Religious Zionism says will quit coalition if no return to war after deal’s 1st phase
Posted by Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 240 comments
An_Aroused_Koala_AU@reddit
Damn. If this news source can be trusted then there are some pretty bloodthirsty barbarians in Israeli politics. Also the imagery of people calling for further war while wearing religious garb I find honestly frightening.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
Many news organizations are reporting this...
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-01-16/ty-article/.premium/far-right-minister-ben-gvir-to-quit-netanyahu-govt-if-hostage-deal-approved/00000194-7069-d540-a7f4-787f42df0000
TIL there is an Israeli political party literally called "Religious Zionism".
Bman1465@reddit
Talk about creatively dead, like, how hard could it be to think of a proper name?
Private_HughMan@reddit
Fascists don't have to be subtle once they've secured power.
Bman1465@reddit
The Nazis tried and got a pretty inconspicuous name braindead people today still use to justify they were "socialists"
That is how you build a brand; RZ didn't even try
mwa12345@reddit
Maybe because hitler took over a party that already existed ..and just remade it in his own name
RZ has no Rizz..and probably wanted to be clear about their intent.
Bman1465@reddit
The Rizz Party!
mwa12345@reddit
Haha. True Maybe RiZZ
Private_HughMan@reddit
They did that before they got into power. The Nazis had to build the fascism up. The far right already had control in Israel. RZ is coming in with the work mostly done.
Bman1465@reddit
I'm still disappointed tho
Like this is barely a D- at best in terms of naming, Earth has shitty worldbuilding
mwa12345@reddit
Hi. Suspect they know their audience
Private_HughMan@reddit
That's fair. Should we blame the DM or is this a player issue?
Airowird@reddit
It was their "I'm gonna solve groceries" brand.
I mean, atleast they actually did the stuff they promised to get into power. (Ethnic) German lives did see an improvement up to late 30s. Then the focus shifted to the "nationalists" part of the name.
Just like RZ probably started out as very religious, but that's not what they're being called out for here.
themightycatp00@reddit
Since when do political parties need to have a creative name?
If anything you'd need to have a simple name to attract the lazy voters who can't be bothered to look at a charter
azure_beauty@reddit
So religious Zionism surprises you but "Jewish power" does not?
Private_HughMan@reddit
So I'm not Israeli and don't know the names of most political parties, but would I be right in guessing that "Jewish Power" in Israel has the same implications as "White Power" does in North America?
azure_beauty@reddit
I wouldn't say the dynamic is exactly the same, white power has a certain perception of white people being scientifically superior, Otzma Yehudit hates Arabs for a different reason.
"Otzma" (עוצמה) can also be translated as strength, but the political beliefs of the party are closely aligned with Kahanism, which was banned in Israel for being too anti-Arab.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Okay. So there are similarities but there are nuances between them in the motivations behind their stances? Is that it? Or am I still misunderstanding?
azure_beauty@reddit
Well i am not sure what you mean. White power can mean a lot of different things, but primarily seems to be based on the idea that white people should rule over the black minority for their own good.
Otzma Yehudit believes Israel is a state for the Jews, and Arabs are enemies of the state who need to be expelled. I don't think I've ever seen Americans arguing for the expulsion of African Americans, and Ben-Gvir certainly isn't arguing that Israel should rule over Jordan for the Jordanians' own good.
ScientificSkepticism@reddit
That is indeed one of the ideas that the KKK had. A century ago, Mississippi’s Senate voted to send all the state’s Black people to Africa.
Racists are really not the most original thinkers.
mwa12345@reddit
True. The "initial " solution..as opposed to the "final"
ScientificSkepticism@reddit
They're not that different. The Armenian Genocide was a forced relocation - 30-50% of the people relocated died along the way. The difference between "mass deportation" and "gas chambers" is as much optics as anything else. You can always say the deaths were "unfortunate" but really it was just part of the process. Even blame the victims, if they weren't so uncooperative with their forced relocation well, probably wouldn't have died.
Watching these people blatantly supporting genocide in the comment section is... something.
mwa12345@reddit
True. While gas chambers get a lot more visibility and press...a good fraction of the 11 million Nazi victims were killed in marches etc...and starvation.
But there is a difference of intent.
Private_HughMan@reddit
"For their own good" is not always used in the WP rhetoric. Sometimes it's just because they believe that it's the natural state of white people to rule over black people. It's of course bullshit, but that was a common talking point. Less so now. Same with expulsion. While it's not a common talking point now, it absolutely was a major talking point among racists that everyone else should leave. You've maybe heard the saying "go back to Africa" or "go back to where you came from." Part of the reason that's less common now is (I think) because there are a lot more ethnic minorities now, so a full "purge" isn't realistic, and the racists who believe in that stuff tend to soften their messaging to make it appeal to the more moderate racists in society.
It sounds like the "Jewish Power" party is more like that old fashioned kind of racism where they feel like they're just entitled to everything they want because of what they are, and that everyone else should leave or live under them.
I say "old fashioned" not because those people no longer exist here. I'm sure they do. It's just no longer a winning tactic for them.
azure_beauty@reddit
Well that's the thing, they don't want to rule over Arabs, they believe the entire territory of the mandate of Palestine (and sometimes southern Lebanon) are rightfully Jewish land, and Arabs should be expelled to make space for Jews.
So while there are undoubtedly "hints" of Jewish supremacy in there, they don't apply this dynamic to the entire world as a western racist might.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Fuck. That's worse than I thought. I figured they'd at least tolerate the existence of non-Jewish Arabs in Israel as a second-class minority.
Again, this would vary. Some don't want it to apply to the whole world but instead want white people to rule over certain lands and everyone else stay in their own lands. Hence the "go back to Africa" cliche. Kinda like how Hitler believed Germans were the Master Race but also declared the Japanese to be "honourary Aryans." Like each region had their own master race and Europe's was the Germans.
Of course, the Nazis said that their master race was the most master race because they could never accept calling themselves anything other than the best. Because they were children with bombs.
Though I guess the Jewish version of that isn't quite the same because I doubt they think that every race should rule over some arbitrary chunk of the world. THeirs seems very focused on Jews and Israel, with everyone else being irrelevant.
mwa12345@reddit
I am not sure if even the "white power" folks want to run Africa, Latin America. That was just Britain, France etc during the heyday of imperialism.
These day, the WP folks seem like a reactionary bunch looking to retain their prerogative in western countries?
azure_beauty@reddit
I'd say you pretty much got it. If it's any consolation, these parties are far from having mainstream support, and a lot of their support comes from people with grievances in regard to appeasement policies towards Palestinians and what they view to be a government that is too soft on Palestinian terrorism, not so much out of hate towards Arabs itself.
Also they also for the most part do not advocate for the murder of Arabs, they simply view them as a security threat and don't really care about their rights.
