How do you feel about the term “growth mindset”?
Posted by PartemConsilio@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 48 comments
Mentors and other experienced folks I have worked with in the past have told me a “growth mindset” is something to seek after in the hiring process. I’ve been interviewing people for over 7 years now and I still feel like I don’t have a handle on what that fully means. I think its people with a curious mind and who enjoy taking on challenges for personal and professional growth. The problem is even when I feel like I’ve found such a person in the interview process there are many of them that still struggle. The are usually folks who cannot research for answers properly or expect a lot of hand-holding when given tasks.
So my question is am I just bad at finding these people or is “growth mindset” bullshit?
Wooden-Glove-2384@reddit
it means ya wanna make money
superdurszlak@reddit
It's okay, personally I am always inclined to grow, to do things better, etc.
However - the trick is that's it's never enough. You could have tried harder. Others did more. Others tried harder. Others don't have commitments, hobbies, but they have perfect health.
If you're not growing at a faster pace that the market, you're falling behind.
HK-65@reddit
There are a lot of corporate lingo buzzwords out there, but "growth mindset" specifically comes from Microsoft.
Read this:
https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-cult-of-microsoft/
empty-alt@reddit
I use a different term that I think is a bit more clear. I use the term "Lifelong Learner". It's more concrete and avoids all the silly baggage that comes with "growth mindset".
Stargazer__2893@reddit
Growth mindset is absolutely essential, and for that reason it's become a buzzword that I don't think most people understand.
It's basically another way to describe grit. Do you see skill as something naturally endowed? You either have it or you don't? Or do you see it as something that you develops, and failure and struggle are part of that process?
I don't know how to select for it in an interview though. If someone solves your toy problem, how do you know if they're simply intelligent and this has come easily to them, or if they worked their butt off studying and practiced deliberate practice for 5 years? I don't think you can distinguish them, and that's kinda the point. Grit is as good if not better than talent.
Only things I can suggest are - how do they talk about their mistakes and failures? With defensiveness or minimization? Or with acceptance and maybe even pride? Are they curious? Do they talk about learning process and decision-making, or just end results?
Maybe that'll help. Hope it does. Good luck.
TitusBjarni@reddit
Someone who pursues career growth at the expense of company objectives.
Frequent_Bag9260@reddit
Lol
throwaway_0x90@reddit
The problem is these buzzword terms don't have well understood meanings.
Use words/terms that are well understood - especially in this international world where everyone's not English-First-Language.
BigLoveForNoodles@reddit
God, I hate the phrase so much. I particularly hate that I think it's the biggest thing I have going for me.
I've made a career out of being the guy on the team who says, "that looks fun, I could take a crack at it." Thirty-odd years in and I've done a little bit of everything, and people think I'm way smarter than I am. I'm not - the scope of my knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep (okay, approaching a foot deep in some places). The way to get there is to be willing to take risks, and to be honest with yourself and your team about your capabilities.
Synaqua@reddit
Teachable / not a one trick pony.
An example I like is when you have a conversation with someone about a hypothetical.
E.g. “do you reckon you’d get to work on time if you took this example route instead of your current route?”
“But I take my route?”
“But what if you took the other one?
“…BUT I TOOK MY ROUTE!”
If they can’t even try to see other perspectives / ways of doing things, they’re definitely not someone suited for growth mindsets. *
hoosierscrewser@reddit
I would love to see a growth mindset when it comes to compensation but it’s tough to get raises that keep up with inflation. So unfortunately I must adopt a “give them what they’re paying for” mindset.
forloopy@reddit
Anyone I’ve met who’s used it outside of tech make good points for it and everybody in tech that preaches it is an insane person, in my experience
MendaciousFerret@reddit
No, I like it.
The challenge is that people change and an engineer who at one point had a growth mindset can become cynical, burnt out or stop listening. Work, companies, politics and just time in the workplace can all cause people's mindset to change - though no fault of their own.
For that reason I like to think of resilience as a factor in personal growth. Experience devs who can still find something positive to attach themselves to in their work, despite all of the challenges, are ones who will often be great team members. Also - curiosity. If you can weather the ups and downs of the workplace and the economy and you stay curious you will probably be a big value add in your team.
Skullclownlol@reddit
It's bullshit. It's generally said to mean "people open to learning/improving/...", but even if that was true then the large majority of hiring interviewers still aren't qualified to judge - from a psychological perspective - whether someone has an actual mindset to improve or not.
The large majority of interviewers can't identify what's genuine and what's not, can't identify lies, can't identify experience/qualifications from faked confidence, etc.
It's bullshit that sounds good so it's easy to sell, and the more it sells the more "followers" they get of their ~~cult~~ "mindset", so the more opportunities are created for the ~~cult~~ "followers".
throwaway_0x90@reddit
meh, buzzwords. It means whatever you want it to mean.
What happened to looking for good employees that do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay? Just look for good people; don't chase buzzwords.
throwaway_0x90@reddit
meh, buzzwords. It means whatever you want it to mean.
Frequent_Bag9260@reddit
Is ambition also a meaningless buzzword? What about initiative or curiosity?
throwaway_0x90@reddit
those are actual words.
