Top-Gun Navy Pilots Fly at the Extremes. Their Brains May Suffer.
Posted by newzee1@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 160 comments
Posted by newzee1@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 160 comments
theL0rd@reddit
NYT had an article about Navy elite speedboat crews a few days back
https://www.reddit.com/r/sandiego/s/XzQ6v60wGr
the_other_paul@reddit
They’ve also written multiple articles about troops exposed to repeated explosions (artillery crews, special forces, grenade instructors)
pocahantaswarren@reddit
It’s a great series. Dave Phillips the journalist also did a good series on the seal training world and the dark side of it, including how dropouts from BUDs are treated like total shit and several have committed suicide. He also has a great book on SEALs.
Le_Mooron@reddit
I'm a NFWS grad and flew the classic Hornet. Almost 2000 hrs in the cockpit. I've got neck issues but fortunately don't have any concussion type issues, so far. I did have a classmate commit suicide a couple of years ago tho. No idea if it was G force related.
Frog_Prophet@reddit
We all have neck and back issues. And we’re all deaf. But I was shocked to see they’re worried about brain injuries.
Le_Mooron@reddit
All in all I'm pretty good. I quit the hornet when I was in my mid-30s. I was flying constant bfm almost every day for 3 years as a rag ip. I was constantly taking ibp for all the joint pain. It magically went away a few months after I quit. And my hearing is actually pretty decent. Take care.
2manyiterations@reddit
Obligatory “user name checks out!”
Le_Mooron@reddit
Haha. yep
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
this is so sad:
When I flew U-2s for the Air Force, we had to get a brain MRI every 3 years to monitor for voids that would develop from the high altitude. I'm sure all the g-forces hurt these F-18 pilots way more, but I wonder if they're getting microlesions from "soft" DCS cases. Probably not.
AFrozen_1@reddit
The way you just dropped that on us.
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Hahah yeah I’ve been retired for two years now and I still can’t believe I got to fly the Dragonlady, it still feels surreal. I occasionally look at my U-2 highlights folder of some video/pics I took while flying and it gives me that same tingling frisson that kids get on Christmas morning. There truly is nothing like flying that legendary bird on some SRO missions around the world, playing games of chicken with guys who want to shoot you out of the sky, all with the American flag slapped on my tail and working with what might be the best brotherhood on the planet.
Chemical_Claim3069@reddit
Please revisit us again and drop some stories. Tell us what its like at "79,999.99" ft. Whatever you are allowed to share though. Dragon Ladies are thee coooolest airplanes ever! I eat up any and all U2 story, from that guy at EAA who took a pic in the Northern Lights, to vids chasing the U2s as they land, to Top Gear's James May reflecting up at altitude. Good stuff
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
One way to show people what it’s like is to make it relatable. Go outside and look up. You might see a contrail or two from an airliner that looks like a speck because it’s so far up there. You might even see some wispy cirrus clouds, the highest on Earth. Everyone has seen contrails and cirrus clouds, but only from underneath. Here’s what they look like from above:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5c1xzk912a0m69iz46v1t/Contrails.jpg?rlkey=q39d4dhcvpl1y8fup99ku4j5y&st=dxagmg8j&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yrnrrpnpm9s9jg95cix9i/Cirrus.jpg?rlkey=yafmw6acolx8qu6qtazszog02&st=tl5d7lz4&dl=0
jchispas@reddit
Incredible photos. Thanks for sharing your stories. Just an fyi your name (or what I assume your name is) is visible when viewing the drop box. Not sure how much you want or are allowed to share on the socials. Just a heads up.
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
I appreciate looking out for me. But that name is a carefully tailored alias that has no connection to my real name or identity. Joshua Star is also an alias with no connection to the real me. Even though I'm not a spy pilot anymore, I still follow some of the OSINT strategies we used to protect ourselves. I use a different unique alias for every single online service (google, reddit, dropbox, protonmail, spotify, everything), kept track with KeepassXC. I use MySudo VOIP to compartmentalize all my phone numbers (personal, utilities, finance, medical, etc...), only use Signal for texting, and have a prepaid sim card (under an alias) on my iPhone (also registered with an alias). I acknowledge it's impossible to be fully anonymous these days, but at this point I just do it for fun.
In fact, I delete all my reddit history once a week for this reason. Check back in a week and if you can still see this, leave a comment to remind me.
Jango214@reddit
That's amazing.
Is it like standard practice for all U2 pilots when serving or do you just do it for fun from the beginning?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
No, although there is quite a bit of training lovingly called “advanced beatings” that is required for sensitive reconnaissance operations. Everything I described really only would protect against American law enforcement, criminals, and terrorist organizations. Nation states like China and Russia know who all of us are, not just because of the OPM hack, and that kind of protection would be moot. In fact I will never travel to Russia or China for that reason. It would be way too easy for an agent to slip a sensitive USB drive my pocket to make me become a political pawn. A colleague went on a cruise that landed in one of those countries and for his day trip on shore, he was tailed by two agents who, when he tried to board the boat, pulled him aside for additional interrogations. Fortunately tensions were low at that time.
undocumentedfeatures@reddit
That sounds SEREious :)
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
only time I've ever been hit in the face
Jango214@reddit
Makes sense why the AF would want the identity of the pilots to remain secret.
