Hot take on the Odin Project in 2025
Posted by NoGuidance7272@reddit | learnprogramming | View on Reddit | 68 comments
So, long story short, I have been learning to code through the Odin Project since 2022. The course was an absolute godsend. All the contents provided were very detailed and helpful for you to learn how to write code.
BUT, I do think there’s a belief among many of TOP leaners out there that studying the Odin Project is all it takes to become an entry level full stack developer. Now, I don’t think this is false, you can definitely get a job as a full stack, if you are still in 2020-2022. The situation now is different. Computer Science is becoming some sort of a trend, where literally everyone is trying to jump on the dev train, thinking this is the career to make banks. Of course, I understand the arguments that not everyone learning CS, can be a good developer. Heck, even some CS students can’t even write code. However, with more and more people joining the field, there will be even more people who can’t write code with a cs degree, along with people who CAN write software code AND have a degree. I only managed to land an internship last year, and now a full time engineer few months ago. But that was because I took another bachelor course in uni, fast tracked to 3 trimesters per year.
TLDR, I think TOP(or any other self-taught programming platform) is still a great material to learn web programming (html, css javascript and react). But, solely relying on TOP will not give you a high chance of landing a software development/web development anymore. If going to university is not viable, I would recommend looking into learning some more stuffs after completing TOP, such as DSA, more strongly-typed languages such as C#, Java, etc.
What do you guys think? Would love to have some more opinions regarding this.
goestowar@reddit
TOP by itself was never going to get you a job.
fatboythrown@reddit
Tell that to all the people who have gotten jobs but doing it
Snackatttack@reddit
i think this is a pretty common take.
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Just hoping to clear things up for newcomers learning to program through TOP. I’ve heard many saying that by completing it they can start working
beefycabbageavenger@reddit
Why is OP getting downvoted for this 😭
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
I feel like many are misinterpreting my intention for this post 🥲
SalamanderOk6944@reddit
Probably. TOP is old news. That you're coming in here to tell people stuff they already know will put you up against a fence.
Icy_Inevitable714@reddit
Is there something new to replace TOP?
Only_Compote_7766@reddit
They are in for a rude awakening. Which is fine, they didnt do their research...
wantondavis@reddit
Wild to be down voted for this lol
Bahaadur73@reddit
I'm sorry but no one gives a crap if you studied something or not. Or what kind of degree you have.
Either you can deliver or not. Pimp up your portfolio and projects.
aamoguss@reddit
It feels like you need to know how to build a software company in order to get an entry level job at one now.
bufflow08@reddit
Just some advice from someone who's been in the industry for about a decade, I realize that job postings are not something anyone takes seriously. What I mean is, they're just templates that people put up, just apply anyway, be likeable, and you'll have a much better chance than the most qualified of candidates.
SalamanderOk6944@reddit
So very true.
They aren't going to put no requirements on a job posting. And they are going to try and grab the best they can.
So it is what it is, resumes overshoot.
And this poster is right, ability to work through problems together will go farther than raw skill. Unless you're dependent on that raw skill.
Walgreens_Security@reddit
This was one of the job postings in my local area on Indeed for a Junior Software Engineer.
So yeah you’re not far off.
pVom@reddit
You certainly need to keep learning afterwards but I wouldn't suggest java and c# necessarily. If that's what you're interested in then by all means, however they tend to be used more by enterprises, at least here in Australia, and enterprises tend to have more applicants and more hard limits on which candidates to even look at, which tends to mean having a degree.
But all the Dev jobs I've had I got through networking, I don't think I've even had a single call back from an application on a job listing site. An often overlooked part of formal education is the networking, I got my foot in the door from a referral from a former classmate.
After you finish TOP you need to build stuff and you need to network. To succeed as a self taught you need to want it so bad you make it happen by getting in front of people and showcasing a passion so strong it can't be ignored. That's pretty much always been the case. If you can't do that then it's worth getting a formal education and completing TOP will likely put you at the top of the class and your network's list of people worth referring.
Secure_Competition17@reddit
Hey guys, I'm new to the programming, where should I begin, Any recommendations?
