Anon is tired | TheaterFire

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OneSushi@reddit

wahhh wahhhh wahhh the class war is long forgotten!!

Look back at the past 20 years:

> Politics used to be predominantly about economics and less about ad homining the other side

> Gen X came to a consensus that, yes, indeed, Capitalism actually works and while its not perfect it is the only system that at least allows a majority of the population to live with decency.

> Left Wing Politicians in shock – if we aren't going to win people over through left-wing policies by benevolence-baiting the public into another welfare program that actually stagnates development of affected groups – then how ARE we going to win this?

> Le calm internetification of newspaper and journalism – instead of mainstream media's main source of revenue being users paying subscriptions for a routinely source of news, judged by users on their trustworthiness and quality of analysis, they now make the most money through clicks. Politicians saying big words and journalists misinterpreting them nets the politician the most coverage and the journalists the most profit.

> (insert random politician argument) "no I don't think giving a new handout is going to fix the lives of (minority)." Oh, so you hate minorities? *crowd cheers, applauds* Woah... you're... a Nazi!!! *standing ovation*.

> Newsflash | poltician X calls Y a nazi! Popularity polls for politician X and Y increase by 10,000%

> (other debate) "well I actually think >argument<" No, I think "counterargument"

> Newsflash: ...

> "nazi!" "woke!"

> Newsflash: "yummers more clickbait money"

> Politicians: "yummers more coverage"

Flash forward to 2016:

> Trumpification of politics. Its all culture war – not because politicians care (or could even do anything about it), but because its the only way they can get into the spotlight. If they choose NOT to be sensationalistic and culture warring, they risk their opposition monopolizing the spotlight. Its their only choice.

Flash forward to 2025:

> Some Millenials grow up, Gen Z grows in counterculture to millenial bullshit:

> "we want to talk about the economy again!"

> Millenial culture warriors realizing they're losing the culture war:

> "we want to talk about the economy again!"

> The silly and mischievous newspaper:

> "uhh guys economics talk doesn't make money. Pit fox news against cnn again over and over against each other and make them fight over ridiculous themes."

> "wahhhh ridiculous themes"
If anything politicians aren't even the big manipulative hand here. It is exclusively the media owners. I could not give two shits whatever group people conspire them to be. But they're actively running the country into the ground by shifting the spotlight from the economy to bullshit all to maximize their profits.

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Slide-Maleficent@reddit

> Gen X came to a consensus that, yes, indeed, Capitalism actually works and while its not perfect it is the only system that at least allows a majority of the population to live with decency.

No, they didn't - and no, it doesn't. This is for the simple, yet complex, reason that no economic absolute 'works'.

All attempted economic systems focus on the accumulation of capital through value expansion. Accumulation of capital leads to economic centralization - whether it does this under a '5 year plan' or corporate ownership. In a finite world that forms a closed system, economic centralization leads inevitably to economic stagnation under all possible scenarios. There is a limited amount that can be accomplished in limited space with limited resources and inherently limited brainpower.

While we don't necessarily know the upper limit of any of these factors yet, it is an absolute that they are limited. A market-based system, whether controlled from the top by design or by accident must expand to sustain. It cannot do this infinitely. Any system based on profit motive and competition, a thing we have never really found an alternative to - whether this be the profit of the government or the profit of individuals - will collapse upon itself and require a full reset of it's value concept at some point in time.

This is a 'wicked problem,' one that has no real solution. Government regulations and 'Democratic Socialism' are an attempt to slow this trend - not stop it.

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OneSushi@reddit

But censoring them or trying to regulate them won't work either. It is sutpid to try to control journalists, that will always backfire.

The way is to just accept impending doom and be as rational as possible on your own, without resorting to the mass psyops.

Note: "wahhhh class consciousness" is, you guessed it, another psyop. Look at the cat meme. They just want you to vote for more regulations so monopolistic corporations can corner the market more. It is peak cronyism. They want the stupid people who think that the way to get rid of a monopoly is to apply regulations that protect the people and harm the business. But the big business can always tank the harm. The smal business can't. They go bankrupt. And the big business owns it all again.

The only way is to actively decrease the size of the government and limit its powers en masse. That way, there is nothing to control. There is no super-capitalistic (NOT to be interpreted as "extremely" capitalistic, but rather, "above" capitalistic) power to exert any influence. People free of oppression are people with a small government that can't do harm while deluded it is good.

The one way to solve it is to be like Milei from Argentina.

Think about how great the United States would be if Milei was here. Chainsawing away all the control that the government has over the people. People may have convinced you that this is bad. Its not. How will Nancy Pelosi do insider trading when the government no longer controls the market. New initiatives will bloom left and right and society will bloom. Alternatives to Monopolies will rise.

The only powers that the government should exert are the powers of arresting criminals. And crimes should be focused mostly on, you know, things against humanity, like killing and robbing. There will not be insane market regulations that only monopolies can thrive in. Corporatism/Cronyism will be done for when the government is unprotitable to even be lobbied, for how weak they are.

And then the US will shine.

(of course, all forms of handouts and food stamps will be completely gone. Borders will be open, too. You can not have open borders without first evaporating all welfare.

Only then will rationalism prevail. In fact, all forms of cultural innefficiencies like racism and etc will be eradicated because capitalism evaporates society straight from solid to gas. It makes it transparent. My source? The communist manifesto. This part is Marx' early praise of the capitalism system, and how it evaporated the mysticism and futile practices of feudalism and also majorly served towards secularization.

Anyaways I went on too long.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

"End the culture war and unite in the class war!" mfs when you ask them to concede any of their culture war positions:

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

yeah because conceding immigation issues definitely made the right less violently hateful and more willing to unite...

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

when did the left, liberals, or democrats, as a whole or even in their general sentiment concede on immigration in recent time? (and don't say Bernie Sanders gave credit to Trump on immigration recently because he got a ton of hate for that from the left)

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mangeiri@reddit

Biden and Democrats put up a bipartisan border bill in 2024 that was considered the most ambitious piece of immigration legislation ever.