Chemical_Claim3069@reddit
As someone in tech, I highly approve of this! You're not messing around
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
It makes me feel way more important than I actually am, let’s be honest no one is trying to “hack” me
Chemical_Claim3069@reddit
Maybe, but I do most of those things as well, to minimize exposure to future data breaches, any Cambridge analytica type company from manipulating my vote, or Nissan type companies from exploiting my sexual preferences
gdaytugga@reddit
That first photo is such a great perspective, what a view knowing when looking from the ground the contrails seem so far up
Chemical_Claim3069@reddit
Wow dude. You gotta start an only fans
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
It’s crossed my mind. My niche would be dudes who like the topless volleyball fantasy from Top Gun.
LurksOften@reddit
These are absolutely wild given the context.
coltonkotecki1024@reddit
Holy shit this paragraph has me ready to run through a fucking WALL
Zerot7@reddit
Seeing the “retired for two years” through me off. I thought the U-2 got mostly retired after Golf War and the rest after Operation Iraqi Freedom with the proliferation of drones. So I would have figured you would have been retired way longer. Nope still active in the 9th Reconnaissance Wing so TIL something which is always nice.
thebarless@reddit
Ah yes, the “Golf War”:
It all started at Camp Fairway, the military base known for its top-notch golf course and overly competitive officers. General Hackett from the Army, a self-proclaimed putting prodigy, challenged Colonel “Mad Dog” Malone of the Air Force to a friendly match. Things went south when Malone quipped, “Army couldn’t sink a putt if the hole were the size of a crater.” Hackett fired back, claiming the Air Force’s idea of golf was “dropping balls from 30,000 feet and hoping for the best.” Before long, the Navy and Marines joined the fray, and a full-on inter-branch tournament was declared.
The match quickly escalated into chaos. The Air Force rigged a golf ball with GPS and launched it from a drone, while the Army countered by dropping balls via artillery. The Navy showed up in a speedboat, commandeering the course’s water hazards, while the Marines took over the sand traps, digging trenches and calling them “strategic bunkers.” Golf carts became armored vehicles, and someone planted a smoke grenade in the 12th hole. Even the Coast Guard made an appearance, patrolling the course’s pond with jet skis.
The war ended on the 18th hole when all four branches teed off simultaneously, causing a mid-air collision of golf balls that sparked an explosion of turf and pride. Exhausted and covered in divots, the officers declared a truce over beers at the clubhouse. No one won, but a plaque was erected: “The Golf War: Fought Bravely, Won By Chaos.” They returned to duty, united in the knowledge that sometimes the real enemy is gravity—and a terrible short game.
Zerot7@reddit
Thank god for autocorrect.
AFrozen_1@reddit
That’s super cool! How hard was it to fly?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
It was a pleasure to fly between 6 and 60,000 feet. One centerline engine with no torque, cable and pulley flight controls, glass cockpit—it’s truly a pilot’s airplane. Outside those altitudes though it gets really difficult, especially in the latter half of a 12-hour mission when you’re exhausted, hungry and dehydrated, and extremely sore. I recall one mission when I was brand new where I had to hold an altitude in the mid-sixties, where you’re basically riding the L/D max due to the coffin corner. But you have to manually adjust the throttle (normally you push it up to max on takeoff and leave it there until final descent, letting it slowly climb as it burns fuel) to keep your airspeed within the narrow limits while the autopilot will hold the altitude.
I got busy and let my airspeed/throttle drop from my crosscheck. A little while later, I heard the stall warning tones as I approached within 3 knots of my stall speed (let’s just say 90 KIAS was my stall speed). The autopilot was pitching up to maintain altitude, but as all competent pilots know, when you get below L/D max (98 KIAS), pitch controls airspeed and throttle controls altitude.
So now was in a situation where I had to pitch down to keep from stalling, as the throttle would only make me climb, but then I would break altitude and bungle up the collection. Even worse, the mission controller would ask why I was busting altitude and it would get debriefed and as a new guy, I absolutely did NOT want to start my career like that. So I checked the target deck and waited until after I took an image, then bunted the nose down to break the “falling leaf” stall, and zeroed in on my airspeed. As soon as I hit L/D max, I GENTLY pitched the nose up to maintain EXACTLY 98 KIAS (had I been aggressive with the pull up, I would’ve entered an accelerated stall) and successfully climbed back up to my assigned altitude without anyone noticing. So flying up there has its own unique challenges.