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
The Odin Project. Can’t go wrong with it. Get the basics down before going on to more advanced stuffs
Secure_Competition17@reddit
I forgot to mention something, I'm not actually going to a University, I'm a part-time worker. I don't know where to start. Also I have a app called "alison" some say they have courses from languages to careers and they are saying every course is free, the downside's are 1) i have to pay for graduation certificate (but the price is reasonable) 2) ads (not that big of a problem)
Should I go forward with alison or do you have any suggestions?
SkyHour4308@reddit
I just started TOP and kinda struggling with JavaScript so I complementing with an Udemy one with lots of practical projects. What else would you recomment to Apply for a web developer jr in a couple of months? Like you said: i wont stick only on the TOP currículum but would like Also know the posibilites to get in as soon as posible to gain experience at least
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Of course. It depends on what kind of programming you want to do tbh. Do you want to go deeper, doing software related programming? Or do you want to be a web developer? If being a web developer, then TOP gives you a solid base. On top of that, I recommend learning some other languages on top of JS, maybe C, Java, or PHP for backend(even though php is a bit old and some recruiters are shying away from it from my pov). Some comments on this post also gave really good advices so have a look into them as well.
Learning Js and node.js(the further into Odin Project) is quite solid to be a full stack already, but by learning more, you open yourself to more opportunities.
Good luck learning!!
Ecliptic_37@reddit
Damn the comments on this are so mean lol. "This isn't a hot take", "this is obvious", etc.
I'm someone who didn't get a CS degree. I have looked into TOP and ppl were saying this is pretty much all you need, so I think this is a good post for us normies, which is who the post is for.
Y'all need to stop falling so much into the stereotype of a reddit comment and acting all "know-it-all". Either be helpful like OP is trying to be or stfu XD
ItsKoku@reddit
Its obvious and not a hot take if you are already working in the industry or very close to it, and you had more formal CS education/training. But for the would-be bootcamp type of crowd it isn't obvious.
With the state of the market and AI becoming more capable, TOP and similar won't give you a great shot - not that TOP sucks, but you're going through all this effort for very slim chances. There's increased preference on more traditional CS knowledge (DSA, OOP and Systems Design, architecting, theoretical math, etc) and less market need for "code monkeys" to do grunt work, which a lot of bootcampers and TOP-type self-learners start out as. AI can handle a lot of simpler code monkey tasks, it just needs a dev with some experience to guide and review for correctness. So experienced dev productivity is higher than before and with needing to hire fewer devs, they have more picks from those with formal training.
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
That’s why I posted in this sub. After all it’s /learnprogramming not /proficientNASAdeveloper
Jokes aside, that’s some great analysis. Hopefully new self-learners will acknowledge this.
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Omg thanks! I posted this with an intention of telling ppl who are starting their coding journey that don’t just solely rely on the skills they learned from TOP to look for a job. After the first few comments I really thought I made a mistake posting this cuz everyone knew lol
Cthulhus-Tailor@reddit
Computer nerds aren’t known for their social skills.
chobot9999@reddit
TOP is great.. imo more than anything, it teaches you to problem-solve and get used to reading documentation to figure stuff out yourself. It's a great program to get your hands dirty rather than being stuck in tutorial hell. It's a pretty solid program FOR setting up for success. But man, you are delusional if you think it ends there, and recruiters will line up to hire you.
In my experience, it was a true trial by fire from my first internship to my current workplace. You're going to learn real quick that your code is probably dog water. Be ready to learn and use the problem-solving skills built up from the program to find that success!
Pro tip: Be an effective communicator.. make sure you're on the same page as your team and everyone involved... making wrong assumptions just based on a jira board deacription or a meeting made for some bumpy freaking times... now I'd rather ask the "stupid" questions than be caught down the sprint with my pants down
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Agree 100%. TOp is a great platform to learn the basics, along with some practical projects. For new learners, I would recommend TOP in a heartbeat. As long as they are aware of the fact that completing TOP alone won’t make you an outstanding candidate.