Republicans pivoted and shot down the bill they helped write, after Trump told them to shitcan it so he could continue campaigning on Democrats being weak on the border.

Keep acting like you’re some expert on the matter, though.

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blockneighborradio@reddit

Oh that $112 billion bipartisan border bill that allocated $60 billion to Ukraine, $12 billion to Isreal, $10 billion for Palestine and the West Bank, $5 for Indio-pacific nations?

More than 3/4 of it going to foreign nations unrelated to border security, gee I wonder why it got shit-canned by republicans

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Mesarthim1349@reddit

Biden opened the border to more people than any president in American history

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The_Knife_Pie@reddit

Wow there might just be crossover between this statement and the fact Biden’s attempt at a border control bill got shot down.

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Mesarthim1349@reddit

It was a poor solution to a problem that he, personally, created.

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mangeiri@reddit

You have no idea what you're talking about and are just regurgitating right wing media talking points. Enjoy being part of the psyop.

Breaking Down the Immigration Figures - FactCheck.org

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Mesarthim1349@reddit

There's no secret the border crossings were highest during his presidency. Your link shows literally nothing lol.

All these numbers are from US Customs

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Mitchel-256@reddit

Biden wasn't capable of making a ham sandwich during his term. The problem and "solution" were made by the puppet masters that spent 4 years with their hands up his ass.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

how is that conceding on the culture war in regards to the class war when the politicians themselves are obviously not the class that's meant to unite when the "class war" is referenced

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mangeiri@reddit

Lmao quite the word salad attempt at a strawman. You asked :

when did the left, liberals, or democrats, as a whole or even in their general sentiment concede on immigration in recent

I answered with objective fact. Cope.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

A bill that also gave 90 billion in foreign aid. Politicians aren't the "class" that's supposed to unite in the "class war." So that's not an example of anyone on the left compromising their values in the class war.

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mangeiri@reddit

Keep moving those goalposts. You asked:

when did the left, liberals, or democrats, as a whole or even in their general sentiment concede on immigration in recent time?

You’re demonstrably wrong. Best case you’re a disingenuous clown arguing in bad faith and will do so until the sun explodes. Worst case you’re a complete moron who is neck deep in the psyop gulping down whatever kool aid the global right wing “conservative” party slops into your trough.

Either way you’re a complete waste of oxygen.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

In the context of a class war, so politicians don't really count.

They also shot down another border bill that the Republicans would've said was more effective and put up this bill that was less so and also included 90 billion in foreign aid. Talk about bad faith when your example is clearly a faux attempt at immigration policy made after shooting a stronger one down so they either implement a weaker policy and say "Hey we already did it, no need to go further." or go "Hey look they don't actually care, they just don't like us." while plugging in a bunch of other stuff that they wanted.

With the democrat politicians' attitude towards immigration and the anti-ice protests, it doesn't seem to me that the left is conceding on immigration.

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

I'm sure I'm sure that if the democrats gave up gay marriage then Donald Trump will raise the capital gain tax. Oh sorry was living alongside brown people too high a cost for universal healthcare, low rent, a right to be housed, and better worker protections?

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Rusty_Restraints@reddit

You're replying to a caricature of a southern trump supporter that you made up in your head. That's what you people do. It's what soldiers do to make it easier to kill also.

I'm not that dude. I'm sorry you see everything in black and white. It's destroying our country. I hope you can learn to critical think again.

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

oh please, is living alongside trans people and brown people such a bad idea if you means that if you get sick or lose your job, that you'll have free healthcare and won't be homeless?

Like I said appeasing oppressors begets more oppression, there's nothing to gain from becoming more right wing on any issue. It's not like Farage or Trump will promise a to make capital gains tax equal to income tax (a really basic and not very radical reform) if I say "Okey I'm sorry I'm give up gay marriage and migration."

but if you're okay with seeing gay people kiss in public every once in a while then getting a Zohran Mamdani type in office can make life way way easier for you.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

So "ending the culture war" just means the right concedes on all cultural issues to support the left's economic ideas?

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

broke your brain ig.

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JustAnotherGlowie@reddit

Dude sorry but saying and doing are completely different things people apparently cant differentiate anymore. It isnt worth shit if Starmer or Biden said the border must be secure if the numbers dont show it. Besides, securing the border is a fight against the ultra wealthy as they are the ones benefitting from either immigrant exploitation or from the divide generated by cultural conflicts.

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

You do realise that if migrants had the legal rights to work, and pay taxes, and the same legal protections as citizens, then employeers wouldn't be able to pay them slave wages and wouldn't replace local workers?

Likewise many industries are dependent on migrant labour, so rather than killing the industries we depend on and tormenting refugees and migrants, make migrants entitled to a real wage, take money out of the pockets of the megacorporations who got comfortable exploiting migrants.

Migrants can be your labour allies. The corporations have used the law to weaponise migrants into a tool against local labour, and you're taking the bait and attacking the wrong people. If you let them work, migrants cost the taxpayer far less than people born locally in a lifetime, they help against our declining population, and they do jobs that local people won't, they pay taxes to support the elderly, public infrastructure, healthcare, and schooling.

Take a look at advanced countries that locked down on migration like Japan and Korea. Those countries are dying, their populations are declining and are now almost unrecoverable, each worker is forced to work more and more hours to make ends meet whilst trying to support the aging population and the increasing proportional burden of public infrastructure.

