PM sends screenshots of conversations to anyone without concern
Posted by Rymasq@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 265 comments
Am I overreacting or is this a red flag?
I’ve observed this happen so much now that I have no trust in this individual.
One example, PM left a ticket asking what was left to close out, I said I had to speak with an engineering lead and maybe a network specialist to understand why the environment was seeing blocks. The PM then takes a screenshot of my response, opens a new group chat with the people I mentioned and asks them blindly if they had any idea what to do.
Just yesterday the PM reaches out asking for an architecture diagram to be updated. They then shared a screenshot of the conversation they had with the client. I saw the client saying how they had to send cat GIFs to get someone to respond to them. I mean isn’t that highly inappropriate to screenshot someone else’s words and use it to share a need? The worst part is I opened the diagram and the thing they wanted done was ALREADY THERE. The PM didn’t even look to see if it was done. I mean is this person a red flag or am I crazy? There are more instances of this person just sharing screenshots of conversations but they were not as ridiculous as the previous one. I have no interest in communicating with this person over chat because of it.
spoonraker@reddit
There's nothing inherently wrong with using screenshots as a medium to convey context. What really matters is that they might be a bit fast and loose with them, possibly
If they didn't use a screenshot they could have just as easily typed out, "hey guys, Rymasq says we need to pull in a network specialist to unblock this, what do you think?" and that's equivalent in my opinion and using the screenshot specifically doesn't matter at all. That example specifically feels like a very appropriate information exchange.
The screenshot of the client convo, again, just because it's a screenshot, isnt a red flag. Including the bit about cat gifs is obviously not strictly necessary, but it's also hardly a damning overshare either.
In my opinion, forget about screenshots entirely unless they're being so lax with them that they're pulling in completely unrelated things like visible documents in the background or something. A bit of unnecessary banter isn't a big deal.
What I would consider a red flag, more broadly than screenshots or any particular medium is simply being gossipy. What you've said doesn't really paint that picture for me.
A more innocent explanation is perhaps they're creating a paper trail any time they disagree with something to cover their ass. That way they're not just saying, "well the client said do this" when someone needs an exclamation, they're actually documenting it.
luna87@reddit
I agree with this take. The PM in this case probably shared a screenshot because it was the best way to pass on this information. A screenshot leaves no room for misinterpretation and is just easier/faster. Seems benign to me.
Western_Objective209@reddit
I guarantee the PM has to deal with people saying they didn't see a conversation or couldn't finish it because of x and y like all the time so they use this as a paper trail. Seriously a big part of their job is just making lazy people do work. ngl the examples OP gave where he gives estimates and the PM just pulls people in, you know OP was dicking around on that item and the guy just started the conversation to get the ticket moving
daguito81@reddit
Not even estimate, he just said he needed X to continue. Which to any PM worht their salt, that sounds like:
A) I need to talk to these people but havent been able to for X reason
B) This is complete bullshit, I haven't done anything with this and now I'm making stuff up.
For both of those options, the solution is the same. Find the people, put them together, say "Yeah he needs both of you to close a ticket, thanks for your help!" and gtfo.
If it was A, stuff moves forward. If it was B, OP looks like a dumbass when they start talking and realize he didn't need to talk to them. Either way the PM did their job. And seeing OP's comments up and down this thread. It is very much looking like B was happening and that's why they're so angry
Western_Objective209@reddit
💯
Sounds like the PM is doing a good job
NUTTA_BUSTAH@reddit
I agree.
and can even be positive in many contexts. If it's between a client and your colleagues, it can also show the culture and make approaching them easier when you know they are not a tight-ass or such. Makes everything more human.
qpazza@reddit
Sometimes it adds a memory anchor. "which message? the one with the cat comment? Oh yeah, I'm on it"
FoxRadiant814@reddit
What? Seems convenient. Are you having some kind of explicitly private conversation on a work forum?
ItsSLE@reddit
This is common and is usually because some conversation took place in a PM that should have been in a public channel. Unless something is indeed sensitive, that conversation belongs in a channel where others can passively see what's going on.
