obsess.

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

Responding appears as obsession only to the stupid.

[-]

whatyouarereferring@reddit

Upvotes are hidden on this sub for new posts what are you talking about

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

Upvotes are not hidden from my account. Not sure why yours doesn't see them.

[-]

gramcounter@reddit

”We don't feel safe operating in a country where the official policy of federal law enforcement agencies is that backdoors must be provided”

[-]

ThinDrum@reddit

France doesn't have federal law enforcement agencies.

[-]

someNameThisIs@reddit

But they are then moving some servers to the US where backdoors must also be provided by law by things like the patriot act (at least I think so I could be wrong)

[-]

lndianJoe@reddit

Particularly when every French news website points to an article from Le Parisien. This article cites "police sources" but is also full of technical mistakes and misconceptions about what Graphene OS actually is.

[-]

i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit

Expecting media to understand technical subjects is like expecting the residents of North Sentinel Island to understand nuclear physics. They've demonstrated time and time again that they don't understand the absolute bare basics of technology.

[-]

VeloxAdAstra@reddit

The burden of proof is on you here... We are waiting.

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

Federal law enforcement policies are not the same as federal government laws.

[-]

CardOk755@reddit

The actual statement of the prosecutor was:

Interviewée, elle prévient qu'elle ne s'« empêchera pas de poursuivre les éditeurs, si des liens sont découverts avec une organisation criminelle et qu’ils ne coopèrent pas avec la justice ».

If links are discovered with a criminal organisation.

Are you saying GrapheneOS has links to the Mafia?

[-]

Yorick257@reddit

Doesn't have to be mafia. "Antifa" was declared a terrorist organization in the US. And the same happened in the UK with a group that supports Palestine. Maybe French have something similar?

[-]

DuendeInexistente@reddit

So you're making an hypothetical based on an hypothetical based on a one-off comment by someone without authority.

If you need to make more than one logical leap you're just reaching for the conclusion you wanted.

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

And the same happened in the UK with a group that supports Palestine.

Following them attacking a defence company, ramming a vehicle through the building entrance then attacking security staff and police officers with baseball bats and metal bars. Then later on breaking into a RAF base and causing damage to military aircraft.

Definition of Terrorism: "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

Sound like terrorists to me.

[-]

matjoeman@reddit

Attacking military targets isn't terrorism. That's just war.

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

Elbit Systems wasn't a military target.

[-]

Star_king12@reddit

GrapheneOS probably doesn't, but is it used by the member of it? Absolutely, 100%.

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

It’s implied

In the minds of the tin foil hat brigade.

when the top French prosecutor wants ”cooperation” with GOS

The top French prosecutor didn't make the statement. Some nobody made some minor comment in an interview.

[-]

ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit

In the minds of the tin foil hat brigade

I don't know the full facts of the situation but when 90% of responses are things like this it doesn't look good for the French government's side of things.

Some nobody in the police made some minor comment in an interview.

No? It was Johanna Brousse who isn't the top prosecutor but she is highly placed.

Judging from the original statement by the prosecutor it seems purposely weasel wordy. She just vaguely asks for them to be "cooperative" in complying with the law. But what I've seen doesn't explain what she means and that sort of statement could be applied to meaning "give us the stuff we're asking for" because law enforcement agencies (and prosecutors' offices) the world over routinely act like technology companies are just being uncooperative when they don't deliver the contents of encrypted data.

IIRC at one point the head the US's FBI at one point just said that he flat out didn't "buy" that there wasn't an secure way to place a backdoor in encryption. A thing no honest person with technical or mathematical expertise ever told him. They're just absolutely convinced that it's possible and everyone who says otherwise is just being difficult (or at least that's the narrative they're going with).

So I would say: Yes, it's a very real possibility that she was saying they should put backdoors in their stuff.

It's just not the only thing that she could have meant and follow-up questions are warranted.

[-]

parosyn@reddit

I am a bit confused by your comment, which country are you talking about ? There is no federal agency in France because France is not a federation. Are you talking about the US ?

[-]

ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit

I feel like you know what they were saying.

[-]

TheInevitableLuigi@reddit

Federal = national.

[-]

PingMyHeart@reddit

Federal law enforcement policies are not the same as federal government laws.

And I still don't see a post where GrapheneOS says they were told to install a backdoor.

[-]

MoonQube@reddit

Check their github, see if someone has made a PR with a backdoor in it

[-]

daylightenthusiast@reddit

Israel much

[-]

kinda_throwaway22@reddit

It’s almost like the “first world” nations have always been the terrorists

[-]

MammothRock7836@reddit

just because something is a law doesnt mean its right or good. dont obey. resist. france should know.

[-]

FunCalligrapher6651@reddit

r/europe tards will probably defend this

[-]

UNF0RM4TT3D@reddit

Well Fr*nce was for chat control with completely breaking encryption, so not very surprising.

[-]

AzraelFTS@reddit

The government of france is for this shit. I,and a lot of people I know have advocated publicly and sent mails to our official to go against this.

I am sorry this is not yet enough, but at least we try using democratic means. Maybe one day, less democratic means will be needed. Fortunately, this is part of our culture.

[-]

carnivorousdrew@reddit

Most of Europe is. The privacy and freedom stuff is only for politicians and cops. The masses have to renounce them instead. I much rather prefer the wild west of data selling in the US than all these demented things European parliaments do to maintain the politicians' status quo.

[-]

burning_iceman@reddit

Most of Europe is.

That's a mischaracterization. European politicians have this view. The public and the courts don't.

[-]

haakon@reddit

Europe's position is determined by its politicians. These are the people we elected to represent us. This means that whatever they do represents our will.

Sure it's a broken system and we don't actually want them to destroy our human rights, but we live in representative democracies, and these are the people we elected to represent us.

[-]

burning_iceman@reddit

That's missing the fact that countries have constitutions and the EU also has core principles similar to a constitution. If such legislation is passed, the courts declare it unconstitutional/invalid.

[-]

Affectionate-Mango19@reddit

All EU countries are known for having completely separate sets of laws for law enforcement/Intelligence agencies. In Germany, the BND has the right to spy on your calls for years without telling you, and they don't need any particular reason for it, other than "prevention and precaution."

[-]

burning_iceman@reddit

But in Germany they absolutely do not have permission for broad-scale surveillance of the population. It's individual cases only. Any attempt to legislate such methods has been struck down by the constitutional court. Specifically because the German constitution has strong privacy/surveillance protection.

[-]

StatusBard@reddit

Nah. They are elected on promises which they break as soon as they are in office. They do not represent the public in any way. Democracy died a long time ago.

[-]

Dotcaprachiappa@reddit

russian shill say what

[-]

carnivorousdrew@reddit

I am very much anti Russian propaganda of any kind and really hope Europe and rest of western countries will support Ukraine. By your uneducated and borderline illiterate assumption, that I am a Russian shill, how would I reconcile the fact that privacy laws are non existent and surely not respected in a country like that that does not even allow the use of the internet? Please go read a book.

[-]

Goat_of_Wisdom@reddit

It's a mixed bag, today we have this bullshit but only a few years ago we had pro-user policies (DMA and GDPR).

Did their attitude change because of lobbying or seat changes? Or maybe they always drew the line at users having actual privacy?

[-]

carnivorousdrew@reddit

It's the lobbying obviously and the European thing of keeping the generational wealth safe. The difference between US politicians and EU politicians is that relatively more EU politicians come from old family money (both left wing and right wing), and they will first of all act according to keeping their family tree wealthy.

[-]

builder397@reddit

I still prefer the European version of regulating shit and needing consent for cookies and such.

But yeah, the surveillance is something I still wont stand for.

Also fun fact: Politicians are an exception to all those surveillance efforts. So politicians clearly thing THEY deserve privacy. Just not the common folk.

[-]

shponglespore@reddit

That's a false dichotomy. Those of us in the US get nonexistent privacy laws AND evil government shenanigans.

[-]

carnivorousdrew@reddit

You can film a cop abusing power in the US. In most if not all of Europe that will end badly for you if you try it.

[-]

redballooon@reddit

This is just lazy fear mongering, nothing else:

[-]

04_996_C2@reddit

Unfortunately it's different packaging for the same shit. It doesn't matter the form of western government, any that has "for the public good" baked into its ethos will abuse it.

[-]

Punchkinz@reddit

Fortunately, this is also part of our culture.

Wanted to say, isn't your usual thing burning Paris to the ground whenever stuff like this happens? /s

Tbh, i am envious of this french right to protest. Other countries would do well with adopting it. Won't happen ofc because of the very same governments that would be protested against. But hey, one can dream i guess.

[-]

ZeAthenA714@reddit

Wanted to say, isn't your usual thing burning Paris to the ground whenever stuff like this happens? /s

French here, I burned two cars this morning while walking the dog.

But unfortunately this kind of issue will never cause enough stink to warrant national movement in France. Especially since the people who are the most in the know about how horrible it is (IT guys) are not usually on the frontline of protests.

Still cool how we routinely protest in France but unfortunately I feel like even that has been eroded over the past few decades.

[-]

Shogobg@reddit

I’ve read this as “burned two cars while Parking the dog”

[-]

ZeAthenA714@reddit

Yeah with the dumptruck he's carrying parking my dog is a dangerous activity.

[-]

eyekantbeme@reddit

Mdr deux voitures... 🤔🤭

[-]

Indolent_Bard@reddit

Then tell these IT losers to get on the front lines.

[-]

hectorius20@reddit

French here, I burned two cars this morning while walking the dog.

Always thought that burning at least 2 cars until 18yo was the basic proof of French citizenship, with boys and girls failing to do so being deported to Switzerland.

[-]

Fischerking92@reddit

Hey, that's unfair to Switzerland.

They would only take them if their networth rivaled small nations.

[-]

ByGollie@reddit

French here, I burned two cars this morning while walking the dog.

2we4u leaking :)

[-]

Shogobg@reddit

Save Notre Dame though!

[-]

Greenerli@reddit

French here, I think you missed the latest news on France since Macron (but it started a little bit before, with Hollande).

Actually, it started in 2016, all big social protests have been repressed with some strong legal violence... It started with Nuit Debout against the economic law written by El Khomri and Macron.

Then, there was the yellow protests. That was so violent that a lot of NGO that declared France wasn't safe anymore for protests.

And then, year after year, the government is pushing some anti-demonstration laws. It was close to be forbidden to record policemen for example. But they autorized algorithmetic video-surveillance (face detection), IMSI-Catchers are now legal.

And I think for next year, I heard they try to prevent journalist to record demonstrations.

So the consequences of that is that people are now afraid and scared. And that's perfectly logical. So, they finally repressed any serious contestation now.

[-]

Fischerking92@reddit

I am pretty sure that that has been going on for longer than that.

I visited Paris in 2019 (or maybe it was 2020?🤔, but I doubt it, can't remember COVID being a thing) and visited a shitton of tourist attractions while there.

The amount of armed military guards walking around was honestly shocking to me.

(Nothing makes your day like a poorly trained private who keeps flagging you with their gun which you have to assume is loaded with live rounds😅)

From my understanding: any country which considers it normal for military to do police work is on a bad trajectory with regards to civil liberties.

[-]

Greenerli@reddit

Yes, armed military are part of Vigipirate. And it has been intensified since the 2015 terrorist attack (Bataclan and Charlie Hebdo). The official objective is to protect civilians against a potential new attack.

But to be honest, it's hard to difficult it's an effective protection... It costs a lot and it's very boring for military. They even said it's such a depressive mission that a lot of military quits because of that ^^

I see that as a opportunist measure from politicians. It's easy to deploy and nobody want to retire that.

And the side-effect is that, now, citizens have a constant reminder they should live under fear because "imagine there is a terrorist attack ! They can strike anywhere, everywhere, for no reasons ! That's why you should support us when we try to remove some individual freedom to fight against terrorism".

These military won't be used to repress protests, but they will install fear on civilians and be used as a reminder that you can be killed everywhere and anytime.

[-]

kwyxz@reddit

> The amount of armed military guards walking around was honestly shocking to me.

This is because of Vigipirate. It's a counter-terrorist alert system, which does involve armed military personnel patrolling the street. It's existed for decades now, is activated then deactivated depending on terrorist attacks and risks reported around the globe but it has been running non-stop since January 2015 and the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

[-]

Fischerking92@reddit

I am aware, but just because something is doneto counter terrorism doesn't mean it is conducive to civil society.

The Patriot Act was also done under the banner of "Counter Terrorism"

[-]

Mak8427@reddit

It’s the same in Italy and in Germany

[-]

kwyxz@reddit

Sure, but what I meant to say was that the armed military you've seen on the streets are not the ones repressing the protests. That would be the privilege of the police and the gendarmerie.

[-]

CognitiveSourceress@reddit

You have it backwards. France's strong labor / populist actions do not come from some enshrined "right". It comes from a long culture of class consciousness and populist action. Any tolerance from the government, to such an extent it exists, exists because the people make it the only practical option.

The French people wouldn't stop their populist actions just because the government stopped tolerating them. In fact, the government is routinely oppositional to them to pretty severe degree. The fact that they do it anyway is what protects the rights and culture they have.

Any country envious of the French attitude toward populist action doesn't need laws protecting such actions. They need people willing to make themselves ungovernable as long as they are not heard. The rights arise after the culture makes it clear they won't have it any other way.

[-]

NYPuppy@reddit

Like maga? I agree with your post in general but populism and popular protest are not just good or moral by default.

Even with this encryption and privacy debate, a lot if not most normal people would be in favor of weakening encryption because they have "nothing to hide" or because weakening encrpytion would supposedly fix child abuse or lead to finding terrorists. They are wrong but that is the simplistic and easy to understand populist explanation.

I find it hard to explain to people why encryption is a good thing. Most of them don't even care that advertisers have their data.

[-]

goldenturtleitch@reddit

Bravo sir. Well done. 👍

[-]

ibmi_not_as400_kerim@reddit

burning Paris to the ground whenever stuff like this

They only do this when it comes to cutting their ballooning government spending, which they are unable to get under control.

[-]

ComfortableDoor3691@reddit

In my country we tried it in 2021 and although burning and splitting in two several cities in the country brought results, now we are at the door of choosing between "progressive continuity" or the new DJT who returns us to the "flock" of the (extreme) right from which we should not have left. /s

[-]

user888ffr@reddit

As a French Canadian (Québécois), I think it's a shame what politics in France has become. But compared to us you guys are really good at protesting, man if I could see people in the streets like that in Montreal I would be so proud.

[-]

FerorRaptor@reddit

Fortunately, this is also part of our culture.

And thank god it is

[-]

ANDR0iD_13@reddit

Do they actually have a govt. atm, or who does this? I tought they don't have a govt. again.

[-]

agent-squirrel@reddit

Beheadings will commence at dawn.

[-]

redballooon@reddit

Bah. The less democratic means are in their starting holes, and they won’t act for your privacy.

[-]

AdreKiseque@reddit

Maybe one day, less democratic means will be needed. Fortunately, this is also part of our culture.

🔥🔥🔥

[-]

Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit

Maybe one day, less democratic means will be needed.

No one is rising up for Linux backdoors even in France lol.

[-]

deanrihpee@reddit

play their game, agreed to it but only if the government also not being excluded, if they're about backdoor and no encryption, level the playing field

yes i know they probably do it anyway and protect themselves, i'm just hating the state of internet becoming like this that the government body is immune while the rest is basically under every millisecond surveillance

[-]

Redacted_usr@reddit

And god bless you guys for it. I love the French for that

[-]

SadInterjection@reddit

And what are you guys going to do about it if your opponent doesn't care about democratic means and does it anyway?

Just crumble?

[-]

Shap6@reddit

France. You can say France on the internet

[-]

cheeseIsNaturesFudge@reddit

Its a running gag that frnce and frnch are dirty words, I've seen it around other subreddits.