....yeah, Israel's fucked.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Thanks for taking the time to clarify these things. And I'm sorry for everything going on in your country. While Israel's government is something I generally detest, I know there are a lot of good people living in the country who don't want any of those things. I hope the trend gets disrupted because none of this seems sustainable.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
Good discussion. Tiny jump in. While Jews are both an ethnicity and a religion, these religious extremist parties are like any religious extremists. These are Dati (Orthodox) Jews who you see in the settlements and who make up some of these right-wing religious driven ideologies. Like evangelicals wanting the nuclear family, prayer in schools, etc. It's not about race but religion, and it's not necessarily about expelling Israeli Arabs, just Palestinians, because in their mind, the Palestinians have enough lands, and Israel should be restored to its ancient biblical borders. Meanwhile, the total population of Israel is 12% Dati, and these parties are a fringe group of that demographic. So they really don't have any power unless a big party like Likud forms a coalition with them.
azure_beauty@reddit
While it is true that these parties mostly represent the religious minority, I don't know if they are limited to that demographic. These stunts regarding the ceasefire have won them support from people who otherwise would not vote for them.
These religious demographics also happen to have the most kids.
That said, at least prior to this war, most people I know wouldn't actually vote based on the parties' views towards Palestinians, because the price of milk will always be a more pressing issue.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
I agree with that. I don't believe that all religious people vote for these parties or share their ideologies, nor are these parties exclusively appealing to religious types.
I just wanted to shut down this "majority of Israel" false narrative. As you know, if two people are having a debate, there are at least three opinions.
azure_beauty@reddit
Of course, appreciate the nuance.
ADP_God@reddit
There is a sense that the Arabs will always hate the Jews, based in the antisemitic sentiment in Islam and history, and therefore cannot be trusted to remain as loyal citizens of the country. It in itself isn’t a racist policy, but definitely derives from the racist inability to discern between the Israeli Arabs who do live peacefully in the country, and the West Bank Arabs/Gazans who want to kill Jews and take the land.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Why are the Israeli Jews doing all of the land taking from the west bank, then?
ADP_God@reddit
I’m not sure I understand your question?
Private_HughMan@reddit
I get that, but its pretty insulting of you to characterise the victims of ethnic cleansing as wanting to kill all Jews and steal the land when all the land being stolen is theirs and almost every death is theirs.
ADP_God@reddit
Both of those things can be true at the same time.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Palestinians suffer MUCH more from Israeli terrorism than the other way around. It's not even remotely close. It's like pee wee tee-ball vs. the major leagues. And the PLO has been extremely cooperative with Israel. They've made far more effort for peace than has been returned to them.
ADP_God@reddit
I agree that Bibi’s resistance to the PA ruling in Gaza now is a major problem. Bibi is harming both Israelis and Palestinians.
Beyond that, the Palestinians that suffer from Israeli terrorism are dramatically blown out of proportion in the international media, and the reason that Israel doesn’t suffer more casualties is because the IDF is constantly working. There are more Palestinian attacks on Israeli citizens than Israeli attacks on Palestinian citizens by far — The Palestinians are simply very bad at actually killing Jews. Ignoring the iron dome, the IDF thwarts multiple terror attacks every week. I do also agree that the settlers committing terror attacks are scum, and I even think that Palestinians that commit attacks against them are justified. But the Palestinians don’t restrict their attacks to settlers. So it’s fair to say that the problem is two sided. People trying to pretend on side is evil are usually missing the bigger picture.
mwa12345@reddit
Wait. What about Jordan? Ben Gvir wants to take over ?
Fight4theright777@reddit
white power can mean a lot of things??? looool
azure_beauty@reddit
Well yeah, I'm not saying it's not racist, but racism has many different forms.
talsmash@reddit
The Jewish supremacism of Ben-Gvir is equivalent to the white supremacism you describe. He believes that Jewish people should rule over the Arab minority in Israel (and indeed in Gaza and the West Bank)
azure_beauty@reddit
Well no he doesn't think he should rule over the Arabs, he thinks the Arabs need to be expelled.
talsmash@reddit
What nuances are you talking about?
Racism is racism
Private_HughMan@reddit
There are different types of racism. All are bad but they're not all the same.
talsmash@reddit
The racism of Ben-Gvir is extreme and some sort of lesser form. This is a man who had a portrait of Baruch Goldstein in his home.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Oh I know. When I said nuances, I didn't mean that racism was moderate in any way. I meant it as in there are differences between the types.
I guess "variance" would be the better word, then.
ADP_God@reddit
The attempt to equate conflict between Jews and Arabs with racism is an old tactic to discredit Israel.
azure_beauty@reddit
The situation lacks the racial dynamics that are present in Europe and the West, but ethnic tensions absolutely do exist, both among Arabs and many Jews.
ADP_God@reddit
Absolutely, it’s just not ‘black’ and ‘white’.
Ropetrick6@reddit
It's just 3 year old Arab child and IDF sniper.
ADP_God@reddit
Just a 2 year old baby being released from captivity tomorrow, hopefully alive.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Judging by the IDF's track record, that child is probably going to be gunned down in the streets whilst waving a white flag.
iordseyton@reddit
Wow. Wikipedia calls them the successor to the kach party, which is not just banned but considered a terrorist organization by the israeli government!
So my understanding of israeli governance is pretty limited, but since they're only 6 seats, and the majority government has a 16 seat lead, that means this party leaving doesn't have any immediate effect right?
Can we assume the whole opposition + them would want to trigger a reformation, meaning one of the 4 seat parties could then join them and end netynyahu's government?
azure_beauty@reddit
61 seats is necessary for a majority. The coalition currently has 68 seats, consisting of the two far right parties discussed here, Likud, and the Haredi parties which are not far right in of themselves, but represent the political interests of the Haredim (very religious Jews). National Unity and New hope also have a few seats, but they are not big players, from my understanding.
If Ben Gvir's party leaves, the coalition will have 62 seats left. Ben Gvir is expected to resign because of the deal.
Smotrich leaving the coalition would be enough to topple it, but he seems most interested in the second stage of the deal, which will not happen for a while. (Primarily he wants reassurances that Israel will reenter Gaza after the ceasefire ends).Until then he stays.
If he is unsatisfied, the question would now be whether or not he seeks to benefit from toppling the coalition. Realistically, he has to cooperate with Likud to remain part of the government.
The opposition parties are promising Bibi a safety net in case any of his own coalition members vote against the deal, but from my understanding they would not join the coalition.
actsqueeze@reddit
If the coalition topples what happens then? Not necessarily a new election right away right?
azure_beauty@reddit
If a coalition loses the majority, either 61 MKs have to vote to hold an election, or 61 MKs vote to form a new government. Currently the polls show that if an election was held Bibi would still be able to form a coalition with a very slim margin, but that coalition includes Ben Gvir's and Smotrich's parties.
