UPS grounds its fleet of MD-11's, the type of plane in Louisville crash
Posted by UhhAnxietyy@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 111 comments
Posted by UhhAnxietyy@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 111 comments
DreadedCrocoStempy@reddit
Ground observers reported the aircraft had been delayed for about two hours for work on the left hand engine (engine #1), the engine #1 separated during the takeoff run, the center engine emitted streaks of flames, the aircraft impacted a UPS warehouse and ploughed through other facilities before coming to rest in a large plume of fire and smoke.
FAA slaps UPS with $4 million penalty | Reuters https://share.google/Bj7oHKuPyq4xny7hu
TheDrMonocle@reddit
Pretty typical after a major accident. Figure out if its a fleet issue or a specific aircraft issue.
MidsummerMidnight@reddit
Not typical at all tbh
spddmn77@reddit
Why wait 3 days to do it?
udonkittypro@reddit
That's because an investigation is live and things change/get updated. For example, let's just assume that (ik this is a pretty far-fetched example) that the engine didn't fall off but got blown off because it impacted some mythical dragon species that nobody knew about. Then it has nothing to do with the airplane itself, but rather the dragon, so the plane type is not at risk. There would be no point in grounding it. But as information flows and the recorders and videos get verified, there is enough evidence to warrant a grounding to inspect and ensure that this issue is not prevalent among the other aircraft in the fleet.
TheDrMonocle@reddit
The max was grounded 3 days after the SECOND crash...
sofixa11@reddit
Only the FAA after pretty much every other air authority did so before them, kind of forcing their hand.
It's wild how much of a reputation hit they got from that whole debacle.
More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit
Boeing said we recommend you do this. UPS and FedEx said sure we will do this but first let us reposition our MDs.
Then the FAA handed down the emergency AD grounding the fleet.
The sequence makes sense when the dollar is the motivator. UPS likely pulled the same levers on this that they did to crush 117.
nasadowsk@reddit
737 rudder? The Seattle Times article series was great. IIRC, Boeing did NOT like it when it came out...
20above@reddit
Eerily similar to how they bungled the cargo door issue for the DC 10. Thats probably why they grounded the DC 10 so quickly after Flight 191.
Luster-Purge@reddit
Not universally. China issued a grounding the day after, with most of the world after that. The FAA was one of the last to do so, three days afterward.
spddmn77@reddit
Yeah, but that doesn’t really answer why the wait
bgibbz084@reddit
The answer is because immediately grounding aircraft is a logistical nightmare. These planes are already in the location they need to be to fly the routes they need to fly, so to just stop flying them would leave the carrier in a major bind with personnel and equipment not available.
These planes have flown for decades, and 3 days isnt likely to cause any issues, but it does provide time for the carrier to wind down ops in a sensible way.
spddmn77@reddit
Thank you for answering instead of just downvoting
McCheesing@reddit
Yeah that’s because neither were flown by American pilots or American carriers. I wish I was kidding
Old_Suggestion_3653@reddit
got more evidence of an actual mechanical failure
fly_awayyy@reddit
Because it’s a live and active investigation as details and data emerge and keep emerging decisions will be made…
MahesvaraCC@reddit
I'd guess they heard the trasmisiones and preliminary determined pilots didn't do anything abnormal during our previous to the flight
No_Public_7677@reddit
Is it?
TheDrMonocle@reddit
Max crashed, fleet grounded. Southwest engine came apart in flight, all engines tested which grounded many aircraft.
In 2013 dreamliners all grounded after a battery fire
Dc-10 in 1970s were grounded for a very similar crash.
military Ospreys have been grounded as well If memory serves
Maybe saying common isn't right.. but it happens.
Kardinal@reddit
Typical is not accurate. For example the recent 787 air India incident did not result in any groundings of any kind.
I suspect that the standard is that there has to be some positive reason to believe that there was a systemic problem with the type. That can happen either because multiples of the type experience of failure or inspections of additional units of the same type reveal flaws that could indicate a systemic problem.