[-]

DrChuckWhite@reddit

You play chess?

[-]

cheeseIsNaturesFudge@reddit

In not on the chess subreddit if that's what you mean, but I did get rather ok at playing thanks to my co-worker.

[-]

LigPaten@reddit

I CAN say a lot of things, but my moral code prevents me from saying some of them.

[-]

GeneralUnlikely1622@reddit

Go wash your mouth with soap.

[-]

x54675788@reddit

Which is a shame because France is a strong industrial and scientific engine for Europe.

[-]

Dangerous-Watch932@reddit

Same for bri*ain

[-]

bAZtARd@reddit

Why are you guys censoring country names?

[-]

TR1LLIONAIRE_@reddit

It’s important to speak vague and censor as much as possible while still sending the message across. unless you wanna lose your account

[-]

Shap6@reddit

They dont delete peoples accounts for innocuous shit like this

[-]

Analog_Account@reddit

Can confirm.

Once on an occupational subreddit responded to a post from someone who was clearly going to k*** themselves via my occupation. I suggested that they do it somewhere else and not involve us.

That got my comment removed, maybe a temp ban (can't remember), and a warning. Account still active.

[-]

schwanzweissfoto@reddit

I got a 3 day ban once for complaining about being misgendered in a comment, without any slurs or so.

[-]

Shap6@reddit

from reddit in general or a specific sub? individual subs can definitely have trash mods, but the "removed by reddit" site wide bans are from admins

[-]

StickyDirtyKeyboard@reddit

Not to say that there aren't trash admins though. I once got a "removed by reddit" and a warning for posting a modified version of the Navy Seal Copypasta in a satirical subreddit.

They've started using machine learning/analysis to find potentially rule-breaking content. They say it still goes through human review, but if it really does, I think that review is likely to come from someone who will just shove the message into an LLM and ask for its opinion.

I digress though.

[-]

schwanzweissfoto@reddit

From reddit in general.

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

ROFLMAO.

[-]

gogybo@reddit

It's a joke, as if to say that the name of the country is equivalent to a swear word.

[-]

CuriousBrit22@reddit

Proud Brit here who agrees our gov’t is shite. I thought the spelling was a joke mocking the cockney accent they think we all speak

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

No just someone who has watched too much Matrix, thinks they're a 7eeT hAxX0R and edgy.

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

Fr*nce

Why are you posting that and not the word France?

[-]

Negative_Round_8813@reddit

Not only France but most of the EU.

[-]

Romanouchet@reddit

Macron also called a few weeks ago to censor social medias

[-]

joanaloxcx@reddit

I don't think the government will take your protest seriously, unless you forecast it to the unaware public.

[-]

flametai1@reddit

This doesn't surprise me at all either, and the worse part is I'm sure they're trying to also push their agenda here in America considering lots of companies around here are owned by france companies.......

[-]

lastethere@reddit

They are pushing their MAGA agenda here? Like Bolsonaro in Brazil, punishing Canada with tariff for a video etc...

[-]

04_996_C2@reddit

FFS. Some of you are so pavlovian in your actions

[-]

lastethere@reddit

You are referring to Russian humanism.

[-]

04_996_C2@reddit

You may have read a book in the past, but you've read the wrong one. I think Wikipedia is sufficient to inform you on pavlovian responses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

[-]

ksio89@reddit

I'm not surprised. Indoctrinated people aren't to able to think for themselves, they just repeat what their ideological agenda tells them to, like a parrot.

[-]

flametai1@reddit

Really TBH all the governments need to stop pushing shit onto all the other governments, but instead people are allowing them to do it and just pushing the blame on other ones, so how about we agree that they're all over reaching a lot.

[-]

TheMakara@reddit

I think the issue mainly revolves around the fact that criminals have used Graphene a lot. Because all of its privacy features cater to them very well. It might not be made for them, but that's the reality and what the legislature sees.

Add to this that a lot of the politicians and officials have barely any tech-knowledge, chat-control etc... it Maes sense.

[-]

Stitch10925@reddit

You need to start realizing that there is a global push for digital slavery, like they have in China. Central Bank Digital Currency, Digital ID, EU Chat Control, medical records in a digital wallet, government documents in a digital wallet, etc. is all centralization of digital power. The "because criminals use it" story is just a ruse to get people to accept it.

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

As a French citizen, we need a lot of applications that do not work properly on any android alternative os (such as lineage or graphene). Neither European laws or companies help us to avoid proprietary software and telemetry... Note : In my company, open-source software are absolutely banned...

[-]

BlincxYT@reddit

does your company know that most things use open source libraries and other programs under the hood? a server running any kind of linux would break their rule. nginx, (open)ssh and a bunch of other stuff too.

[-]

Lusankya@reddit

Most companies that ban "open source software" are actually banning software that doesn't have enterprise-grade paid support options available. So running Debian in those orgs isn't okay, but running Ubuntu LTS is, because there's someone you can call (and blame) if it breaks.

This requirement is often pushed onto them by insurance companies, who are wary of underwriting policies that can be measured in terms of new cars per downtime minute. It is very important for big orgs to have someone they could theoretically sue when things break.

That very important nuance is lost on the junior whose proposal to migrate from Exchange to a homebrew LDAP just got slapped down, and they eagerly tell all their coworkers that "open source is banned!"

[-]

Affectionate-Mango19@reddit

I don't even think that's economical. The subscription costs statistically outweigh any potential monetary gains from a lawsuit. It's just insurance companies milking everything and anything dry as per usual.

[-]

Euclois@reddit

It always comes down to insurance companies... They're behind every decision

[-]

Infamouslycorrect@reddit

but running Ubuntu LTS is

More like Redhat. Which they do. And now their AI solution as well. But you are correct in your assertion; it is a support-driven decision, they want the price with support baked in - almost always.

[-]

Lucas_F_A@reddit

As someone who's literally never been exposed to this, this makes a ton of sense.

Chesterton's fence and all that

[-]

Interesting-Injury87@reddit

even ignoring the legal situations.

What is a Company more likely to use, a tried and true enterprise product with hundreds of thousands of companies who also use it as examples of it functioning, and it being pretty much the same thing in every company, thus traning employees coming from other Companies in the sector being easier.

or a bespoke Open source installation that has been tweaked so it isnt really stck anymore

[-]

dumpaccount882212@reddit

Of course they do. That doesn't change distrust from companies about FOSS stuff. The idea is that its not in-house OR can be purchased whole it has no value.

Its company economy department brain-rot and it exists almost everywhere at a certain size.

[-]

eirexe@reddit

Spain is planning to ban open source accounting software in the future, with a 100k€ maximum fine, it's wild.

[-]

ivi9901@reddit

In which context? Like, for any company, just for government entities...?

[-]

eirexe@reddit

Any company, basically, accounting software needs to be certified to not have the ability to keep hidden accounting data for working with untaxed money, which is very common in Spain among small businesses, who couldn't survive otherwise.

The certification has to be done by a company and is only valid for a specific binary of the program, the fines go up to 100k€.

This is not yet the reality, as the law is approved but not yet in effect, but it will be.

[-]

ivi9901@reddit

Lovely. I was proud of being European. Not anymore. Now those programs will also be expensive as hell...

Me encanta como los políticos españoles persiguen a los pequeños negocios y autónomos y los sangran hasta el más mísero céntimo mientras la mayoría de los políticos roban y transfieren a caja B sin problema. Y las grandes empresas pueden robar lo que quieran, como son grandes...

[-]

eirexe@reddit

Dimelo a mi, que soy un entusiasta de los coches viejos y me los van a acabar prohibiendo XD

[-]

ivi9901@reddit

Ya ves, menudo asco, xD Los vas a tener que tener de exposición. Para luego tener que usar mierdas modernas que tampoco contaminan tantisísimo menos como lo quieren hacer ver y que se les jode la electrónica en dos asaltos.

[-]

chithanh@reddit

As a French citizen, we need a lot of applications that do not work properly on any android alternative os (such as lineage or graphene).

GrapheneOS maintains a hall of shame for such applications:

https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide#apps-banning-grapheneos

But the list seems pretty short, I guess it is about using Google Play Integrity rather than Android Hardware Attestation? The latter will fail on LineageOS but not on GrapheneOS.

[-]

IrrerPolterer@reddit

How do you ban open source?! They'd not be able to use pretty much any software at all.

[-]

haywire-ES@reddit

in my company, open-source software is absolutely banned

How is the ban worded? And why on earth is that even a thing? Like 90% of all software is underpinned by open source projects at some level

[-]

_LePancakeMan@reddit

The company I currently work for had something like that in my contract, for no reason. I demanded they remove that portion of the contract, since the very (programming) language and framework they will pay me to use is OpenSource - so yes, I will be using OpenSource software. Not sure, what the intention behind that was

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

They just told me it's a security measure. For example kdenlive, libre office, audacity are impossible to install, but using Microsoft solutions like 365, teams and others is absolutely fine. Like with GPO, we can't do anything on our own company laptop. On top of that, an application that is necessary to anth use a kernel verification to assure that your phone works with a bare metal android, without any sandboxing or privacy rules.

[-]

RobotSpaceBear@reddit

So it's not that they're against open source, they just want to keep running software from a company that is bound by a contract and that they can sue if needed. They want a liable company partner, not a proprietary-code-only partner.

[-]

spyingwind@reddit

There are companies that offer support for just about any open source project. Pay them and you effectively can blame them if they can't fix your problem.

[-]

ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit

I feel like the quality support organization is an important factor for people in that situation. If you hire Jim Bob Debian Support Bonanza then you're still going to get blamed for hiring them because "out of all the companies you could have picked, why did you go with Jim Bob? Jim Bob failed but you should have anticipated the failure.

Any support organization large and robust enough to avoid that blame is pretty much already going to be Canonical, RH, SUSE, etc, etc.

[-]

haywire-ES@reddit

Most enterprise IT departments won’t touch things like that with a barge pole unfortunately, because they’d be sticking their neck out by pushing an unfamiliar solution

[-]

DDOSBreakfast@reddit

they just want to keep running software from a company that is bound by a contract and that they can sue if needed.

Bon chance holding software vendors liable for bugs in their software causing issues. I don't even think any of the lawsuits against Crowdstrike proved to be fruitful in a very clear case of negligent practices causing massive financial losses.

[-]

Orly-Carrasco@reddit

I would resign from that company. I smell collusion and weaponized incompetence.

[-]

AnotherPortalis@reddit

that guy is either bad with english or does not understand his company policy and why it's there. Most companies operating with an ISO 27001 certification in mind will do the same thing.
The goal is to ban shadow programs on the devices that the company own and its employees use for work. That way mister accountant cannot install his torrents programs etc ...

I can with almost certainty guarantee that that company uses linux servers one way or another. For end user progams on the other hand, you DO NOT want any smartypants to install whatever he wants or compile whatever he wants on his work computer.

Yes there are some open source alternatives, but what you're aiming at here is using an OS and programs all your users know how to operate withtout breaking them, hence most of the time Windows or IOS.

[-]

haywire-ES@reddit

I’d be willing to bet that basically every single Fortune 500 company etc all operate software whitelists. Nothing to do with collusion, in most cases allowing users to install whatever they want is a recipe for disaster

[-]

fishter_uk@reddit

Amazing. Teams includes copyright notices including the MIT, Apache and other licences. There is a link in the NOTICE.txt document in Microsoft Teams to the open source downloads that are legally required to be made available by the distributor https://3rdpartysource.microsoft.com

Maybe your IT team need to re-evaluate what they're trying to ban!

[-]

spiteful-vengeance@reddit

All that stuff is "open source provided by Microsoft". The assumption being that ms has vetted it.

It also means if something goes catastrophically wrong, fingers have somewhere to point.

[-]

Elegant_AIDS@reddit

Thats not the point of such ban, microsoft would still provide support and take responsibility for the open source components they bundle with their app

[-]

spyingwind@reddit

Wait until they find out that PowerShell 6+, .NET 8+, Windows Terminal, VSCode, PowerToys, TypeScript, WinGet, Playwright, vcpkg, any many more are open source by Microsoft. Oh! open-ssh can be installed on Windows, provided by Microsoft as an optional feature.

[-]

haywire-ES@reddit

Ahh I see, so not explicitly banning open source software, just operating a whitelist

[-]

wheniwasjustalilbaby@reddit

wow. the same logic is more-or-less used by game companies pulling support (not developing anticheats) for linux.

[-]

PsychologicalWall192@reddit

Defense industry ?

[-]

OwO______OwO@reddit

Note : In my company, open-source software are absolutely banned...

What shithole country is that?

[-]

Tomycj@reddit

I'm sure demanding even more state intervention, in a country with already one of the biggest public sectors in relative terms, will solve the issue.

[-]

WantonKerfuffle@reddit

open-source software are absolutely banned...

Windows Update uses curl lmao

[-]

Kazer67@reddit

Which one do you actually need? I didn't have any issue using Android instead of Google Android so I'm curious now what you need that doesn't work?

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

Company Auth application (private and closed one), bank application (you can access it on graphene and others, but to do anything like request to increase your payment capability, you need to ensure your phone. That feature only works on Google android without any sandboxing).

I also regret that proton mail app can't be installed properly outside of Google play store... Same for bitwarden, banking apps, etc... Also, I really appreciate smart watches (notifications, sleep time, steps...). But with these types of os it can't really run as expected...

[-]

Kazer67@reddit

That's weird, Crédit Mutuel / Caisse d'Épargne and Boursorama don't need a smartphone (I can confirm it for those 3).

Company Auth that respect the 2FA standard aren't an issue usually so they may implemented something weird that don't respect standard practice (maybe check if you can instead use physical key like Yubico instead of an app?).

I don't have any issue to get notification as well on my smart band (Mi Band) so it work as expected (but do note that I use microG, so I may have installed a third party notification manager, can't recall but it work as expected).

Protonmail can be installed outside of Google App Store, Bitwarden as well (F-Droid url: https://mobileapp.bitwarden.com/fdroid/repo) but there's always the possibility to use an alternative, more private third party client for Google's servers like the Aurora Store which connect to Google's servers with an anon account and allow you to download and update apk and even allow you to use "other phone" trickery (so you can even download apk "not compatible" with your phone and install them).

The only one I had a bit of struggle, not that it doesn't work but too much work to do, is Revolut since I had to patch the boot image and some files to trick it to think it's not on Lineage and it isn't rooted because apparently, old End of Life Android version are safe for the app but not the latest Lineage with the latest security patch.

Can you list the banks that have that issue so that can add them to my banlist?

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

Société générale is a real pain when you set your phone as an enforced device (capable of transferring money from accounts, increasing your card limit, and a lot of important actions. To enable it, the app goes to verify your kernel (the mess) to only approve a standard and non sandboxed app on hardware.

For proton it could interest me, apk could be tricky in the long-term... Is Aurora really safe ? A lot of users said that this app manager is a mess cause of a lot of troubles and security issues...

My company does not respect the 2FA. It's a specific one, to sign-in on intern network and applications. To generate Auth, the device needs to be enforced. And so, need to be a "classic Google android"...

For your smart watch, which application did you use ? Sorry I'm just curious 😝

[-]

Kazer67@reddit

Aurora is basically a third party client that connect to Google servers directly like the Play Store, so yeah, it's a security issue because the Play Store can have security issue (malware that already slipped through multiple time).

The one that's the most secure currently is F-Droid has they only deal with Open-Source software and they compile everything from said source.

The SG situation seem the same as Revolut, so you probably need Apatch and modify the same version files to trick it to think it's Google Android but by doing so, you'll lose OTA update from Lineage and you will need to modify said fail each time you do manual update (that's assuming they actually don't have an alternative way beside platform like the Crédit Mutuel where you have a small device that can scan a proprietary QR-Code).

For the smart band, I just use the official app from Xiaomi: Zepp Life

[-]

General-Quail-2120@reddit

This is completely unrelated, but I look three years of French and never said hello to a French person. Bonjour!