ScarceXrul@reddit
As a TOP learner myself from years past. TOP echo chamber of this is all you need is really just to keep people on track and out of tutorial hell. Once you have your bearings I think it’s normal to consume multiple sources of information. Just don’t get lost in the sauce.
ahmednabik@reddit
Great answer. TOP itself is not enough but it certainly keeps you on track when you are a beginner. Once you know your way through the basic stuff you can then dive deep during projects and learn what you don't know.
I completed TOP in 2023-24 and took me around 9 months. Have launched 2 products after that and they are making some money. I am learning Python & ML stuff these days and I wish if there was TOP type path for Python as well.
wial@reddit
Learning cloud stuff and containerization especially kubernetes can make a big difference too. Ansible, also. Not to mention ML/AI. There's also a big market for AEM (adobe experience manager) among big companies and organizations e.g. NASA, but it's hard to get trained on that except on the job because the software is incredibly expensive -- but this makes the skill valuable on the market. Learning some Java OSGi e.g. via Liferay would be a leg up in that regard, and there are a lot of teams using Liferay as well. Mind you, that kind of platform programming is a very different animal from the usual web application programming.
DidiHD@reddit
How long did it take you to complete TOP? I am a fullstack dev but I'm actually a backend who was slowly pushed into doing frontend. Figuring if I should pick up top to strengthen the fundamentals. I do get a few days per year to do learning
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
I think 1.5 years in total. I was juggling between TOP, uni and a full time job so it was rough haha. Yeah definitely. TOP gives you a very solid base to understand front end programming, basically just html css and javascript for the first half of the course. They teaches React as well
DidiHD@reddit
i see, thanks! a few days per year won't suffice for it then haha. will have to be freetime hustle
shoolocomous@reddit
I think cs 'becoming a trend' was around 10 years ago. If anything, the current trend is away from it because number of job openings has hugely diminished and everyone is convinced that ai will take the rest.
Also: dumb question perhaps, but isn't 3 trimesters per year the standard number of trimesters?
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
I do hope that’s the case tho. Apparently some parents have been sending their kids to programming classes since 10-12 y/o just cause they think cs makes crazy money
Usually for bachelor(aussie here) we do semester, which is like 2 semester(4 units each) per year. But I wanted to learn quick so I just skipped summer vaca and did like 3 semester per year
Quick_Ad_9027@reddit
Which University did you go to?
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Western Sydney uni
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Western Sydney uni
Haeckelcs@reddit
This is obvious. TOP got you jobs in 2020 when everyone was getting jobs. Now you need to have really good projects and know DSA. A simple CRUD project with a tidy frontend doesn't cut it anymore.
Potatoroid@reddit
I thought you'd need to network your way. Wasn't it always who we knew, not what we knew? What even counts as "knows DSA"? Able to solve a 6KYU codewars? Arrays? Hash tables?
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
You always need to network your ways in every field tbh. Some connections can even refer you even before a company list a job. For DSA, yeah I would recommend doing some leetcode. If you haven’t learned much about DSA, maybe take cs50 by havard? I haven’t done that course yet but ppl said they teaches computer science fundamentals, which TOP didn’t cover much.
Haeckelcs@reddit
It definitely is, not only in IT, but in all spheres of life.
Companies for entry roles are asking Leetcode easy/medium these days. I think most of the time it's one easy, one medium question, but it probably differs based on the company. Some have you do a take home task and then go through it with you, but those are rare.
Knows DSA depends on the questions you get because as a beginner you will not be able to go deep into topics. As they are asking Leetcode questions it will be the DSA you encounter in those problems. Searches, sorts, trees etc.
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Not that obvious tho from what I’ve seen on the discord server. Some still think they could do a huge career change just by completing the course
Haeckelcs@reddit
They can if they have connections in some company.
For an average person it's only the beginning. The market has gone back to pre COVID numbers. It's not a get rich quick scheme everyone still tries to sell. You need knowledge. Interviews are harder than the actual jobs.
Preflux89@reddit
what's DSA ?
Haeckelcs@reddit
Data Structures and Algorithms.
187S@reddit
Not really sure what the point of your post: to discourage new learners and gate keep programming field? To bash on TOP? To say that even if you get through TOP you probably won't get far? You do have to know, that stuff like landing job or progressing tech career is never guaranteed to anyone. Everyone also knows that industry has been in bad state for past few years.