The UK and US have kept themselves from becoming that precisely because of migration. The law should be changed to reap the benefits, not to send migrant to camps or rwanda for more than it'd cost to have them integrate into society

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JustAnotherGlowie@reddit

The immigration benefits you are talking about are from sufficiently educated migrants that try to integrate themselves into society. I am talking about the many many completely unskilled migrants from muslim countries that do not integrate themselves. In Germany only 54% of refugees that arrived since 2015 have a job. Even tho these people can work after 6 months even without having their asylum granted. Thats because 75% have zero professional skills and 35% are iliterate in their own language. For the US you are right, give them workers rights and the wealthy lose their benefits. But Europe is different. The wealty love the devide their fucked immigration system creates. It distracts from class problems and turnes the whole continent right wing. But just because they created a fire as distraction doesnt mean shit isnt actually burning. We need educated and integrating migrants ONLY otherwise the outcome is even worse, working more and more hours to support the elderly and the migrants.

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

you have to be clever to get the benefits in more complicated situations but I still think it's doable, cultural integration is a very multifaceted issue that I don't know enough about but reducing economic barriers and making it possible to be economicly independence can reduce conclaves, cultural shifts can reduce social barriers. A very large unskilled workforce is not a big issue if the state creates jobs. State jobs are an extremely underutilised tool for reducing unemployment and can be a very effective way to improve infractructure and the job market tends to be oversaturated in high skilled labour in countries like Germany and Sweden so for native citizens it's also an effective way to reduce unemployement. upskilling an unskilled workforce for these jobs is far far cheaper than the cost of education for a native citzen and despite what a lot of people think they're just as economically stimulating. Importantly if migrants are employed along side native citizens in state jobs then they're very likely to culturaly integrate.

so 3 things:

implementing various techniques and incentives to reduce conclaves

low skill job creation by the state which can provide a large workforce for state projects and integrate migrants

decrease in cultural resistance to migration.

If your social values involve telling other people what they can wear, how to live their lives, what religion they can/can’t be, what medical procedures they’re allowed to have, who they’re allowed to marry, or telling other people at all that they can’t do things that literally have 0 effect in your life, then your social values deserve to be abandoned.

This goes doubly if your social values involve telling other people that they are lesser, or trying to remove people’s legal rights, due to their race, gender, sex, identity, orientation, etc.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

Obviously none because they're all so apparently evil. Stop talking about ending the culture war if all it means is one side getting free reign to push their cultural issues and the other giving up every position they have. I'm not trying to convince you that conservative social values are good, you obviously wouldn't be convinced. I'm saying all the "end the culture war" bs is disingenuous and it's just a way of trying to get the other side to drop all their social issues to align themselves with your own economic issues.

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Kicooi@reddit

Here’s the thing, is the left doesn’t give a shit if the right keeps their social values. We just dont want you pushing that shit into law. And we disagree that refusing to show other human beings basic respect is a “social value”. But typical, you can’t name one actual issue that you feel would actually benefit you for the left to concede.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

So then stop calling to end the culture war if you don't want to compromise on anything. That's not ending a culture war, that's asking the other side to surrender.

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Kicooi@reddit

don’t want to compromise on anything

??? Where tf did you get that. You can’t coherently list even a single issue that you want the left to drop, and now your reading comprehension is wildly off base.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

You could say DEI, transgenderism, opposition to family values, promoting LGBT in media, letting in infinite immigrants, anti-religion, anti-whites, anti-men, abortion. There's a few "culture war" issues that the left doesn't want to concede even if it meant unification in a proposed class war. You could say some is more policy or legality or social, but in a general "cultural issue" sense, I think that counts.

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Kicooi@reddit

You people are insufferable. Pick the most important to you out of this list, and explain what the left conceding on that point actually means, and how it would materially benefit you.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

Abortion.

Stop voting to keep abortion legal.

It would benefit me because less infants would be killed and I think that it is bad when that happens.

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Kicooi@reddit

I’m glad you picked abortion, because abortion is the perfect example of something the left has already agreed to compromise on, and we can see how that slippery slope has led to abortion now being outlawed.

But let’s look at how the left is willing to compromise:

No one wants abortions to happen, not even the left. That’s why the left wants to enact laws that make abortions unnecessary, such as easy access to birth control, better sex education, female emancipation (which allows women to exist in society without having to be reliant on a man, which helps decrease unwanted pregnancies), as well as better social programs for caring for children once they’re born, such as free education and free food, free healthcare, and extended maternity leave.

All of these things that would materially improve the lives of women and children, as well as decrease the number of abortions (legal or otherwise), are things that the right is against.

Furthermore, right wing interests pay right wing politicians to make up lies about the left and their stance on abortion, so it inevitably circles back to a class warfare thing anyway. The upper class has an interest in keeping people impoverished while forcing the birth rate to go up. Making abortion illegal while also doing nothing to improve the material conditions of women and children works toward serving these upper class interests.

The right refuses any compromise in this regard because they are funded by the other side of this class war.

I think you’ll find that a lot of right wing “social values” are exploited in this way by the upper class to serve their own interests.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

Unless they start voting to outlaw abortion, at least in cases that aren't rape, incest, threat to life of the mother, etc, I won't consider it a "compromise" from the left.

What do you mean it doesn't materially benefit me? I want less innocent people to die unnecessarily. Do I need money to go in my bank account to "materially benefit?"

Although I come off snippy, I think your reply is well-intentioned and reasonable, so I'll acknowledge as much.

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Kicooi@reddit

I’ll give you an example of what I mean by material benefit.

I am against discrimination, because laws or social norms that are used to discriminate against a group that I am not a part of, can then be used to discriminate against groups that I am a part of. Therefore, outlawing discrimination against others provides a material benefit to me, in that it also outlaws discrimination against me.

You may feel that abortion is wrong (except for the cases you listed, which many right wing politicians would disagree with you on your exceptions, btw) but actually outlawing abortion does absolutely nothing to benefit you.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

I don't agree with those exceptions either, but if the left were to outlaw abortion with those exceptions, I'd consider that a meaningful compromise.

I don't see the point in the distinction you're trying to make. I might as well say you shouldn't care if Japan sinks because it wouldn't "materially harm" you unless your favorite anime stopped being produced or you buy a lot of their products.

I think it is good if less innocent people die.

