9950X3D benchmarked with Process Lasso vs Game Mode/driver
Posted by HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 98 comments
I wrote a popular post on r/AMD when the 7950X3D came out showing that the performance can be majorly improved using Process Lasso and the AMD driver implementation is not nearly as good as it could be. I have done so again with more tests on the 9950X3D.
Essentially, one can use Process Lasso to assign the "CPU Sets" of games to the cache cores and turn off Windows Game Mode to deactivate the driver optimizations.
It's not even close when testing scientifically. It's much worst then I thought. The lows especially.
Multiple trials on each game, took the average (though the results were very consistent). There were some things running in the background because that's the point, to emulate a real world experience with some processes (a static browser window, Discord, Task Manager, and a few others). Background CPU was constistently about 6%.
Used lowest graphics settings to decrease GPU bottleneck.
Results are average/minimum
Far Cry 6 with driver: 221/162
Far Cry 6 with Lasso: 255/225
Cyberpunk with driver: 194/147
Cyberpunk with Lasso: 211/167
Far Cry Primal with driver: 201/161
Far Cry Primal with Lasso: 218/178
Tiny Tina's Wonderland with Driver: 376
Tiny Tina's Wonderland with Lasso: 375
Universe Sandbox with driver: 60 year/sec Universe Sandbox with Lasso on cache cores: 62 year/sec (also way more consistent, less bouncing up and down) Universe Sandbox without any locking: 42 year/sec Universe Sandbox with Lasso on frequency cores: 75 year/sec
Caveats: Most people with this CPU will not be playing on low settings and therefore the difference won't be as stark. But there will be a difference. Only Tiny Tina's Wonderlands didn't see a difference.
And Universe Sandbox is an example of a game that benefits from being locked to the frequency CCD1. I also I know that Minecraft benefits from no optimizations at all, pretty massively, with full access to all cores, when at max rendering distance. I didn't test it this time because I'm very confident in this.
You can see the original 7950X3D post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/11mdalp/detailed_vcache_scheduler_analysis/
xastunts@reddit
it's been 2 months since this post, and id like to know if you have any more feedback to add? I will be getting my 9950X3D in a day or two from now. First thing I will do is format the os drive and a clean win 11 install. latest amd chipset drivers and amd adrenalin latest first to test. i have issues with the latest amd adrenalin drivers on my current 7800X3D cpu and 7900XTX gpu./ hoping that this new cpu will not cause any problem with the latest amd adr driver.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Not really.
What i can tell you though is that many people have had issues with the latest AMD GPU driver, with games crashing.
xastunts@reddit
on latest amd chipset drivers 7.04, and also latest adrenalin 25.5.1. (use to stay at 24.9.1) as any other newer adrenaline version would crash on my previous 7800X3D buil. only tested bo6 warzone and no crashes yet after hours of gaming.
xV_Slayer@reddit
Your PC is not setup correctly. Try again.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Is this a troll?
xV_Slayer@reddit
Why would it be a troll. Your results are so different compared to everyone else including mine it is clear you have no idea what you are doing.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
What results from "everyone else"?
Anything is possible when you make shit up and then lie about it. But yeah, "you're wrong, trust me bro" is certainly a great comeback to someone who's been building PCs and tinkering for many years AND HAS A DEGREE IN COMPUTER SCIENCE AND HAS DESIGNED THEIR OWN PROCESSOR.
That's right. I've created my own CPU design. And you have done what? I did extensive testing using AMD's exact recommended settings and the driver vs Process Lasso, and I've done this exact test before on the 7950X3D.
You definitely don't have results to compare to because you don't have Process Lasso. But yeah, lying is cool.
And looking at your profile, you seem to get off on this behavior of telling other people they're wrong with zero evidence of your own.
xV_Slayer@reddit
So you have no idea what you are doing as I said. What a surprise.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Shove off troll.
_Kai@reddit
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
It is definitely running and I can observe the cores parking. If you look at my Universe Sandbox results it should be more clear that it is working.
I don't need to do this. It's working as intended.
xV_Slayer@reddit
Clearly it isn’t as you have such an outlier compared to everyone else ya clown.
deh2win@reddit
You should send this to Steve from gamer nexus!