Sending the original words verbatim in a screenshot can be an effective communication tool as it removes an unecessarly layer of translation in some cases.
Obviously I am not privy to the specific details of your examples, but I can tell you that:
Are all common and accepted practice.
WRB2@reddit
Do not trust this person, regardless of what you are told or anyone says.
its_a_gibibyte@reddit
I have mixed feelings on this one. Certainly anything private should be kept private. But if a client has feedback, this is equivalent to simply forwarding an email to the people who should address the feedback.
Similarly, the New Group Chat issue is analogous to simply adding someone to an email.
LeoXCV@reddit
My biggest pet peeve is screenshots being used when it would be so much easier to handle if I could copy paste the content
Example: Hey can you go in the DB and check these records sends 1000px height, 30px width screenshot from an excel sheet with a list of IDs
I run local OCR just for these people
qpazza@reddit
Hey, can you add this article to the website. Sends screenshot of article.
I've actually had that happen
krista@reddit
i've been emailed a cropped screenshot of a few word docx icons that were on the client's desktop, then yelled at when i politely asked for a resend of the actual documents.
the email chain was forwarded to my boss' boss, whom forwarded a screenshot of the email chain back to me telling me to open the documents he forwarded.
boss' boss threw a shitfit when i explained i couldn't open the documents, and claimed he could open them just fine...
... he even showed me screenshots of the screenshots of the open word documents on the client's desktop as evidence he himself could access the files.
after some very polite explanations across a number of back-and-forths cc-ing big boss guy and my manager (who was on vacation) as well as several step-by-step guides of different ways how the client can get us a document, i was called a 'stupid broad' by the client and had my position threatened by the big boss.
--=
once the screenshot inception hit 3-deep, my manager happened to look at his email, then called me and gave me the rest of the week off. (so part of thursday and friday).
when i returned on monday, there was an email in my inbox of a screenshot of a screenshot of a word document of big boss apologizing to me and a really good free lunch.
i have no idea what my manager did to stop the recursive insanity/inanity, but whatever he did worked. the apology was very welcome as generally being a woman in tech when shit like this happens you are expected to just say 'sorry' and pretend it's ok you got treated terribly. i appreciated that manager.
wesleyoldaker@reddit
you were called a "stupid broad"?! What is it 1920? Oh, called that by the client. That sucks. At least it sounds like your direct boss is cool, and has a spine.
krista@reddit
yeah, the client was a piece of (bad) work that took a helicopter from their new jersey residence to the office in manhattan on the regular to ”avoid hassles”
bought bottles of booze upwards of a kilobuck to impress people
had tons of expensive technology he didn't know how to use, plus always managed to get the lemon year or model or product no matter how much he spent.
i was well parted from that job so this is hearsay, but reliable hearsay: he spent something like a hundred kilobuck$ on the failed fyre festival and ”lucked out” because he ”missed” it. hearsay has him in the hospital for something to do with a prostitute and boofing booze.
that kind of rich is just a different planet.
wesleyoldaker@reddit
Okay not to detract from your genuine complaint, but who says "kilobuck", and what on earth is "boofing"? 😆
krista@reddit
i say kilobuck, megabuck, gigabuck... mostly because it's fun to say.
as for boofing... well, i see you went and looked that up.
apologies, i thought that one was safe to reference without warning after the supreme court thing.
and no, i've never been involved with boofing ;p
wesleyoldaker@reddit
Okay I looked it up. Nevermind, don't answer that.
kronik85@reddit
I use Microsoft's Power Toys for this. Does a good job with actual text screen shots
I'm sure there are other utilities for other platforms that do the same
breakslow@reddit
Microsoft's Power Toys makes MacOS feel like a toy. If there is something on there, it's likely a paid-for app from a 3rd party developer.
Iregularlogic@reddit
My guy, MacOS has brew. What are you talking about.
breakslow@reddit
These are the things I can think of off of the top of my head, but it's mind boggling to me how many QoL features are just... missing. I've been using it for 3 years at work and still prefer Windows. Brew is great but WSL is close enough for my uses.