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Kicooi@reddit

I also think it’s good if less innocent people die, which is why I am for improving the material conditions of women and children (which would also long term improve my own material conditions by improving the economy and the level of education of those around me). However, the right is against improving material conditions, saying that society is bad, rugged individualism is good, and things like free school lunches are “evil socialism.”

If you can’t articulate how something will actually improve your material conditions or the material conditions of society, then it seems like you’re just reacting based on vibes. Which side is it again that’s supposed to be “facts before feelings”?

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

I'm not against improving material conditions for people. I'm against killing infants in the womb. The material benefit is that less infants would be dead. It doesn't have to personally affect me in the way you're asking for me to care. Society would be benefitted because less people in it would be killed. This is quite simple.

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Kicooi@reddit

So why do you vote for politicians who preach that improving material conditions is “evil socialism”?

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

Why do you vote for politicians who release violent criminals after 12 seconds in prison? Does that improve the material conditions of women and children?

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DEI just a things some companies do, trans people just exist you're the ones who want to control them, opposition to family values? the left isn't stopping anyone from having their family values, just a meaningless buzzword. abortion, again this is about the right controlling womens bodies, whether you even think of a fetus as a person it's agreed that you don't have to dedicate your body to keeping another person alive. anti-men? patriarchy hurts men too, this is just a media lie. anti-white, again this is just a completely stupid thing to believe, name a single "anti-white" policy that isn't just fake.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

A thing some companies do that the left supports that gives unfair advantages to certain groups. Trans people also push things like puberty blockers for kids and trans people in sports and it is a cultural issue when you have people running around trying to change the basic definitions of words and fundamental roles in society. The left doesn't have to physically castrate anyone to be culturally against family values. Abortion isn't anymore about controlling women's bodies than a law against murder is about controlling potential murderer's bodies. If you get pregnant and form a child in your body, yes , I think you do have to dedicate your body to keeping it alive. A significant part of the left is very clearly anti-men and anti-white, it doesn't have to be a written policy when I'm talking about cultural issues.

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

"The left doesn't have to physically castrate anyone to be culturally against family values." what the fuck are you talking about grandpa?

DEI programs are what companies what then to be, they think it will help them be profitable, maybe some give unfair adavantages, doubtful though since diversity quotas aren't really a thing and the few cases that they have existed have been greatly exaggerated.

Puberty blockers save the lives of trans kids, they have a lower regret rate than pretty much every other medication out there. you just think it's better for them to be miserable and suicidal than trans.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

They don't have to literally stop someone to be culturally against family values.

They give unfair advantages to certain groups.

You could just make it so that they're not suicidal or dysphoric.

You don't give in and let your kid drink whiskey because "Mom, if you don't let me, I'll jump off our roof."

You shouldn't tell them that they're the opposite gender and you'll help them align their body and identity with what they feel just because they might be sad for a while. Especially when people who go through with that change still kill themselves at a high rate.

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hjc135@reddit

Transgenderism isn't a leftist thing being pushed, it's a tiny minority of people who are trans and just want to live. The left aren't trying to make changes in law regarding this, the right are.

The left aren't advocating for changes to law that would affect anyone else's lives. The right are advocating for changes that would remove this again tiny minority of people from simply being able to live.

The rest of your points for the majority the left again do not want anything that would change the law and legally prevent you from doing anything, or from keeping your own beliefs.

It would be fully possible to while disagreeing with others choices put these things aside to focus on a larger issue that hurts both sides for a time.

If the left were to do this the right would change the law regarding many of these issues in a way that does not allow them to keep their own beliefs or in cases such as trans people even just live.

LukeJaywalker0@reddit

"make all medication for children illegal"

What? I can't even engage with this. I never said anything even approximating that.

I think you shouldn't be allowed to kill your own baby and waking up mysteriously hooked into a random stranger is not equivalent to becoming pregnant. I don't think you should have the right to kill a child you formed through your own actions. (but what about my 1% of abortions due to rape?) If you would concede outlawing all the other ones, that'd be a start, but I bet you won't.

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

there is no arguement for making puberty blockers, a life saving medication, illegal that couldn't be used for 90% of other medicines.

When does life being btw? most fertilised embryos doesn't even implant in the womb, are those all tragic lifes lost? people that should be given a funeral? how is being forceably connected to them to keep them alive any different? what if it happened because it's a motorrace, you have an accident and now a spectator is connected to you? but fundamentally it's not about the "infant" you don't even think it's a person.

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LukeJaywalker0@reddit

There actually is because puberty blockers for the purpose of treating gender dysphoria is preventing a normal, natural, necessary process in order to try and help a child who is too young to get a tattoo become something they can never be. You can't handwave off the effects of being physically and psychologically behind all your peers for that period of your life.

just learn to code bro

Are you arguing that leftists shouldn't? No war but class war isn't a call for minorities to give up on their rights, it's a call for people to stop listening to narritive that scapegoat problems onto minorities and put their attention towards fighting the ecconomic oppressors.

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

No war but class war isn't a call for minorities to give up on their rights, it's a call for people to stop listening to narritive that scapegoat problems onto minorities and put their attention towards fighting the economic oppressors.

The irony of the same leftists who unironically say that "it's impossible to be racist against white people" insist that only the right scapegoats other identity groups for their problems. Lol.

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King_flame_A_Lot@reddit

well youre the target of the psyop and its demonstrably working on you. What are you without your hate?

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

You won't find many leftists who actually preach that. It's possible to be racist to white people interpersonally, there are even some (if few) places which are structurally racist to white people. The actually held belief is that in many countries white people are so structurally advantaged and that real racial discrimination against white people is practically non-existent.

I would actually go as far to say that in most countries misandry is a real problem and anti-white racism isn't. Misandry is also something unfairly attributed to leftists when it's a symptom of patriarchy. Systemically and socially women may have it on average worse and therfore men are privledged over women, but men are also oppressed by patriarchy.