And of course trying to land an aircraft that just wants to fly is tough too, especially when you can’t see the runway due to the nose, pitch attitude, and 30 pound helmet. So having the mobile officer tell you how high you are is great.
laxatives@reddit
Can you say more about the helmet?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
it's nothing crazy, it's a heavy helmet that completes the pressure seal with the rest of the space suit. It has a pressurized clear visor with a sun visor you can drop down, a little port to slide in the straws for the tube food or water bottles. The annoying things are the neoprene face seal that keeps the oxygen around your face, which has to be tight around your chin, sideburns, and forehead, and the exhalation port that squeals so fucking loud right in your right ear. The side visibility sucks too, and when you turn your head to see left/right, your head turns inside the helmet against that neoprene face seal. NASA's space suits have the seal around the neck, so their heads are much less constricted, but the Air Force is gonna Air Force and keep things as inconvenient as possible.
MarcellusxWallace@reddit
Imodium…I know what that is because I picked some up today for a trip to India.
That’s gotta be a shitty experience if you’ve gotta pull those out
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
I had one near Code Brown in Korea and always flew with some after that. Ironically immodium is prohibited to take in flight by Flight Medicine.
SlightScene9286@reddit
But the ground crew, I wonder what they think on a ban on Imodium.
BigDummy777@reddit
Don’t you guys need chase cars when you take off and land? How does that work?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Yeah the mobile primarily serves as your wingman to help with everything, including taxiing because of the enormous turn radius and lack of visibility. They let you know if you’re wings or pogos will hit anything, like raised taxi lights or ground equipment. The pogos are unpinned when you line up for takeoff by a maintenance crew and they fall out once your wings generate enough lift to rise up. Sometimes they might get jammed and you’re airborne with a kinetic weapon that might drop at any moment. For landing, they drive behind you to let you know how high your main wheel is because a proper landing requires you to fully stall the aircraft at 2 feet—if you touch down with enough energy to still fly (i.e. before you stall), then you’ll bounce back up and get into some damaging landing anomalies, which includes stalling from above 2 feet (imagine dropping $100 million of sensitive equipment from 5 feet). Then, once you stop, the heavier wingtip will fall to the runway. In what might be the most hilarious procedure in the military, the pogo maintenance crew will jump on top of the higher wing to level them so they can install/pin the pogos so you can taxi off the runway. Civilian airports hated us because we would close the runway for 5-10 minutes on both takeoff and landing.
Jango214@reddit
Wait, you landed at civilian airports too? Why though?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Yeah, most of the time it was planned, but almost never with sensors.
BigDummy777@reddit
You guys use any old car or get some sporty thing?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Dodge Chargers for the most part, some Pontiac GTs, but the absolute best were Teslas because you need to accelerate from 0-80 in a hundred or so feet
nvn911@reddit
You need to go on the Fighter Pilot Podcast!
Jango214@reddit
So does the mission controller constantly monitor the flight or is it periodic updates or after mission debrief?
Also, what sort of missions do you still do? (I know exact would be classified, but generally). These days it would be pretty easy to detect a U2, so what particular advantage does it provide over a satellite for imaging? Speed of image acquisition maybe?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Yeah there’s an intel officer who monitors the mission on the other side of the datalink, along with dozens of others in a big windowless building somewhere. I obviously can’t go to deep into specifics but having an asset that high affords you an enormous view. Theres no need to fly over North Korea when you can see the whole country outside their airspace. Satellites are great but their orbits are predictable (much more than the U-2) and it can take weeks to reposition them over an area of interest. There is some interesting theories put forth by British author Chris Pocock on his website dragonladytoday.com about LEO constellations but I have never heard or read anything official about that topic. I swear, British aircraft enthusiasts know more about the U-2 than I ever did.
usmcnapier@reddit
I'd be interested to hear what kind of feedback you had from different situations for helping the optics out. Did you have to actively avoid weather at times or change the flight path to accommodate different situations to assist the optics?
Speaking of, did you know when you had new big fancy optic upgrades on board and what they were capable of?
Thanks so much for sharing, what an exciting thing to hear about today.
Marty_McFlay@reddit
It's also Reddit, the odds of it being true are super low.
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
you are correct, comrade, I am a Russian bot.
nice_flutin_ralphie@reddit
Fuck me the noise that line made when it dropped was deafening.
Super-Skymaster@reddit
Yeah, can’t just say “When I flew U-2s for the Air Force…” so casually.
You don’t start a 14-course meal and go straight to dessert. That’s just mean.
That’s just as unfair as my friend’s father who said “When I flew B-47s…” and trailed off wistfully.
alcohaulic1@reddit
So casually too.
8rnlsunshine@reddit
Damn! 🫡
freakazoid2718@reddit
This is one of the bigger "tell me more" moments I've seen in this sub.