Mac hardware is miles ahead of any Windows laptop I've owned though.
Iregularlogic@reddit
I prefer having the community build great applications that are free and not tied to a corporation, I don’t see why you think it’s a positive that Microsoft made it.
This company is not your friend.
Strus@reddit
Anything PowerToys can do is either built in macOS (like the mentioned "copying texts from images") or available as a free app.
horserino@reddit
Maybe the excel sheet screenshot is a bit extreme but did you know that Mac's Preview is capable of copying text on an image just as you'd select text from a text document?
It has made dealing with screenshots so much better for me lol
ProfessionalSock2993@reddit
Don't bother with the OCR it's not your job to compensate for their idiocy, tell them to send the data to you in the correct format or you can't move forward, they will learn if they have to, and if not then it's not your problem anymore
ashultz@reddit
For coworkers I tell them their request has to come in as text so I can use it, I'm generally helpful but if you won't help me help you you clearly do not want it enough.
For customers sadly you have to meet them at the (stupid) place that they are at.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Right, but sending a screenshot of informal communication? The client talking about having to send cat GIFs? That is a complete disrespect of privacy to that individual. I understand that technically it isn’t a big deal, but also email vs. chat etiquette is completely different.
SituationSoap@reddit
Nothing you do or say while on work communications or hardware is private. You should not expect it to be private, ever.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
yes, but that’s why the only people that can see all the chat logs are privileged users and legal teams
fueelin@reddit
It's not surprising you're being downvoted. You asked for people's opinion, and they gave it to you. Don't argue with them because they don't agree with you... You asked for their opinion!
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
? do you not understand the fundamental aspect that communication is a 2 way street. "don't argue with them just take it" is some of the worst communication advice you can tell to anyone. The right thing to say is "choose your battles wisely".
fueelin@reddit
...how are you choosing your battles wisely? Your OP is you telling the world that you didn't choose your battles wisely at work - you are bothered by something that shouldn't bother you. Everyone told you that and then you... Choose to make it into another battle instead of accepting the advice?
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
? At what part of the OP does it mention confronting this person? You should not give any communication advice just based on our interaction.
fueelin@reddit
Odd! My post didn't say anything about confronting the person either. You seem to have an issue interpreting things incorrectly. Specifically, you seem to add things that aren't there and then get bothered by them.
daguito81@reddit
Which in turn might explain why he's getting screenshotted in the face.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
You stated “you didn’t choose your battles wisely at work”
There is nothing about the OP about having a “battle”
It’s ok to be wrong, it might humble you
fueelin@reddit
You have wasted a ton of mental energy on this issue, starting with the OP. That is the battle you chose not to avoid.
Almost every single comment you have here is at -20 or worse. Have you admitted that you were wrong yet? Have you shown any humility? Nope, you just reject everyone's advice and continue to be belligerent.
You must be a nightmare to work with. Maybe your PM wouldn't have to do your job for you if you actually did it instead of arguing on reddit all day?
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Your entire comment is full assumptions, attack, and hatred with no basis behind your claims. You have a problem.
fueelin@reddit
Haha, hatred? That's outlandish. You attacked my communication advice before I attacked anything about you, but whatever...
Again. Consider that you were wrong. Follow your own advice. Apply some humility. You're doing everything you can to avoid being introspective and learning from your mistake.
Take the advice you asked for and received.
Canadianingermany@reddit
No. You still don't get it.
Don't write anything ABOUT someone if you don't want them to see it.
Pretty basic rule, most ppl learn in university of latest first year of work.
kronik85@reddit
Your internal communications never say anything about any client, department or project you wouldn't want revealed?
I'm not talking about gossip and shit talking.
Simple assessments that are naturally critical but wouldn't feel good to receive but need to be stated.
If my manager DMs me about an upcoming deadline, I could see myself shooting back
Y Department could feel quite called out, and there are more diplomatic ways to approach the issue than the above.
I don't have an issue bringing the above up with Y department, I would have an issue if someone just screen shot my message and emailed Y to step it up because they're blocking us.