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
I actually did. And I did when the 7950X3D came out as well.
xV_Slayer@reddit
You just don’t know how to setup your computer properly.
msalad@reddit
Why is setting the Windows power plan to Balanced necessary?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
It's that by default. High Performance will keep the clocks high and can decrease single-threaded boost clocks due to current limitations.
Gregyski@reddit
While I have the Windows power plan set to Balanced, what about the power plan in Process Lasso? I can't remember if I changed it at some point or if it defaulted to it, but it's set to Bitsum Highest Performance. Do you have that set to Balanced as well?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
I used to have balanced but changed it to Bitsum Highest Performance to test and got, anecdotally, a 2% boost.
I didn't test it very scientifically. A YouTuber did a test with it and it really depends on the game which does better.
VenditatioDelendaEst@reddit
AIUI, the "core parking" "driver" is making off-label use of Windows' (old, abandoned?) scheme for making use of deep C-states, which bring core power to essentially zero but have fairly high wake-up latency.
The original purpose of core parking was to save power in typical mostly-idle desktop workloads by bunching processes onto a small number of cores so that the rest could stay in deep sleep.
YakovAU@reddit
FYI, if a game has an anti cheat, and is a steam game, you can set steam to use the cache cores, which for some reason, makes the steam game follow the rules you set for steam, if you try to set a rule for a game with anti cheat it will reject otherwise.
sssr@reddit
I tried this myself.
My chipset/bios all up to date and game bar was working flawlessly.
After following the instructions with Lasso I can confirm that my fps is much more stable in games. It also utilizes CCD1 cores perfectly for non-game related apps running in the background.
Thank you very much OP this did indeed make a difference for me.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
You'll just have to remember to do it with every game which is annoying.
MoistTour429@reddit
Would you also set CPPC to “frequency” using this method? Or is that kind of default behavior with the chip?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
No, it's the default behavior.
MoistTour429@reddit
Thanks! I was looking into this last night and tried using lasso and the system went completely nuts, I failed to realize that you have to disable game mode 🤦🏻♂️ pretty dumb on my part…. Your post is awesome! Thank you!
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Definitely disable Game Mode.
MoistTour429@reddit
I tested this out quite a bit tonight, at 4k ultra (as GPU bound as could be) i still saw a definite difference in capframex! wont show up on "in game" benchmarks for much more than margin of error, but those frametime charts dont lie! thanks my friend!
Gloomy-Ad3143@reddit
Isn't it logic that lasso is better? With game mode, game and win processes are all dumped to CC0. With lasso, game is using CC0, all other tasks CC1.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Yes, that was the point of my post.
Infamous-Metal-103@reddit
So I should set all other background processes that aren't the game to the non cache cores?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
No. Processes mostly use CCD1 by default anyway. There's no harm in doing so but I think it's a waste of time.
But I will test it to be sure.
Infamous-Metal-103@reddit
Ok man thanks! I tested just doing the game to cache cores like you recommended and it lowered my CPU frametime by about 1.5-2 ms! Descent bump!
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Did you also disable Game Mode?
Infamous-Metal-103@reddit
I wonder if it makes games less prone to stutters as well. That would be good! As I play vr mostly
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
You didn't answer my question lol.
Infamous-Metal-103@reddit
Haha yeh my bad I'm getting muddled like my CPU cores before this fix 😂
Infamous-Metal-103@reddit
Oh sorry yes I disabled it
Infamous-Metal-103@reddit
Yes I did
poorlycooked@reddit
A logical next step is to test again without lasso, and with the CCD1 disabled in BIOS. Basically 9800X3D oc mode
Icy_Scientist_4322@reddit
I am just weird that this obvious truth is something surprising for many.
Morningst4r@reddit
Unless your PC is complete mess of terrible, always running software (like bad RGB software or something), or you're running something meaningful in the background, I really doubt background tasks are making a 10%+ difference.
Prasiatko@reddit
It's more about making sure all the game threads are using the same cache rather than having to move data back and forth between caches.
Aggravating_Ring_714@reddit
This dude is the single best source of information for this cpu lol. Thanks for the insights that for some reason no one else provides. It’s like reviewers use this cpu for a few games and synthetic shit and that’s it. No real world performance/experience whatsoever. Getting my 9950x3d soon, can’t wait to apply the suggested settings. To reiterate though, windows power plan: Balanced is always the best right? And for games, simply turn windows game mode off (also no need for xbox game bar with lasso, right), assign vcache ccd to game and that’s it. Vcache ccd will be used exclusively for the game, the other ccd is used for non game tasks with this.