Raid-Z3r0@reddit
Dad lore gets dropped when you least expect
CyberSoldat21@reddit
Isn’t working with such powerful radars also dangerous to?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
there is an urban legend about how pilots tend to have girls instead of boys because sitting a few feet behind a radar (whether it's for weather, targeting, or imaging) fries your sperm, but there is no data that supports that theory. The radar sensor doesn't emit anything towards the cockpit, so it actually isn't a significant factor. But the BIG factor is cosmic and solar radiation. Anyone who routinely flies above 40,000 feet is classified as an occupationally exposed worker, so we flew with dosimeters that measured our exposure for each flight in mRems. Most of the time, it's well below the limit of 5,000 mRems per year, but during a solar storm with a CME directed at Earth, you could hit that limit in a single sortie, depending on your geomagnetic latitude. For the most part, most pilots receive less than 300 mRems per year from high-altitude flight. Terrestrial folks tend to get about that much from everyday life, so really, flying up high increases your radiation exposure by ~50%. As a point of reference, a chest x-ray gives you about 2 mRems.
Merad@reddit
What happens to the unlucky guy who has to fly a mission during a CME and maxes out his exposure? Do they basically end up grounded (from U-2 missions) for a year?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
They don’t fuck around with radiation exposure. One of my colleagues had a classic military incident involving radiation exposure. Each pilot has two dosimeters: one to fly with, and one that stays in their locker to act as a control. Well, after a long holiday weekend, the life support techs came into work and heard an alarm going off in his locker. His control dosimeter was beeping because it had registered 10,000+ mRems. Obviously it was a malfunction because he hadn’t flown and the absurdly high dose just wasn’t possible in a locker on the ground. Well, Air Force medicine didn’t think so—they grounded him for months, subjecting him to various radiation tests and were ready to permanently ground him because, on paper, he had exceeded a lifetime of radiation exposure. With the help of outside experts, he finally convinced them that he could still fly, but he was still subjected to additional limits to keep his radiation exposure down.
The highest dose ever recorded was a test flight over the North Pole, which was specially to measure the exposure difference between the equator and the poles (it’s like 8x more), but even then I think it was 800 mRem per hour.
iampewpew@reddit
Getting an erudite Redditor’s perspective of “aerospace medicine” makes this the most fascinating Reddit read for me in a long time. I’m an MD with a background in physics, chem and biology who spent some time in the Blue Zoo.
DavethegraveHunter@reddit
Out of interest, did you ever notice a difference in the amount of times you got ill throughout your work life (e.g. viruses, colds, etc.)?
The increased exposure to radiation may have helped in that case, as has been seen in U.S. Navy nuclear sub shipyard workers…
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Not more than any other flight regime. For me, if I have one shitty night of sleep then I'll get a severe cold the next day. They say there are four pillars of well being--Mind, Body, Relationships, and Purpose--but those pillars are built on a foundation of sleep. And what career field gets shitty sleep? PILOTS! Crossing all those time zones, disrupted circadian rhythms, the early wakeups and late bedtimes--that wrecks havoc on your body's immune system. So the biggest factor (at least for me) for general illness is my sleep quality, which was actually worse when I flew tankers due to the typical mission taking me around the world compared to U-2 missions, which typically departed from the same time zone for the whole deployment. The Air Force conducted a recent study in the last few years that examined cancer incidence in u-2 pilots and found no difference between them and the control group, so it's likely that there are no significant additional risk factors from flying high like that.
Then again, I was medically separated due to complications from a bone tumor, so who knows?!
DavethegraveHunter@reddit
Interesting. Thanks for your reply.
myredditthrowaway201@reddit
As a lowly helicopter maintainer for the Navy I’m fascinated learning all this stuff about high altitude flight from you
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
the most important thing I hope you take from me is that you need to document every medical issue while you're still on active duty. too many of my bros have been denied VA healthcare for issues that are obviously caused my their service but because they never saw anyone while on active duty, they can't connect it to their service. Don't be afraid to tell your doc about anything.
myredditthrowaway201@reddit
I’m actually getting out in about 5 months after 9+ years and have my first C&P appointments coming up this week!
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
My man! I always recommend everyone who’s ever served in the last 20 years to see Behavioral Health at least once. I think it’s impossible for anyone who watched the collapse of Afghanistan make their sacrifices worthless to go about the rest of their lives with no impact to their mental health, even if it’s slight. Later on, if you start having issues (divorce, alcohol, irritability, whatever) that has been partially influenced by your service, then you will need to point to something in your military medical record that links it. Even if you just tell your doc “Hey, I’m wondering if I can see someone at behavioral health to help with a minor issue” and then talk to a specialist there that you’re nervous about transitioning out, or maybe you want some help in coming up with a list of desirable habits you want to adopt, and even if you just see behavioral health only one time, that will help you immensely in the future if you start to struggle. Behavioral Health is NOT mental health, there’s no stigma, your commander won’t see what you talk about, they can’t diagnose or prescribe anything, so there really isn’t anything to lose.
Western-Sky88@reddit
Well this has unexpectedly been the most interesting thing I'll read all week.
Thanks, man! Your username says that you're an author - have you written a book, and where can I buy it?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Haha thanks. I was medically separated from the U-2s for unrelated reasons and since I can never fly again (FAA won’t give me a medical), I’m in an MFA right now to do a career pivot to author. I’ve written a few things here and there and have done a few readings/talks under various aliases, although only one can be considered “published” (it’s under my username in this literary journal: https://tuxedojournal.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/final-version-tuxedo-compressed-3.pdf). My MFA thesis is a satirical war novel about the withdrawal from Afghanistan (think of Catch-22 for the Global War on Terror) but that’s years away from publication.