It's a good rule, and one that I strive for, but not realistic to be 100% faithful to.
daguito81@reddit
In my case, I do have things I want to say and don't want them to be screenshotted somewhere else. That's where I go "let's have a quick call and I'll tell you about it" or "Let's go get some coffee" if we're both in the office. The other person most likely understands that what we're going to talk about is pretty sensitive and he shouldn't be spreading it around.
If I write it in an email or chat. I assume anyone in the company can see it.
Canadianingermany@reddit
I teach my team if it is too sensitive for the client to see, call me and let's discuss.
Canadianingermany@reddit
Why? I mean that is exactly what a good project manager or boss might so in that case.
PragmaticBoredom@reddit
Anything you write down and share with anyone else in the company is liable to be shared. (Your whole post is literally an example of this)
You should always write with the assumption that they will share it. Do not write in a way that you might be embarrassed about if they screenshotted it and shared it in a public channel, sent it to your CEO, or forwarded to anyone you talk about. All of these things can and do happen frequently.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
the issue is not my conversations with them, the issue is they send screenshots of others to me. I never say anything bad in any communication. However, when I see how the other screenshots come to me, it means I cannot share any real trust in what I send them.
PragmaticBoredom@reddit
Yes, that’s the point. If you write anything in Slack or an email, assume it’s going to be shared with everyone.
With this person you just happen to see it happening. You’re not always going to see it happening.
SituationSoap@reddit
And anyone you send the chats to. And anyone they choose to share it with.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
which means if someone shares chats that isn’t an admin or legal they should not be trusted
SituationSoap@reddit
Mate, you need to grow up. You are not gossiping around the lunch table in 10th grade any more. Yes, when you say something to someone else, they might share what you said to other people.
It is literally your PM's job to knock down obstacles to shipping projects. That means that they're going to take the things you say and communicate them to other people. They will often do so using the verbatim words you say instead of paraphrasing things.
You should assume that nothing that you say is private at work. Ever. Someone sharing something you said at work in an effort to get their own job done is not a violation of trust and if you feel betrayed by that, that's a you problem.
Canadianingermany@reddit
As a general rule, you should not expect privacy for a message to a colleague.
The real lesson here is for you, not the PM.
Don't write ANYTHING, you don't want the ppl you are talking about to see.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
i don’t say anything bad in any chat, not did i state i have felt like i’ve said anything bad in chat. i’m not comfortable with them sending me chats and want to confirm is this is me being extra or if other’s feel the same.
ohmnomnom@reddit
I think the biggest frustration here is that you cannot copy important IDs or names from a screenshot.
Private chats are a pain in the bum. Move everything to public channels of appropriate size, so that people can interact with, add people to, and remove themselves from conversations as needed.
I screenshot chats and move them to public channels to reinforce my desire for transparent planning and collaboration, and because copying and pasting messages requires a bunch of editing and contextual preamble.
daguito81@reddit
based on the other comments from OP, that is definitely not the case here.
I do get screenshots of IDs and prompty say "jesus fucking christ are you serious? copy and paste them as text, don't torture me"
But I'm 100% confident that that message is not private. Will I get into trouble for that? Not really. But I assume that message can be read by the president of the company
Canadianingermany@reddit
Why not?
rookie-mistake@reddit
they mean "my chats", I think they're referring to the screenshots
Canadianingermany@reddit
That what I understood as well.
My question is if OP isnt putting anything bad I. There, why should they care?
I think OP should mull over that question for a while.
Corona-walrus@reddit
Exactly. If everyone can accept this and be open about it, one might call it a culture of transparency. In some ways, being lazy or overly open can be negative, but in other ways, I can see how the PM might not want to be a middleman but rather a "pass through", sharing information openly. As you've said, the best way to approach is to craft your messages simply and in a friendly way, no spelling mistakes or anything like that, just a paragon of charisma and simplicity with nothing to hide.
ginamegi@reddit
I’m kinda impressed by the PM lol, your first example where they screenshotted you message and just immediately forwarded it to the people who needed to see it to get the communication going makes the PM sound like someone who is just trying to get stuff done asap.