My guess is that somebody started looking at the md11s in the fleet and saw signs that there might be a systemic problem. But that's just a guess.
zemelb@reddit
Didn’t it take 3 MAX crashes before they grounded it? Or am I misremembering?
Luster-Purge@reddit
Two crashes within five months for what was effectively a brand new aircraft model.
No_Public_7677@reddit
Exactly. Grounding an older plane after one crash is not normal.
Thequiet01@reddit
It took a couple of incidents before anyone would agree there was a problem that wasn’t pilot error in a new plane, I think.
00owl@reddit
Weren't they in African countries and African airplanes?
I'm sure there was a fair bit of racism going on while making that determination.
If they'd been planes full of Americans they would have grounded the entire 737 fleet
a1b3c2@reddit
I remember reading a lot of racist comments in this subreddit when the crashes happened and deflecting blame from Boeing.
Thequiet01@reddit
There were rudder issues before the 737 Max that took two crashes and a serious incident where the pilot managed to recover before it was really taken seriously too, if I remember correctly. Denver and Pittsburgh for the crashes I think?
TheRealNobodySpecial@reddit
Colorado Springs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_585
Thequiet01@reddit
Thanks! I knew Colorado but guessed the wrong city.
sharkov2003@reddit
In the case of Ethiopian, might have been racism at play, as their pilots receive proper training and Ethiopian generally is a carrier with very high standards.
Lion Air? Not so much…
Klutzy-Residen@reddit
Does however prove why root cause analysis is important.
It was easy to point the blame at MCAS or the pilots. After the investigation it was quite clear that there were multiple factors that lead to the accident and all of them needed to be improved.
sharkov2003@reddit
Agree 100%
747ER@reddit
There were only two crashes.
strat-fan89@reddit
"only"...
McCheesing@reddit
2
No_Public_7677@reddit
All these involved multiple incidents. Not one crash
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
No one knows yet.
Giant_Slor@reddit
Interesting how Boeing was the one who recommended the grounding when pretty much all Boeings executive level is former McDonnell-Douglas folk. They know a big F-ing problem when they see one. At least now they do I guess
ribbitcoin@reddit
They want them to buy 777 freighters
GSTBD@reddit
As the MD-11 is so old is there any point returning them to the skies? With a possible economic downturn next year they would likely be top of the list to be retired then anyway?
sharkov2003@reddit
They are old, but still have their purpose in terms of range and cargo capacity in the fleets.
GSTBD@reddit
The point i’m trying to make is that these aircraft are probably planned to be phased out in the next couple of years anyway. It always comes down to money. If there is a costly design change needed it simply will not happen as it will take over a year to design and implement the change, and there will not be the return on that investment for such an old aircraft type. If there is a market decline next year then the argument for keeping the MD11 flying only worsens.
Personally I think we’ve now seen the last commercial MD11 flight. 1 engine severe damage/separation cannot be allowed to cause a hull loss.
sharkov2003@reddit
Sure, it comes down to money, and if heavy modifications are needed, it‘s simply a return on investment calculation.
Up to this point, there would have been good reasons for carriers not to retire their MD-11 fleet, and few reasons to retire them.
Mike__O@reddit
The 757 is just as old, with a lot of airplanes still flying that are older than all the MD11s. The MD11 just feels old because it's such an antiquated design by a company that doesn't exist anymore.
GSTBD@reddit
I must have missed the news with the 757 having a single engine failure and leading to a fireball in the news/s. There are a lot more 757s flying around than MD11s so it would be much harder to ground that type anyway.
With fewer than 100 MD11s still flying, all cargo, and the risk of an economic downturn on the cards, if there is a serious design fault that cannot be easily rectified then I think that is curtains for the ageing MD11. It wont be economically viable to redesign and certify a fix.
evilamnesiac@reddit
It was developed from the DC10, the bones of the plane are late 60's, the wings and engines were different but it's an old design however you look at it.
E39_CBX@reddit
Guess where the 737 max comes from then
evilamnesiac@reddit
Given the workarounds Boeing had to do to update such an old design and the resulting tragedies its a good argument that you can only update something so far before realistically a clean sheet design is needed.