I don't know enough about internal Israeli politics to make any predictions, but collapsing governments seems to be Israelis favorite pastime.
seecat46@reddit
Bibi would only win according to the Channel 14 polls. All other polls give the current government block approximately at 50 seats and the opposition block 65 seats. The current government would have 40 seats without Otzma Yehudit and Religious Zionism.
ADP_God@reddit
The sad issue is it’s unclear if anybody else could for a coalition either.
azure_beauty@reddit
Well channel 14 has consistent polls that help see shifts in public opinion, it is certainly useful on that regard as even if they miss, they will miss in the same direction every time.
Now are they accurate? Well, I don't think anyone can say for sure.
SunriseHolly@reddit
It's because Election Day is a day off
Redditthedog@reddit
not really more “American power” Israel and Jews are invoked similarly you had the Jewish Home party for example a center right party
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Unfortunately once more not helping allegations of an ethnostate with that. lol.
Redditthedog@reddit
Israel is a Jewish state yes. Non Jews have equal rights but the identity of Israel is Jewish
Srinema@reddit
There are more than 65 laws which establish different (fewer) rights for non-Jews.
https://togetheragainstapartheid.org/apartheid-laws-in-israel/
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
Did you read the ones on the list you provided? None have a thing to do with Israeli citizens. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens and therefore not subject to the rights of Israeli citizens. Arabs with permanent residency status have more rights than Palestinians but less rights than citizens. Why on Earth should Israel be a bilingual country if it's a Jewish state?
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
"Listen, it's separate, but equal, okay? Just don't worry about it"
Private_HughMan@reddit
They do not.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Unlike the other ethnostates you apparently have no issue with.
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
I'm sorry, what ethnostates do you think I have no issue with?
LineOfInquiry@reddit
No it’s more like “German power” or “Chinese power” in Germany or China. “American” is not a racial group the way Jews or Germans or Chinese people are: anyone can be American.
One_Archer7471@reddit
Exactly, I'm not sure if the guy thinks there's a direct analogy between American national identity, which isn't tied to any specific ethnic group, and a specific and explicit ethnic identity.
Redditthedog@reddit
China is a nation so is Germany
PapaverOneirium@reddit
The party is led by Smotrich, who once claimed to be a “fascist homophobe”
So, yes.
talsmash@reddit
The party is racist, anti-Arab, Jewish supremacist. So I would say yes, it appears to be the same "vibe" or "implication".
SirStupidity@reddit
They just don't have much of an idea about Israel/the Israel - Palestine conflict, so they don't even know about the Jewish Power party
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
I cannot say I know much about Israeli politics. But that name does not seem to have great implications either.
azure_beauty@reddit
I am sure you have heard of Itamar Ben-Gvir
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
Honestly, only while seeing articles today about him seamingly leading the charge against this ceasefire deal.
azure_beauty@reddit
Well he's the leader of this party. Kahanist, racist, constantly incites violence, and also happens to be minister of national security, meaning he is in charge of the police activities, including in the West Bank.
Also has this weird tendency to run red lights, resulting in multiple separate crashes. As you can see, objectively the most qualified person to be minister of national security.
roy1979@reddit
He is testing how to prevent accidents putting his own life at risk. /s
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
There’s also one named Jewish Power. Smotrich is only the second most loony member of Israel’s cabinet
happycow24@reddit
How bad do you have to be to get rejected for service by the IDF because of "terrorism convictions" and "extremist views?"
Basically the IDF thought Ben-Gvir was a brand risk. THE IDF.
blackbartimus@reddit
When the army most famous for sniping women and children and bulldozing the elderly to death thinks you too extreme to serve it just means you’re destined to become their political leader.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Oh he supports Meir Kahane.
From Wikipedia:
In 1975, Kahane was arrested for leading the attack on the Soviet United Nations mission and injuring two officers, but he was released after being given summonses for disorderly conduct. Later the same year, Kahane was accused of conspiring to kidnap a Soviet diplomat, bomb the Iraqi embassy in Washington, and ship arms abroad from Israel. He was convicted of violating his probation for the 1971 bombing conviction and was sentenced to one year in prison.
happycow24@reddit
Lol have you read up on Ben-Gvir's views on Rabin?
Champagne_of_piss@reddit
Always have been.
Letshavemorefun@reddit
There are bloodthirsty barbarians in every country. If this is true - it’s really good news imo. A majority of Israelis are not blood thirsty like this and if these crazy people are removed from power/the coalition - that’s not only good news for Israeli democracy in general (since the people in power will better reflect the population) but it’s also really good news for gazan civilians and the people harmed by the current war.
ycnz@reddit
Polling data doesn't really agree with you, I'm afraid.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-deep-divisions-on-gaza-war-goals-as-post-october-7-solidarity-dissipates/
Even bigger divisions were observed when asked about the military’s ethical conduct during the war — 83% of Jews rated it high, while 67.5% of Arabs rated it low. In total, 71% believe the IDF has been ethical, while 17% say it hasn’t. In the same vein, most Jews oppose probing soldiers for suspected abuse of detained Palestinian terror suspects (61.5%) and back reduced punishments for those found guilty (60%), while 75% of Arabs back probes and 77% of them support punishing convicts to the full extent of the law.
The government reflects the population just fine. Yeah, they don't like the government, but they want someone else to run their genocide.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
Why just post the ones about the IDF? The rest is much more interesting and shows how the majority, who are not religious, land politically.
ycnz@reddit
Because it shows whether they personally enjoyed the genocide. And the answer is, yes.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
No. What a wildly false and obscene correlation.
They support their military. Just as virtually any country would.
ycnz@reddit
Not when they commit fucking war crimes, you fucking don't.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
For those who are proven, I agree. Simply based on feelings and gossip, I wouldn't write off the entire military. I haven't written off the Canadian military after our scandals. I don't hate the police because there are bad police. I want the bad apples to be found and removed. I'm not going to generalize, stereotype, or scapegoat.
ycnz@reddit
And that's fine, normally. However, we don't say "I wouldn't write off the entire Wehrmacht because there are a few bad apples".
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
Well, that's where you and I differ, I suppose. I would never mention the Wehrmacht in any discussion about the IDF, seeing as Jews (and Druze) are the only ones with conscription. Thus, making such statements is Holocaust inversion.
ycnz@reddit
Err, what? The Wehrmacht didn't use conscription?
Ropetrick6@reddit
I don't know about you guys in Canada, but I don't personally support the shit my countries military does.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
Do you denounce your entire military? Spit on veterans? Or do you focus your ire at the bad actors like in Tailhook or Mi Lai? Do you get mad at the government like "weapons of mass destruction" or cover-ups like Abu Ghraib? You can support the military and think they're doing a good job while simultaneously having issues with how the government is handling things. This was how it was in the US after 9/11. The critism of Bush came later, and it was never directed at the soldiers who went. Why should this be any different?