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

The traditional "Bonjour" is usually used in large companies and corporates to say hi to someone, particularly managers and director. Outside of my work, I never use it too.

[-]

TheTilde@reddit

I feel that I misunderstand something, because saying bonjour/hello is minimum and basic politeness in France. It's more than common, it should be said whenever you go and buy something at the counter or before talking to anyone in the street

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

I worked 2 years as a student in a supermarket, and a LOT (no abuse) of clients don't say it. Either "Bonjour" or "Au revoir" (goodbye). Since COVID-19, a ton of people close-up on themselves, and so decided that these words aren't necessary at all today. Only in professional condition did they try to be polite.

It's more like a cliché, but depending on where you go, you could absolutely never say anything like Bonjour... That's why I dream of living in another country, just to meet more polite and "human" people... Which country is the best ? 🤣🤣

[-]

PsyOmega@reddit

Bonjarno!

[-]

-Polarsy-@reddit

Coming from the country where where /e/OS, IodéOS, and Linux Mint is developed, that's weird...

Also, there's an official webpage cataloguing FOSS software and their users in public infrastructures...

https://code.gouv.fr/sill/list?sort=user_count

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

You got the point! There is no sense, only contradictions. Promote open-source, then tell companies to create a backdoor for the government. Linux mint is popular and a lot use, but phone os are not made for real French conditions. Probably someone would use graphene without any trouble, but absolutely not for a majority of French citizens.

[-]

Which_Name_4522@reddit

Which stupid country is that?

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

C'est la France ! Pas toujours fières mais on fait avec 🤣

[-]

iaacornus@reddit

maybe it is time to do your best dish again! I’d want one A la louis 16 XVI special!

[-]

AliceChann50@reddit

The most I can do is to use my wonderful personal laptop with Debian, so the government can't stalk me everywhere 🤣

[-]

operatordragoon@reddit

Ever since Napoleon was gone. France steadily declined. Ohh how the french have fallen

[-]

94358io4897453867345@reddit

Typical for this oligarchy

[-]

DelkorAlreadyTaken@reddit

Leave France while you still can

[-]

ChocolateDonut36@reddit

torvalds once was asked to add a backdoor to Linux, he said no and pretty much nothing happend.

[-]

PapaOscar90@reddit

Well, Linux isn’t an OS built specifically for criminals.

[-]

deanrihpee@reddit

the difference is Torvalds is very famous as the face of Linux, and Linux is big, like i'm pretty sure you do know how big it is

but GrapheneOS is much more "niche" product, and aim toward end-user where... normal citizen people use them, while Linux, well... most of the "users" are servers, also GrapheneOS project is considerably more smaller than the "Linux kernel"

[-]

ranixon@reddit

Not only that, it also being used by a lot of governments around the globe, adding one backdoor for one government will compromise other governments.

[-]

PassionGlobal@reddit

Including their own

[-]

Mars_Bear2552@reddit

unless they're aware of how the backdoor is implemented and they just patch the kernel sources for their machines

[-]

imradzi@reddit

in the end, only government owned grapheneOS that has backdoor. It's good! It allows hackers to enter their sites.

[-]

OwO______OwO@reddit

Unless the backdoor is very sneaky, it will be spotted and plenty of other people will develop patches and new forked kernels that fix it.

[-]

Mars_Bear2552@reddit

might not be obvious. just intentional vulnerabilities.

[-]

redbluemmoomin@reddit

Including the Gendarmerie...

[-]

aeltheos@reddit

https://grapheneos.org/faq#audit

ANSII (French Cybersecurity Agency) apparently made contributions to GrapheneOS.

[-]

RustySpoonyBard@reddit

Graphene is used by governments?

I always felt kind of risky running it.

[-]

ranixon@reddit

I answered a comment about the Linux kernel and Torvalds

[-]

can_ichange_it_later@reddit

That argument could be made for graphene too.
It is an essential tool to certain sections of civil society (journalists, activists and such, even politicians. Armed forces maybe.)

[-]

WantonKerfuffle@reddit

Yeah, the USAian NOBUS (NObody BUt US [has access]) backdoors worked wonders... For the Chinese gov. Backdooring shit will always, ALWAYS come back to bite you.

[-]

jlobodroid@reddit

you have a point!

[-]

Silevence@reddit

imagine if we could get ol linux pops to endourse or collab with graphene.. what a wonderful world that would be.

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

This is also just France lol. At the end of the day this just hurts their citizens.

[-]

deanrihpee@reddit

not really because if a backdoor come through, i'm pretty sure every governing body would want a piece of that cake, because they want control

also have you seen other country that do the same thing? it is starting to become of a "norm", not just france

if you just accept it or shrug it off as "it just france and their citizens" before you know it, the whole Europe adopt it

[-]

Incalculas@reddit

there will never be a backdoor

the project is clearly created by people with certain opinions

they would rather shut down the project as an extreme measure than make a backdoor

this is the opinion I would hold for projects such as these unless proven otherwise

[-]

Unslaadahsil@reddit

As they should.

"Salt the earth" is a very valid response to being cornered. If I can't have my land (or my project) I sure as hell won't let you have it.

[-]

Electronic-Lynx-7840@reddit

Offer it over Tor. Break the fucking law before backdooring.

[-]

R_Active_783@reddit

In GOS words: Duress password

[-]

whatyouarereferring@reddit

In what world can France force a back door? You don't seem to understand what you are talking about

[-]

MidnightPale3220@reddit

They can take action on EU level, making it hard to host a project in Europe.

Like Denmark did with chat control -- essentially after their initial proposal was finally rejected, they modified it a bit and it's currently going through.

Chat control essentially would mean backdooring OS and I bet they'll require Google and Apple to do it.

[-]

mamaharu@reddit

The issue isn't really France or whether they can. It's that this can easily lead to requests (and action) from other countries, the eu, the us, etc. Privacy and anonymity is currently being attacked from all sides, and this is just one more added to the list.

[-]

mamaharu@reddit

If anyone reading this is in the US, keep an eye not only on the Fed, but what your local legislature is pushing. Censorship, Flock, VPN bans, Digital ID/age verification, etc. this year has been nasty across all states and will only continue to get worse.

[-]

Indolent_Bard@reddit

What's flock?

[-]

mamaharu@reddit

Flock Saftey is a private company who's keeping you safe™ via constant surveillance. Their ai/cameras are, rather stealthily, being installed all over the US.

[-]

Erdnusschokolade@reddit

A china like Public surveillance system around the US with very very poor operational security. There are a few Videos from Ben Jordan on youtube if you are interested.

[-]

Mawmag_Loves_Linux@reddit

Telegram founder just got detained for almost a week with no charges by French authorities a few months ago...

[-]

notenglishwobbly@reddit

In a world where France asking will soon turn into the EU asking.

That's a lot more difficult to ignore.

[-]

rocketeer8015@reddit

The problem is if every country demands their own backdoor to be added the software will be nothing but backdoors. I mean it doesn’t make much sense they share the same backdoor does it?

[-]

maigpy@reddit

you really don't know what you are talking about. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

[-]

deanrihpee@reddit

I am rather embarrassed by stupid shit i say than my government spying on me without my consent and being ignorant to the privacy problems that are currently under attack in almost every corner of the world

also at least a few people agree with my sentiment, otherwise i already have a negative vote that might prove your scrutiny about me not knowing what I'm talking about

[-]

potatisblask@reddit

This Linux you speak of, how big is it? And how tall?

[-]

djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit

13 millions lines of code.

Let's see... If printed at 12pt (~4.23mm) we get 4.23 * 13000000 = 5499000mm -> 5499 meters

So as tall as the janqo laya mountain in Peru https://www.andes-specialists.com/janqo-laya-5499/

[-]

potatisblask@reddit

That is tall. But for the sake of the environment I think it better be printed double sided.

[-]

djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit

The text height would still be the same.

[-]

TrekkiMonstr@reddit

I wonder now if jurisdictions have started pressuring common tools for a backdoor

[-]

deanrihpee@reddit

started? I wouldn't be so surprised if they already did, i mean most notably Chinese government, also UK asked Apple to put a backdoor or some kind of decryption tool and specifically tell Apple it is illegal to tell the public about it, luckily it was somehow leaked so people know about it and also luckily Apple didn't put the backdoor, but imagine how many backdoor has been planted without us knowing, even if they can't force it to a tool or software directly, they'll develop something anyway, especially from join operation between superpower that literally have zero day, zero click backdoor/spyware

[-]

FrankReynolds@reddit

while Linux, well... most of the "users" are servers

I think this is a bit reductionist and ignores how many IoT devices run Linux. The end-users of devices that run Linux are... end-users of the devices. The interaction with Linux is just transactional or masked behind a walled garden.

[-]

bamboob@reddit

*more smallerer

FTFY

[-]

BourbonProof@reddit

most of linux users are mobile phones and IoT devices running android, not servers

[-]

get_homebrewed@reddit

Except when he was asked that it not nearly that big

[-]

Practical_Read4234@reddit

Attacking linux would be absolutely insane. It's too big.

[-]

No-Professional8999@reddit

Even if something had happened, the kernel is open source so you know.. someone would have forked it, reversed that change and then that would have become the new major kernel people use and develop instead.. It's like these old farts do not understand how open source works.

[-]

Erdnusschokolade@reddit

Open Source makes it more likely to find vulnerabilities but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have any, or that they are always found quickly.

[-]

ScoobyGDSTi@reddit

So explain how Log4j and countless other open source projects had major security flaws for years upon years.

The reality is outside of the big Linux projects like the kernel, most code isn't scrutinised at all yet alone to a level comparable to what nation state actors are.

This notion of open source = more secure is pure fallacy.

[-]

Hot_Marsupial_813@reddit

Could you explain what you're saying about security and fallacy? Like what the precise fallacious statement is?

[-]

Erdnusschokolade@reddit

I only said its more likely to find vulnerabilities not that there aren’t any. With closed source you can only trust the publisher and hope for the best.

[-]

Froztnova@reddit

I mean, I wouldn't call it pure fallacy. It would be fallacious to say "security vulnerabilities don't exist in open source." It's not fallacious to say that they're more likely to be found as opposed to opaque binaries which can't be easily inspected unless you've got the source.

I mean in the case of commercial software Bob could just be ordered to put literal_backdoor() into the program and nobody would be the wiser without undergoing the tedious task of reverse engineering the thing. And that's without going into the soup of bizarre things that might not be intentionally malicious but which would be called out as bad practice if people could actually see it.

Point is, at least the security holes in open source programs are probably somewhat less obvious.

[-]

NYPuppy@reddit

That is very naive. It's not like the nsa submitted code with the title "backdoor please merge thank you tornalds and craig krooah heart." If security agencies merged backdoors, they would be subtle and hidden within useful code.

[-]

rocketeer8015@reddit

Still gambling that no one will read and understand your code. Linus flat out doesn’t merge code that he can’t read or considers too complicated for exactly this reason. Also only maintainers can include code and if you try this and get caught your no longer a maintainer.

[-]

EnGammalTraktor@reddit

Open source - yes ... mostly! It is also full of binary vendor blobs that are impossible to review.

Any one of these could contain a backdoor.

[-]

shponglespore@reddit

Stuff like Heartbleed makes it clear that a bug can be hiding in plain sight in critical code for years before anyone notices. A backdoor can be implemented as a bug, and it would probably be harder to spot because someone introducing a bug on purpose would take pains to make it hard to spot.

[-]

sigmoid_balance@reddit

He was asked to ban Russian kernel maintainers, did it and went on a tirade about everyone being a Russian bot when was asked about it.

[-]

fellipec@reddit

Well, them they asked Intel to add one in the CPU and we got IME.

[-]

unphath0mable@reddit

Who is "they"? Do you have any evidence to support this or are you just making baseless claims. By the way, I'm not defending Intel ME, but calling it a deliberate backdoor is hyperbolic.

[-]

fellipec@reddit

The same guys that asked Linus for a backdoor, of course. And if you think it is baseless, tell China their ban on Intel and AMD CPUs on government computers was over nothing.

[-]

m3xtre@reddit

bro you should just assume they have a backdoor into anything. You can't win against the world’s two super-powers in intelligence unless you're an intelligence officer for those countries yourself, and even then you're probably still not safe. don't be delusional

[-]

fellipec@reddit

Because they have a backdoor on everything.

FFS, even heart monitors in hospitals were caught having a backdoor!

Routers and network equipment are full of backdoors.

And no, we can't win against the 5 eyes, the Chinese and the Russians.

[-]

unphath0mable@reddit

Its entirely reasonable for China to want to secure itself from US supply chains. The US does the same with Chinese manufacturers (Both government and private industry). Hell, for this reason, at my company I'm not allowed to use any Lenovo products for work.

This isn't evidence that all Lenovo devices have a backdoor, although, I'm sure if Chinese intelligence agencies got wind that a foreign intelligence target in the US was ordering Lenovo products, they could interdict them and install a capability to facilitate initial access.

Likewise, the US government most definitely has the capabilities to do similar things. That does not mean that Intel Management was deliberately created as an enablement.

[-]

Charaqat@reddit

And china basically confirmed nvidia gpus have a hardware backdoor by asking about and banning them.

[-]

axonxorz@reddit

Minix's greatest achievement.

[-]

S1rTerra@reddit

They didn't have to be so obvious about it either. Full unrestricted internet access with it's own mac address that you can't access that you can literally just find information about on wikipedia? Why not

[-]

featherknife@reddit

with its* own

[-]

S1rTerra@reddit

Thanks. I'll be jerking off to this message.

[-]

EngineerTrue5658@reddit

But when the Telegram CEO said no to a backdoor, they kidnapped him and interrogation him until he complied.

[-]

hymnsofhim@reddit

He didn’t backdoor anything nor did they ask for a backdoor, they asked for higher compliance which he claimed he always did (as was correct, they always gave data)

[-]

Sileniced@reddit

there already is a backdoor in Intel and AMD processors and ARM has it too... so linux doesn't need to be backdoored

[-]

unphath0mable@reddit

This is unfounded conspiracy nonsense. Do I like Intel ME? Absolutely not. Do I think it should be removed from consumer devices? Absolutely. Is it a security risk? Probably. Is it a deliberate backdoor? There is no evidence to suggest this is the case.

[-]

_Giffoni_@reddit

you sweet summer child

[-]

EnGammalTraktor@reddit

Source?

[-]

ChocolateDonut36@reddit

linus' dad

[-]

EnGammalTraktor@reddit

Nils only states that Linus had been approched by a government agency. What the result was is not mentioned. Thanks for the clip though, a nice piece of contemporary history!

[-]

ScoobyGDSTi@reddit

Because the NSA and their ilk had no problem finding a plethora of exploits to achieve the same.

[-]

meutzitzu@reddit

Nothing happened because Shuttleworth agreed to add a backdoor in Ubuntu and the powers that be were satisfied with having control over 90% of what already is a minority.

For people using Arch or similar distros they can just call Intel and use their hardware backdoor.

And they can always just "disappear" the libreboot users if they end up causing trouble since they're so few and far between no-one would notice some of them being gone over the statistical exoectsncy for disappearing persons.

[-]

qubedView@reddit

He should have laughed and added a ‘GOVERNMENT_BACKDOOR’ build flag.

[-]

kryptoneat@reddit

This is not at all what I remember (from his conference where he said he didnt while nodding yes).

[-]

Bulkybear2@reddit

He was asked if he was approached about adding a backdoor into Linux. Not if he did it or not. If he did it would’ve been spotted and the world would’ve gone nuts because it’s open source.

[-]

kryptoneat@reddit

No, not all backdoors are obvious.

[-]

x54675788@reddit

How do you know about the last part of your sentence? After all, a backdoor can just be an "accidental bug that allows full system compromise perhaps through sandbox or Kernel permission escape" and we've had loads of these

[-]

ChocolateDonut36@reddit

there's a difference between accidental backdoors that happens due to logic issues and backdoors intentionally made for gov agencies.