Obviously this means that I’ll never have a casual “fun” conversation with that PM, it’s work only since there’s no telling who else will see your messages, and that’s their fault.
daguito81@reddit
Why would you assume you have any kind of privacy in conversations with your PM, or anyone work related. All your messages are being logged, they can audit any message you've ever written. Like you could have an auditor right now, combing through every conversation you've had. Or some lawyer because of some case or lawsuit.
Why would you ever assume any chat at a work system is private? that's just asking for pain
MassiveStallion@reddit
Why would you need to have a 'casual fun' conversation with a PM at work? "The Office" was a bad version of what happens at an office. Build your life outside the office and don't let it leak in.
Otherwise yeah you're gonna get Toby'd.
ZunoJ@reddit
If you don't manage to learn how to properly socialize at work you will never be truly successful
MassiveStallion@reddit
Having 'private conversations' that are going to tank you if someone screenshots it is literally the definition of not properly socializing.
ZunoJ@reddit
I have to agree
tonjohn@reddit
The American Office was a bad version of what happens?
So it’s almost a “best case” imo
MassiveStallion@reddit
Right, so you want your manager to hit you with a car, or fire guns in the office, got it.
tonjohn@reddit
Haha that’s fair! I kinda hand waved that off as clearly TV insanity and was focusing on the core dynamic but you are not wrong 😂
MassiveStallion@reddit
Lol yeah. Dude the corollary to the OP here wanting his conversations private is Michael sharing his relationship texts with Jan on his work computer, resulting in a deposition with HR and Toby where he reveals he dressed up for her like a Catholic schoolgirl.
That is what "I can't have a casual fun conversation with my PM because I'm afraid he'll screenshot it" means.
Just fucking talk about Battlestar Galactica, bears, beets, Star Wars, murder podcasts or scuba diving. DO NOT invite your coworkers out to a titty bar.
The question is if this guy is using Slack or Teams what the fuck is he saying that can't be repeated? And why is he doing it on the company chat? What kind of problems does he have that it's literally a burden to switch to PG-13 at work? I can only think of personalities like Michael or Dwight that have some kind of desperate need to treat work chat like it's a personal diary.
Empanatacion@reddit
That approach is going to hold you back professionally, besides suck out your soul for half your waking hours.
Now that I'm a grumpy old man, 2/3 of what I'm trying to figure out during a job interview is, "am I going to like working with these people."
MassiveStallion@reddit
Does it? You sound pretty miserable. I'm also old. I work in one of America's best places to work. I live in a condo on a tropical island with a swimming pool and an ocean view.
Do you think the CEO, VP Sales, VP marketing, Regional manager are their 'true selves' or are they putting on a mask for clients, customers or employees? Do you think the waitress that smiles at you is looking for a tip or is she genuinely flirting with you?
Everyone puts on a mask at work. That's a good thing. I don't wanna see my coworker's Trump leaking through and neither do you. Work is work. Don't gossip about your co-workers genitalia, show off QAnon links or pictures of girls suggestively eating bananas.
I was just like you and this guy, being precious about my identity and personality. Then I ran my own business and learned how other jobs work. Sales, Marketing, and most importantly Management are about putting on a persona like 'the boss', 'funny guy', 'tough talk guy' and not letting things like 'aren't Brenda's tits huge?' leak through.
MagnetoManectric@reddit
I mean, as much as 90% of my life is outside of the office, physically, 70 odd percent of my waking hours is spent there (virutally or otherwise). It does really help the day go quicker if you have a cordial relationship with the people you work with. It doesn't have to be super deep, but making friends in the office is both the human thing to do, and how you make connections and get promotions.
ginamegi@reddit
My manager and I joke around a bunch, lightens the mood and makes the 40 hours a week that I’m at work much less miserable. I’m not sure as humans that we’re meant to lock in and go full business robot mode for such a significant portion of our lives. That sounds like a sad way to live to me.