Ropetrick6@reddit
Last time I checked, spitting on veterans is not equivalent to not supporting war crimes, but I guess it might be different for you folks in Canada.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
Again, pursuing justice against those who commit "war crimes" is the moral objective. Interestingly, that never happens after My Lai. People were more interested in attacking Jane Fonda than the perpetrators of My Lai and those who covered it up. Also, no one said the US military are trash as an entity. Unless you're suggesting that because of My Lai, every soldier who fought in Vietnam is a "war criminal" and the US military should be abolished for that, and Abu Ghrab and the friendly fire incident that killed Pat Tillman, and going into Iraq and Afghanistan...
If a person commits a criminal act, they should be brought to justice. I don't believe you should blame the entire apparatus for the crimes committed by the few. I also don't believe that anyone is guilty of war crimes without trial and conviction.
I presume you're also interested in abolishing all police and are perfectly fine with murdering CEOs of companies who gouge customers. Bring on the anarchy.
Letshavemorefun@reddit
The question here is about a ceasefire, not an end to the war. When asked about a ceasefire, Israelis poll heavily in favor of it:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-majority-of-israelis-support-deal-ending-gaza-war-for-release-of-all-hostages/amp/
Exostrike@reddit
Mainly because they know it's the only way they're getting the hostages back.
15 months of genocidal war has revealed netanyahu's talk of Hamas being days away from throwing up their hands and releasing the hostages in unconditional surrender to be delusional.
Letshavemorefun@reddit
Maybe. Or they must want the hostages back.
Either way - what your strategy for how Israel could have been more effective at taking out Hamas?
apistograma@reddit
It's clear that they don't want the hostages back more than war. You don't destroy the entirety of Gaza unless you don't care about killing most of the hostages.
Israel can't keep the path. They lack manpower and resources, and some Israeli soldiers are already refusing to go to war. Morale must be at a record low.
Letshavemorefun@reddit
Which is it?
apistograma@reddit
Most Israelis aren't going to war. I'd they did nobody would want to continue
Letshavemorefun@reddit
Youre the one treating Israeli’s like a monolith by making generalized statements about what they do and don’t want.
apistograma@reddit
Yep, that's the worst indictment against Israel as a society. They do have a relatively representative government on par with most European countries. I'd say their politicians represent the will of the people better than in the US.
If they were a dictatorship you could argue that the religious radicalism and the barbarity are from the government but aren't supported by the population. But as a democracy this is not the case.
I'm pretty sure that Iran wouldn't be a theocracy if the will of the people was respected. And they're a far less atrocious regime than Israel. So one can assume that Iranians are far more reasonable and moderate than Israelis.
I'd honestly believe Israelis are amongst the most radicalized and extremist people on the planet right now.
ycnz@reddit
Iran wouldn't have been a theocracy without the US overthrowing the government in favour of the Shah.
And even now, when Israel's arbotrarily bombing Iranians, Iran were still the ones de-escalating, focusing on military targets well away from civilian areas.
China, I don't really understand well enough. I disagree with some of their approaches, but given how things have gone in Western society lately, democracy really isn't holding up well. Individuals here are too fucking stupid to be allowed to vote
john_cooltrain@reddit
Were they not democratically elected?
Letshavemorefun@reddit
They were - but Israel uses a coalition system and coalition systems don’t always reflect the will of the people.
john_cooltrain@reddit
Trying to understand here. So, in which countries do elected officials represent the will of the people, according to you?
Letshavemorefun@reddit
I don’t think it’s a binary thing. More of a sliding scale. My point is that a coalition system doesnt always reflect the will of the people and in this case - if you look at the numbers on the views of Israelis on this topic vs the views of the people in charge, they aren’t the same.
mycargo160@reddit
96% of Israelis voted for one of the parties that supports the genocide. Their "views" are quite clear.
Letshavemorefun@reddit
Which party are you referring to that got 96% of the vote?
mycargo160@reddit
I didn't say a party got 96%. The Arab party controls about 4% of the seats, according to Wikipedia. None of the other parties support a two-state solution, which is the only way this war ends other than a complete extermination of the Palestinian people or continued terrorism on both sides for eternity.
Letshavemorefun@reddit
That is definitely not true. Yeah Atid (the second biggest party in Israel) supports a 2 state solution.
Electronic_Main_2254@reddit
He's not, he just throwing numbers in the air, hoping that no one will actually check them. Even if you're excluding strictly the Arab parties in the israeli knesset, his numbers are off, because they received around 10% of the votes. If you're adding the left wing parties it's obviously higher.
cultish_alibi@reddit
20% of people living in America voted for Trump. I don't think that represents the will of the people either.
Letshavemorefun@reddit
I don’t know the numbers but I’m assuming you mean when you take voter turnout into consideration? Anyway, I don’t think the US system is great for reflecting the will of the people either.
mycargo160@reddit
Only one of the ten parties that currently hold seats in the Israeli government opposes the genocide, and that's the Arab party with fewer than 4% of the seats. The people of Israel voted for this. The people of Israel support this.
Also, Israel backing out of the ceasefire is not "really good news for Gazan civilians." What the actual fuck are you talking about?
Letshavemorefun@reddit
I was referring to the fact that religious Zionists were threatening to back out of the coalition as a good thing, not the ceasefire deal falling through. Less religious Zionists in power is a good thing imo. I want a change of leadership in Israel.
SuccessfulWar3830@reddit
6 seats of netenyahus governemnt are the Otzma Yehudit party. In english this translates to Jewish power/ Jewish strength. This party seeks to remove all of its perceived enemies from inside Israel.
It's leader Itamar Ben-Gvir, a man who possessed propaganda of terrorist organisation Kach. He also claimed credit for preventing a ceasefire in gaza.
He is the current head of the minister of national security.
Israel is a fascist country.
TheS4ndm4n@reddit
I'm guessing his definition of "inside Israel" also includes Gaza and the west bank?
SuccessfulWar3830@reddit
On 24 February 2019, party member Itamar Ben Gvir called for the expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel who are not loyal to Israel.
The party is against the formation of a Palestinian state, and advocates cancellation of the Oslo Accords, as well as for imposing Israeli sovereignty over the Temple Mount.
Its the "Kill all non jewish people" party.
Itamar also said that a anti zionist activist should be sent away "on a train"
TheS4ndm4n@reddit
That sounds kind of familiar...
SuccessfulWar3830@reddit
You would have thought knowledge of the holocaust would prevent that kind of ideology for a Jewish person but it seems to have inspired him instead.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Some folks saw the atrocities of the Holocaust and decided to take notes, rather than say "Never Again."
Those folks also just so happen to have gotten leadership positions in the Israeli far-right.