I was talking about the second kind.

[-]

x54675788@reddit

There's no practical difference in the end result and you can't tell which is which

[-]

ChocolateDonut36@reddit

but one thing is for sure, torvalds denied the offer, and one thing is for sure, if there are backdoors they will be fixed as soon as they're discovered.

[-]

RizzKiller@reddit

Pretty sure he added a backdoor

[-]

ChocolateDonut36@reddit

source code is public btw

[-]

RizzKiller@reddit

Doesn't matter if it is public, someone with the knowledge of linus can do this. Think about it, they know it is public too and still asked. For me that mean that there could be ways how to hide it while implementing it over multiple components so it works together as backdoor but doesn't appear to be pne in the first place. If someone is able to do that, then linus

[-]

elperuvian@reddit

It’s too massive, no single human understands it fully. It’s likely some back door could get in

[-]

Felt389@reddit

💀

[-]

elperuvian@reddit

It goes beyond what torvalds would want. I’m pretty confident the cia/nsa has managed to introduce backdoors. They are just good at their jobs

[-]

OkGap7226@reddit

That was then. Things have changed.

[-]

mouarflenoob@reddit

Guys, if y'all keep pretending it's a France problem you are in for a pull from reality. Virtually Every single country in the world wants to spy on it's citizen. It's not that Linux or encryption is not safe in France, it's that it will never be safe anywhere, only tolerated as long as nothing like a terrorist using signal or tails happens.

[-]

ElectricalWind5807@reddit

Feel sorry for France. Won't be long before every govt. starts asking for a back door.

[-]

SpartacGuy@reddit

backdoors are only for NSA

[-]

fellipec@reddit

Remembers me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gRsgkdfYJ8

Anyway, I'm saying for some time that the governments with big tech will force us into an Orwellian nightmare. They are taking example from China.

Things like TPM and Secure Boot will be used to force users to keep the original OS of their computers as an excuse of "not tampering" or any other ridiculous excuse, and if we happen to disable or hack it, things like WEI will prevent users from doing most of the useful things online.

That shiny new ARM laptop? Yeah it will only install the OS provided by the OEM, no efforts will be made to standardize anything to allow any OS go in. The OEM will make sure to add backdoors and lock bootloaders just like in phones. The x64 machine? Well if you don't use the images signed and backdoored, checked with SB and TPM, no access to anything government can rule on. They already did the first step with age requirements. Making it tied to a "secure" hardware is just a small logical next step.

The freedom and privacy are coming to an end. With so many powerful and rich countries working together towards such goals, it seems inevitable. Yes, I'm in a bad mood today and yes, Stallman was right.

[-]

sigmoid_balance@reddit

They don't need to do this. They can just request an attestation chain that includes a "harmonious" OS image for you to be able to access your bank or government services.

[-]

perkited@reddit

Any institutions that desire power/wealth/influence/control (governments, corporations, religions, etc.) will never give up trying to gain what they desire. That's why we should be calling it out when it happens, irrespective of who's doing it.

[-]

billwood09@reddit

We have had TPM and Secure Boot for like a decade and anyone can install the OS they want, as long as it is compiled for the CPU architecture…

[-]

Low_Direction1774@reddit

Yes, just like any bankruptcy, it happens very slowly and then suddenly all at once. Just like TPM was just a nice cool feature for added security but now you cant use windows without it anymore unless youre jumping through hoops.

Just like a Microsoft Account was a cool feature to sync settings and files across multiple devices and now you cant use Windows without it anymore unless youre jumping through hoops.

Just like streaming services were a cool alternative to buying movies but now you cant actually BUY and OWN them anymore since a lot of movies are streaming only releases wihtout a physical copy.

Speaking of pyhsical copies; Blu-Ray DRMs were just a cool little feature to prevent IP theft, now it can be used to specifically prevent you from playing the media you bought on all devices.

You can do this *right now* but thats not a guarantee that it will stay like this forever.

[-]

bekopharm@reddit

Every modern smartphone nowadays has some sort of crypto chip to help the user to secure their password vaults stored on the devices so that this data is useless when copied to another system and nobody questions these.

This is one of the best features when it comes to TPM.

This chip does not magically run any custom code. It can't do so by design. It can not control what you boot on itself at all. The only thing it can do is run checksums, de- or encrypt and provide signatures for data streans sent to it. What is done with this is up to EFI and later the system using it.

This is a good thing _especially_ for Windows users, that usually don't bother anyway where and how their credentials are stored on their system. It's like an enforced secure password manager and this is GOOD for the Average Joe.

Can this be abused to identify your hardware with a unique ID remotely? YES. Remote attestation is one of it's core features. Can they enforce this? NO. The chip itself can not report anything to anyone on it's own. It's designed to be dumb on purpose. There must be a system service running to forward the collected checksums. Will Microsoft make it hard to intercept this and abuse the checksums for their user profiling? Hell YES. Alas tbf if privacy is the concern this is the wrong system to begin with.

Your other ramblings have nothing to do with TPM per se. I get your sentiments on DRM and I guess you mean Always Online with the accounts thing but that is really a different beast to tackle.

That's all no concern in Linux land where people use this for it's intended purpose (if at all). Like sealing an encrypted partition against the TPM (just what Bitlocker did for years), hardening embedded systems or just sign messages with it.

This is coming from someone who protested against TCPA back in the days (and I'm glad we did so). TPM is a good compromise as a result. Your concerns are Windows (OT for r/linux), DRM and most important: **UEFI**. Full ACK that we have to keep an eye on this one though (and keep buying systems where this can be disabled as an option). TPM doesn't require secure boot to function. It has no concept of what a secure boot is on itself. And this is how we wanted it.

[-]

deanrihpee@reddit

slow boiling of frog seems really work huh?

[-]

No_Condition_4681@reddit

The common of the people are no more intelligent than a frong actually.

[-]

deanrihpee@reddit

really unfortunate

[-]

No_Condition_4681@reddit

Wait a decade more maybe.

[-]

Existing-Tough-6517@reddit

Not on all computers. Building the capability allows one day to merely flick a switch and disable alternatives for "security"

[-]

fellipec@reddit

We can do it yet.

[-]

No_Condition_4681@reddit

I already talked about this with some people... No one took me serious.

[-]

Pikachamp1@reddit

Yes, Linux developers will be safe in France, this conflict woulb be more of a distro issue than a kernel issue anyways. To my understanding, GrapheneOS developers are perfectly safe in France, too, just the project's infrastructure and reputation is not.

[-]

Cracklatron@reddit

Well France created and spread malware just a few years ago to cyber attack a legal company and their users because they were selling phones with encryptions and refused to create a backdoor

At the end of January 2020, a judge in Lille, France, authorised the infiltration of the EncroChat servers.[26] Intelligence and technical collaboration between the NCA, the National Gendarmerie and Dutch police culminated in gaining access to messages after the National Gendarmerie put a "technical tool" on EncroChat's servers in France.[23][25][1] The malware allowed them to read messages before they were sent and record lock screen passwords. Messages could be read by law enforcement beginning in April

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat

France is really fucked up when it comes to those things, the fact that they infected foreign people across Europe outside of their jurisdiction with malware just because they were using perfectly legal encrypted phones is really distopyian

[-]

Pikachamp1@reddit

Yes, it's really fucked up to see European countries that pride themselves with being democracies, following the rule of law and freedom for citizens behave like they are an authoritarian state. Governments seem to be implementing more and more measures of mass surveillance and even if they would really do it for the reason they claim (hunting criminals) it'd be really bad because they're eroding privacy and freedom out of laziness or an unwillingness to properly fund and educate the police. If they actually ramp up surveillance to make it easier to control the people and stay in power, that'd be an dystopian nightmare.

[-]

Greendiamond_16@reddit

Release the distro under the name "The version that lets France spy on you"

[-]

BadGoodNotBad@reddit

Baguette.2025

[-]

ult_avatar@reddit

Which is kind of silly since Debian is hugely supported by the french and AFAIK is not being attacked in the same way..

[-]

SouthEastSmith@reddit

Why would you assume any of that?

[-]

Pikachamp1@reddit

What do you suppose I'm assuming? I've had a look at what France is going after and what the GrapheneOS project's account had to say on Mastodon about it. I've summarised what's happening with a focus on developer safety (as that's what OP is concerned about).

[-]

SouthEastSmith@reddit

If a developer has access to something that a govt wants, then the govt can lean on the developer to hand over his access rights or add backdoors to the code he is working on.

[-]

Pikachamp1@reddit

Please cite the laws you are referring to and reason about why they would be applicable to a developer contributing to GrapheneOS if you want to go down that route.

[-]

SubjectiveMouse@reddit

Telegram CEO would like a word with these so-called "laws" in "France"

[-]

dumpaccount882212@reddit

Making it obvious to everyone else that that developer isn't trusted.

Its the beauty of FOSS - you can't sneak shit in. And the bus factor is too high so getting one is useless.

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

France is an IT shithole because of the government and related laws.

Here is my own experience: VPN are basically shadow banned there. I had to stop a free WiFi project because of the chance of landing in jail for not logging everything and for encrypting the related tunnels toward the common gateway because of idiotic anti terrorism laws. Even an unencrypted tunnel is illegal in such a setup because for them, any form of encapsulation beyond normal Layer 3 = cryptography.

Do not host any services or buy/rent servers or cloud there. You are exposing yourself to jail time if you do not give access or have the required logs on request. Said request can happen without a court order because of tErRoRiSm.

What a fall of grace from a country that at one point has invented and ran its own "internet'.

It even goes further into real life once you are touching a big sum of money in a sale, contract etc because again: tErRoRiSm

Seriously drop them out of the global network together with all the dictatorships. Period. I do not support mass surveillance in any form.

[-]

_eLRIC@reddit

What makes you think VPN are shadow banned ? (I can state that various anonymous VPN are properly working, including on the state sponsored telco provider)

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

I just gave the reason why? They will force access beyond reasons if you run a VPN service, no matter if you are within or outside their territory. If you can access said VPN from within France they will try to get access by any means they see necessary and you're screwed if you work, live or have infrastructure there in this situation

There is a reason why no one is hosting VPN servers in France, and the VPN companies are putting a lot of legal work for being safe even if they are registered outside of France, hence why location is sooo important.

So yes I did pull out the project out of France because having physical devices (AP/router) there would had land me and others into hot water.

[-]

SOUINnnn@reddit

Mullvad has vpn servers in France?

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

I just checked and i must say it surprises me. I don't know how they dont have an issue with said laws. So until something changes I'm unaware of...

What I couldn't find out is if the exit also happens in France or if the traffic is routed internally elsewhere.

Those I did frequent in the past and the one I'm using right now avoid France for this reason, even sometimes giving feedback within their forum because of this why they avoid country xy.

Well at the same time most do host in the USA which is even more a nightmare in the matter...

[-]

SOUINnnn@reddit

Fairly sure the exit nodes are in France, since I used them to watch sport matches on an app that were region locked to France

[-]

_eLRIC@reddit

Indeed they are. I use them everyday, therefore my initial question ...

[-]

georgesclemenceau@reddit

"There is a reason why no one is hosting VPN servers in France" most VPN providers have servers in France. But I agree that it is a bad idea to launch a VPN company in France as it would imply you have to log

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

I know plenty that do not for this very reason, so idk how the rest can live with it since they need to comply. (Especially Mullvad which for now can be counted as trustworthy).

A possibility would be to have the exit elsewhere but it would be the same issue I had about where the entry into your network still is and I resigned from trying out.

So it comes down to some loophole in the laws or they are complying.

The problem is if you refuse compliance or do not have the logs you get imprisoned even if you're behind a company form that is its own entity. The founder of Telegram recently experienced it for another context.

[-]

georgesclemenceau@reddit

"So it comes down to some loophole in the laws or they are complying." It is just that they are not personnaly in France, and that their company is not in France

[-]

i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit

There is a reason why no one is hosting VPN servers in France,

PIA has a french server available, but I can't speak to any others.

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

I checked early on some major ones and it seems some have servers in France.

How they can live with it idk, at the same time the USA is a similar nightmare in general (depends on state to state basis).

What i couldn't find out is if they route the traffic internally to exist outside of France or not.

Seems a gamble to me because France does not refrain from even imprisoning the CEO of tech companies refusing compliance (for example last year the Telegram founder).

[-]

TheSpazeCommando@reddit

No VPN are not shadow ban and user are more and more pushed to use them when on unsecure (public) network. The Law or rules you a referring is that you are responsible for all the activity outcoming from a device you own. So if you dont provide proof that you system is used only for legal activities yes you can be pursue.

Most compagny, providers and administration must follow rules from the CNIL and ANSSI to secure their IT infra.

For GrafeneOS issue, it's not related to network or surveillance but access to the device data by autorities when you are under arrest and suspected of criminal activities. None of these rules to access private data are good, but currently France is far from being the bad guy, but also not close to the best privacy one (if any country is...)

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

Yeah and as an infrastructure being responsible for those activities in a scenario where encryption is applied is nonsense and not possible. The CNIL and ANSSI can stick their mass surveillance bullcrap up.

Encrypted traffic? Broken. Encrypted files? Also broken. How can you know as a provider whatever a file or transfer contains without breaching intos someones privacy? That simple: you can't. As per logic it's a shadow ban if you do not support surveillance without evidence.

They will absolutely wreck you WITHOUT a court order if they see it fit for whatever reason. That is very much a surveillance and in the case of France, borderline totalitarian state.

Nothing against going the way through an actual court/judge after an actual investigation happened and evidence exist that a bad third party is using your services.

If France want to copy pasta the gestapo and stasi, they can do it without me. I stand on the ground with the innocent until proven guilty.

How would you feel for cops entering your place of living because you technically could, eventually, just maybe do something illegal?

[-]

TheSpazeCommando@reddit

You mismatch CNIL and ANSSI with the Gendarmerie that investigate on cyber criminals. How can they do mass surveillance by being just auditing entity that provide process to secure your infra and pursue compagny that did personal data security breach ? Just read there fucking website to understand their work. Do you realy know cybersecurity or you just want to complain again a specific country that follow the same rules as any other one ? Go see country where compagny data encryption is forbiden by the governement unless you have keys provided by them, you will find China and Russia but not any european country. Ask your Internet provider, your mail provider, or any service you use want rules they comply with based on your country, they all follow worldwide stardarts and will log any activities as this is BASIC CYBERSECURITY. Go look at any auditing process for service provider and prepare yourself for a lot to read, and again this isnt french specific but European or Worldwide compliance.

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

I'm not talking about basic Cybersecurity or companies fucking up.

Again nothing against auditing if an actual investigation took place, proving that a bad third party is using your service and the Gendarmerie wants to get additional proof.

If a prosecutor is showing me that said bad third party fucked up with the help of my services I'm more then willing to comply.

Again the laws as for now do not require any proof of sort and sometimes even bypass the judicative system by calling for example in a terrorist threat, allowing the Gendarmerie to handle this on their own without oversight.

Again you can get in trouble for using certain technology.

Again you are getting in trouble if on request you don't have logs which are not needed for everyday business use and cost you money to manage and save long-term.

[-]

_eLRIC@reddit

While I totally agree that we need to fight far more to preserve our digital right for privacy, your examples are not well chosen. The case is serious enough to stick to facts.

[-]

djao@reddit

if you dont provide proof that you system is used only for legal activities yes you can be pursue.

In other words, you have to prove your innocence. Guilty until proven innocent. Hard pass.

[-]

_eLRIC@reddit

The same as if tour car is involved in a car accident : you have to prove that you were not the one driving it (you may have a police report if stolen, a witness, etc) I agree that's lame if you want to run tor nodes ... But it is misleading to write you can't use and run a VPN (which I do for myself and trusted family)

[-]

djao@reddit

You're conflating civil and criminal liability. If your car is involved in an accident, you are presumed civilly liable, but criminal liability requires proof of guilt rather than lack of proof of innocence.