I’m not saying I wrote this one (https://heroicheartsproject.org/story-of-an-anonymous-veteran/) but whoever clearly has a good reason to remain anonymous.
CyberSoldat21@reddit
Thank you for your insight! Much appreciated.
Academic-Hedgehog-18@reddit
What is soft DCS?
IISerpentineII@reddit
Per u/JoshuaStarAuthor, decompression sickness
Academic-Hedgehog-18@reddit
Oof.
Ok so. I should know this. Life long diver. Never extended the logic to pilots in low pressure environments.
Really starting to understand why pressure suits were ubiquitous on high altitude aircraft.
Thanks u/JoshuaStarAuthor
ImReverse_Giraffe@reddit
A good study would be F1 drivers. They experience similar Gs in similar conditions a similar number of times.
They're regularly pulling 4-5 Gs through corners and they do that 23 weekends a year.
Altitude probably has a lot to do with it.
nfield750@reddit
Great, a U2 pilot - are they really as demanding to fly as I’ve read ? Besides monitoring height, what else does the chase car do ? - thanks
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
It is but not in the ways you expect. We train to land with no mobile (no voice landings) because with one engine, you’re likely to divert or land at an airfield far away from any chase car. I had to land NORDO once when my comm cord frayed over Korea, and let me tell you, flying down from the edge of space without talking to anyone was the most serene flying I’ve ever done. I remember I descended into some cirrus clouds (which is an unusual event on its own) and popped out between layers. The sun was setting and cast a beautiful golden light into my cockpit, and all around me were rolling, transparent “hills” of clouds that marked the top edges of a humid air mass. I studied Atmospheric Science in college and am a sucker for that kind of thing.
But the mobile also serves as your wingman. All Air Force single seat jets fly in formation but not the U-2, so the mobile officer monitors the mission on the ground, provides emergency assistance when necessary, and helps clear the aircraft while taxiing. When you put the whole space suit on, your IQ drops by 50 points, so having that kind of help is huge. Plus, when you’ve been sitting in the cockpit for 12 hours, hungry and dehydrated and buzzing off amphetamine and caffeinated chocolate pudding, landing that thing is enormously difficult—especially when you’re carrying a one of a kind $100 million sensor. No pressure.
Jango214@reddit
So you had no comms, and just decided to go at your designated alternate witth no comms and those guys knew you were coming? Amazing.
Some of these stories are wild, so I am just commenting everywhere!
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Nah, it was my filed destination (same base I departed from), I just squawked appropriately, made calls in the blind, and thoroughly enjoyed the quiet 60 minutes it took to descend. Let me tell you, flying a full instrument approach from the IAF to final takes a long fucking time when you’re flying at 160 KIAS.
nvn911@reddit
This has turned into an AMA and I'm all for it! Love your story Sir!
Jango214@reddit
Must have felt surreal, the peace and quiet so high up.
pissshitfuckyou@reddit
Clouds are fucking beautiful when you learn to notice them
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
yeah I decided in college I'd much rather look at real clouds out my cockpit window than look at simulated clouds on a computer.
JohnsonJesus@reddit
Can’t just drop in with “I flew one of the most bizarre and unique aircraft ever created” and not tell us more!
buttplugpeddler@reddit
Sorry. Busy shitposting on Reddit now.
😂🤷♂️
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Haha you’re not wrong, it’s the natural progression for retirees
Ibibibio@reddit
Just don’t lean too hard into any arguments you may get into on the war thunder forum
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
I’m so glad that dumbass got 15 years.
TG484@reddit
Did the pressure suits not fully prevent them? I guess I always just figured as long as a seal didn’t fail that you were golden.
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Before the 2012 cockpit upgrade (spurred by this incident: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/killer-at-70000-feet-117615369/ ), the cockpit was pressurized to ~30,000 feet, which is brutal on your body, even with the nitrogen-purging 100% oxygen prebreath for an hour. Imagine getting transported to the top of Mt Everest from sea level, it would kill you due to the nitrogen bubbles in your blood and is why climbers have to acclimate on their way up. With the prebreath, you’ll live but there’s still enough nitrogen remaining to wreck havoc on your brain. The suit is there only to protect you from a rapid decompression to 70,000 feet (engine failure, ejection, etc…) because if you are exposed to pressure altitudes above the Armstrong limit of ~60,000, your blood will boil.
The cockpit upgrade brought that cockpit pressure down to a manageable 14,000 feet, which has still caused minor DCS incidents in some pilots. The two-seat trainer, however, did not get the upgrade, so we still occasionally fly around sitting at 30,000 feet. You don’t actually need the space suit if everything functions normally, but that’s obviously a bad way of thinking when flying anything, never mind a military jet.
TG484@reddit
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I had always figured the suites kept the pressure higher than the cockpit for that reason. I didn’t realize they only really did anything during a depressurization incident.
