Short field on a windy day - flaps up or down?
Posted by 1E-12@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 29 comments
Let's just assume you HAVE to land at this airfield which requires you to perform a short field landing procedure...
Today is a particularly windy day - right at your limits. At your home airfield you would have gone no flaps so that you have a bit more control during your approach and landing. At this field you don't want to carry any extra speed, but you also don't have much room if you get blown off course to the side. To make things worse you are at critical fuel so you only get one attempt.
What do you select for your flap setting and why?
spacecadet2399@reddit
Full flaps and a little extra speed gives you a bit of the best of both options.
Honestly, I basically never landed without flaps by choice even if it was really windy (at least I can't remember a time that I did outside of a training scenario). But I added 5 or 10 knots to the speed plenty of times.
ce402@reddit
As I’ve said in many of these, it doesn’t matter. You’re going to crash either way.
The skill required to successfully execute either plan is demonstrably not present by the mere fact you placed yourself into this situation in the first place.
Substantial-End-7698@reddit
What you’re speaking is invulnerability, one of the 5 hazardous attitudes to pilots. The idea that it won’t happen to you will get you in trouble someday. We all make mistakes and bad decisions, TEM is largely about responding to unexpected threats. Whether we are the source or not is irrelevant.
ce402@reddit
It would be resignation, not invulnerability. But I think you’re missing my point.
The point is it’s a bullshit hypothetical; the solution is to not place yourself in a situation where your only option is to land at that airport with those conditions.
spacecadet2399@reddit
You're not wrong about putting yourself in that situation, but believe it or not every pilot has different strengths and weaknesses. I've flown with plenty of pilots who have below average ADM and above average stick and rudder skills, as well as the reverse.
So to suggest the question is moot because only pilots bad at everything would get themselves in that situation, and good pilots never would, is not really correct on either end.
Substantial-End-7698@reddit
You’re right, you’ve got both.
The question is so simple and I don’t know why you’re having such a hard time with it. It’s just asking what’s more important to you, reduced flaps for gusty conditions or reduced landing roll? Obviously that’s something that can’t have a straightforward answer, but it doesn’t have to be “any good pilot would never find themself in the situation” because the fact is any experienced pilot would agree that sometimes you find yourself in unexpected situations where you need to find the best way to mitigate threats. It’s good that OP is thinking of these things, rather than saying “I’m such a great pilot that this would never happen to me, so it’s not even worth discussing.”
RW-One@reddit
I don't like the question parameters set up.
If you're at a field you have to land at funding conditions at your limit AND are critical fuel, then you planned poorly.
Diversion to an alternate was not made in a timely manner.
1E-12@reddit (OP)
It was implied that a poor decision led to the situation. A decision still has to be made!
RW-One@reddit
Since I'm not going to be in that situation, it's a question I don't have to consider.
Besides, I only need an opening slightly larger than my main rotor and I'm good.
1E-12@reddit (OP)
I'm sure it has happened before, and I'm sure whoever did it KNEW they made a bad choice (someone even shared a similar story below). But at that moment a decision still has to be made. Give it a shot! Or don't, I don't really care - but you are missing the point of the question.
RW-One@reddit
I'm not missing the point, but you're missing mine.
Yes, it's all fun and dandy to discuss situationals and what you would do, however, I can tell you from a long time of experience that someone else is going to read this and when they find themselves in a situation that's similar, they'll feel that they can attempt to do it, or worse, they'll allow themselves to get into that situation because they feel there's maneuver or method for getting out of it.
If you follow my point, the supposed hypothetical pilot in this situation won't encounter it because of proper flight planning adherence to that plan and knowing when to abort a flight to an alternate if weather and or just the conditions are not good to continue, My hypothetical pilot is not going to end up over Asad airport in a fuel critical situation in the first place. Hence the discussion is moot for that pilot.
We can agree to disagree here but I stand by my statement.
Urawizardharry99@reddit
This is Reddit not your check ride, dial it back a bit Jimmy Doolittle
RW-One@reddit
I'll take that, Doolittle was a meticulous planner, especially considering the mission he flew.
Urawizardharry99@reddit
You’re a dork😂
RW-One@reddit
I'll ignore that...
1E-12@reddit (OP)
Agree to disagree is the best I can do.
FerryFlyer@reddit
In my Cherokee 140 with crosswinds, I prefer 20 degrees of flaps. It gives me the most control without becoming a sail for that pesky crosswinds that are trying to pull you off centerline. ✈️😁👍
BandicootNo4431@reddit
I'd tackle this by going no flaps but forward slipping it to just above my round out altitude.
Kon3v@reddit
How heavy is the plane? What type of plabe? If i was in a light 172, yup, partial flap. A heavy airvan? Full flap but as soon as the wheels touch that flap is put away no matter how its loaded.
1E-12@reddit (OP)
Just a hypothetical question, so, whatever your daily driver is. I think I'd also do partial flaps in a 172.
spectrumero@reddit
Standard landing with full flaps. If there's any decent headwind, in my aircraft (which has a normal approach speed of 50 mph) I can follow the glide path of a safe with the door open and get stopped within a few plane lengths.
I live somewhere windy, I find landings with zero wind more challenging than days with 25 knots of wind!
1E-12@reddit (OP)
Thank you for giving an actual answer and not pointing out the obvious fact that it's a shitty situation to be in!
xtalgeek@reddit
RTFM is always for choice. What does the POH say? And if you are so low on fuel that you can't go around, or go to an alternate airport where you can better handle conditions, you are one crappy flight planner and should go for remedial training.
alphamonkey27@reddit
In my limited experience ive had to experience this once, partially because i failed to plan and wanted to help out, but long story short had to divert and our best diversion option had a 20-25kt crosswind (we were flying a 172) luckily i was flying with my instructor at the time i was a ppl with an instrument, he had also got roped into this flight for the flight school. It was the one time he ever told me “i need to land this, and even then idk if i can” anyways dude fucking killed the landing but basically shit himself. We both cursed ourselves out for agreeing to the shitty flight and ending up in the situation. TLDR; dont agree to shit you dont like cause the flight school says they’ll cut you a deal.
bhalter80@reddit
Crosswind or headwind? If it's a big headwind your groundspeed is already slow resulting in a lower ground roll so even no flaps is probably a shorter roll than a no-wind short field landing. Compare the numbers in the normal landing performance chart when adjusted for wind with the short field numbers and see which you like better.
Then do 100 pushups for failing at ADM to the point this is even a question
ucmenotid@reddit
Your hypothetical situation is no bueno but I’d use full flaps. I only use partial flaps for gusty crosswinds, and not even every time with that. Also it depends a lot on your aircraft!
Similar-Good261@reddit
What does your POH say?
HailChanka69@reddit
Check your POH/AFM for any related information. Use the performance charts to calculate your landing distances.
Personally I’d probably use full landing flaps but maybe approach 5kts or so faster.
Disclaimer, I don’t have a ton of experience, only around 250 hours
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Let's just assume you HAVE to land at this airfield which requires you to perform a short field landing procedure...
Today is a particularly windy day - right at your limits. At your home airfield you would have gone no flaps so that you have a bit more control during your approach and landing. At this field you don't want to carry any extra speed, but you also don't have much room if you get blown off course to the side. To make things worse you are at critical fuel so you only get one attempt.
What do you select for your flap setting and why?
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