[-]

_eLRIC@reddit

Seems right (IANAL) and still applicable to the use of a VPN as a person.

[-]

djao@reddit

OP is very clearly talking about "arrest" and "criminal activities" (direct quotes). Your example, which deals only with civil liability, is not at all applicable.

[-]

_eLRIC@reddit

Fair enough. Still, OP is clearly exagerating as such behavior (arrest without proof or warrant) has yet to come, and must be fought to prevent it from happening

[-]

Redacted_usr@reddit

Yes that’s ridiculous

[-]

echoAnother@reddit

Wait, if I assimilate all consumer routers into a botnet, can I make all france be in jail?

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

That something a lawyer need to answer and I'm certainly not one but as I see it: yes. If you cant provide logs (it's not like you cant delete or falsify those) that a third party did it you are liable.

You accidentally described an attack vector to put blame on someone: the good old "put weed into his pocket and call the cops on him". I wouldn't like to be any kind of political opposition or human right activist and live there right now, because even if its not France itself, someone else can totally abuse those laws against you.

[-]

parosyn@reddit

Could you give us a légifrance link to the specific law that says that ?

[-]

fordry@reddit

But most of Reddit tells me these socialist nations are fantastic and the US is the one with the big issues...

[-]

srodrigoDev@reddit

We don't need to walk around with a gun.

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

We still have in Europe better laws and rights in general. It doesn't mean we are free of issues.

Its more about the conservative and fascist with the ultra rich worldwide pushing for control on us the peasants.

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

Not a single person is being extradited to France over this. Don't be a fear mongerer.

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

"I never saw someone getting hit by lightning, so it must be a myth".

The laws for it are there. Play with fire if you want.

[-]

lmarcantonio@reddit

I would like to see their response to a full IPSEC site-to-site tunnel, then!

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

Yo you have ALL the logs? Oh and here is my SSH key, put it into your root access. Oh I didn't say please, I said do it now: you have to comply or you go for the next 2 years in prison without a judgement (then human rights apply), maybe longer if we find out you are just maybe, eventually, or could be a terrorist (then you suddenly are not a human anymore).

That's how I see it if a french prosecutor get any interest in your IPSEC tunnel. France justice system also loves to put massive fines on you beside the verdict (here for non compliance and not logging), meaning even longer prison time and/or lifelong debt (and further consequences for the company).

[-]

836624@reddit

you can still be extradited on their request

Not with my passport I can't.

[-]

gbrennon@reddit

Wtf????

That county just thinks that it can enforce something that is not aligned with freedom?

[-]

rsemauck@reddit

I'm ashamed to be French and of my governments actions... Unfortunately, it seems that in the past few years more and more people across the world have that feeling.

The French government likes to highlight it's motto of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity yet acts against the first word. They like to insist on the human's right but do not hesitate to trample them because of their stupidity and incompetence.

[-]

Think_Judge2685@reddit

How would a backdoor for open source and open development software even work? Wouldn't it be trivial to just instantly fork and remove any nefarious code introduced anyway?

[-]

fellipec@reddit

Let people trust you, add a blob that you claim is just for testing but includes the malicious payload. Just hope nobody notices that the SSH login gets a fraction of a second slower.

[-]

Crimento@reddit

Nice reference to xzutils backdoor

[-]

fsckit@reddit

ken wrote a paper on it in 1984(the year, not the book).

It's called Reflections on Trusting Trust.

[-]

Joe-Admin@reddit

Trusting trust involve compromising the compiler and I'm pretty sure grapheneOS don't use they're own customized compiler

[-]

fsckit@reddit

The point I'm trying to make is that there are ways round this:

Wouldn't it be trivial to just instantly fork and remove any nefarious code introduced anyway?

and ken's paper describes one of them.

[-]

nikola_tesler@reddit

any independent info?

[-]

ZamiGami@reddit

Compromising the rest of the world for the sake of a single country shouldn't be acceptable, specially for the sake of france

[-]

Superb-Marketing-453@reddit

Would that mean that e/OS accepted?

[-]

Sjoerd93@reddit

No, there’s no confirmation (not from Graphene either) that they have been requested to build in a backdoor. This could very well be about French justice system demanding to release e.g. IP addresses or information they have about “customers”. This is what happened with Telegram as well.

GrapheneOS is used a lot by organized crime (really a lot), and is obviously a huge focus for law enforcement. This is not the case for e/OS, so I honestly doubt that they got the same pressure from authorities.

[-]

LNDF@reddit

We need to remove France:

sudo rm -rf /

[-]

barkwahlberg@reddit

That would just remove /

[-]

Teknikal_Domain@reddit

r/woooosh

[-]

lastethere@reddit

Based on other comments, the title is misleading and the news is fake, so use your scissor where it is needed. A mistake must not be reproduced.

[-]

BravestCheetah@reddit

its not from what i know? Arch linux wouldnt ping everyone in their discord for some false news

[-]

ric2b@reddit

I always do this to remove the french language pack, I don't know why every distro includes it.

[-]

cantbelieveitsnotmud@reddit

As they say in the tweet they are being grouped with other certain companies which makes them a target. Those other companies are funded by criminal organizations to build an uncrackable phone and uncrackable infrastructure, completely untrackable so they can use it for crime. They offer so-called cryptophones, which used to be old modded blackberries running custom ping servers, nowadays they use android. All these companies have been taken down before and the messages have been decrypted because they rolled their own encryption, or did stupid things like storing everyone’s private key serverside. What is happening know is that France has apparently recognized grapheneOS as a provider of such cryptophone services, which is troublesome.

[-]

EcstaticUsual2883@reddit

Genuinely what would be the point of using graphene os if governments gonna have a backdoor to see everything you do there

[-]

Houston_NeverMind@reddit

Both France and Germany, who I thought were the good guys post-ww2, have disappointed me in the past few years.

[-]

adversecurrent@reddit

Good guys post ww2? Methinks you need to read more history texts.

[-]

Houston_NeverMind@reddit

Yeah I guess so

[-]

viper4011@reddit

No such thing as good guys when money talks it seems.

[-]

k0rben_@reddit

Reality has already surpassed Orwell's fiction 1984 in France for several years already, I live there, I know what I'm saying

[-]

tjijntje@reddit

With what the EU is doing in favor of linux I think we will be fine

[-]

sayqm@reddit

There was an article in newspaper, that's it. No "state actions" officially

[-]

Spez-is-dick-sucker@reddit

Its always france.

[-]

SoupoIait@reddit

Feels more like a global thing. It's the Danish and half of the EU that pushed for Chat Control. It's the UK that enforced age verification.

[-]

InvisibleTextArea@reddit

and Wisconsin banned VPNs.

[-]

derperofworlds1@reddit

Half of employers use vpns, but I guess Wisconsin doesn't have tech jobs so they could do that??

[-]

reddittookmyuser@reddit

How many use their corporate VPN to browse for porn? I get the law is a dangerous slippery slope but it's not blanket banning VPNs let alone corporate VPNs.

[-]

derperofworlds1@reddit

I mean that technologically, a VPN used to access porn IS the same as a VPN used to access HQ's network in another country.

A law that is not technologically feasible to implement is a bad law.

[-]

reddittookmyuser@reddit

It's pretty feasible to implement. Many sites willingly block clients using VPNs for example many video streaming services, banking, etc. Porn sites can do the same and this wouldn't prevent people from using corporate VPNs or regular privacy focused VPNs to browse non porn sites. I don't support the Wisconsin law or age verification in general but to say this particular law bans VPNs is incorrect.

[-]

derperofworlds1@reddit

There's the problem. It must be implemented on the server (streamer or porn site) side.

So the eastern European porn sites would take over the industry, and our local businesses will be left holding the bag since they must comply or be sued.

But if the law's point is to stop people from viewing porn, it is a failure since users will just go to sketchier overseas sites.

We lose domestic business, expose users of porn to more virus/worm/hacking risk, and it doesn't even achieve the stated goal (pearl clutching puritanism).

[-]

reddittookmyuser@reddit

Not disputing any of your points, all valid criticisms of the law. I'm not a fan of the law, age verification, banning porn, etc. I'm just saying it's not a ban on VPN's.

[-]

Evantaur@reddit

So they made site to site illegal?

[-]

InvisibleTextArea@reddit

The proposed bills, known as Assembly Bill 105 (AB 105) and Senate Bill 130 (SB 130), aim to require adult websites to implement age verification systems and block access to users connecting through Virtual Private Networks (VPNs). This legislation has already passed the State Assembly and is currently under consideration in the Senate.

The problem is the way the law is written is so vague that no one knows what it applies to.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/11/lawmakers-want-ban-vpns-and-they-have-no-idea-what-theyre-doing

[-]

OiledUpThug@reddit

So it's not even passed and it just tells websites to not allow vpns?
With all its flaws, why do people pretend like American censorship is anywhere near as bad as Europe's.
You don't have to make something up, there's enough examples in any other area

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

They have not. Please be accurate to reality and not a fear monger.

[-]

jerrydberry@reddit

So if some quite democratic counties are doing this, it looks like either:

majority also support it and want to sacrifice their privacy for some promises safety (voters are dumb)
majority has no idea what it all means and just ignores it (voters are dumb)
majority is against it but Europe has way less democracy than advertised.

What does it actually look like in Europe from the European perspective? I just can't wrap my head around this happening with so little opposition from the population.

[-]

aeltheos@reddit

I'll speak for France since that is the country I am familiar with.

Political landscape is in a weird spot due to no clear majority and most parties not standing each others.

"Security" is a major concern in political debate for center-right to far-right parties

[-]

burnerburner23094812@reddit

It's 3, for the most part. If enough major political parties want a certain thing it doesn't matter who you vote for because there aren't enough realistic candidates you an elect who will oppose this stuff.

There's an element of 2 as well, in the sense that most people don't entirely see what is happening in a systematic way -- but it's not like a majority of Europeans are secret puritans or *want* to live in a surveillance state, but it's not "voters are dumb" it's the fact that the actions of government are deliberately not being properly communicated and meaningful political representation is not occurring.

Swiss style direct democracy isn't a perfect system either but it does at least put a few more basic checks on government overreach.

[-]

oln@reddit

One would maybe hope Swiss direct democracy would put a brake on this but the Swiss have voted favour of more surveillance in the past and are now making their laws worse yet again so it doesn't seem like they're all that much better than other European countries.

Ultimately people are more swayed by bs arguments about crime and protecting children and immigrants or whatever than privacy concerns I guess.

[-]

jerrydberry@reddit

Just to clarify that I am not saying Europe is bad in any way. I see it everywhere and was curious about this specific case once it popped up in reddit feed.

I see a lot of (2) in some other parts of the world regarding many bad laws or elections.

[-]

Tomycj@reddit

how many people are in favor has little to do with it being democratic or not. If 99% is in favor of violating people's fundamental rights, it's still antidemocratic.

Democracy is much more than "people vote on stuff". It comes with a series of values, that people may be losing.

[-]

i_h8_yellow_mustard@reddit

majority is against it but Europe has way less democracy than advertised.

Ding ding ding.

"Democracy" is shortform for "the west does it" in this context. When both North Korea and Canada see themselves as democratic, then the word has ceased to mean anything at all.

[-]

hendrix-copperfield@reddit

For Germany I can tell you that most people have no clue about 99% of the things the European parliament and the European governance is doing or trying to do.

And even if you tell them, most people wouldn't care.

[-]

dumpaccount882212@reddit

You can imagine the feeling here (Sweden) - the people who get elected for EU stuff are basically randoms. Folks just either send of some jokey alternative, or just vote for whatever party ticket they use in national elections.

For a country with a high level of election participation the EU elections are joke (about 51% bother voting). Hell in some districts there similar level of voters for the national church election than the EU election

And on a national level there is a tendency for politicians to go "well Brussels told us to" if they have to do something unpopular (ignoring the mention that they can block it) making the sensation generally to be that the EU is something controlled by Germany, France, Poland, Italy and Spain since the population gap is so wide.

Personally (from my perspective) I think the wisest thing to do is to communicate the issue, kindly educationally and carefully with local politicians to bring about a block high up in our respective countries so at least the larger parties in the EU election will get their marching orders from local governments.

[-]

jerrydberry@reddit

I am from a country where it was very common/popular to not care about politics and mind your own business, as getting active about politics was considered a compensation for not being happy/busy enough in the "real" life. Well, that did not turn out well.

[-]

psylomatika@reddit

We did not get to vote on it.

[-]

jerrydberry@reddit

People do not vote for individual laws/initiatives, but people vote for their representatives in legislature. If legislators do this they are probably thinking that people will vote for them (legislators) once again, a.k.a people support it.

[-]

spreetin@reddit

Media in general doesn't consider privacy for citizens important enough to report much on, and as such the politicians are never made to answer for stuff like this. No party announces themselves to be against privacy either, most of them will abolish it if they think they can get away with it though.

On top of this many of the worst ideas are pushed through the EU, then all national politicians can just claim that their hands are forced, and since most people have little idea what happens in the EU and media won't make then answer for how they supported this stuff "up there"...

And then again it's also lack of knowledge among voters and dishonesty from politicians. Like the proposed ban on private communication, they want to push it as a vote for or against pedophilia, while also claiming that all communication by innocent parties will still be safe, since they will decide that only "good guys" are allowed to spy on the citizens.

[-]

jerrydberry@reddit

Got it. Very unfortunate. Government abuses lack of education and the laziness to learn, which present in people by default, as well as people being concerned about safety.

People want to be safe and for kids to be safe. People do not want to dive deep into technology and what they can do for the safety and blindly delegate that, trading some freedom away. It gets worse when actual implementation aside from taking freedom/privacy away also adds more risks than safety as backdoors and retained data then can be accesses by bad guys due to some bug in the system, mistake of authorized user or malicious intent of authorized user who can just sell the data.

[-]

dumpaccount882212@reddit

Its one of those core arguments for transparency and communication.

Our government here (Sweden) is both for and against - because locally being against but not having it as a hot-button issue means you can appease your voters while still not stopping something.
By also keeping it technically complex many people simply don't understand the core issue.

Like how Ylva Johansson (one of our disasters in the EU) claimed: it will be safe and private. When asked she argued that some very smart people could fix to make it so.
All the while organizations from civil rights groups to our military intelligence basically exploded at her since she was demanding something impossible, and planned to do it anyway.

Even the politicians in charge are uneducated on the topic! And in the EU its even worse since it has no protection/transparency against lobby organizations, meaning the whole damn place crawls with them.

And in the end - politicians can always go "so you're on the side of pedophiles?" and get away with this bullshit on a national level.

[-]

LvS@reddit

Same shit as everywhere: Fascists are exploiting the discontent of the general population by promising easy solutions and getting people to go along with it.

Not just with governments.
Same shit with AI.
Same shit with the services people use.
Same shit with open source software.

[-]

Kurgan_IT@reddit

It's a global thing for sure. Every government wants to have complete control over its subjects.

[-]

Tomycj@reddit

If people are demanding more government intervention in general, it's only natural that governments will get away with more intervention. There's a cultural demand for it in most places.

[-]

grathontolarsdatarod@reddit

A global fascist thing.

[-]

derangedtranssexual@reddit

No it’s just an EU thing, you’re not seeing that kinda thing in the US cuz Americans actually have a tech sector they don’t want to mess up

[-]

SoupoIait@reddit

I'm not informed enough on America to have an serious opinion, so if someone knows more do correct me.

From where I stand, USA has next to 0 privacy guidelines (regarding tech) already, so yeah they're not pushing for less privacy, since they already have all they want.