With long mission times at 30k feet pressure I can completely see why it would have such risks.
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
one of the worst parts about flying the U-2 is the oxygen hangover. It's not oxygen toxicity--out of curiosity when I was a fresh-faced deuce driver (and because I'm a nerd), I ran the numbers and learned that oxygen toxicity would only kick in if you're breathing 100% oxygen at sea level for ~12 hours, and at 14,000 feet PA, it would take ~24 hours--but it's just the unique physiological demands of sitting at such low pressures for so long. After even a 6-9 hour mission, you're dead the next day. Your body, especially your muscles and joints, have a persistent dull ache. Your jaw starts grinding from all the yawning as your body starts offloading the excess oxygen into your ears, which also keeps this painful positive pressure on your ear drums that always pushes them out. In fact, the regulations stipulate that after a 9+ hour mission, you can't fly for 72 hours, and the first 24 hours is dedicated time off to recover.
But it's not all bad. Breathing pure oxygen has some benefits. Smart U-2 pilots will have a high flight the day before their PT test because you can run so much faster and longer. Once, after landing from a 9 hour mission, I immediately ran a 10k on a whim and fucking killed it. Sprinted the whole thing. But that could've been the go-gel too.
TG484@reddit
Listening to BC Thomas talk about flying the RB-57 on interviews made me really appreciate the challenges of flying between the stall and Mach buffet. It’s hours and hours of constant focus…
Even though it isn’t a “fast jet” in the traditional sense, I have mad respect for those fly high altitude missions.
whiskeytangofirefox@reddit
The article explicitly mentions U2 pilots as of 2012.
Wondering if SR71 pilots encountered this as well?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
They did, but SR-71 sorties were MUCH shorter, like 6 hours tops. I don’t know what they’re cockpit pressurized to, but I do know they went as high as 89,000 feet. Duration is incredibly important for DCS, but that also includes repeated sorties. The pilot mentioned in the article tried flying again after recovering, but as soon as he got up to altitude, the sharp pains came back immediately, so he wasn’t allowed to fly the U-2 again. Another U-2 pilot had a severe DCS case and wasn’t allowed to fly anything again, but she went on to fly the Global Hawk and she was one of the finest officers I’ve ever served with.
bake_gatari@reddit
what does DCS stand for here?
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
Decompression Sickness, creatively known as “the bends” because the nitrogen bubbles tend to alter your balance and make you, well, bend. Most people know about it from diving, where you can’t just go from 100 feet down back up to the surface because the decrease in pressure will cause nitrogen to come out of solution in your blood and form bubbles of gaseous nitrogen. Bubbles float, right? So when you’re sitting upright in a cockpit, where do bubbles in your blood go? Your brain. It basically causes multiple mini strokes if you’re lucky, and will cause immediate incapacitation followed by death if you’re not.
reeeeeeeeeebola@reddit
Not a big U2 fan but my dad loves you guys
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
this will never get old, heh
Comfortable_Pie3575@reddit
Is this a nested dad joke?
Eggcelent work.
KuyaGTFO@reddit
Hey man, just wanted to say thank you for what you do. Your jet has my favorite engine noise I’ve ever heard, and I’ve been up close to 22s, 35s, B1s, your engine noise has juuuuuuust the right note.
JoshuaStarAuthor@reddit
thank you sir, there's something delightful about F-118's whine, especially when you're in the right noise cone behind it. I will never complain about hearing jet engines over my house. Although I would love to hear the B-1 takeoff, I've heard those 4 afterburners produce the loudest takeoff noise in the inventory.
Logical_Marsupial140@reddit
Wouldn't this impact USAF and other international fighter pilots as well? Is this issue somehow related only to the Super Hornet?
taxpayinmeemaw@reddit
It’s the cat shots and the arrests
usernamealreadytaked@reddit
The study specifically just looked at TOP GUN graduates. IMO it would affect all fighters who continuously have aggressive, high-G maneuvers. Maybe not tankers, airlift, bombers, and attack aircraft, but jets like the F15, F16, and F22 who do more close-quarter air engagements.
Electrical_Army9819@reddit
Unless it is cat shots and carrier landings causing or compounding the damage.
Frog_Prophet@reddit
The cat shots are brutal. I can see that being bad for my brain.
myredditthrowaway201@reddit
Sorry, not service connected
Logical_Marsupial140@reddit
It noted suicides by Naval aviators, I don't see any suicides being noted for other air forces. Did they only analyze suicides within the Navy, or did the Navy report the suicides which pushed for a study?