Flaxz@reddit
You should assume anything you say on a company system is not confidential. If you’re having conversation you don’t want there to be a possibility of anybody seeing, say it face-to-face.
zombie_girraffe@reddit
A long time ago a mentor told me that I should write everything at work as though I expected it to be read in court, and that advice has served me pretty well.
Main-Drag-4975@reddit
There’s a vast gulf between 1) recognizing that work DMs can never be truly private and 2) blithely forwarding others’ 1:1 comms without asking.
jek39@reddit
one of the reasons I like being in the office at least weekly
ginamegi@reddit
“Wow that all hands meeting was a huge waste of time, I didn’t pay attention to much of what was said”
Do you want me to contact the director of my departments administrative assistant to schedule a time next week for a 30 minute meeting so that I can tell this person who’s 5+ levels above me that I, a simple engineer, disagree with their management choices?
I’m not that invested in this company. They don’t give me equity so I’m going to just do my best work and chat with my coworkers.
false_tautology@reddit
The question is really how much context does a screenshot of a snippet of a conversation offer, and is it something that will actually get people looking into something?
I'd rather get an email with bullet points outlining some requirements, then a separate set of bullet points with specific questions that I need to answer.
I would probably give a short non-commital response to the PM's example message if I received it, assuming that a real follow up would be performed and this was just a feeler to see if I'm available.
kronik85@reddit
The lack of context is the real issue for me.
It's akin to being looped into someone elses "hello" (https://nohello.net/en/) style of communication.
The other participants, if they need actual context, now have the burden of going out and tracking me down for information. Which is obnoxious for the participants and myself (imo).
It definitely gets the ball rolling, but in what I find to be an obnoxious way.
I'd much rather my coworker ask when I can get that request made, and to loop them in on when it's made.
Arion_Miles@reddit
I think they don't know any better way of forwarding messages than taking a screenshot. If they knew Slack allows you to branch-off a new DM from an existing one and selectively add relevant messages to be visible in the new DM, they would. But they don't. All they probably know is screenshot because it's easier and they remember the shortcut for it.
Fluffy_Yesterday_468@reddit
It’s a work communication either way. I understand it feels a little odd but it really is no different from forwarding an email or the message itself
camelCaseCoffeeTable@reddit
This is exactly why the advice is to never say anything, anywhere, to anyone that could potentially get you in trouble at work.
Sharing conversations to me is fine. I don’t see it as a red flag at all. However, if it bothers you, I’d bring it up to him. It would be totally ok to ask him for your permission first before sharing private conversations.
However, at my workplace we routinely share private convos that are relevant to work with others, and try to nip the entire issue in the bus by having a culture where anything we discuss that we even have an inkling may be useful to others is done in a public channel so others can follow along or chime in with useful info if needed.
Garbage_Matt@reddit
a picture of a guid is worth a thousand words... you just shouldn't say those words in public
lunchpadmcfat@reddit
I think that is precisely the difference. If you have no way to link to it for others to see, it should not be made public. Screenshotting doesn’t count.
Whenever I’ve had to do something similar, I’ve asked the individual if it was ok for me to share our conversation and then I would copy/paste the text. Screenshotting has an icky vibe to it that I’m not altogether ok with.
SwillStroganoff@reddit
We’re you at least copied on the chats and emails where your words and your name was being copied ? I make it a general practice to include anyone in such communications. My reasoning is that they should have the opportunity to correct me if I’m not correct.
ClammyHandedFreak@reddit
You’re not crazy, you are just skewed in how privacy works at a job.
Lendari@reddit
If you don't want it shared don't put it in writing. There's a place in the world for a phone call still.
Also sharing customer feedback is a real grey area. Sure if the customer called out one specific person anonymising it the right thing to do. But insisting everything customers say 1:1 is somehow automatically confidential is wrong.
PragmaticBoredom@reddit
I’ve worked with several people like this.
Whether it’s reasonable or not, you now have to assume that everything you write to this person is public. Write every response as if the entire team, your boss, and everyone in the company will be reading it.