Not that it applies to the MD, its an old plane that was developed from an older plane. the top comments point was regarding whether they would just be retired at this point. I hope not as I like a trijet but as early 777's age out of passenger use and enter the freight market its clear that the MD's days are numbered.
dagelijksestijl@reddit
By that logic Boeing’s premier narrowbody has an even older design heritage.
Luster-Purge@reddit
Dude they're still flying DC-9s and Lockheed Electras up in Canada.
Knineteen@reddit
How do you ground a fleet with over 30 years of experience?
Not saying it’s a bad decision, just looking at it from an odds perspective.
Ok-Media5376@reddit
Corrosion and repaired left (2019) and right (\~2021) pylon cracks on this plane, for example.
motivatedtuna@reddit
imagine you’re a UPS pilot, you find out an engine and pylon fell off your MD-11. No shot you’re accepting that aircraft until you’re comfortable knowing the cause right? If the fleet wasn’t grounded I imagine pilots would start denying those aircraft. Atleast the smart ones.
Hosedragger5@reddit
I saw one flying into DFW from SDF the day after the crash . I could not imagine getting onto that plane and taking off over the destruction of the same plane you’re flying. Even if it’s unlikely to happen twice, thats some bad juju.
ThePrimCrow@reddit
They’re probably looking for metal fatigue. Years of flight cycles going into very cold temperatures at altitude eventually can weaken metal parts. Think about the flexing of the wings every flight. Small movements over and over. While aircraft are designed for longevity, everything has a failure point after a certain amount of use.
Mike__O@reddit
There's always the first airplane to crash. Until you know that the one crash was just an isolated incident and not just the first instance of a fleet-wide problem that will lead to more crashes, you need to actually take a look.
If there's a metal fatigue or corrosion problem in the pylons, the mishap airplane could just be the first one that failed and there may be dozens of airplanes out there that are only a matter of time before they reach that same point.
Zippitydo2@reddit
I think when something like this happens you almost need to, theres too many unknowns as to why, could this be a 1 in a billion chance, maybe. But it could also be a problem on every single md11, that's from either decades of use or perhaps maintenance cutting corners
Mike__O@reddit
This may be the end for the MD11. The grounding didn't come from the FAA, it came at Boeing's recommendation. Boeing has wanted to get rid of the MD11 for years. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if whatever inspection Boeing comes up with "finds" something that would cost millions of dollars per airplane to fix.
I wonder how many tails it would take to get the 747-8 line opened back up? Between FedEx, Atlas, and UPS they could probably sell the better part of 100 747s
spaceship-earth@reddit
It would take an order for thousands of 747 to open back up. The supply chain has transitioned away and would have to be rebuilt. Ge stopped making engines. Fuselage frames destroyed. No room at Everett anymore. Never going to happen.
cyberentomology@reddit
The 777/777X is the replacement for the 747.
That said, there are still a good number of 744s in boneyards that can be converted to freight.
spaceship-earth@reddit
agreed, but the 747 production line is deader than disco. Nearly impossible to bring back.
cyberentomology@reddit
Nobody’s going to be building new 747s, but conversions are still very much a viable option.
cyberentomology@reddit
The type was reaching end of life anyway, and there will come a point, sooner than later, or maybe it has already happened now, where the economics of the MD-11 are no longer viable. FAA wanted a reduction in flights anyway…
I too would be very surprised at this point if the MD-11 flies a revenue route ever again.
The cost to find and remedy the root cause of this failure is likely going to exceed any benefit in continuing to fly the type.
E39_CBX@reddit
I doubt this. The MD-11 is a very capable and profitable aircraft for UPS and FedEx.
Mike__O@reddit
Yes it is. Doesn't change the fact that Boeing wants it gone and has wanted it gone for quite a while.
Herr_Hornbuckele@reddit
I think the company making 747 fuselages went belly up or something like that? So it's not very viable to just fire up the line again.