usernamealreadytaked@reddit
The study only focused on naval aviators. Didn't look at other branches, but I'm sure it's going to push others to look into it as well. I haven't gone through any additional screenings except for standard pre- and post-deployment stuff everyone else in the air force goes through
Sniperonzolo@reddit
EM radiation and toxic stuff we may breathe has usually been at the top of my list of concerns (remember “Raptor Cough”?), never thought about pulling G as something damaging, other than giving some neck / back problems later in life. Many of us are also very competitive and used to “having to be the best”, I wonder how much getting to the end of a flying career affects the mind of fighter pilot with things such as depression and anxiety, seeing how you are old and feeling not good enough anymore… maybe this has more to do with those suicide cases than anything else…
Interesting to find out more though…
Taptrick@reddit
I mean, good on the Navy for trying to figure it out? Many employers would just continue ignoring the problem. Of course they won’t advertise it. People in the military generally understand the job they’re getting into has risks…
BFEDTA@reddit
Reminds me a lot of this article about something super similar: signs of brain injury showing up in artillerymen routinely exposed to “lower level” blasts: each blast individually isn’t considered strong enough to be traumatic, but it seems like repeated expsoure is still resulting in signs of brain injury.
TheDentateGyrus@reddit
There's unfortunately a big separation between layman press and TBI research. We've known for some time that blast waves of any sort cause TBIs. It's just a matter of how much and how often.
I was always jealous that the Israelis got to use one of the absolute COOLEST models of TBI. No fluid percussion waves, no weights dropping on heads, they would set off blasts next to mice to cause TBIs. Supposedly the IDF would help them out with it. In nerdvrlle, having your military set off C4 in the desert for your experiments is SO MUCH cooler than being stuck in a lab all day bonking rats on the head.
stringitandbringit@reddit
Known a few in the community who suffered TBI-related symptoms after multiple instances of cabin pressure swings (nomenclature for these has changed a lot in the past few years). Specifically in the Super Hornet community, the Navy did a really good job getting to the root of that matter and fixing/creating preventative maintenance on the affected systems.
From personal experience, that of many, many experienced coworkers, and the experience of teachers along the way with thousands of hours, I don’t think cats/traps/G’s are the culprits.
It’s a much more “it depends” kind of answer 😉
pup5581@reddit
That's a given. The stress and G forces on their necks and brains can NOT be healthy long term. I wonder if it's similar to a concussion when they do those moves and the brain is forced to move when it shouldn't.
Messyfingers@reddit
Just to keep this in perspective, if the most a fighter pilot feels is 9g, thats a fraction of what most of the literature suggests is needed for a concussion(70-120g)
But that is usually a sustained G load not instantaneous. Throw in other factors, high altitude flying, potential for faulty systems providing less oxygen, all manner of chemicals, electromagnetic radiation, etc. fighter pilots probably get exposed to a huge number of different things that can cause brain issues. G loads could be the primary cause, but likely aren't the only one
GTOdriver04@reddit
Serious question: do F1 drivers have to worry about this as well?
I know F1 and flying Super Hornets isn’t the same thing, but both experience frequent high-G loads and I’m sure someone with the career longevity of Fernando Alonso would have to worry, no?
MelsEpicWheelTime@reddit
Absolutely. Great point. It's the same axis for catapult launches and recovery, which are referenced extensively as traumatic brain injury events in the article. The brain is 3 pounds of jello in a bucket. The article specifically mentions that g loads in any profile or axis will cause shear stress between cells and neurons.
G-III-@reddit
Different axis g loading. A pilot is more on the Y-axis, while a formula 1 driver is more on the X-, and some Z-axis.
Main difference is the Y-axis is the one that primarily impacts blood flow to the brain.
MelsEpicWheelTime@reddit
It's the same axis for catapult launches and recovery, which are referenced extensively as traumatic brain injury events in the article. The brain is 3 pounds of jello in a bucket. The article specifically mentions that g loads in any profile or axis will cause shear stress between cells and neurons.
tsflaten@reddit
This is something few people realize. The body can handle significantly more G Forces on the X axis (this is why astronauts takeoff laying on their back). The Y axis is very problematic from a cardio pulmonary perspective.
IntoTheFeu@reddit
Fernando has had his share of catastrophic crashes… the one in Brazil 2003 is outrageous.
Qel_Hoth@reddit
Though isn't there emerging evidence that repeated subconcussive hits may cause brain injuries as well?
TxtC27@reddit
Not just in rugby like the other person said, but American football, soccer, etc. Pretty much any sport involving lots of contact has been subject to these concerns lately, and the term to describe it is CTE
IC_1318@reddit
Yes, it seems to be the case.
It's a big topic right now in rugby. Apparently the repeated "small" hits that are experienced every day can be really destructive over the course of a long career, while the rare "big" hits that result in concussions and injuries are the ones most people think about when they think about brain injuries.
Messyfingers@reddit
I'm unaware, but it wouldn't surprise me. We're still talking about a pretty wide range though, and a profession that's just bukakkeed in risk factors.
SumerianPickaxe@reddit
Fucking beautiful line sir
BuffsBourbon@reddit
The cat shots are brutal.
Longjumping_College@reddit
Id expect the G forces constantly impacting the hearts ability to pump enough blood to the brain might contribute to these things.
dansedemorte@reddit
You only hear about their need for speed, but never do you hear the need to read....
aw3man@reddit
This is the second brain injury story the NYT has run recently about the Navy. The first was about speedboats. I wonder how many more stories we'll get about these types of injuries in the future.