SuccessfulWar3830@reddit
Yeah they went from "Never again" to "our turn"
It is actually well documented that victims of abuse become perpetrators of violence themselves.
themightycatp00@reddit
It seems to be selectively trusted on this sub, the decision on how trusted it is based on the title
amineahd@reddit
This has been shown again and again like hundred times now its just many people ignore those clear evidence and still follow propaganda... quite sad
apistograma@reddit
That's one of the best victories of Zionist propaganda. Convincing the west that the religious fanatics are the Arabs against Israel, and Israel is a secular country.
Zellgun@reddit
There’s a reason this one of the most violent Israeli campaigns, not just in Gaza but in the West Bank too.
The current Israeli coalition of government is the most radical, extremist, religious and far right ever in Israel’s history. The main party Likud traces its history and ideology to a recognised Zionist terrorist group called Irgun. Otzma Yehudiit is based on Kahanism, an extremist ideology based on terrorism. Religious Zionist group is focused on religious supremacy, territorial expansion, increasing illegal settlements and features numerous members who are openly anti-Arab. Shas is a religious group that is heavily anti-LGBT, supports conversion therapy and pro-apartheid.
The interesting thing is, this current coalition combined won a larger percentage of the Israeli vote in 2022 than Hamas did over 18 years ago.
Israelis love claiming to be the “only democracy in the Middle East, and if that’s the case then what does this say about the people of Israel?
Fight4theright777@reddit
I vote in Lebanon like every 2 years... not sure how we dont qualify as a democracy. Google says we are. My voting says we are. Thats always irked me.
Also thats an interesting state about Israels govt and Hamas. I always figured oppression leads to extremism poverty too... but the Israelis dont have either of those problems. Wild
mittfh@reddit
Iraq is also a (very fragile) democracy, albeit the political settlement imposed after Sadaam's departue (with major government roles reserved for a Kurd, a, Sunni and a Shia) encourages high levels of corruption, while various political factions have militia the government doesn't do anything about for fear of upsetting political stability, the US and Turkey both carry out military action on alleged terrorists and Iran has a strong influence, so it doesn't yet enjoy full Sovereignty.
ycnz@reddit
Yeah, that's the thing. Democracy's only a virtue if a significant proportion of your population aren't evil assholes.
BuyShoesGetBitches@reddit
It's all in god's name bro, he told us to slay the nonbelievers, so we are just carrying out his command.
talsmash@reddit
Read about Israel's Minister of National Security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir
Redditthedog@reddit
he is a glorified security guard for west bank settlements he has no military policy control
Srinema@reddit
… is that why he’s on video handing rifles to illegal settlers, with soldiers on either side of him?
arostrat@reddit
Israelis online always try to gaslight the internet that nobody supports their militant politicians. Oh that Natenyaho who was elected for 30 years? He's just a random guy don't take him seriously he doesn't represent the Israelis.
cultish_alibi@reddit
Yeah but that's fine. Don't talk about it because it doesn't matter.
bradicality@reddit
"Over the past year, through our political power, we have succeeded in preventing that deal from going through, time after time," Ben-Gvir acknowledged.
Haaretz no paywall
ycnz@reddit
Interesting stats in this poll - https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-deep-divisions-on-gaza-war-goals-as-post-october-7-solidarity-dissipates/ - there are bloodthirsty barbarians in Israel in general, in particular if you come across a right-wing Jewish Israeli, they're just insane.
krulp@reddit
These right wingers don't even want phase on 1 and are voting against it.
Netanyahu is being pressured by Trump and Biden for the ceasefire before Trump takes office so he has to agree.
ShootmansNC@reddit
The last year has shown Israel is nothing more than a bloodthirsty and fascist ethnostate.
Kophiwright@reddit
Times of Israel is one of the trusted news sources for Israel alongside the Jerusalem Post.
I say trusted for Israel, but know that its heavily biased towards the IDF and Israel in general, and still holds anti-arab/anti-islam biases.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
"Religious Zionism" is such a strange concept. On the one hand, you have people who believe Jews were cast out of Israel for breaking the covenant, condemned to wander the Earth until the arrival of the messiah. On the other hand, Exodus (or one of the other books, I can't recall) endorses the complete genocide of the inhabitants of conquered lands if those people refuse to surrender.
It's difficult to know who is right in this situation.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Judaism is not realy united in term of believes. There are many currents, some think that Israel itself is heresy for exemple.
Tho zionism is first and foremost a nationalist movement, that believes that jews are more then simply a religion : it s a people.
As a non religious jews, I am very warry of this religious zionism. If they had their way, they would have Israel fight the whole middle east, comit genicide, all for some more useless lands.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Judaism as a whole is rather problematic for non-Jews, simply do to the fact that Judaism makes a very clear distinction between Jews and non-Jews. I'm not sure this kind of discrimination has a place in the modern world.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
This distinction exists in every Abrahamic religion where it is far worst (fidels vs infidels). In truth, it exists in almost every religion, you are a follower, or you are not
At least, judaism wont try to concert you and wont murder you for following another religion.
In the jewish religion tho, jews should be a force of good that guide other peuple toward greatness/happiness/etc.
I wonder what you think about other religion if you think judaism is a problem, when it is probably the least problematic of the big religions (well, outside of buddism and sikhs, but they are based as fuck too anyway).
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
You are correct about the other Abrahamic religions to some degree, but here's the thing.
If I find myself in an Islamic country and I am being persecuted for not being a Muslim, I can just convert to end my persecution.
If I find myself in a Christian country and I am being persecuted for not being a Christian, I can convert to end my persecution.
According to Jewish law, I can not end my persecution for not being Jewish. In fact, Jewish law specifically states that gentiles are not protected in many aspects of Jewish law. The same cannot be said for Sharia, and Christianity has no such legal framework in the first place.
That is where we get into difficulties.
Rrrrrrr777@reddit
What the fuck are you talking about?
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Are you Jewish? Have you read Duteronomy? It is quite specific in how gentiles should be treated.
Rrrrrrr777@reddit
Yeah? How?
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Can you see how that passage might be concerning to people who are not of the Jewish faith?
Rrrrrrr777@reddit
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were an ancient Canaanite.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Ah, no. That passage refers to every city in the world.
That one refers to the cities of the Canaanites, and others.
Rrrrrrr777@reddit
These are talking about divinely ordained wars, not the treatment of non-Jews in general. I can’t tell if you’re trolling, or just a medieval peasant level antisemite.
Fight4theright777@reddit
How is quoting the old testament in an argument antisemitic? That word has lost all weight this last year holy hell. If making you look stupid in an argument is antisemitic I suspect reddit has a problem.
Throwaway5432154322@reddit
How exactly do you think that non-Jewish Irish redditor stumbled across random passages from a Jewish text from Antiquity and decided to classify them as “proof” of how Jews “mistreat gentiles” in 2025?
Not via a holistic study of the Torah, or from talking to actual Jews.