I want you to see the through line here, both are cases where leftists want to change a system which oppresses people, but through cherry picking weirdos, or constructing a false narritive the media convinces people that the goal is to oppress men, or oppress white people, even though the deconstruction of patriarchy and systemic racism would certainly improve the lives of men and white people.

Fighting for the oppressed doesn't make the privledged the enemy. The enemy remains the oppressors, the paid off lawmakers, the olicarchal billionares, the corrupt system and those who oppress minority groups to distract from the injustices the wealthy elite carry out every second.

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

You won't find many leftists who actually preach that.

You'll find even fewer leftists who stand up to the ones who do preach it and say "Of course you can be racist against white people, the fuck are you weirdos talking about?", because they're afraid that they'll be labeled as racist themselves by their fellow leftists if they do stand up to the crazies on their own side.

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TheSwedishEzza@reddit

that's just conjecture. I've been plently of leftist spaces and anytime someone says that they're immedietly met with disagreement. The mainstream leftist position is that even if there isn't systemic racism against white eople you can absolutely be interpersonally recist againt them.

Isn't the no.1 leftist stereotype that they're alwasy arguing? No leftist is afraid of disagreeing and being labelled racist. Those who claim to be afraid tend to be people with actually racist positions trying to create a narritive that benefits them. Systemic racial anaylsis couldn't exist if leftists were so terrified or talking abour controvertial race topics.

The idea that you would have a mild resonable disagreement and be labelled "problematic" and be ostracised from whatever leftist groupt you're in, let alone all leftists, is a ficticious belief.

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ibench-1pounds@reddit

Dude ur fighting a ghost right now. Why are you bringing up twitter talking points when no one even brought the idea that it’s impossible to be racist to white people. You’re literally bad faith lmao

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destiper@reddit

Absolutely not, actual leftists have always fought for LGBT+ liberation but understand that these kinds of oppression are inseparable from class struggle

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

these kinds of oppression are inseparable from class struggle

Well idk what the intention of the other dude was but it kinda is if you believe what i said. I mean, it’s all kinda part of it really. Like anything that people are willing to spend time engaging with is a part of it because it’s a tactic to divide/distract people.

And then you’ve conflated those leftists with liberals who spend all their time with liberal identity politics, but not actually recognising the development of capitalism as the root cause of the social issues they care about

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

liberal identity politics

Lmao. Leftists are the ones obsessed with identity politics, not liberals.

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NickDB8@reddit

bro did NOT do the reading 🤣

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_bassGod@reddit

Excellent. We've boiled down the problem to one sentence. That sentence is wrong.

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SuspiciousRelation43@reddit

Really? Because other than Hasan Piker paying lip service to the idea of cultural issues being a distraction, it’s the moderate democrats like Fetterman who are far more inclined to compromise both on economic and social issues.

Not actually recognising the development of capitalism as the root cause of the social issues they care about

Ah, there it is, the smoothbrain double-speak of “Liberals are obsessed with identity politics, not me!” and also “Being communist is actually the most effective way to agitate for identity politics!”.

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torolf_212@reddit

Right. Its like saying anyone who wants to tax businesses less is literally a MAGA fassist. Just because the US political spectrum is blue coolaid or red coolaid doesn't mean that the actual people dont have nuanced views

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DeceptiveDweeb@reddit

Your literally the leftist in your original comment. When someone says liberal or leftist dont imagine the whole shopping list of ideas you can attack, you need to think of them as a someone else's label for you.

For instance to some you might be considered a conservative but you dont agree with funding itsrael. You can see your side for having character complexity but not the opposite, you are engaging in the culture war YOURSELF.

In shorter words, goomba fallacy. Liberals come from enlightenment era, leftists are defined solely by being the opposite of rightist. (There is no definition for rightist.)

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destiper@reddit

A position on left/right axis is defined by advocacy for a particular economic system. Anyone left of the ‘centre’ is categorically a socialist, anyone right of it is a proponent of capitalism. Liberals are on the right.

MonkeManWPG@reddit

This is reminiscent of a ridiculous trope from the right-wing that they would totally become socialists (or at least stop throating billionaires) if liberals/leftists just abandoned one more minority and focused on the "real issues". Conveniently, they leave out the bit where they don't give a shit about the "real issues" either, they just want carte blanche to hurt people they don't like.

Case in point: "if Kamala Harris had focussed on affordable housing instead of trans people, I would have voted for her" - except that Harris did have a plan for affordable housing including billions in investment, first-time-buyer assistance, and rent assistance, and she practically didn't talk about trans people. Meanwhile, Trump ran on the idea that Harris was obsessed with trans rights, and once in office he slashed what funding existed for those housing programmes. So who really cares about getting people on the property ladder?

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

This is reminiscent of a ridiculous trope from the right-wing that they would totally become socialists (or at least stop throating billionaires

Southern conservatives, currently the core of the MAGA movement, overwhelmingly supported FDR, the closest thing we've had to a socialist president, before the Democratic Party went all in on social justice issues

You call it a "ridiculous trope" and yet it was actual reality like 80 years ago.

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MonkeManWPG@reddit

80 years ago, people wouldn't have called wanting the president to face justice for raping children "derangement syndrome".

before the Democratic Party went all in on social justice issues

Except that Biden didn't campaign on Trans rights for his 2020 run and has always been reasonable about the topic unlike, once again, the way Republicans paint the Democrats. https://19thnews.org/2024/07/white-house-statement-gender-affirming-surgery-minors/

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MonkeManWPG@reddit

On top of that, in our increasingly online world, people are starting to conflate what terminally online people are saying with what the party lines actually are.

This is deliberately made worse by the fact that the media companies are owned by right-wing oligarchs. They literally control the narrative and between the platform control and their bot farms, they can amplify this idea that the left are all coming for your son's penis while pointing to fake sock-puppet accounts.

For example: during Grok's Mecha-Hitler phase, it spent a lot of time obsessing over an account with a Jewish surname that made a tweet about white children dying being a good thing. The person behind that account didn't exist; it was purely made to incite anti-semetism and push the narrative that the left hates white people.