Dangerous-Rice44@reddit
Additionally, Boeing has reallocated that production line in Everett to the 737 Max 10. There’s no way they’re dropping a plane that has hundreds of orders in favor of a plane that has, at best, a few dozen.
spaceship-earth@reddit
Interesting, seeing as how both fleets have both PW4000 and CF6 powered MD-11... concern over pylon or how it reacts in a fan blade out situation? NTSB said parts of the fan all over the runway.
DCS_Sport@reddit
It kind of makes sense after they’ve listened to the CVR and viewed the initial data off the FDR. It seems like they’ve identified a mechanical failure occurred, and they want to do the right thing to investigate if this is a more systemic issue.
Klutzy-Residen@reddit
They have also gotten access to another UPS MD-11 for the investigation and may have foundsomething there as well.
Landon1m@reddit
Hadn’t heard that. Do you have a link?
Klutzy-Residen@reddit
https://youtu.be/hSB75gTV6XA?t=968
After rewatching its actually not 100% clear that it is a MD-11, but it does seem very likely. "Exemplary aircraft in the fleet with the same types of engines".
Do they have any other planes with the GE CF6-80C2?
randyexplainsitall@reddit
The A300 also uses the CF6-80C2.
ptkda20@reddit
UPS operates only the P&W engined A-300
stormdraggy@reddit
What about the Chris & Houston engines.
randyexplainsitall@reddit
Sucks for them. The P&W takes forever to start in comparison.
ptkda20@reddit
Don’t think this is the place for a start time debate.
Klutzy-Residen@reddit
Also doesn't seem like much of an issue for cargo.
HauntingGlass6232@reddit
All of our 767’s and 747-400’s use the CF6 engine with some of those planes just as old as the MD-11. I’m glad they decided to ground the fleet and that FedEx also followed suit. I love the MD-11 and the moment I saw that the engine and pylon had come off the wing I told my coworkers it’s only a matter of time before they ground the fleet and inspect all of them.
CharcoalGreyWolf@reddit
It could also be they’re evaluating maintenance procedure of similar aircraft as well, or structural fatigue of similar parts (e.g, engine pylons), similar to the AA Flight 191 (DC10) investigation.
There’s a lot of possibilities at this point. Either way, smart of them to ground the MD11 temporarily, most if not all of those airframes have years of time, prudent to make sure one of the others suffer a similar flaw if such a flaw exists.
Landon1m@reddit
Thanks
no1ukn0w@reddit
I know one of the mechanics that went from SA to Roswell to get the plane out of storage (same day as the wreck he was sent immediately).
Feisty_History9395@reddit
I doubt they have all that data already. They were just found a couple days ago. I think this is just a typical reaction after a crash to see if its a fleet wide issue or just a problem with one aircraft.
Nasmix@reddit
Fleets are not typically grounded unless there’s a reason to suspect a systemic issue.
This_Elk_1460@reddit
Nearly 30 years after it ceased to exist McDonald Douglas is still wreaking havoc in the aviation industry (and I'm not just talking about the rot they've inflicted on Boeing)
FlakyIllustrator1087@reddit
The Western Global Airline guys are all feelin left out
Initial-Dee@reddit
Interesting that it wasn't an immediate grounding following the accident. FR24 shows 24 MD11 departures out of Louisville over the course of 7 Nov, with the latest being UPS5608 to Chicago.
one-each-pilot@reddit
Money
byerss@reddit
Yes, but also unless you have reason to believe it’s a systemic issue and not a fluke it doesn’t make sense to ground them.
Majakowski@reddit
Pretty sure it would make sense for people that don't want to be sacrificed in a follow-up crash.
CollegeStation17155@reddit
So you think ALL 787s worldwide should have been instantly grounded after the air India’s crash? After all that involved a lot more lives daily.
Majakowski@reddit
Well a certain second 737 Max crash could have been avoided this way but I guess there was some kind of metric to determine whether or not the first accident was important enough to consider such horrifyingly unprofitable consequences.