It’s incredibly obvious to Jewish people online when this happens, but - whenever you see someone try to quote a ~2,000 year old religious text as “proof” of some kind of perceived “bad behavior” of Jews today… that person is an antisemite that just read a post on 4chan titled something like, “Ancient Jewish Texts Reveal Sick Secret Beliefs of ‘God’s Chosen’”.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You know that people can just... read the Old Testament, right? Basic literacy isn't anti-Semitic, sorry to break it to you.
Fight4theright777@reddit
lol bro your victim complex seems heavy af give yourself a break and put it down for a while
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Are you at all familiar with Catholicism? The Old and New Testaments?
What a strange thing to say.
HorizonBC@reddit
The only reason it is antisemitic is because it paints a bad picture of Zionism, ironically using same writings the state of Israel was founded upon.
You haven’t even tried to explain why that passage isn’t relevant which I’m sure would help our understanding.
After reading, it seems to loosely align with the Israeli government’s actions since its founding.
Prefects@reddit
Holy shit the propaganda being spewed. I wouldn't even bother.
Rrrrrrr777@reddit
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were an ancient Canaanite.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
First of all, it seems you have a 30s understanding of judaism, you should probably go talk to a rabi or something to learn something that isnt tainted by antisemitism. While I am jewish myself, I am not religious and not the best to answers your question.
You need to understand that judaism is about 3 thousand years old, and so are some texts. Jews know it. By the 1 rst century, many texts were already outdated, and already contradictory at first read.
As thus, in judaism, just reading the text is not enough. What you need is the modern interpretation of rabbi, that will explain you how modern jews should live.
So yeah, enslaving cities is not very jewish nowadays. Many old laws are not followed today in general
Then about the conversation thing : it is possible to convert to judaism. It is a long process tho.
And no one should have to convert to have living rights (I would think an Irish would understand that).
And remember that under Islamic law, infidels have no divine rights (at least in the modern interpretation). They are free to be murdered, raped or enslaved upon conquest, and then live at the mercy of their overlords.
Remember, slavery is still alive and well in Islamic states. And that Muslim and Christian too follow the "old" testament.
Just go talk to a rabi. Jews are not the monsters you think they are.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Brother, please do not tell me that what I see is not real. From the Rothschilds to the Resnicks of California. The Kissengers, Millers, and Blinkens. The Weinsteins, the Epstiens and Shapiros. The Zevis and Franks.
For centuries, certain Jewish people have allowed themselves to be manipulated into being the public face of oppression and cruelty. Go back to the liberation of Ukraine from the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth to see why that is unwise.
I am not antisemitic, it is irrational to hate someone I have never met or have no knowledge of. However, I despise anyone who maneuvers themself into a place of wealth or authority and then uses that power to oppress the common man.
My issue with Judaism, an idea that came about a very long time ago, is that Jews are above all else. There is a type of racism and supremacy backed into the very core of the religion. And it is not just some ancient text to be disregarded, it is a culture and a mindset that persists to this day.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
And what do you see ?
Cause there are terrible people of every race and religion. Yet you focus direcly on jewish ones as if being jewish is what made them evil.
Tho I dont see how Anne Frank is evil but you do you.
And yeah Jews will value jews before others. Just like Irish people will value Irish people before others. Just like you will value your family before others. It s human nature.
But then again, you seem to know barely anything about judaism yet seem to hate it noneheless. Go talk to a rabi.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Absolutely, there are terrible people all over the world but a disproportionate number of them in the west appear to be Jewish. So is that a cultural thing or just pure coincidence?
Jacob Frank, not Anne Frank.
Yes, Irish people will look after Irish people for the most part but we have also allowed hundreds of thousands of refugees and asylum seekers into the country. But that is another discussion in itself.
I grew up Catholic. I was an alter boy and attended catechism school. I've read and studied most of the Bible (skipped Numbers, it's very dry). One of my favorite channels on YouTube is Esotericism, but I'm not sure if Justin is an actual rabbi. I probably know more about Judaism than many people who identify as Jewish.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
So, let's break it down.
It comes down that jews are disproportionatly in position of power and wealth. Thus they have a lot more famous people. Thus more bad famous people.
You wont learn about your evil nobody.
The proportion is still the same.
Now, why jews in position of power. Well, that s cultural. For centuries jews were banned from landed work, so had to learn skills that could work everywhere... Healing, banking, engineering etc. This is still the case today. Academic excellence, carrier, and work ethic are part of the jewish culture.
You ll notice this is the same with many asian communities in the US. They are overrepresented in STEM not because they are smarter, but because their culture value it a lot.
You ll notice a disproportionate ammount of jewish famous scientists for exemple.
The other point is that those skills became very lucrative, thus leading to jews becoming richer than farmers for exemple. And then generational wealth.
So it comes down to "more jewish famous people", "thus more famous bad jewish people". Proportion of bad people stay the same.
There is no jewish cabal behind the scene, only my grandma steering me toward higher studies.
...
So refugee things. Jews are not realy in the position to allow refugees to come, since we have only one tiny country.
Tho you ll notice a very high number of jewish charities and donations. They also provide services, most notably hospitals etc.
I doubt you understand much of judaism, if you think reading the bible will help you understand judaism. You did not even know about currents or interpretations.
You should realy talk to a rabi, just like you would talk about christianism to a priest or islam to an imam.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Ok, good. I picked this one paragraph because I think it's important. I don't really care who my rulers are, be they Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddist, Hindu, or whatever. As long as they are doing a good job and the majority of people are safe and content, it really doesn't matter. So let's take a look at a country like the United States, currently the wealthiest and most powerful state in the world. Do you think the majority of Americans are safe and content? Do you think America's foreign policy is making the world a better place?
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
I mean, America is overwhelmingly led by christians...
I dont know how american feels, I m not american. Tho it seems they love democraty sooo
I think america's foreign policy is making the world a better place but could do much better.
Thanks to America, and the west, enlightement values are seen as the best what you should thrive for : democraty, equalily, freedom.
Thanks to America and the west existance, most countries will think twice before invading their neighboors or genociding a minority or two.
It is far from perfect, shit still happens.
Yet thanks to the west foreign policy, many invasion were foiled, human rights are more prevalent than ever before etc
Tho I dont realy see the link with jews
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Brother, you are absolutely deluded. Maybe you should spend some time learning about the world you live in before having such discussions. Or at the very least, learn to be more honest when debating others.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
If you dont think freedom, equalily and democraty, that s on you.
And if you believe America is controlled by jews, that s on you too.
But then again, you re so deep into your antisemitism I feel like I'm taking a 90 year old far right grandpa :
-Jews control the west
-Judaism is about racial superiority
-Jews are unabnormaly evil
Now, since you know so much about judaism, are you going to recite me the elders of Zion ?