[-]

derangedtranssexual@reddit

There’s a big difference between not requiring companies to respect privacy and forcing companies to break encryption, this is euro cope

[-]

SoupoIait@reddit

I mean I'm really not sure the US is as inactive as you seem to think it is !

https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/03/five-eyes-governments-call-on-tech-giants-to-build-encryption-backdoors-or-else/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2025/02/27/us-govt-demands-millions-of-google-apple-and-meta-user-accounts/

[-]

derangedtranssexual@reddit

The first link is 7 years old and talking about how five eyes want governments to demand backdoors but in the 7 years since the US hasn’t done that. Your second article has nothing to do with encryption. At a certain point you’re just gonna have to admit the US is better than Europe when it comes to encryption (and most other things)

[-]

SoupoIait@reddit

You know what ? Fair enough ! On encryption, the US hasn't been as active as the EU. I grouped both encryption and privacy in a sort of mick-mash, which wasn't fair.

However, in regards to user privacy - which mostly is what worries me, and what encryption is about -, the US is miles behind EU regulation and action. Saying otherwise would honestly be just delusional at this point, and recent actions of the EU don't undo years of previous legislation.

[-]

lmarcantonio@reddit

Italy technically had put out the law (for something like 40 adult sites...) but it seem they didn't comply

[-]

NightOfTheLivingHam@reddit

remember, the WEF, which is the billionaires coming together to discuss how to keep the plebs in check, wanted this shit years ago and wanted to take away all ownership from anyone who isnt them and told us we will like it.

It's no mystery. The wealthy who control the EU want to crack the fuck down on european citizens as well.

[-]

ahrienby@reddit

If France hits the r/Fediverse, people might need to migrate to instances based in safer jurisdictions.

[-]

Spez-is-dick-sucker@reddit

Stupid danish were the ones that wanted to push chat control this time, but still fuck france, fuck denmark and fuck spez!!

[-]

Dry_Row_7050@reddit (OP)

It’s the EU as a whole. ProtectEU initiative includes mandatory hardware level backdoors, mandatory data retention, sanctions against ”illegal communication systems”

You can read it here

Dont let the red ”this doesn’t represent official EU opinion” text fool you. EU endorsed the recommendations and are preparing law proposals as we speak.

[-]

Scandiberian@reddit

What happened to financial privacy in the form of money laundering laws in the late 80s/early 90s

Are you trying to argue that privacy was a good thing in the first place? Are you the bitter child of some oligarch? Otherwise I don’t get why you’d even make that comparison.

[-]

AcridWings_11465@reddit

Unfortunately for the EU, the German constitution clearly protects the secrecy of communication and general backdoors are completely illegal. Even under the treaties themselves, this is likely to be illegal. The CJEU will strike it down, and if it doesn't, Germany will simply ignore it and break the single market.

[-]

ArdiMaster@reddit

Germany will simply ignore it and break the single market, and the constitutional court might go as far as asserting that the protection of fundamental rights at the EU level is insufficient

But the ECJ has already ruled that EU law supersedes national constitutions.

[-]

AcridWings_11465@reddit

The ECJ can make as many rulings as it wants, the ultimate authority responsible for fundamental rights in Germany is the Federal Constitutional Court, and it will only give the ECJ jurisdiction if it deems the EU-level fundamental rights to be on par with the German constitution.

[-]

forbiddenknowledg3@reddit

France, Britain, Germany. All totalitarian shitholes in 2025.

[-]

Swizzel-Stixx@reddit

I am surprised they let you have that username lol

[-]

SoupoIait@reddit

Why 😅?

[-]

Swizzel-Stixx@reddit

Spez is the ceo of reddit and he’s notoriously unpopular, but I’m sure that username would have been flagged as not allowed to reddit admins

[-]

fellipec@reddit

Based username

[-]

Spez-is-dick-sucker@reddit

Hello how are you? I hope you are fine

[-]

IAMPeteHinesAMA@reddit

I hope you are doing well ❤️

[-]

Adventurous_Log_6452@reddit

bro quickly forgot how the FBI wanted a backdoor to apple devies a few years ago. but the french bashing must go on i guess ./s

[-]

lmarcantonio@reddit

Or Hungary. There are people that actually ask for a for "ejecting" them

[-]

JamesLahey08@reddit

Uhh oh guys, france is upset. Anyways...

[-]

JamesLahey08@reddit

The freedom fry people? LMAO

[-]

borg_6s@reddit

Don't they have more important problems to deal with?

[-]

Truth-Does-Not-Exist@reddit

they are headquartered in france? pretty stupid to have privacy stuff headquartered in the EU when currently they are competing with china in terms of privacy and human rights

[-]

mb194dc@reddit

Only if they operate beyond the reach of nation state actors.

Which is totally possible if you look at archive and a lot of other websites out there...

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

This is strange. I just read over on another sub that only Republicans and the Right do shit like this, but France and the EU are hardly right-wing.

[-]

zeanox@reddit

EU is not the same as the US

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

EU doesn't have a Right?

[-]

billwood09@reddit

EU parliament is majority right of center and further now. Pretty much every EU country has a far-right party (like AfD in Germany) who is gaining steam with propaganda that makes people scared of the brown people (sound familiar?)

It’s happening.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

They're gaining footing but are not CURRENTLY in power. The Right in the EU aren't the side pushing the draconian laws we are speaking of here.

The funniest thing of all, to me, is seeing the Left calling for more Islamic immigration into the EU, when Islam will institute the most ultra-conservative version of government you've ever seen if it gets the majority.

[-]

billwood09@reddit

There is no Islamic political party with any weight in existence in the EU. I’m sick of this narrative because “omg Islam is taking over because I saw a woman in a headscarf!” apparently means to y’all that they somehow have political control, which is absolute nonsense.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

One, there isn't YET. The population grows as it is now, they will eventually take power. Two, it isn't women and children coming over. It's fighting-aged men. Three, while not every one of them is ultra-conservative, the vast majority are.

[-]

billwood09@reddit

I am an immigrant from the United States to Germany, a fighting age male.

By your logic, I am going to install ultra-MAGA evangelical Baptist “christianity” as the new German government, surpassing the evil that AfD would do.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

I think you're a drama queen if you left the United States for Germany over "economic turmoil and political instability," considering that Germany is going to be in far worse shape in the near future in both of those categories. I think you're a Leftist with TDS. I also doubt you're a Baptist or any sort of Christian.

I'm also a brown man (Mexican) living in the US, so asking me if something's fine because you're white would be fruitless.

The question isn't race, it's religion, and Islam is incompatible with the West. I've already stated my opinions previously: Islam, once instituted on a bigger scale in any nation, is far more conservative than anything Trump, Republicans, or Christianity could ever concoct. You all feign ignorance on this fact, but you know it's true.

I've said my piece on this. Downvote away, keepers of the Reddit echo chamber.

[-]

Fit_Flower_8982@reddit

Two, it isn't women and children coming over. It's fighting-aged men.

Wow, what a malicious, absurd, and out-of-line comment.

[-]

we_come_at_night@reddit

Oh really, then why do I always see women and children around, not only "fighting-age" men?

[-]

billwood09@reddit

This.

[-]

MelioraXI@reddit

We do but it’s hardly the majority.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

I think that was my point.

[-]

MelioraXI@reddit

Sounded like a statement but fair enough.

[-]

YFleiter@reddit

France hardly right wing??

France government is more and more leaning towards the right with every year. Every month.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

lol France is not right-wing. Nor is Germany, which will arrest you for simply criticizing their politicians on social media. Nor is the UK, which is really embracing the "child protection" laws, as is Australia (hardly anything close to right-wing).

[-]

HealthIndustryGoon@reddit

Nor is Germany, which will arrest you for simply criticizing their politicians on social media.

no one went to jail ever in germany for "simply criticizing", could you link me up?

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

Home skillet, not long ago someone on I believe X criticized a Green female politician for being fat. He was actually detained and investigated. 60 Minutes did a segment on all of this where the German politicians laughed about taking ppl's phones, claiming the detained individuals hated that more than fines.

Quit with the feigned ignorance.

[-]

HealthIndustryGoon@reddit

still no link tho. also: like it or not, insults and threats are illegal in germany and everyone knows it. you can criticize a politician all you want for their policies.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

Insults are illegal? Do you know how pathetic that is? I'd hate to be a part of a society where everyone is so thin-skinned that insulting anyone is a crime.

[-]

HealthIndustryGoon@reddit

yeah, has been this way since forever. keeps a modicum of decency in public discourse. so, you talked about people going to jail for "simply criticizing". still no link i see.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

So you force people to be decent to each other under penalty of fines or imprisonment? And this is okay with you?

[-]

HealthIndustryGoon@reddit

sure.

but anyway: care to finally link me to the case were someone was punished for "just criticizing"?

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

So, to reiterate, you're okay with forcing people to hold their tongues, negating freedom of speech? And you believe this is better than how the United States handles free speech?

Fascinating.

[-]

HealthIndustryGoon@reddit

yeah, it's better. freedom of speech here has the same restrictions as the US PLUS insults and glorification of nazis. libel also does not have to be damaging economically to be considered libel.

everything else is permitted.

nothing is won if some mouthbreather is allowed to "criticize" a politician by calling them a fat cow or something similar moronic publicly.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

If you believe restricting someone's right to insult someone is a glorious thing, you are lost.

Someone might insult me, but I'm glad they have the right to do so, regardless of muh fee-fees. Politicians are just as human as you or I, and shouldn't be held on a pedestal or treated in any special way. Most of the time, they are worse human beings than the average working man could ever aspire to be.

[-]

HealthIndustryGoon@reddit

Politicians are just as human as you or I, and shouldn't be held on a pedestal or treated in any special way. Most of the time, they are worse human beings than the average working man could ever aspire to be.

sure, but the law is not limited to politicians.

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

Have you missed the 26% of Germany voting for the AfD and the French voting even more for Lepen on their respective national elections?

[-]

Shin_n_n@reddit

Well srr the 26% are not sitting in the bundestag and arresting people for repost/post that criticise some politicians for their stupidity. Thats actually what the other "anti right" politicians are doing rgn.

[-]

david_ancalagon@reddit

Is the AfD in the majority? Are they the ones arresting ppl for social media posts?

The answer is no.

[-]

InternetD_90s@reddit

You don't need a majority for a democracy to start falling apart. You're blind of what is happening in the Bundestag right now and the real life implications it has on the population.

We are evicting immigrants with working permits to fulfill quotas. People are getting sued for fact checking or joking about politicians.

I wont go deeper as it is out of topic, I think the hints are enough.

[-]

EdgiiLord@reddit

Happens with most governments abiding to neoliberal policies.

[-]

redsteakraw@reddit

Well I heard the President of France is no stranger to backdoors ;-)

[-]

EnOeZ@reddit

Currently France is lead by a zombie government and president. Macron has less than 20% approval rate with about less than 8% are true Macronists.

Although he is technically the president of France, most of the French would gladly see him out and some even thinking of the guillotine with everything he has done against the French, even mutilating many of them during the gilets jaunes era.

Please accept the excuses of the French people. Hopefully this proposition against Democracy will go down the toilet in 2027 as soon as we get rid of this traitor.

[-]

cassaffousth@reddit

Why not put said backdoor and give users the option to close it?

[-]

erwan@reddit

"France" isn't doing anything, it's only news article criticizing GrapheneOS for being impossible to crack by the police, and they claims some officials making statements against it but I couldn't find which ones.

AFAIK there is no legal action being taken against GrapheneOS, it's all just words. They claim that "The French state is taking actions against GrapheneOS" but all they provide is news articles about how the police is annoyed by not being able to crack phones running it.

Yes it sucks that some journalists present that GrapheneOS as being problematic, and supposed that a good phone OS should be hackable by the police, but that doesn't make it a state attack.

[-]

Dry_Row_7050@reddit (OP)

A top French prosecutor is literally threatening them.

An interview with French cybercrime prosecutor Johanna Brousse implies potential legal action against the project:

"With this new tool, there is real legitimacy for a certain portion of users in the desire to protect their exchanges. The approach is therefore different. But that won't stop us from suing the publishers if links are discovered with a criminal organization and they don't cooperate with the law"

An interview with French cybercrime prosecutor Johanna Brousse implies potential legal action against the project:

"With this new tool, there is real legitimacy for a certain portion of users in the desire to protect their exchanges. The approach is therefore different. But that won't stop us from suing the publishers if links are discovered with a criminal organization and they don't cooperate with the law"

[-]

ismbks@reddit

There is absolutely nothing of substance in these articles. All of this started because of a dumb French newspaper.

I love GrapheneOS, I've used it and I recommend donating to it if you can, however the project's leader is a complete schizo, he attacks people on Twitter all the time and rejects all criticism towards GrapheneOS.

To me this just looks like another drama of his, they never had any operations in France to begin with. It's just a public website hosted on OVH. The worst that could happen is the French authorities ban the website or seize their servers. But it's all public and open source, I assume they have multiple backups and would just rehost elsewhere immediately.

[-]

erwan@reddit

"if links are discovered with a criminal organization and they don't cooperate with the law"

So she answered in an interview, with a lot of "ifs".

I understand them being cautious and moving their servers out of France, but saying "France is attacking" them just because one prosecutor talked about them in an interview with many conditionals is a bit... Overblown to say the least.

[-]

Tomycj@reddit

They certainly don't see it as something unimportant, if they're retiring from the country over this.

[-]

lastethere@reddit

So you are supporting criminal organizations? Stop insisting with a narrative based on false premises.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

You and the prosecutor (to less of a degree) are conflating "supporting criminal organizations" with "criminal organizations using GrapheneOS". So I'm going to conflate: "GrapheneOS not cooperate with the law" as "install backdoors".

Stop assuming that allowing police to invade a user's privacy is a good thing. That's the mindset of an "Authoritarian Follower".

[-]

erwan@reddit

You can think that police invading a user's privacy is bad, and at the same time recognize that the GrapheneOS team is making a big fuzz about pretty much nothing.

They claim being attacked by a whole country when all there is a news article with a prosecutor saying "if the right conditions are met it's possible that we sue" which doesn't mean anything that's wasn't already obvious.

We're not talking about any official action being taken. They haven't been subpoenaed or anything. No member of the government threatened them.

I honestly don't understand what's going on in the head of the GrapheneOS people.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

You can think that police invading a user's privacy is bad, and at the same time recognize that the GrapheneOS team is making a big fuzz about pretty much nothing.

But the previous poster asserted more, didn't they. They "asked": "So you are supporting criminal organizations? "

I honestly don't understand what's going on in the head of the GrapheneOS people.

When working on a FOSS project exposes you to serious legal liability, it gets into your head. This is a natural and understandable reaction IMO. Plus GrapheneOS does understand The Streisand Effect.

[-]

Dry_Row_7050@reddit (OP)

No I don’t support the European Commission

[-]

daemonpenguin@reddit

Since everything the GrapheneOS developers publish is hype or a lie I wouldn't take their claim at all seriously.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

Since everything the GrapheneOS developers publish is hype or a lie I wouldn't take their claim at all seriously.

Please provide examples of where GrapheneOS devs have lied.

There's always hype --- every security product ever "marketed" has hype. But I've found no lies.

[-]

BorisForPresident@reddit

My dude, they accused their competitors of sabotage only last week. They are pulling this stunt because of a few admittedly moronic comments made by french law enforcement and an even stupider newspaper article. Then there was the whole thing where the (former but still involved in the project) lead dev accused youtubers of atempted murder because they made videos showing other unhinged messages he posted.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

My dude, they accused their competitors of sabotage only last week.

Saying "It's very possible ... they are involved" is not an accusation, is it?

Then there was the whole thing where the (former but still involved in the project) lead dev accused youtubers of atempted murder because they made videos showing other unhinged messages he posted.

And, again, you get the crucial detail wrong. He said the "act of swatting" was "tantamount to attempted murder". That seems like a true statement. He never accused the "youtubers" of swatting.