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

You're trying to act like Kamala Harris existed in a vacuum. She did not. People judged her within the context of the party she was the nominee of.

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MonkeManWPG@reddit

Are you suggesting that Harris was some kind of an outlier in an otherwise culture-war obsessed Democratic party? Neo-liberalism is hardly uncommon for the Dems. The more left-wing politicians like Bernie are the curveballs.

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

No I'm suggesting that voters judged her by the context of the party she was the nominee of and not as one individual running for president in a vacuum.

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PackOfManicJackals@reddit

Telling leftists to stop fighting the culture war is like telling ukraine to stop fighting the war against russia. We'd love to, but also a lot of us are kind of under direct attack?

Most leftists are NOT trying to steamroll the right with their social stances the way your comment implies. A lot of right wing social commentary amounts to "mexicans are drug dealing illegals and trans people are pedophiles and we need to imprison them!" A lot of leftist social commentary amounts to "please leave social minorities the hell alone so we can focus on real problems like corporate-greed-induced artificial scarcity". This leftist "contribution" to the culture war is literally an attempt to redirect attention to the class war, that right-wingers for some reason take as an attack on themselves. (These are generalizations, obvi not true for every single person's stance, but its about the average of what ive observed)

TLDR; if youre walking down the street, and a guy comes up to you repeatedly and keeps trying to punch you, and you push him to keep him away from you, are you part of the issue for engaging?

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JustAnotherGlowie@reddit

The left was psyoped into this cultura war thinking. It all started with the frankfurt school and critical theory. They claimed the revolution must come from within societal structures and by breaking all of them down total equality can be achieved without challenging the capitalists.

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Futureman999@reddit

They're like elderly Fox News viewers who have it on ALL DAY. They never cared much about politics before, but now they're all in politics nuts who never shut up about it, and vote in every election exactly how Fox tells them to.

Just keep us fighting about gay stuff one percenters, and you can rule us like mole men

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MindGoblin@reddit

Are you stuck in 2015 timeloop? Nobody is more obsessed with culture warring today than the right.

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IlIIllIIIlllIlIlI@reddit

Or possibly you fell for the psyop

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I don’t think I’ve even heard leftists really say that to begin with, but I suppose you have a deep argument against those semantics. Great find.

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Derpy_Derpingson@reddit

It's not semantics, it's acknowledging the reality that class issues are not the only political issues that exist.

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Most social arguments are Team 1 vs Team 2 dynamics.

"If only Team 1 (democrats, women, blacks, jews, people who like guns, people who want to tax the rich) could be in charge, instead of Team 2 (republicans, men, whites, whoever is killing the jews this time, people against guns, people don't want to tax the rich) then everything would be better."

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Coolium-d00d@reddit

Well it is if you put it in those terms.

Socialism is literally built of off the idea that there exists an ongoing class struggle between capitol owners and the proletariat and everything should be viewed from that lense.

?? Rich is quite literally economic politics. And they are pro being whatever you want to be. If you want to be trans as a kid go for it, (as far as permanent surgery, that’s a different issue.) most of the things the left fights against are ideologies or economic classes, not identities. They fight against the rich, gun rights, for abortion, etc.

This is still using the group 1 vs group 2 strategy, but it’s just different boogie men.

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futurettt@reddit

So being poor is an identity, but being rich isn't? This comment makes absolutely no sense. Leftist politics has long departed from economic policies, being commandeered by corporate interests to focus instead on social/identity politics. Do you identify yourself as an ally to all lifestyles, regardless of their effect on the individual or society? Trans kids is a perfect example of this.

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Smurtle01@reddit

Why the fuck do I care if a kid wants to say they are trans or not?

If you are talking about the literal boogie man that is the tiny vocal minority (SUPER SMALL) that say they should be able to get surgery before 18, or take hormones, then you are eating the bait/grift hard. Any sane human knows you shouldn’t let kids permanently mess with their bodies like that, just like they can’t get tattoos when kids either. You believing that’s part of the wider lefts agenda shows how hard you ate into the us vs them game.

I also never said that being poor is an identity. I also never said the right only engages in identity politics. I just said that they do it more than the left, as far as making them the scary thing the other side does/has/says. They attack trans/gay/immigrants. They make them into these scary sounding things that are destabilizing society to its core. It’s all fear mongering. You find a marginalized group and try and beat them down.

Attributing all of the lefts ideologies to Marxism is extremely reductive and absolutely foolish. The majority of people on the left are for better gun regulations.

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DeltaT37@reddit

his next point is going to be about immigration lol there's no other point conservatives make in 2025 except immigration and trans kids

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Njorord@reddit

Can I ask what you mean?

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Nblearchangel@reddit

Republicans at large are so devoid of critical thinking, empathy and the ability to formulate new ideas based on new information… yes. The person above me is correct. I can safely write off every republican at this point as too dumb to function in a functioning society.

If you think trump, MTG, Matt gaetz, Stephen miller… banon. Rusch Limbaugh. Screaming fat man Alex jones. Ben Shapiro. Candace Owens. Jordan Peterson. If those views are appealing to you and you think they should be models for a free thinking society and you watch fox news unironically…. I’m sorry, but I have no time for you.

Private_Gump98@reddit

Eradication?

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Njorord@reddit

Elimination, deletion, suppression. Not in a "let's gather them all and shoot them" but, in a "let's oppress them hard and make it as difficult as possible to exist".

I'm talking specifically about the latino and trans communities. I'm not trans, but I am gay and I consider an attack on transgender individuals as an attack on my community.

Unless you mean the Republican party just isn't targeting those groups at all, in which case I don't even know what to tell you.

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Dravicores@reddit

On the one hand politically extreme takes are deeply harmful to society, but on the other hand it’s hard to justify anything other than an inherit animosity given the circumstances.