Bro thinks he is an expert of jews, did not know you cant read text without rabbi interpretation
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
As a French man, what are your opinions on the Fench action against Libya in 2011? Do you believe that action brought freedom, democracy, and equality to that country?
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Still, what is the link with jews ?
I think the idea was good. Khadafi was a brutal dictator that needed to go down, like Assad.
But the execution was terrible. An utter failure that made the situation probably worst than it was.
But as I said, shit happens.
While the west failed in Lybia, it succeded in Yugoslavia for exemple.
But the greatest impact is the passive one. Countries that get closer to the west will usually get better in human rights.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
No link with Jews, just showing that your perception of the world is not in synch with reality.
As I said, if you refuse to be honest when debating others, it's probably best to avoid debates. It's easier to lie to yourself than to someone more intelligent than you.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
I dont understand. Do you think Khadafi was a good thing ? Or Assad ?
Do you think human rights are bad ?
What s your reality ?
I m very confused right now with this exemple
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
You don't understand because you don't know anything about Libya, Gaddafi, Syria, or Assad apart from what you are told by the media.
I thought Jewish people valued education but you don't seem particularly well-educated.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
I mean, I know that non democratic regimes are bad (tho it varies a lot).
I know that democraty is good.
Go on, try to defend Assad. Maybe I've missed some parts. Was he a democratically elected, benevolant ruler that should have been protected and cherished ?
Honestly I d like to know your views on Ukraine and Guyana, it should be intresting. Even on Yugoslavia.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
I'm not going to debate someone on subject they clearly have no understanding of.
Before 2011, I had absolutely no knowledge of Libya. After the coup, I spent hours reading about the history of Libya, about Gaddafi, about Libya's modern systems of education and healthcare, as much as I could find because I wanted to understand why this was happening.
When you have spent that much time learning about Libya and Gaddafi, come back and we can have a discussion.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
I dont know enough about Lybian healthcare. But then, tell me that democraty would have been bad for Lybia ?
And you skipped all the other points.
What do you think of democraty and human rights ? Ukraine ? Assad ? Yugoslavia ? I ll even give you the Falklands if you want.
Saying Gaddadi was the best for Lybia because it was rich is like saying that Saudi Arabia should stay as it is because it is rich.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42038451
What democracy? What human rights?
Educate yourself, because your ignorance is astounding.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Yeah, yeah casualy skipping all my questions. Good at debate I suppose.
Did you not read when I said Lybia intervention was a failure ? It s pretty common knowledge that there are slave markets in Lybia.
LiquorMaster@reddit
What the fuck are you talking about? Your understanding of halakhic law isn't just incorrect, it's made up bullshit. If your going to stand on the old testament and its ancillaries as some sort of justification to spouting off islamist bullshit, you should probably read it entirely.
If you want to debate Jewish law, I'm game. Can you name what interpretation you'd want to operate under? And which rabbis you'd like to cite in advance?
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
I m going to do the 2 jews 3 opinions things but is there realy heavens as in christian heavens in judaism ? It s a bit muddy after the messiah comes.
Tho this Irish guy is trying to read a 2500 year text like the fucking Coran.
LiquorMaster@reddit
You're right, but calling it by its actual name would be entirely lost on these people.
How does one describe the metaphysical feeling of being close to G-d?
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Of course, most Jewish people today are descended from converts. But a prospective convert still has to petition a rabbi and can be rejected for whatever reason. And prior to the reform movement, conversion was a long and intensive process.
Can you explain the Jewish laws regarding the repayment of loans and the charging of interest?
FudgeAtron@reddit
Holy dog whistle batman
I'm glad the facade has dropped.
Are you going to ask if we grind up Christian children to make bread next?
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
I dont realy get it. Loans and interest exists everywhere no ?
Even the Catholic church expected interests... Through late penalties. You were supposed to repay your loan to late, so that the church would fine you and make a profit.
FudgeAtron@reddit
There's no need to offer extra explanations on usury in Judaism when the laws are the same in the catholic church and Islam. Asking someone to do so is a dog whistle, especially when we consider the context of the rest of the comments.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
If I were to guess, I would say neither groups are right. But those who think genocide is acceptable or what God wants are on a whole different level or category.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
The book of Joshua is pretty much just one genocide after another.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
I have heard similar about old testament books.
If there is a God though, it doesn't mean he approves of any of what is written in the Bible. It sounds like there are many books or scrolls which could have been included but weren't.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Yahweh, the god of choice, was the Canaanite god of war and thunder. He was one of twelve or so gods at that time, which included such figured as Ba'al and Molech. In Exodus, some of the Israelites return to worshipping these other gods out of desperation. Moses has them all put to death.
My point is, a god of war usually approves of war and all the things that go with it.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
The Bible speaks of one true god. He is seen as both merciful and vengeful. Both a god of war and of love. There seems to be inconsistencies, perhaps caused by human error and the Bible not actually having God's backing. But these are hypothetical points and impossible or nearly impossible to prove.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Imagine getting stoned to death by everyone in the village because you told your dad to fuck off. Truly a loving and merciful god.
swelboy@reddit
Tbf just about everyone was horrible at the time I we judge them by modern day morals.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
A lot of people are still pretty fucking horrible.
Leather-Paramedic-10@reddit (OP)
Yes, there seems to be inconsistencies. Which seems to indicate to me that humans alone wrote the Bible. And it is kind of remarkable to me that some people think otherwise.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Thankfully, most Jewish people don't seem particularly religious. To them it's like a fancy pair of shoes you put on for special occasions or a wink and a nod to the bank manager when applying for a loan. It's whatever, lots of different groups do favors for their members.
It's the hardcore idiots like the people in this article who seem intent on reenacting a biblical genocide because that's what their god commands. That's a problem for everyone.
apistograma@reddit
It's almost as if the Jewish Bible/Old Testament is a compendium of texts of different eras written by people with differing theologies and political agendas that is being used all the time as an excuse to manipulate the masses.
You want to use it to justify genocide: pick the story of Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, Samson in Gaza or any of the multiple mass murder and genocide stories.
You want to use it to justify mercy and pacifism: pick any story about forgiving people
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Deuteronomy 20, 16-17 cover genociding the people.
Private_HughMan@reddit
This is fucking evil. How can these people even exist. They're so bloodthirsty that they will quit in protest if the killing of Palestinians doesn't resume. Such ghouls.
It at least shows how pathetic the "emergency" Netanyahu declared was. The only emergency was that his coalition wouldn't be able to kill more people.
Quiet_Firefighter_65@reddit
These people exist because the United States and the West allows them to.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
They exist because the US and the West lavishly fund and support them. Israel would not exist without the billions aid from the US and Germany, the preferential trade deals with the EU and the diplomatic pressure the west puts on other countries to limit criticism of Israel.
Zipz@reddit
You do realize for years at the beginning against worse odds no one supported Israel right ?