He separately accused the "youtubers" of enraging people to the level of swatting. He didn't say that the youtubers did the actual swatting, but that the level of harassment they generated had that result.

I forget some of the details now, but Micay demonstrated that those youtubers had faked some of the interchange. What people will do for clicks and outrage is very odd. And the results of that outrage are harmful.

[-]

BorisForPresident@reddit

Saying "It's very possible ... they are involved" is not an accusation, is it?

It is though. It's phrased with just enough vagueness so they can turn around and deny it but they knew what they were doing. It's the tactics of a school bully spreading rumors.

It's the voicing of a suspicion and the full quote provided the reason for that suspicion.

are you refering to the tweet that read "It’s very possible Murena and/or iodé are involved. Both are French companies selling products with extraordinarily poor privacy/security. Both are useful to official state plans of locally hosted services with encryption backdoors." If so then no it's not it a reason, it's just spouting more unfounded and asinine bullshit. If there is more to this however then I am genuinely interested in hearing about it.

And, again, you get the crucial detail wrong. He said the "act of swatting" was "tantamount to attempted murder". That seems like a true statement. He never accused the "youtubers" of swatting.

He separately accused the "youtubers" of enraging people to the level of swatting. He didn't say that the youtubers did the actual swatting, but that the level of harassment they generated had that result.

It sucks that the internet works this way and he did not deserve that but should they have just not cover pertinent information? The problem here is that he poured gasoline on the fire and reinforced what was already being aledged. If he had simply messaged rossmann to say hey this was inaccurate in the video because of A,B, and C here's the proof there wouldn't be anything to make a video about.

I forget some of the details now, but Micay demonstrated that those youtubers had faked some of the interchange. What people will do for clicks and outrage is very odd. And the results of that outrage are harmful.

This is just speculation on my part but I just don't see it, rossmann was probably the biggest advocate for GOS on the web at the time and he's not a drama youtuber. Plus I see the same patterns in their social media interactions to this day.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

Saying "It's very possible ... they are involved" is not an accusation, is it?
It is though. It's phrased with just enough vagueness so they can turn around and deny it but they knew what they were doing. It's the tactics of a school bully spreading rumors.

No it's not. It's explicitly a statement of a possibility and it's a fact.

If you can't tell the difference between "It's possible that _ is lying" and " is lying", the problem is with you.

It's the voicing of a suspicion and the full quote provided the reason for that suspicion.

are you refering to the tweet that read "It’s very possible Murena and/or iodé are involved. Both are French companies selling products with extraordinarily poor privacy/security. Both are useful to official state plans of locally hosted services with encryption backdoors." If so then no it's not it a reason, it's just spouting more unfounded and asinine bullshit. If there is more to this however then I am genuinely interested in hearing about it.

I am referring to that. You seem to have a hard time telling the difference between facts and accusations. Let's break it down:

"It’s very possible Murena and/or iodé are involved."

It is possible, right? You do know what "possible" means, right??? Thus the statement is a fact.

"Both are French companies selling products with extraordinarily poor privacy/security."

Both are French companies selling products. That's a fact.

The view about their products is an opinion. He has that opinion about the security of everyone else's product.

"Both are useful to official state plans of locally hosted services with encryption backdoors."

French ministry still plan this. The National Assembly has rejected it for now, but anybody who would voluntarily agree to have encryption backdoors in locally hosted communications would be useful.

It sucks that the internet works this way and he did not deserve that but should they have just not cover pertinent information?

A journalist wanting to present information rather than potential misinformation/disinformation would talk to both sides before presenting just one side of a story. Don't you think that would have been appropriate?

It turns out that such an approach would diffuse the situation and result in fewer views ... so that doesn't happen. This is intentional. Stop trying to excuse it.

I noticed that you backed off from your assertion of "...lead dev accused youtubers of atempted murder...". Did you understand now that you were incorrect in that assertion?

This is just speculation on my part but I just don't see it, rossmann was probably the biggest advocate for GOS on the web at the time and he's not a drama youtuber.

All Rossmann did was replay and underscore the youtuber drama. Bad, certainly, but I believe that Micay was more upset at the originators of the drama.

[-]

BorisForPresident@reddit

No it's not. It's explicitly a statement of a possibility and it is, in fact, a possibility.

If you can't tell the difference between "It's possible that _ is lying" and " is lying", the problem is with you.

I understand that this is what the statement is saying but that's not how human interaction works in the real world. If I'm at a party with all my neighbours and I say it's possible that my neighbour Steve stole my parcel last Thursdays Steve will understandably be pissed with me because I singled him out and the implications of my statement are obvious. Likewise whoever wrote that tweet singled those companies out for a reason.

I am referring to that. You seem to have a hard time telling the difference between facts and accusations. Let's break it down:

Sure why not I've got down time at work.

"Both are French companies selling products with extraordinarily poor privacy/security."

Both are French companies selling products. That's a fact.

The view about their products is an opinion. He has that opinion about the security of everyone else's product.

He's entitled to that opinion I'm not trying to despite that

"Both are useful to official state plans of locally hosted services with encryption backdoors."

French ministry still plan this. The National Assembly has rejected it for now, but anybody who would voluntarily agree to have encryption backdoors in locally hosted communications would be useful.

Now we've left the realm of opinion and entered one of verifiable fact. It's off course impossible to prove a negative but I can't find a shread of evidence for either of this projects implementing or even expressing the intent to implement a back door. Frankly the french ministry can do what they please the code is open if continuing from France is impossible the code can be forked and devs living outside of France can continue to work on it

A journalist wanting to present information rather than potential misinformation/disinformation would talk to both sides before presenting just one side of a story. Don't you think that would have been appropriate?

He showed chat logs I really don't see how much clearer you could get

It turns out that such an approach would diffuse the situation and result in fewer views ... so that doesn't happen. This is intentional. Stop trying to excuse it.

Were just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't see it but I'm neither of these people so I can't know what was going on in their minds.

I noticed that you backed off from your assertion of "...lead dev accused youtubers of atempted murder...". Did you understand now that you were incorrect in that assertion?

I made a hyperbolic statement in a short comment summarizing a long saga I see you don't do well with subtext so let me explain as plainly as I can what my stance on this is. I understand that techlore has not and does not intend to cause any harm to Micay or any other GOS devs. I understand that he is referring to swatting and I understand that he doesn't believe that techlore or Rossmann are directly behind this. What I do take issue with is that he holds him responsible and chose to cut ties with Rossman over leaving a ducking YouTube comment.

All Rossmann did was replay and underscore the youtuber drama. Bad, certainly, but I believe that Micay was more upset at the originators of the drama.

He did? Unless he's done it multiple times the whole attempted murder bit comes from his correspondence with Rossmann.

Micay is an incredibly talented dev and I love and use GOS I just wish he let someone else handle PR.

[-]

Kasyv@reddit

The title of this post is straight up misinformation, I can't believe the Linux community is falling for it.

[-]

xcorv42@reddit

France is declining, their debt is going crazy their president is finishing is rein. It's a country rules by "old" people 55++

[-]

RunOrBike@reddit

Like all European countries, right?

[-]

xcorv42@reddit

Probably it's so sad anyway that they have to do such moves.

[-]

ComprehensiveHawk5@reddit

Does this sub just allow straight up misinformation? Obviously a prosecutor saying “if this org is associated with criminals we will get them” in some sense is threatening and deserves discussion, but nobody in the french government is demanding a backdoor.

[-]

BravestCheetah@reddit

This has been everyone pinged in the arch discord as well, i agree with their statement that if a part of linux is threatened then the entire community is. We stand strong and will not leave our philosophy of opensource and transparancy. We stand strong and we CAN NOT accept this.

[-]

ExeqZ@reddit

time to partner up with proton?

[-]

Wrong-Bumblebee3108@reddit

create a shitty version of the OS for French people only and call it a day, its not like anyone in France will download it anyway

[-]

CortaCircuit@reddit

The real question is why isn't nobody around the world doing anything about their authoritarian governments?

[-]

necrophcodr@reddit

Clearly they're too busy posting about it online.

[-]

elperuvian@reddit

Cause the masses are kept happy with porn and video games

[-]

Fluid-Crew-7588@reddit

This behavior against GrapheneOS allows us to understand that any other entity with which France is not at war is because they have opened a backdoor?

[-]

rotteegher39@reddit

Why is this the second time I'm witnessing France destroying it's reputation as "a free country"? I'm not even well informed in the news.

[-]

aviftw@reddit

WTF is happening to France honestly

[-]

vee-eem@reddit

Ask the Telegram guy about the french and backdoors

[-]

ZoroWithEnma@reddit

If they wanted a backdoor in an operating system can we assume that they don't have any backdoor in the hardware to spy on us?

[-]

Terrible-You-9552@reddit

It's france, when did they ever won a war?

[-]

senpaisai@reddit

Lost a war to Green Peace ... 😝

[-]

EytanMorgentern@reddit

You can't just say that and not share the whole strory

[-]

jahinzee@reddit

Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior

[-]

S7relok@reddit

Maybe you should open some history books sometimes.

[-]

Terrible-You-9552@reddit

Aaaand that was the joke, folks!

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

While I'm generally supportive of the efforts of the GrapheneOS project, I'm also not confident in them long-term because they are apparently militantly opposed to copyleft. If they would have copyleft without a CLA, then this would prevent future efforts of a proprietary fork of their work, and thus be part of a longer-term sustainable phone platform for open source.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

... are apparently militantly opposed to copyleft.

Not "militantly" in my opinion. It's with a reason. And you can certainly reject that reason:

They prefer MIT in their own work because they need cooperation with OEMs and the OEMs won't work with them unless the OEMs have the ability to separately offer a locked-down product (think TiVo). The agreement is that GrapheneOS can have an unlocked product, but the OEM can also sell a locked-down product.

There's a lot that's disagreeable with that (it allows others to compromise user Freedom). But I still find it rational. And, if you consider Linus' use of GPLv2-only and his anger with the FSF's tactics to push the Linux kernel to be re-licensed GPLv3 (to stop TiVo-ization), you might have some sympathy with that viewpoint.

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

the ability to separately offer a locked-down product (think TiVo). The agreement is that GrapheneOS can have an unlocked product, but the OEM can also sell a locked-down product.

Same old grift to get free labour from the community. That's why GPLv3 exists.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

Same old grift to get free labour from the community. That's why GPLv3 exists.

The kernel is GPLv2-only specifically because lots of people don't agree with your sentiment.

GPLv2 is all about the freedom of developers and their use of the software, while GPLv3 is more about the freedom of the users of the software. Like I said: There's a good reason that Linus fought to keep the kernel GPLv2. Nobody was harmed by TiVo ... and the fact is that TiVo made lots of software contributions. And those contributions could be used by anyone who had control of their own hardware. To force TiVo to unlock their HW is overreach IMO.

When I license my code I use the GPLv2-only, MIT, or (if I'm extending someone else's code) the existing license.

[-]

Elegant_AIDS@reddit

God forbid open source developers want to license their project as they see fit and not as some militant idiots on the internet

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

God forbid open source developers want to license their project as they see fit and not as some militant idiots on the internet

They absolutely should license as they want!

A license is a constitution for your community. If you want donations and support and lots of free support, testing, patches contributed, at least be transparent if you're going to ever have a rug-pull and have proprietary partnerships with some vendors that personally enriches you.

[-]

Elegant_AIDS@reddit

Feel free to fork the project and maintain it yourself

[-]

thallazar@reddit

I'm also pretty militantly opposed to copyleft. I view it as the divide between ideological purity and actually getting stuff done. I'm interested in my code being used in practice, not theory.

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

I'm also pretty militantly opposed to copyleft. I view it as the divide between ideological purity and actually getting stuff done. I'm interested in my code being used in practice, not theory.

Copyleft doesn't prevent it being used in practice. It just ensures a level playing field for all participants. You've heard of Linux, right?

[-]

thallazar@reddit

I take it you've never been a part of a dependency discussion on whether to include a GPL library for a product. They're avoided like the plague. Linux is one thing because it's not often sold as a product, there's remarkably few companies that build anything with Linux instead of just on top of it. See many Linux laptops around?

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

I take it you've never been a part of a dependency discussion on whether to include a GPL library for a product.

You're mistaken ;)

The whole point of the GPL is to make it so someone else isn't getting free labour out of the deal without giving back!

Those opposed to the GPL are those it was designed to protect against, like you!

[-]

thallazar@reddit

Yeah, the people who want their code building solutions to problems, you're absolutely right.

[-]

djao@reddit

It's completely reasonable to view a proprietary solution to a problem as not being a solution. In many contexts, proprietary code is the problem that they're trying to solve!

[-]

thallazar@reddit

And in many other cases, I'm more interested in solutions to world problems over ideology. I don't see much bankrolling of computer vision cancer detection by open source communities for one my career problems. There are problems in the world, that until we resolve capitalism, just aren't being solved by open source and rely heavily on the money in industry. I'll take industry solutions to those problems over ideological purity any day.

[-]

djao@reddit

You're not working on the same problems, so it should be completely unsurprising that you have a different solution.

[-]

EdgiiLord@reddit

See many Linux laptops around?

That is not relevant to the source being GPL. Have you seen BSD laptops? And no, Macbooks do not count for obvious reasons.

[-]

thallazar@reddit

You think it's not relevant that the only competition in the laptop space to Microsoft is the platform built on the more permissive licence, while Linux languishes in obscurity for both desktop and laptop share? Do you understand cause and effect? The incentives to build a good UX product with Linux are far lower, so very few companies attempt it. Then we arrive at the situation where Linux doesn't haven't market appeal beyond power users.

[-]

EdgiiLord@reddit

So you intentionally forget 80's-90's when MS had a headstart, then acquired technologies, integrated them inside, and went on to wage proxy wars with competitors that resulted in multiple monopoly cases?

[-]

thallazar@reddit

And the competitor that did survive was one not based on copyleft, but a more permissive licence. What do you think is different today about corporate landscape that this wouldn't just continue to happen to copyleft?

[-]

EdgiiLord@reddit

Lol? The competitor is proprietary, idk what you're smoking about permissive as if Windows is OSS. And no, BSD or Minix had nothing added to them because of them being permissive, they're actually way worse than Linux in terms of presence.

[-]

Houston_NeverMind@reddit

Did they say why they are opposing it?

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

Search grapheneos and copyleft on mastodon, eg: https://mastodon.social/@LaF0rge@chaos.social/114866609761423724

[-]

ThatOneShotBruh@reddit

Oh wow, this really sucks.

IMO permissive in this scenario sucks because why on Earth would I ditch Google's Android for an OS that can be made as shitty at a moment's notice?

[-]

Elegant_AIDS@reddit

That is stupid, just dont use the forks then

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

IMO permissive in this scenario sucks because why on Earth would I ditch Google's Android for an OS that can be made as shitty at a moment's notice?

exactly why I'm sad about their comments :(

Maybe one day postmarketos will be more usable

[-]

PureTryOut@reddit

Maybe one day postmarketos will be more usable

What is making you consider it not usable enough right now? We can use all the input, issues, development work, etc we can get :)

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

I want nothing more than a modern Free Software phone running GTK. I've still got an N900 and great memories from those days before Microsoft got it killed. When I can switch away from my limited use of Android, I'll be there. We don't win because we're more Free, we win because we're better.

From: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Installation

In its current stage, postmarketOS is for Linux enthusiasts. The experience will not be as polished as running Android or iOS. Expect serious bugs like calls not working, SMS not arriving, alarm clock not working, etc.

[-]

FactoryOfShit@reddit

I think their message is pretty valid. "The ones who hurt us either do this outside of anything GPL is about, or are someone who would simply ignore GPL and steal code anyway - and we don't have a massive legal team to fight this. But we know that (for one reason or another) some of our (potential) partners don't like GPL, so without any real benefit and a very real downside we don't see a reason to implement it"

I can't see anything wrong with their statements. GPL is, by definition, a LESS FREE license, so there has to be a benefit to use it, which they do not see.