Republicans, and by extension their supporters, are actively attempting to create a world where me, people like me, and the people in my life don’t have a place. They seek my eradication, and aren’t bothered by overriding the democracy that’s been painstakingly built over centuries to do it. Republicans shouldn’t inherently be my enemy, but they’ve already decided that I am theirs. Sure many republicans might not outwardly support that, but in voting for it you support it all the same.

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Deldris@reddit

Behold, Team 1 vs Team 2 dynamics.

You put everyone on the right on the same team, forming your opinion based on politicians. If I did the same the other way around, I would claim things like "Dems just want to tax the rich and live off welfare for an easy live with no effort."

I'm not saying these optics are the same in negative view, I'm trying to make a point that you don't actually hate your average republican person and they don't hate you. You're assigning anyone you deem on the right to be a charatecture of a politician.

Genuinely ask yourself, has any republican in your actual life treated you this way? Or do you just think they would because of what politicians and the media say?

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DeltaT37@reddit

you're such a clown lol. You aren't getting actively targeted by the administration so you have no way to visualize how anybody could be hurting. Yes, for your information, more and more republicans are feeling more and more confident to spew their hatred and violence in public and private channels, not just "the media"

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Deldris@reddit

I guess myself and everyone I know are just lucky to live near reasonable republicans while everyone else is cursed to have the worst examples possible live next to them.

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DeltaT37@reddit

Or you and the people you know are not affected yet, so you don't really see what they're like lol this aint that hard to understand.

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Deldris@reddit

I live in one of the top 5 worst housing and grocery markets in the country. People need to go a state over for weed and abortions.

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Magistricide@reddit

Can you find one genuine article where a group of democrats said "I want to kill babies"

Because I can find many, many articles and videos where republican officials loudly express racist views, not to mention their voters.

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I can find a video of Biden referring to black kids as "roaches". Do the Dems lose now too or does it need to be a certain number of them?

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malfurion1337@reddit

We put everyone who votes for something bad happening to us on the same team, as they realisticly contribute to it happening BY FUCKING VOTING FOR IT. If the current republican admin. send people(even if legally born in the US in many cases) off the street to Guantanamo Bay, WHO gave them the power to do it? THE DIPSHITS WHO VOTED THEM INTO POWER. It doesnt matter if a regular Joe who votes republican isnt the one commiting the social rights violations, if they actively participated in making it a reality BY VOTING FOR IT.

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Dravicores@reddit

No, there have been plenty, both politically and personally, who have in fact threatened my current place in society (that being in society at all), and substantially more so to those I care about in my life.

There’s a fundamental difference between “dems want to raise taxes” and “republicans want to end gay marriage”. Even if they’re both taken at face value, one is a lot more personally harmful.

Whether it be Supreme Court justices such as Clarence Thomas openly advocating for the overturning of obergefell, Trump explicitly banning people in my life from serving in the military, relatives who have lost their government jobs because they were accused of being DEI (the curse of being women), or even just listening to myself and those I know being called unnatural. My sister lost her right to an abortion this year, my friends worry if they’ll be abducted by ICE because they’re Latino, it never ends. Not only am I directly at risk because of Republican talking points, but me and people in my life are being hurt. The mainline Republican Party consistently has employed a strategy of dehumanizing and scapegoating groups, and it’s actively affecting my day to day life. Fuck me I can’t think of a single queer friend who hasn’t been called a slur by recently emboldened republicans. There are national guard in my city and ICE in my neighborhood. They’re everywhere I go, and I do not appreciate my home being used as a political stage for a non existent problem.

This doesn’t even mention the economic issues that the current republicans are forcing onto me and my family, which are only going to get worse. Relatives who aren’t going to get SNAP soon because republicans want to explicitly deny my best friends healthcare, and won’t take anything less from democrats. My friends who work for the government aren’t being paid, and there are republicans actively pushing legislation so that they won’t receive back pay.

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DumbNTough@reddit

Both benefit but not equally. First premise false, argument unsound.

You wouldn't expect people to benefit equally from performing different jobs.

Nor is it guaranteed that a business owner benefits more than his employees. If the business is not going well, he will profit little. If it goes very badly, he may lose all the resources he put into it, but employees still get paid unless and until the business closes.

You don't even understand how to run a fucking convenience store yet you believe you hold the keys to remaking the entire world. You're a poser.

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NotNonbisco@reddit

Silence, distractor!

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RymrgandsDaughter@reddit

I think this is what happens when you allow companies to purchase the government outright everything else would fall back in line if companies could not form these monopolies and then purchase the government. Alot of the complaints dem politicians have is about lack of donors when they have fed into a system that garuntees no one is gonna give them shit but complaints

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Deldris@reddit

A lot of these companies only have monopolies because of the government. But I do agree that lobbying is one of the worst things this country does.

CynicalYarn@reddit

If you want to get into this topic, look up Ideological Squaring

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Res_Novae17@reddit

We had it in the bag with Occupy Wall Street and you dumb sons of bitches fell for the woke identity politics bear trap that split and cracked us into a bunch of races and genders and sexualities all arguing over who has a harder life and why. It's the final breathtaking irony that the left became the useful idiots of international globalist billionaires who didn't want to share their wealth or power with the hoi polloi. If they had just kept to economic issues we would have brought the whole fucking castle down.

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BaldLivesMatter93@reddit

gif

Occupy wall street

Panama papers

Epstein island

Luigi mangione

Every time someone points out a blatant case of political lobbying (aka bribes)

They're not going to give you any EXAMPLES either, apparently.

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Comfortable-Cry8165@reddit

Those "scandals" quickly get out of control if the ruling elite doesn't spin another narrative or manufacture a crisis.

Historically (and currently with the Gen Z protests), when an incompetent government lets a scandal take hold and masses gather, it either deposes the said government or turns into a bloody conflict.

I know most of you are European and North Americans, so most of you live in a stable democracy (for now at least). But over in the global south, such scandals are almost a yearly occurrence and that's why wars are starting again. There's nothing left to distract other than an outside enemy.