Yet they still survived.
NewAccountEachYear@reddit
Ever heard of Balfour?
proterraria@reddit
what about it?
GalacticMe99@reddit
It insinuates that Israel doesn't need international support for anything it does, protection against terrorist action or conduction terrorism of its own. Which is propably true to an extend. The Iron Dome is for a big part produced in colaboration with the US so without that more Hezbollah and Iranian missiles would make it through but that would just mean Israel would have to focus the defenses it does have on military installations and political institutions like most countries do. So at the end of the day more Israelis would die and there would be more damage but the country as a whole would be relatively fine.
marigip@reddit
Obviously the statement „no one supported Israel“ is hyperbole at any point in history but I’m pretty sure they are specifically talking about the Arab-Israeli war in 1948 in which Israel had very limited (albeit not none, eg from the soviets via the Czechs) external support
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The British trained Zionist militias and left both light and heavy weapons when they pulled out, Germany started war reparations and the British and French supported Israel, but sure, let’s pretend that Israel wasn’t lavishly supported right from the start.
Halbaras@reddit
And this is exactly why Israel has failed as a democracy. The majority of voters choose parties who are fine going into coalition with these ghouls.
'The only democracy in the middle east' isn't such a great boast when they keep voting for human rights abuses worse than even some of their autocratic neighbours are committing.
swelboy@reddit
Eh, who says democracies aren’t able to be horribly oppressive? Also, it’s not like a lot of Likud voters were happy about Netanyahu working with them.
apistograma@reddit
Israel is the best proof that ever existed that democracy is useless if the majority of the population are radicalized extremists.
Democracy is a better system than dictatorships, but it only works as long as most people are minimally rational and humane.
Beautiful_Bag6707@reddit
TBF, the majority who voted for Likud, had no clue that they would make a coalition with these smaller parties. Hence, the huge marches in protest.
You need 61 seats to form a government. This is how the majority voted. Likud got the most votes but couldn't form a government with just 34 seats. If they didn't make a coalition, it triggered another vote. Instead of making some coalition to the middle or left, they went cuckoo for cocoa puffs to the far right. Clearly, the majority of voters didn't choose that.
NewAccountEachYear@reddit
You can't be a democracy if your society is based on ruling another people. It corrupts any society.
Fight4theright777@reddit
If Israelis only want peace why is it that everytime there is the slightest chance at it they protest? Or they nickel and dime a deal to death? Is that what peace loving types do? Palestinians are dancing in the streets at the thought of peace and Israelis are protesting and crying? Lol. Protesting the possibility of getting their beloved hostages away from the sexual deviants of Hamas????? Make it make sense.
When a state is founded on murder and theft this is the outcome. An entitled population whose happiness hinges on the misery of the other. Its surreal to see up close.
FlavorJ@reddit
There will always be someone protesting.
The only win for Israel here is the return of any number of hostages. Everything else about the deal is a solid loss. It's very bittersweet, with emphasis on the bitter. People in Israel aren't celebrating because 1) there will still be 2-3x the number of hostages as will be freed in p1, and 2) the man primarily responsible for planning the Oct 7 attack was a previously-freed prisoner.
Israelis aren't celebrating because freeing prisoners means more attacks to deal with.
Fight4theright777@reddit
The genocide stopping sure has them upset
reddit4ne@reddit
So look s like theyre banking on the idea that 6 weeks from now, Trump will lose interest, and that this all just a dog and pony show so Trump can brag during his inauguration. Probably right. But its still crazy how unapologetic they are about being bloodthirsty warmongers. Trump doesnt care about Palestinians, but he's not gonna react nicely to having his cease fire deal go up in flames -- so Israel is gonna be working hard to pin blame on Hamas. False flag time?
Intrepid-Debate5395@reddit
They won't need to do much. During almost every ceasefire deal they've had they continued to drop bombs after the deal.
Hell they do that in Lebanon currently.
Thek40@reddit
A hostage deal, Ben-Gvir and Smothrich quit the government and going to election?
What a bundle of good news at the same time.
Even the voters of the right wants a deal and to end the war, Ben-Gvir and Smothrich are doing it just to cover their asses.
kas-sol@reddit
The fact that Netanyahu isn't even close to being the most genocidal person in that government coalition is honestly frightening. People with these morals shouldn't be allowed to have nuclear weapons.
Intrepid-Debate5395@reddit
Which Is why i always find it weird when people say getting rid of netanyahu solves anything in israel. Israels problems are fundamental to the society itself.
Netanyahu didn't lose votes due to his corruption but because voters believe he wasn't rightwing enough pre Oct 7th and that is reflected on the even more extreme far right getting a larger share of votes.
Agnimandur@reddit
Ahh yes, but the morally upright USA, China, and North Korea should be allowed to have nuclear weapons.
Tell them to give you their nuclear weapons because they're not "moral" enough!
Gilamath@reddit
I... I don't think the person to whom you responded would advocate for the US, China, or North Korea having nuclear weapons, either. You've basically advocated for a global nuclear non-proliferation treaty, a cause for which the Left has been fighting for decades, and which until recently was seeing some genuine success
Agnimandur@reddit
It's not going to happen for a long time, especially after Ukraine.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Who knows. There will be a unique opportunity for the US and Russia to talk when the peace negotiations finally start. I don't see why further nuclear treaties couldn't be discussed aswell.
Srinema@reddit
Nobody should possess nuclear weapons. None. They are weapons of mass genocide.
Agnimandur@reddit
Yeah obviously I agree but we live in the real world. Nobody is going to give up their nukes, especially after what happened to Ukraine after they gave up their nukes in 1991.
Srinema@reddit
Yes, I know we have crossed that threshold and can never go back. If humans know of a weapon, they can’t help themselves.
My point was - your argument sounded like an attempt at a “gotcha” - as if criticizing Israel somehow means approval of others stockpiling nukes. In the same way, other countries having nukes doesn’t protect Israel from criticism. Particularly when Israel has refused to engage in any international co-operation regarding non-proliferation/cooling the nuclear temperature, so to speak. And none of their perceived enemies have nukes, so deterrence is not a valid excuse either.
Also it’s perfectly reasonable to state that Israeli leaders are too immoral to possess nukes, so long as it’s acceptable to say that states like Iran must never possess them.
rabidfusion@reddit
It's just nationalism.
Apparently somewhere in some religious doctrine it says Israel is promised to the people or something, like 3000 years ago.
Like holy shit, and I thought I could hold a grudge.
They've layered their ideology so close to their religion that questioning their ideological beliefs and religious beliefs have become one in the same to them.
That's why they opt for the claims of antisemitism.
Alternative-Code-673@reddit
Or if you oppose them, you support Hamas I guess.
rabidfusion@reddit
If you support Palestinians, you support Hamas in the eyes of Zionists.