I’m wondering what’s the point of game mode then btw. Seems like a weird design decision.
Infamous-Metal-103@reddit
Do you not have to set the other background apps to use non cache cc'd individually?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Yes keep Balanced. And yes with off Game Mode.
Game bar doesn't really matter, I've left it intact for capturing recording the last 30 seconds of my game (Nvidia App is a piece of garbage).
It's a lazy decision. The real fix is in Microsoft's hands to fix their scheduler. Which they won't.
GoldenX86@reddit
AyyMD engineering at its finest.
Cheeze_It@reddit
CPU scheduler is the issue. Not AMD.
ErektalTrauma@reddit
Nothing stopping AMD from making a hardware scheduler like Intel.
Cheeze_It@reddit
That is absolutely true. However that adds yet another layer if indirection. Doing that has much more chance to add even more entropy and uncertainty which can cause even more performance problems.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
You're not wrong. It's Microsoft's fault.
Brief_Swordfish6122@reddit
Is it still advisable to use balance mode ? because when I start process Lasso it automatically sets my power to bitsum high performance
BrainContusionsAgain@reddit
Does Game mode interfere with process lasso? I've always left it on but set any game where I noticed any sort of hitching to use the cache cores with lasso and it almost always smooths things out. I find that game mode/game bar gets it right often enough and I just use process lasso for a few games that aren't quite optimized correctly
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Game Mode causes core parking, which forces all the non-game processes to share cache with the game.
You will get better performance with Game Mode disabled.
Medium_Web6083@reddit
Can this method work on Intel cpu like 285k and 265k?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
I don't know much about them.
Xiuhtec@reddit
I just built a system with a 9950X3D and not only is it my first dual-CCD chip it's my first time going with AMD over Intel since like the Thunderbird, so reading up on all this is a little confusing with differing advice everywhere, particularly since some of the advice is probably outdated but it's hard to tell what is and isn't still true.
Is there a particular CPPC BIOS setting I should be using, or is default fine? Are default settings for Process Lasso on a fresh installation good or should I configure something? Do I leave Game Mode on or disable it (as you had to for the 7950X3D in another post)? Do I assign cache or freq CCD affinity to games (seems like cache for most, but some games prefer freq and requires per-game testing?), and does this need to be done manually in Process Lasso or is Game Mode going to do this on its own anyway for popular games? Do I manually also assign the opposite CCD to things that are generally background tasks (Firefox, Discord, etc) or let Windows handle non-games automatically?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
You don't need to change the CPPC. It defaults to frequency when not in a game and in Game Mode.
That's up to you. I also like to set annoying Windows processes like the search indexer and Windows Update to the lowest CPU and I/O priority.
It needs to be disabled for Process Lasso. Game Mode is what triggers core parking and the CPPC to change.
The vast majority of games will benefit from cache. Universe Sandbox is different because it's a simulation.
Every single game must be manually set in Process Lasso.
What? I'm comparing Process Lasso to Game Mode. All Game Mode does is park CCD and set the preferred cores to CCD0. It's a janky solution which is why it doesn't perform as well .
No, you don't need to. As long as Game Mode is off, Windows will assign these to the frequency cores automatically.
Temptazn@reddit
Sorry, and thank you for your testing. I don't mean to be too thick, but I don't quite get this;
So Windows assigns background tasks to CCD1 automatically with Game Mode off yeah?
What does it do with Games when Game Mode is off, does it also send to CCD1?
With Game Mode off (and no process lasso), everything goes to CCD1...Does Windows ever invoke the CCD0 when game mode is off, or does the AMD driver recognise a game and send it to CCD0?
I notice (Game Mode on, no PL) that the game occupies CCD0 with a single core on CCD1 doing whatever it does. The rest of the cores on CCD1 appear parked.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
For the most part. It doesn't distinguish games. Frequency is the preferred CPPC by default. When there's Game Mode, the driver changes the preferred CPPC to cache and then parks the frequency cores.