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

(potential) partners don't like GPL

Read: "companies who want to profit from open source without being required to give back"

[-]

FactoryOfShit@reddit

For an organization that makes software for phones, being partners with phone manufacturers is beneficial. No matter how "evil" they are. Partners also doesn't mean "we endorse anything you do".

They also very explicitly explain why GPL won't provide any benefits in terms of "giving back" in their case. GPL doesn't force you to make any contributions, it just forces you to open-source your fork. And extracting the valuable features of that fork and pushing it through their complex code review and approval process is too much work to be practical.

These aren't my thoughts, I'm just paraphrasing the posts you linked. Have you read them? I feel like they have the answers to most of your concerns.

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

Copyleft would do nothing but hurt it's prospects. A proprietary fork of software does nothing about users and it's kind of the point.

The value of grapheneOS is not in the codebase but it's active developers achieving a specific vision. A security OS stops being a security OS in weeks without a proper team. And if another company is achieving this to the point they gain users than it's a net benefit for everyone.

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

Copyleft would do nothing but hurt it's prospects. A proprietary fork of software does nothing without users and it's kind of the point.

Staaph the anti-copyleft FUD please.

[-]

Final_Temperature262@reddit

Why don't you present an actual argument for your point instead of saying things you don't like are FUD like a loser on the internet

[-]

trisanachandler@reddit

Only legally. Copyleft license don't force compliance on their own.

[-]

purpleidea@reddit

Only legally. Copyleft license don't force compliance on their own.

Correct! And it's usually only companies that we're worried about, because only those which could be hurt by a lawsuit have any real skin in the game to be careful to respect the laws.

I used to work for a very big company which made very sure to respect the licenses.

[-]

servernode@reddit

no longer care about the project

[-]

Dycoth@reddit

France is attacking ? I only saw a media writing an article stating that GrapheneOS is used sometimes by narcos.

[-]

JJ3qnkpK@reddit

Well now that you've commented this..

Reddit is attacking GrapheneOS.

[-]

CubeEthan@reddit

You know what? I don’t like French anymore. I’m dropping my French class.

[-]

getridofwires@reddit

Many years ago, public key/private key encryption was used. Whatever happened to that? Is it too easily broken now?

[-]

JrSoftDev@reddit

Ah, France.... what a missed opportunity...

[-]

ValDaiKon@reddit

Another good day to feel ashamed of being french.

[-]

ObiKenobi049@reddit

They'll be pissy about it but I don't think they'll actually do anything.

[-]

Professional_Call@reddit

I’m not familiar with GrapheneOS (but it sounds interesting so I’ll check it out) but I am worried about the way many countries are requiring/expecting software companies to implement back doors. It seems like a very dangerous practice.

While I understand the authorities claim they need a back door for national security, a door for the ‘good’ guy is also a door for the ‘bad’ guys - and I don’t think I’d put most governments in the former group.

Perhaps the writing is on the wall, but we need to fight back and preserve our right to privacy on every level.

[-]

Responsible-Date4457@reddit

Maybe it's time that people wake up and purge every single one of their politicians.

[-]

HearMeOut-13@reddit

GrapheneOS themselves must be doing something sketchy if they're reacting THIS dramatically to what amounts to a newspaper article and a generic prosecutorial "if you cooperate with criminals we'll sue you" statement?

[-]

rabbit_in_a_bun@reddit

I fear a domino effect. Also, what does it mean for fr users already with the OS installed?

[-]

Local-Customer-2063@reddit

Does anyone have torvalds number? We gotta call in the big guns

[-]

messyhess@reddit

They should contact some local politicians that are against such policies, so they can get some level of protection without having to hire lawyers.

[-]

ItsAPeacefulLife@reddit

I read "France" as "Fiance" at first and thought, man your partner sure goes hard when they have a beef.

[-]

Original-Rush139@reddit

Let’s not let Europe fuck up more tech like they did with the GDPR.

[-]

Protyro24@reddit

Yes. Linux will be secure because it's not possible to build in a backdoor. A backdoor simply means one more point of attack in a system.

[-]

RevolutionaryScene13@reddit

French government is all about mass control. They feel inspired by china. Macron is trying to weaken france to feed it to Europe. He isnt finished yet. So he will elongate his mandate beyond the legal limit by trying to make our country go to war. He wants to silence and control everything so we can't have opinions online anymore

[-]

qb_master@reddit

I mean it's open-source, right?

If France forces them to put their backdoor in the code, someone just fork it without the backdoor, and if necessary, give it a new name. Rinse and repeat.

[-]

asp174@reddit

I remember the Windows NT4 'vulnerability' called I'm in France now.

When you set the location of the system to France, windows disabled the password hashing in the SAM database.

[-]

schraubdeckeldose@reddit

What about /e/OS and Iodé, they are both french

[-]

Sirius_Sec_@reddit

Europe is becoming a dystopian hell hole . Will be interesting to see which countries will be privacy friendly from here on out . Definitely nowhere in the EU is safe at this point .

[-]

NamedBird@reddit

And the NSA is adding backdoors to SSL/TLS, so it's not just GrapheneOS that's getting compromised...

I guess that if you don't want any backdoors, you have to completely write it on your own.
Which is not impossible, but also not something you can just suddenly do.

Or just avoid technology completely and talk face-to-face again. (Also better for your mental well-being!)

[-]

Alive-Big-838@reddit

France's government can't even stay afloat. It's nice that they're prioritizing spying on their people though.

[-]

barccy@reddit

I wonder what Open Mandriva, and the /e/ and iode mobile OSes's devs will do.

[-]

MelodicSlip_Official@reddit

"you can't stop an idea"

[-]

Sileniced@reddit

there already is a backdoor in Intel and AMD processors and ARM has it too... so linux doesn't need to be backdoored

[-]

shutyourbutt69@reddit

le grand frère up in there

[-]

feherneoh@reddit

The French have a nice tradition for when their leadership starts pulling shit. Maybe it's time to do their magic?

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

This comment has been removed due to receiving too many reports from users. The mods have been notified and will re-approve if this removal was inappropriate, or leave it removed.

This is most likely because:

Your post belongs in r/linuxquestions or r/linux4noobs
Your post belongs in r/linuxmemes
Your post is considered "fluff" - things like a Tux plushie or old Linux CDs are an example and, while they may be popular vote wise, they are not considered on topic
Your post is otherwise deemed not appropriate for the subreddit

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[-]

tree_cell@reddit

Louis 16 again right

[-]

iaacornus@reddit

Yes yes, a la Louis XVI

[-]

Lmaoboobs@reddit

Remind me what came after Louis XVI

[-]

Unhappy-Lion4530@reddit

Perhaps it wouldn’t be so bad to have an emperor to march against russia.

[-]

Annual-Advisor-7916@reddit

Well, for anybody inhabiting the surface of earth, it would indeed be very, very bad. Even if the war would be exclusively conventional, Europe would be a wasteland after it.

[-]

CuriOS_26@reddit

Imagine Europeans having to emigrate and be seen as the ones coming somewhere and stealing jobs and all that! Just like in the old days!

[-]

Annual-Advisor-7916@reddit

At least you get scientists for free.

[-]

CuriOS_26@reddit

Coming up in 2026: Napoleon IV: nobody saw this one coming!

[-]

04_996_C2@reddit

8-Day work weeks, mass murder, nobody gets to eat cake

[-]

Electrical-Risk445@reddit

Then an a couple of emperors and kings again.

[-]

usernamedottxt@reddit

This isn't new. At a previous job France was considered a restricted country of travel because of their privacy and encryption laws. Been that way for well over a decade.

[-]

fellipec@reddit

Caution! I once was suspended for mentioning this

[-]

lmarcantonio@reddit

They switched goverment just a few weeks ago, actually. Twice in a few days.

[-]

Askolei@reddit

It's only clowns on parade. Nothing is changing anytime soon.

[-]

l3ader021@reddit

The two big blocks - the RN and its allies (far right) and the NFP and its allies (left) - hold all the power even if they don't have the power because they outweigh Macron's feeble propositions. And, well, I don't think new elections will solve anything, unless they get their shit together and do a national unity government... yes, with all of them, including Bardella, Zemmour, Mélenchon, Ciotti, Macron et al.

[-]

Own-Inflation-3146@reddit

It’s the same prime minister as the last government. And it’s been decades since we have basically the same policies

[-]

tryfap@reddit

How much of the French population do you think even knows what Linux is, let alone a specific distribution of it, and would be willing to protest over it? If you're lucky, maybe you'll find 50 people.

[-]

feherneoh@reddit

If more of them did, I wouldn't have made that comment in the first place.

I prefer being an idiot over starting revolutions.

[-]

Greenerli@reddit

A lot of people here do not follow this kind of news sadly, and most of them do not feel concerned.

Mass media worked well. Now, all these repressive laws have been made to "fight against terrorism or pedocriminality", and it's for our own goods. A lot of people believe that.

[-]

InTooDeep024@reddit

Reddit moment

[-]

markand67@reddit

Linux is opensource, you can't add a back door in an opensource software unless you wany to be publicly exposed

[-]

C4_Shaf@reddit

Sadly, as a French, I think it's less malicious intent and more stupidity from aging legislators.

That doesn't excuse anything, the results would have been the same. I'm just saying this to say that if the same people were more informed about privacy, net neutrality and surveillance capitalism, there would be no shitty news like these.

[-]

furcom@reddit

Government malware exists. It is all about malicious intent. They want to know everything about you.

[-]

DrPanayioths@reddit

Governments are trying to put a stop to privacy. GrapheneOS was created for privacy, not to help criminals or bad actors. If someone uses it for criminal activities, it is not GrapheneOS's fault.

[-]

xng@reddit

Op is a desinformer

[-]

Aromatic_Base_3749@reddit

Is the French market worth the loss in control and security? I assume this analysis was already run internally.

[-]

vim_deezel@reddit

I think they're just moving any servers they have ther out of the country. I don't know that they will block downloads of grapheneos from french IP or anything

[-]

ark-import00289@reddit

I remembered them having a system for PCs... what happened that I couldn't find?

[-]

CardOk755@reddit

The title is wrong.

GrapheneOS have not been asked to create a backdoor.

Some silly French politicians have been wittering.

[-]

mrtruthiness@reddit

GrapheneOS have not been asked to create a backdoor.

Not yet. There have been threats of "legal consequences" from French prosecutors that basically say: if bad guys use your OS ... and you don't "cooperate with us", you will be in legal jeopardy.

I know that that implies to me. You might just think it's the prosecutor being dumb and not understanding the security model (to create a product where Graphene devs can't provide meaningful cooperation to break encryption).

[-]

Gold-Slip7145@reddit

Most of their servers are in the US or operated by US companies. And the problem is France. What a joke.

[-]

Star_king12@reddit

Everything said by the GrapheneOS lead has to be taken with a spoon of salt: he has a long known history of inventing attacks against himself with nothing to show for it. If this time he's able to provide evidence - fuck France (even more), else - one more dent in his reputation.

[-]

RemoveHuman@reddit

Yeah this is just an ad and everyone fell for it.

[-]

C4_Shaf@reddit

"Attendez, mais vous ne voulez pas créer volontairement une brèche dans votre système qui serait potentiellement découvert par des hackers ? Vous êtes pro-terroristes, en fait !"

Voilà. Donc si quelqu'un établi ce type d'argument sans sourciller, barrez-vous du débat. Prétexter n'importe quoi. "J'ai mal au ventre", "j'ai oublié mes devoirs à la maison", etc. Juste cassez-vous, parce que ça sert plus à rien de parler.

[-]

Objective_Resist_780@reddit

These politicians should be reminded in which country the guillotine was made

[-]

MoorhsumushroomRT@reddit

Europe clearly hasn't learned from World War 2.

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

This submission has been removed due to receiving too many reports from users. The mods have been notified and will re-approve if this removal was inappropriate, or leave it removed.

This is most likely because:

Your post belongs in r/linuxquestions or r/linux4noobs
Your post belongs in r/linuxmemes
Your post is considered "fluff" - things like a Tux plushie or old Linux CDs are an example and, while they may be popular vote wise, they are not considered on topic
Your post is otherwise deemed not appropriate for the subreddit

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[-]

merlinux1@reddit

I'm french (thank god I also have an aussie passport) and I have to use VPN for so many things nowadays I feel like Im in China. This country is going down the gutters atm.... Yet most of my countrymen think they live in the best and most free country in the world....

[-]

WSuperOS@reddit

french people it's time to do your thing

[-]

Adventurous_Log_6452@reddit

Y'all acting like the USA never attempted to back door apple devices lol but i guess the french bashing must go on./s

[-]

edparadox@reddit

France is attacking open source GrapheneOS because they’ve refused to create a backdoor. Will Linux developers be safe?

That's not what this is about.

[-]

No_Condition_4681@reddit

Just wait a few years and this could start happening worldwide...

[-]

SiegeRewards@reddit

France doesn’t care about privacy or anything such. The EU in general is very “what we say should apply to the entire planet”

[-]

zavorak_eth@reddit

Fuck all these overreaching governments. It is time for the people to demand better! Power to the people!

[-]

LowEndHolger@reddit

Well, at least France is well developed enough, not to have masked guys from unmarked vehicles kidnapping their poeple.

[-]

derperofworlds1@reddit

The masked goons in France will only kidnap you if you use encryption, so if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear!

[-]

przemo-c@reddit

Damn they're lazy... you should set up good contributors that'll gain reputation and then try to sneak in backdoors ;]

[-]

TR1LLIONAIRE_@reddit

It sounds as though the French would be willing to call this out if they were educated on the matter. Awareness is the next step.

[-]

ravensholt@reddit

France? What the f*ck happened to your love of "Liberty" ?

Frog eating c*nts.

[-]

TR1LLIONAIRE_@reddit

This is so disappointing because the French just showed how strong their protests are. Trying to break encryption and trying to get a back door is some pathetic shit. If they are worried the Russians get to them first the French should just say that and work out some cyber security team to make sure hackers don’t already have a back door installed.

[-]

GhostInThePudding@reddit

Yes, the French government and Macron are pure evil. What are they up to, 7 Prime Ministers rotating while Macron destroys the country and the entire EU?

[-]

zappellin@reddit

Would have been nice to include the part where the ANSSI (basically the things that handle cyber security in France) is mentioned for making regular contribution to GrapheneOs and actively use it

[-]

JoeB-@reddit

Agreed, but if a back door is needed, then ANSSI should just fork GrapheneOS and have their own distribution.

[-]

05-nery@reddit

France just can't stop losing 🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[-]

grathontolarsdatarod@reddit

Stay strong guys!!!

[-]

OkOkieDokey@reddit

I thought France had the most democratic and progressive government in the world?

[-]

landsoflore2@reddit

Keyword being "had".

[-]

Myst3rious_Foxy@reddit

I feel ashamed of my own country. This is shit.

[-]

Professional_Oil8153@reddit

France doesnt need open source... We can live without france

[-]

IngwiePhoenix@reddit

I am german, living in the EU. Anything I can do here?

I do not want state people putting their grabbers on my privaxy. The reason I chose to run GrapheneOS was because of privacy. The reason I am reading deep into Tor and I2P is precisely due to wanting to get the hell out of the surveiliance nightmare as much as I can (yes I can see the hypocricy of posting on reddit still lol).

So if there is something I can do to fight this bullshit, please give me pointers. Reading this made me feel genuenly sick; france is a four hour drive away from me.

[-]

Dry_Row_7050@reddit (OP)

Vote and protest peacefully. LOL just kidding.

[-]

Edubbs2008@reddit

Laughing My Ass off, FOSS sucks anyway

[-]

gravgun@reddit

>sole moderator of empty subs such as r/FuckFOSS

lol
lmao, even

[-]