Nulgrum@reddit
Its also not necessary at all. We already have unmanned combat jets such as the X-47B that have been so successful at outperforming manned jets that they were put on ice as the military would lose one of its biggest recruiting tools (the dream of becoming a fighter pilot) if the programs were to continue. Its kind of hilarious that we still insist on them being manned in 2024 when that technology has been surpassed for decades.
Argosnautics@reddit
Service doesn't care. They bent young divers by the hundreds.
incertitudeindefinie@reddit
Sadly it’s not just Top Gun that flies like this. They undoubtedly fly more often, but pretty much all jet pilots are pulling rapid onset Gs
Makes sense but it never occurred to me that G onset might be squishing my brain against my skull
lobsterstache@reddit
Wonder if it has a similar but weaker effect on all pilots
Randadv_randnoun_69@reddit
I've been wondering recently how likely air-to-air dog fights really are these days? With long range missiles and most jets being a 'strike fighter' air-to-ground type role, are the massive g-forces their pulling in training really necessary and worth it? Is it a requirement to hard bank while popping chaff/flare to avoid a SAM on a 'stealth' plane? I'm genuinely curious, not making assumptions.
Frog_Prophet@reddit
With complicated ROE, stealth, jamming, and battle fog? A dogfight is actually quite likely.
If the radar sees you, then absolutely yes.
Turkstache@reddit
Former Hornet guy here. 100% concur.
Festivefire@reddit
People have been predicting thr death of the dogfight since the first radar missile, and it still hasn't happened, because the defensive systems and battlefield clutter keep up with the capabilities of the offensive systems.
WarthogOsl@reddit
I wonder if this affects Top Fuel dragster drivers. If we are just talking about launches and landings, I think the dragster drivers endure more acceleration and deceleration g forces starting and stopping.
Radiant_Raspberry_14@reddit
Well, yeah, no shit, taking a cat shot feels like you’re getting your teeth kicked in half the time and your heart can’t stay in your chest. Of course it’s fucking your brain up.
Plus nobody I know DOESN’T have neck and back pain, or hasn’t been exposed to some sort of pressurization issue (which can have similar effects on the brain as a concussion).
Frog_Prophet@reddit
The rapid cabin fluctuation event might be the real culprit here. I know they found that improperly addressing a significant pressure swing event could cause permanent damage. Depending on when some of these guys flew, they likely could have had some gnarly decompression problems but there was no slam stick or cabin pressure motion to flag it.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
"Officially, the Navy denies that there is a problem."
Of course they do. They have a long and glorious history of it.
mythrilcrafter@reddit
Can't use grandeur and fanfare of Tom Cruise & Co doing all those stunts as a recruiting tool if there's the irl sub-text that many of those pilots (and possibly even Tom's character himself) would have had permanent injury/disability as a result of a career doing all that stuff...
CrouchingToaster@reddit
They are desperately trying to find a way to blame this on a gay sailor, give them some time
BrtFrkwr@reddit
They did that last time. Have to try something new.
Yasin3112@reddit
"Your brain aneurysm isn‘t service related"
bake_gatari@reddit
Paywalled
No-Animator-2969@reddit
I've always wondered how hard the lifestyle is on the heart?
Had a relative who was a pilot, instructor, and eventually skipper of topgun in the 80s who passed of heart issues quite "young."
I had no clue about the suicide and brain problem as it relates to flight.
I imagine any competitive high stakes academic and physical environment like that would certainly worsen any underlying health issues mental or physical.
Immediate-Event-2608@reddit
Fighter pilots get brain damage from high G?
That explains a lot, actually.
pattern_altitude@reddit
What do you mean "that explains a lot?"
flume@reddit
Fighter pilots are stupid, didn't you hear? The military entrusts $x00M worth of super secret, lethal technology to pilots who have to wear onesies because they're too dumb to put on separate pants and shirts, duh.
tsflaten@reddit
I’m not tracking your insinuation. Are you jealous you’re not a fighter pilot so “there’s something wrong with all fighter pilots”? Just not sure of the point of your statement or if this is a bad attempt at a joke.
Still-Farm3067@reddit
If that’s the case, you must be a regular Maverick.
Uthallan@reddit
You already need brain damage to conscience working for the the hyper-violent American war crime military.
3pinephrin3@reddit
You would think, but the propaganda here is actually so good that many reasonably normal people justify it
marcocom@reddit
I watch a lot of interviews with retired fighter pilots as a hobby and I’m usually interested in how bright and energetic they both look and sound, even in their 80s. I’m not sure this checks out as a normal occurrence. Probably they will find some biological pattern and then screen for it, eventually. Maybe not everybody is built for the strain
SpiderSlitScrotums@reddit
The less energetic and deceased ones probably aren’t giving interviews.
Apophyx@reddit
Also, selection bias. The type of person to become a fighter pilot will probably be a fairly energetic and enthusiastic person in general