Some threads will go there. Frequency cores are preferred, not set in stone.
No, if this were the case then why would we need Process Lasso?
This will vary depending on the load. This observation is actually part of the reason that the performance is worse (the other being that all processes are forced to share the cache).
dervu@reddit
Isn't there a way to have every .exe from given folder/subfolders to use CCD0? That would be a lot simpler to have all games under one folder to do that. So for instance all steam games it would be one folder.
fromtheether@reddit
Just saw you comment right after I replied above, but yeah you can. PL supports wildcards for CPU affinity/set rules.
fromtheether@reddit
Just wanted to chime in and say that, depending on your folder structure, you can use wildcards to set PL rules for affinity/sets. You don't have to set every single one, but I'm sure you'll have some exceptions.
For example, I have a base rule to set all games under C:\Games\Steam to use the set (0-7). Then above that one, I have a couple of exemptions, like for ER to use affinity instead, and FF16 to use all cores.
Xiuhtec@reddit
Appreciate the answers. There is a lot of outdated or straight up misinformation out there and it's tough to sort through.
dfv157@reddit
I suppose upgrading from lasso 7950x3d would just be a drop in upgrade then lol
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Yes. Exact same configuration. AMD claimed to have improved things, everyone talked about it, and it's just NOT. Lol.
icy1007@reddit
I’m not seeing much of any improvement using game mode/drivers vs process lasso on my 9950X3D. It’s basically the exact same.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Did you actually run benchmarks? What did you do for configuration? And keep in mind that GPU bound games will see less difference which is why I lowered quality to low.
Savage4Pro@reddit
Did you have numbers for the lasso'd 7950x3d? The post doesnt.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
If you click the link to my original post and scroll to the bottom. That test was not very scientific.
Savage4Pro@reddit
I noticed the Cinebench one, I was looking for comparable benchmarks between lasso'd 7950x3d and lasso'd 9950x3d.
x3nics@reddit
12 core CCDs can't come quick enough.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Not sure that would help. We would need a 16-core CCD.
VampyrByte@reddit
You really should try to remove these variables as much as possible when testing performance like this. Any one of these extra pieces of software will be introducing a variance from one run to the next.
Great work though, really interesting that even after 2 years Microsoft and AMD probably haven't been able to get the best out of these chips on Windows.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
This variance becomes consistent when you do multiple runs across multiple games. I did this explicitly to test a realistic scenario.
If you completely remove all background processes, I'd wager that there would be less of a difference if any difference at all. The reason we need to do this lassoing is that the default core parking method forces all processes to share cache with the game, stealing the cache from the game.
VampyrByte@reddit
It's possible to add the realism to the results from the scientific approach. It's not as possible to divine the science from the "realistic" approach.
You don't need to wager if removing those background processes would change the result, you have the tools to test it.
We don't know how these other processes interact and work with either the default scheduling or process lasso. Maybe they have a bug, or are bad neighbours when one of these solutions is enabled. Perhaps you did a batch of tests at lunch time when discord was getting spammed, and another at 3AM when its dead for example.
Also, another suggestion would be to present frametime rather than framerate and I'd be really interested to see results at some interesting percentiles rather than just 50% and minimums but I appreciate that's a ton more work.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
I did the tests back to back. These results are consistent with the testing I did with the 7950X3D. This level of scrutiny is unnecessary. If you want to test it, feel free. I only did the testing at all as a PSA.
Temptazn@reddit
Isn't it odd that nothing changed on the AMD end in the intervening two years?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Yes and no. It might be that there isn't much else they can do other than beg Microsoft to implement it correctly.
Temptazn@reddit
But you tested at lowest possible graphics settings...how is that "realistic scenario".
Who is pairing a flagship 9950x3d with a GPU that is only capable of lowest graphics settings?
I find this all a bit theoretical anyways. Even my 7950X3D with 5080FE, FPS exceeds my 4k/240Hz and 1080p/480Hz monitor framrate at ultimate settings.
Reactor-Licker@reddit
So, let me get this straight, please correct me if I’m wrong:
By default, when Windows detects a game the non cache CCD is effectively totally disabled, even when background tasks are running, assuming everything works “properly” (which it sounds like it doesn’t really). So if I’m recording using OBS or have a YouTube video playing in the background, they are all locked to the cache CCD when a game is running, even though there is perfectly good idle CCD for those tasks.