IndependentProject26@reddit
Hahaha lord. I know we’re all sick of bullshit buzzwords but growth mindset is real. The people in this thread shitting on it likely do not have it.
FortuneIIIPick@reddit
> So my question is am I just bad at finding these people or is “growth mindset” bullshit?
I'm thinking, Dilbert's boss candidates.
Moloch_17@reddit
It's bullshit.
Growth mindset is a buzzword that means whatever the user wants it to mean.
Frequent_Bag9260@reddit
I mean, it’s over/misused a lot but it’s definitely a real thing. You should read about it before just dismissing it
retrofibrillator@reddit
Typically used as an explanation why you should accept below-market compensation.
Moloch_17@reddit
For above average effort
jfcarr@reddit
Corporate BS to make you always doubt yourself, encourage imposter syndrome and to justify getting rid of you when something negative happens, from an economic downturn to a bad sales quarter to a personal illness.
The only growth mindset you should really worry about is your financial growth, from reducing debt and building your investment portfolio. Keep your skills up to date, of course, but good financial goals will shield you from a lot of corporate nonsense.
Frequent_Bag9260@reddit
Um, what? That’s not at all what it means lol
CaptainTheta@reddit
It really just means being willing to step out of your comfort zone to learn new things / take on new responsibilities.
If you have ever worked with someone who doesn't have a growth mindset the difference is pretty clear, since people lacking the characteristic will tend to reject taking on work in new areas, won't adopt new technologies until forced and won't necessarily take on tasks they aren't familiar with even though they have bandwidth and there's a need.
originalchronoguy@reddit
Everyone has a growth mindset --- "I want to grow up and be an astronaut. Or I want to be a doctor"
The difference is acting on that impulse. It can vary by degree of determination. A growth mindset isn't about having some lofty goal. But rather, a methodical, active discipline roadmap of execution.. The execution part is key. This separates the day dreamers - the talkers and the doers.
People with true growth mindset actively engage in fulfilling their aspirations. I would say, some are built differently. You wake up at 5AM, not because Gary Vee tells you it is a grind. You do it because 5AM is the most convenient time that is not distracting that you can fit in 2 hours of solid non-interruption. It is being highly disciplined.
I go through those phases every so often in my life but they are always driven to come to some conclusion -- 3 or 4 month final result. It really isnt sustainable long term to breath and behave like a clock-work machine. In doses, it can be done.
Again, I only done this at rare times in my life -- driven by other motivating factors that allow me to focus 12 hours non-stop. And the last time that happened was a lay-off where I had to study and upskill my way out before savings burn-rate would finish.
This can also be conditioned in upbringing. 1st gen immigrants often have children who want to have a better life than their parents. I saw my father worked in the rain once and I told myself that would never be me. It is ingrain in your pysche.
If you are interviewing, you just explicitly ask them what it means to them in theory and practice. Do they stick to their core beliefs? Those who do can articulate the why and back up by experience. This is sort of like an ivy league admissions interview.
WhenSummerIsGone@reddit
this is about initiative, knowing how to ask questions, confidence that it's ok to do things.
Growth mindset is an attitude. "I can do this if I put in effort" vs. "I'm not that kind of person who can do X"
valbaca@reddit
I think where you're missing the mark is the first (curious mind and taking on challenges) is slightly different than the second (research for answers and don't need hand-holding).
The first-kind of person could be academic or kind of set into what they're good at or let themselves get blocked too easily. They might excel but only if conditions are perfect.
Whereas the second-kind of person has tenacity/grit/can-do attitude.
A way to test would be to ask a question about a time they got work done despite something fundamental going down; e.g. their power or internet went out or they didn't have a stakeholder's contact info or they were using a library with poor documentation.
but yes, the "growth mindset" is overblown bullshit. It's simply the basic idea that skills and knowledge are acquired and not static and "innate talent" is an overrated concept for 99% of things. Most "talent" is just practice and having done something enough times. It's in your brain and muscles, not in your DNA.
MisterFatt@reddit
I’ve worked with some people who I’d say definitely do not have a “growth mindset” in my opinion. This engineer has tons of experience but has done very little branching out of backend development. They’re a good engineer, but they don’t like computers/the internet/new technology. Software engineering is just a job for them. They will take things on outside of their expertise but only if prodded to do so. I get the general impression that their approach is “how can I avoid more work.”
I keep this person in mind as an example of who I would not hire for entirely non-technical reasons
alppu@reddit
On the other hand, isn't it generally bad use of company resources to put an efficient backend engineer to work on front end tasks?
More time spent on the tasks, more questionable design choices... and the upside likely is that a person who is genuinely not interested in front end work is slightly less bad at it but still way below average. That is terrible in short term and still pointless long term.
Growth tasks that make more sense would be e.g. working on an unfamiliar repository that no one in the company knows well, or experimenting with a previously untried backend idea.
bigorangemachine@reddit
I don't think so.
I think it's part motivation... I've gone and worked at places and I didn't see a good direction to meld my personal time with work requirements to show growth.