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shroomigator@reddit

Ok. Now cite an example.

Just one fucking example.

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Badnerific@reddit

The example is you. Literally

The psyop was so fucking effective that you look at this list of class consciousness events and are wondering what stopped them. As if the answer isn’t abundantly clear

Consider your own obstinance. Consider your media intake. Consider your sheer disbelief. You are the living, breathing evidence of the psyop

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shroomigator@reddit

I'm not wondering what stopped them. It wasn't "psyops". It was apathy.

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Badnerific@reddit

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Remarkable_Log_5562@reddit

Its gotten to the point where I read a few flat earth threads to completion and thought: ”this is technically possible”. If I don’t see it myself, I won’t 100% believe it.

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MrGulo-gulo@reddit

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Apexrex65@reddit

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UsErNaMeS_aR_DuMb@reddit

Well yes, but why should I care about the economic systems and practices that will shape the lives of untold generations when I have to worry about what a few people who I’m likely never going to see in person are doing with their own lives?

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StrawberryWide3983@reddit

Sure, billionaires are stealing your future, your children's future, and your grandkids' future, but have you considered that a trans person was weird on twitter?

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oni_no_onii-chan@reddit

Uk's richest woman is spending her all money to convince 40 people who take estrogen was the country's biggest issue. And surprisingly it worked.

The last chance we had was occupy wallstreet but it failed because of infighting and a lack of a clear goal. Some say that it was a sabotaged by the wallstreet bankers, but who knows?

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Denpants@reddit

be me

be a dissident leftist/anarchist/tankie/jihadi

decide to riot

walk past the government capitol buildings, courthouses, and synagogue to find a black owned liquor store in the inner city

loot it and burn it down

burn down some section 8 housing buildings and clothing stores

make a pseudo-intellectual Instagram virtue signal post saying "property damage is a necessary sacrifice for liberation. The rich people must be destroyed starting with businesses"

enjoy the free booze and stolen sneakers

wait until next major event to agitate again

if anyone disagrees with this they are automatically deemed a racist sexist rich nazi because they oppose us

It's really that easy! Don't wait, get your free stuff today

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OneSushi@reddit

>be me

>be a dissident

>"haha lets loot apple stores! they have insurnace anyways, its all good!!!"

> At insurance TM HeadQuarters: 'uhh guys we're having to do a bunch of claims and this is going beyond our revenue to be able to cover. We're gonna have to increase our fees and reduce our coverage next year...'

> The next year...

> "wahhhhh why is insurance so expensive!!!!!!!!11!! stupid capitalists! They're raising the prices because they want to increase the profit! This is greedflation!!!"

> The greedflation in question: "damn guys, due to how high our prices are, less people are consuming our product. We are actually not at the profit optimization point. But we have no other way around this – we have to satisfice our business goals in order to cover for the risk of certain years massively outperforming our expectations. We are losing money and less consumers have access to our produce.

> uhhhh Also the new 30,000 government imposed regulations on us by their agenda makes it so only a few insurance companies are actually there, meaning there's not enough firms to be competitive and for the market to have price-making consumers. I'm sure the people thought of that when they decided to approve the next quarters' regulation package with 60,000 new regulations. Oh, there goes another smaller company out of business, and prices rose again. Monopoly time!

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Denpants@reddit

Finally someone gets it. Ive been called a bootlicker so many times for denouncing these riots. My problem isn't that they are starting an insurrection, my problem is that they aren't. Lighting civilian neighborhoods on fire has 0 effect on the politicians and just fucks over poor people.

WintersbaneGDX@reddit

gif

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Carti_Barti9_13@reddit (OP)

Based actually

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In the interest of sergeant Braphog

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Mallixx@reddit

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NotRandomseer@reddit

Most people trying to pull a "class war" narrative are commies.

The fundamentals of communism are flawed , and attempts at its implementation would certainly lead to countless deaths which would have been preventable. The only thing stopping commies from being viewed as worse than Nazis in my eyes is intent

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hjc135@reddit

I feel most people don't want anything like communism, they just see the absurdly wealthy taking more and more than ever. For example back in the 50's overall people were much more against communism and yet taxes on the mega rich were far harsher than now. Recognizing that the ultra wealthy are taking more and more and won't stop and wanting to change that is a far cry from wanting communism

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Carti_Barti9_13@reddit (OP)

Correct, that is why I’m an anarchist

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NotRandomseer@reddit

Anarchism is as idiotic as statism , when will people understand that extremes are almost never the answer.

Mixed markets work best , there's a reason every country on earth is mixed

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Carti_Barti9_13@reddit (OP)

Enlightened centrist over here

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AmbitiousEconomics@reddit

Just because someone thinks "might makes right" isn't a sustainable model of governance doesn't make them an enlightened centrist lmao.

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Tomachian@reddit

As if capitalism isnt also based on fundamentals that simply only works on paper. Also why such unfounded hate? We are all birds of one flock. Dehumanising them just breed more malice

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I was more talking about stuff like TV, Internet, Heating, Indoor Bathrooms With Working Plumbing, Instant Access To Music, and most importantly, Food

All stuff that can still be taken away, but as long as most of it remains, most people will not attempt to rise up, as they’d risk losing it.

Also, do you really believe that 18th century French peasants actually owned their own land? You’re crazy if you think the average modern American has less stuff these days.

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Legend13CNS@reddit

Another big problem is how far the "line" for classes has been allowed to move downward. I've seen people that have completely lost track of who the real issue is, just because things don't suck as much for other people. Like I've seen a barista making $30k/yr, and living with 2 roommates, thinking someone their same age that's an engineer making $100k/yr is part of the wealthy elite that's ruining society. As long as divisions like that exist it's going to be hard to get people unified behind a message of any kind.

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xena_lawless@reddit

Just work on creating an educated, empowered proletariat.

Trvke

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