Turning off Game Mode disables all core parking on the 9950X3D.
Windows still can’t identify cache favorable games vs frequency favorable games.
Some games haven’t been properly added to the AMD driver list for proper scheduling behavior, especially older or obscure ones
Does Intel’s implementation suffer any of these same issues? If not, why? This appears to be one area Intel has a serious advantage over AMD for once.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Parked, not disabled. It can unpark under heavy load.
Not really "locked", but heavily preferred to use the cache, yes. They will share resources with the game. It's stupid.
Windows can't identify shit other than "this is a game". AMD is doing all the work.
Yes.
I have no idea.
Regular_Tomorrow6192@reddit
Cool tests, very interesting results. Now if only we could get AMD/Microsoft to make this happen automatically.
VforVictorian@reddit
Thank you for sharing. I was looking to test some things myself since this is my first time using using one of these heterogenous CPUs, but haven't had much opportunity to use it yet because of work. I will try your suggestions when I get a chance.
PeasantPotatoBoi@reddit
Thank you very much for sharing and taking the time to answer questions in the comments.
battler624@reddit
the tests with Lasso I assume is without the optimization driver thing?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Yes.
TuskNaPrezydenta2020@reddit
How do you even give full access to all cores? If it's detected as a game the best I can see is entire ccd0+one or two cores from ccd1 if the load is really really high.
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
By disabling Game Mode, the driver doesn't park cores or do anything.
Tee__B@reddit
That sounds way off. Are you using the balanced powerplan?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Yes. Test it yourself.
Noble00_@reddit
I'm assuming you are also on the latest chipset driver and AGESA and are on Windows Balanced profile as well? Have you noticed anything with core utilization when playing games? Also, supposedly you can use Game bar and manually focus on a program/game, have you tried that and compared results?
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
Yes.
Yes.
Power plan, yes.
In Cyberpunk, the second CCD didn't stay completely parked, one core would occasionally come online.
I'm not sure what you're asking.
Tee__B@reddit
I'm skeptical about him being on the right power plan.
Noble00_@reddit
I mean, it's fair to say that the dual CCD X3D chips aren't perfect. It is a physical limitation after all. \~10% average deviation compared to a 9800X3D isn't outlandish. But I don't think on average the gap should be that big. Of course some games here and there may not work as it should.
But, when most reviews pit the 9950X3D and 9800X3D together and don't find glaring issues, it doesn't really seem to add up.
For instance, here is Eurogamers (Digital Foundry) and PCGamesHardaware results (the latter you can isolate the 9950X3D and 9800X3D). Just leaving it as it is with everything updated, it works fine, some deviation, but overall not a stark difference.
Here are some other user experiences:
https://www.overclock.net/threads/official-zen-5-x3d-owners-club-9800x3d-9900x3d-9950x3d.1812505/page-306?post_id=29444042#post-29444042
https://www.overclock.net/threads/official-zen-5-x3d-owners-club-9800x3d-9900x3d-9950x3d.1812505/page-304?post_id=29443885#post-29443885
https://www.overclock.net/threads/official-zen-5-x3d-owners-club-9800x3d-9900x3d-9950x3d.1812505/page-303?post_id=29443741#post-29443741
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
The 9950X3D has higher clock speeds. If the software worked correctly, every game would beat the 9800X3D.
theholylancer@reddit
I think you are looking at the wrong set of games
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-9950x3d/17.html
at 720p, where performance is very much CPU bottlenecked, TPU shows that average 9800X3D is 106% of 9950X3D, similar at 1080 at 104.8% better
specific to the games tested by OP, cyberpunk is 242.3 FPS to 221.4 FPS and very similar at 1080p to OP's numbers at 248.1 FPS vs 217.2 FPS 9950X3D
a lot of the games chosen for testing are modern games where AMD likely have worked on a LOT of optimization, while the OP chosen older games like FC6 and tiny tinas that likely didn't get as much love from AMD
and then cyberpunk shows that even with love they didn't do as much work.
but TPU's tests showed that in places like elden ring and BG3 there can be equal or improvements right
HeWhoShantNotBeNamed@reddit (OP)
I am absolutely on the right power plan, which is Balanced.