Sometimes whats going on at work is boring me.... recently our company had a big push into AI and I wanted to work with Godot. So I figured maybe if I could get a Toy-Game started I could get some reinforcement learning wrapped into it I could make progress on both fronts.
Now I'm kinda like "you know if work would reward me if I just present what I learned in godot I would do a lunch presentation"; but it's so tangent from our actual work I don't think they would consider it for my EoY bonus.
Designer_Holiday3284@reddit
People who are open to improving.
failsafe-author@reddit
It means not seeing things in a static way, as on or off. “I’m bad at documentation” is not a growth mindset. It looks at the task with no room for improvement. “I can improve how I write documentation” takes the same idea, but phrases in a way that leaves room, and even plans for, growth.
chilllikeabreeze@reddit
Hard agree on this. I worked in education for years before transitioning into software development and, as couple posters have noted, "growth mindset" this not just corporate lingo. It's as important for students in school as it is for professionals.
We also used to talk about "coachability", which I think is another good way to frame this. As managers / hiring managers, we had to think about whether a person (and ourselves) demonstrates the capacity to learn and grow. It's not that they won't struggle (that's just part of growth), but that they have the executive skills, grit, and interest to take feedback, apply it, and - better yet - extrapolate from there on what they can personally improve.
It's definitely not easy to assess this entirely in an interview, but sometimes you can get a sense from how they react to your feedback.
pigtrickster@reddit
Watch the TED talk about it - Carol Dweck.
The answer is that very few people are truly 100% growth mindset.
The vast majority of people have of each mindset. But by pointing
out what a growth mindset is then wanting to or being able to improve
is indicative of where the candidate sits on the growth/fixed mindset spectrum.
Questions involving the candidates past experiences are indicative.
Tell me about a work situation where you (had conflict, failed, were challenged)
Candidate responds.
What did you take away from that experience?
Candidate responds. (This response is key in determining growth vs fixed mindset)
Breadinator@reddit
Valid question.
While, yes, it is a bit of a buzzword, it is IMHO really about "always looking to grow". Looking and leaning from mentors, reading books, taking courses, taking the time to learn from your mistakes, and so on. It is usually the hallmark of someone who actually tries to level up themselves, and won't stay static in their abilities. These kinds of people tend to increase their value over time, and make your hiring investment more valuable.
Evaluating that in an interview process is tricky, and I don't have a great answer for that. But even poking at a person's resume for signs of advancement or asking how they made a mistake and what they did about it on the job can help signal growth.
I will distinguish this from someone who is just ambitious for position, power, a bigger paycheck, etc. That may motivate them to grow, but others may look for the shortest, easiest route to get there.
gautamb0@reddit
In practice, imho, the easiest way to gauge it both in yourself and others is to see how willing they are to change their minds.
But what you’re looking for looks more like raw problem solving ability, and the way to gauge that that works for me is having them explain the toughest problem they solved. Look out for examples of exactly what you’re looking for- being able to unblock themselves through debugging and research.
R2_SWE2@reddit
It means people are willing to take on work they may be uncomfortable with but are willing to learn.
It is a buzzword and the biggest problem with it is it’s in every job description, even ones that would never really have the opportunity for growth.
double-click@reddit
It just means being open to feedback, improvements, or opportunities.
It’s wrapped up in a stupid buzzword that abstracts that all away from its core intent.
HelenDeservedBetter@reddit
The phrase comes from the book Mindset by Carol Dweck. I'd recommend reading the book or an in-depth summary if you want to understand what most people who use the phrase are talking about.
PettyWitch@reddit
I am fully up front in my interviews and with management that I don’t have a growth mindset or leadership skills. I want to remain a senior software developer for ever. I even have that written in my cute little summary “about me” in my resume. I have 16 years of experience and have worked at several companies, and have always been spared in layoffs. In fact they fight to keep me.
There is a real unacknowledged need for unambitious people who are happy to just do the grunt work, learn the system very well, and be there to put out fires.
smutje187@reddit
"Why are you looking for a new job?" "Where do you see yourself in X years?"
Depending how people answer those - backwards facing, no creativity, no time spent researching, no time spent thinking about their career - it’s a good first indicator.
keepitterron@reddit
if anybody asks me where i see myself in X years i’m gonna punch them in the face
Nectarine555@reddit
The opposite of a growth mindset, in psychological terms, is a fixed mindset. Maybe looking up examples of what this means (“fixed vs growth mindset”) could be a way to help better pinpoint where the difference lies.
maikindofthai@reddit
As with any corporate lingo - it’s a simple and mostly reasonable idea that’s dressed up with a bunch of word count bullshit.
The idea is you want people that aren’t stuck in their ways and are willing to try and learn new things. That’s it.
floopsyDoodle@reddit
A growth mindset (I would say you defined it properly) is important for long term growth which is one important part of success. But it's not the one and only trait you should look for in new developers, just one of many.
Then you've had bad luck, I know lots of people with growth mindsets and the ability to self study. Again, just because they have a growth mindset does not mean they are the best, it's just one trait among many to look for. Antoehr good one is the ability to complete a task without hand holding. Another is the ability to communicate effectively, another is the ability to work with others. Another is... There are many others, some more important than a growth mindset, some not.