I am sure there are people failing and not landing job after TOP (probably majority of them) , but I also constantly see people posting their success stories regularly in TOP discord about landing jobs. Funny thing is that, by my own observation, more than half of these success stories are students that land a job in CS field during their course and end up dropping it, because they already achieved what they needed. Most of them also didn't have any CS degree prior to that. Does this mean course guarantees anything to you ? Never. Life is extremely unfair to many people and a lot of it comes to down to luck, connections, random events.
So what you need to do is to work towards your other half percentage, and maybe more, to actually make a significant change. You just grind, you research and you learn and you keep trying.
But mind you, spreading bad faith about something based on your own personal experience is not a good thing. It's discouraging for new learners, create soulless and hopeless narrative.
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
I did add a TLDR at the end. I’m trying to do anything but discourage new learners. What I’m saying is TOP is great, but in this competitive job market, don’t just study TOP and nothing else. If they want to have an edge, they should study more stuffs, do more projects outside of the curriculum.
And I agree, the market is hard. It’s getting tougher and tougher every day. So would you rather sugarcoat it and say, “yeah people are still getting jobs without a degree, don’t worry”, or give them the reality so they can look into expanding their knowledge?
I hope I cleared myself up.
wantondavis@reddit
If you can't understand the point of this post you are either lying or have 3 brain cells that are barely functioning.
Potatoroid@reddit
I really have to empathize this. The hopelessness is actually a killer.
Ilovegrapesys@reddit
I can't give you an award but take my up vote
-VeilSide-@reddit
Puoi linkare la pagina di odin? Non la conoscevo. Conosco BASHSCRIPT , C# , JAVA , PYTHON da autodidatta!
yakker06@reddit
How to learn data structures and algorithms
Msygin@reddit
I was really expecting a hot take. Not the 9000th regurgitation of "cs bad" lol.
OomKarel@reddit
Why do people think CS == Software development. Dev is just one section of it. CS is much broader than just slinging code.
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Sorry it’s my first reddit post, might have used the wrong headline lol
Status_Pollution3776@reddit
Errr uni graduates now vibe codes so
ColoRadBro69@reddit
This is common knowledge.
Sufficient-Science71@reddit
That is lukewarm. I'll give you better.
Odin project, or whatever bootcamp it pretend to be ain't shit compared to building your own shitty project yourself. Those kind of project will be the main culprit of why you will never stand on your own legs. Enjoy your endless tutorial hell bucko, you will be there for a while.
stiky21@reddit
Ask them to write a Fizz Buzz. It's shocking how many can't do such a simple day1 of College task..
OG_MilfHunter@reddit
This reminds me of the old late night commercials where you can learn to be a programmer at home, in your free time.
https://youtu.be/RaGjtdk5B50?si=IUUwRggHaz9HVqto
Realistically, CS is maturing and raising the bar for entry, like most serious professions. It's unfortunate for the graduates that were caught in the crossfire and are struggling to find a job since a lot of the boot campers oversaturated the field, but ultimately it'll recover and be better off for it. Stronger competition leads to stronger companies, which benefits employees and consumers.
I'm currently a college student that's always been anti-college, but America's technical capabilities are slacking and it needs to get its edge back somehow.
Surf_Arrakis82@reddit
I’m just starting TOP mainly just because I ‘just want to know how to code’ but to an employable level. I’m not desperate for a job as I’m already an optician, but have found I really enjoy learning to code & would be keen on a career change in this direction. So far I’m loving how detailed TOP is and am excited to really get stuck in. If it’s enough to land me a job in say a couple of years, then brilliant! If not… never mind. It’s free! 😂
NameNotGroot@reddit
It was a trend before and during the pandemic. The trend died after pandemic though, so of course it's much tougher now to land an entry level tech job. All the new hires in my company is at least twice as smart as I was 4 years a go.
whoShotMyCow@reddit
tepid take at best
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Sorry I shouldn’t have used the word “hot”
ffrkAnonymous@reddit
duh
NoGuidance7272@reddit (OP)
Yeah lol I’m not the interactive type on here. Until today