CollegeStation17155@reddit
Pull up a list of fatal crashes and count the number of them that resulted in an immediate grounding of the fleet. It almost NEVER happens, even when it’s clear that there was a mechanical fault. Yes, suddenly stranding thousands of people and millions of packages for an indefinite period of time while the investigation determines that pressure spraying an angle of attack sensor or leaving a cover off a pitot tube where mud dauber wasps are around is a bad idea MIGHT save lives, it certainly would cost billions to do so.
tickle-my-Crabtree@reddit
Don’t feed the troll brother.
Majakowski@reddit
Well yeah just because something was or wasn't done a certain way in the past certainly means that this is the only right thing to do. I could compile a list of DC-4 or DC-6 crashes and point out that maybe you shouldn't send people into ice clouds to land amidst mountain ranges with nothing more than a scratchy HF signal to a ground station but I guess the fact that it was done nonetheless redeems those who made the decision, "totally worth it" say the charred bone fragments of those aboard.
And it's not even like a decision to ground them would have done the wrong people any harm after finding out the amount of criminal negligence to make sure these accidents (and incidents) happen in the first place. If manufacturers decide to rather put people's lives at risk to save their managers' bonus payments, then the bar for grounding should be so low and the costs to the airlines be fully paid for by the manufacturer that they don't even dare delivering a plane with as much as a dust particle (metaphorical, not literal) on it.
Looking back in history I am even astounded at the confidence and support the manufacturers enjoyed in the first place given how often (spoiler: always) big corporations got away unscathed after creating disasters through negligence and corruption.
latedescent@reddit
Downvoted but 100% accurate
CollegeStation17155@reddit
And this was not an FAA grounding; it was the companies themselves taking the planes out of service as quickly as they could shuffle their schedules to operate without them after a single mechanical failure hull loss. It may have taken them several days to review the records of near misses (that don’t make the news or even get reported up the chain) where a engine problem was caught by maintenance or failure didn’t cause a crash.
Not____007@reddit
Insurance company prob said were not covering you until you fix whatever needs to be fixed
More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit
My guess is these companies are self insured. And it's for a reason.
Mike__O@reddit
Incorrect. FedEx very, VERY nearly got shut down after the Narita crash. Between the 1997 Newark crash and then the Narita crash in 2009, FedEx almost lost their insurance, and with that, the ability to operate.
Constant_League_2970@reddit
How frequent are groundings of a particular aircraft type, even airline specific like this one? Obviously there was the MCAS crashes and airworthiness directives are relatively common, but groundings are not that common right?
(Not talking about poorly functioning airlines, like say West Caribbean)
DaBingeGirl@reddit
It's pretty standard when there's an obvious mechanical or structural issue that caused the incident. A good comparable case is the door plug. The FAA grounded all the 737-9 MAX planes operated by US carriers when it became obvious there was a manufacturing error. The DC-10 was also grounded after American Airlines Flight 191. You just don't see grounding that much because most accidents are the result of human error (either pilot error or bad maintenance).
With MCAS, poor training played a role in those crashes. MCAS is a terrible system that Boeing absolutely should've disclosed, but it was a recoverable situation.
One thing to note, this is UPS and FedEx grounding them, not the FAA, although they're only notable users. Western Global Airlines is still using theirs, but only 4 of their 16 are still in service. My guess is they're concerned about fatigue and want to check for that ASAP.
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
Already at the top of this subreddit. Ya'll really need to spend a few seconds checking if this was already posted before submitting a million reposts when this kind of news comes out.
https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1orf0ls/ups_grounds_entire_md11_fleet_effective/
jamespeopleplay@reddit
Get a life bro
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
Says the person who bothers replying to a comment at 1AM on a Saturday morning...
SequoiaKitty@reddit
🤓
UhhAnxietyy@reddit (OP)
Edit : Received news that FedEx has done the same.
Cyrius@reddit
Article has been updated with FedEx's grounding.
Slow_Investment_2211@reddit
Yup
Designer_Buy_1650@reddit
Was expecting it to be announced yesterday. There’s no choice unless a clear cause specific to that aircraft was determined.