You should also start taking the initiative to move conversations to better places before the PM has a chance to forward them. If you can predict that your response is just going to be forwarded to another group, stop the 1:1 conversation with the PM and pull in the other group. This removes their power play of being the communication hub and saves everyone the trouble of having to read screenshots of relayed info.
fueelin@reddit
Seems kind of odd to describe normal facilitation as a "power play".
Azariah__Kyras@reddit
At performance review it would be described as an example on of leadership
Baconaise@reddit
It sounds like you're a junior.
It also sounds like you're misinterpreting what collaboration is.
If you said you had reached out and the PM wasn't seeing results on the ticket and pushed you all to collaborate in a DM to speed things along you are either failing to communicate your timeline on the ticket or not working fast enough.
I think the context you haven't shared is how much time you thought you had vs how long it was taking.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
it sounds like you’re making a whole lot of assumptions about a situation with 0 knowledge.
MassiveStallion@reddit
You're being very jumpy and accusatory. Perhaps the reason you're upset is because you were this aggressive and insulting at work, someone took a screenshot and you got in trouble.
Stop being an asshole. Everyone is recording.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
You’re putting blame onto me when the person I responded to says “It sounds like you’re a junior” and “You’re misinterpreting what collaboration is”. These are aggressive and accusatory things and when I respond with “It sounds like you’re making assumptions”, which is an equivalent to what the person communicated to me, you say I am aggressor.
See the issue?
Baconaise@reddit
I have hired a lot of people and the only ones who would take so personal a screenshot of a private chat to share context with a group and engage in a group chat about a blocker would be a junior who isn't familiar with working on a team who gets shot done.
The PM invited someone who was required to unblock you and wanted to facilitate a group conversation and identify further blockers you may not see.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
How do you know I was blocked?
How do you know if the PM is competent at their job other than an anecdote I shared?
Baconaise@reddit
You said you were blocked.
"I said I had to speak with an engineering lead and maybe a network specialist to understand [the problem]"
"The PM [accelerated the conversation] with the people I mentioned and asks them [for their insight]"
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Understanding the problem means you’re blocked? That is not what a blocker is.
daguito81@reddit
Then why hadn’t you done it already?
If you already knew what you needed to continue, why weren’t you already in a chat with those people and moving forward?
I mean, reading your comments around this thread. I think we’re getting a clearer picture of what’s happening. But you’re lashing out at people giving opinions after you asked for it. So you just wanted some validation that you’re not the problem.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
? Do you know when this had to be done? No, you do not, so quit making up information. Do you know the urgency, do you know the time lapse! No.
daguito81@reddit
No I don't, but I know a couple of things from your post:
1) PM obviously thought that this was urgent and delayed enough to follow up and ping you about why you hadn't closed it already.
2) You responded that it wasn't closed because you needed to talk to people (why hadn't you talked to people before? what was stopping you from talking to these people and close the ticket earlier?)
3) You didn't give any indication (at least from your post) that you were working on something else or something more urgent or important
4)PM proceeded to be extremely efficient about this and take immediate steps to give you the access to the people you need to close the ticket
5) PM was also efficient about providing context by sharing your conversation and avoid any kind of extra work for you to reexplain what's going on, what ticket are they talking about and why the were summoned. And avoid any kind of misinterpretation of twisting of your words
With the information you provided in your post. I would say that the PM is not at fault here. You might not like it, but it's an extremely common practice
Those are things that I get simply from your post.
Now things I can extrapolate to (but are obviously my opinions and can be wrong):
You are inexperienced in this manner of work. This doesn't mean Junior or you have little YoE. Maybe you've been in office forever and recently started doing remote work. Or something like that. Maybe you've been PM facing for not that long and before you had team leads that abstracted you from this work. Or it could be simply you're new to the industry. I don't know. However that up until this point you've never seen this happen and you think "OMG T NEED TO GO TO REDDIT WITH THIS!! THIS IS TOTALLY A RED FLAG" when this is extremely common in the industry, it's a bit strange.
You just wanted validation that you are not at fault and the PM is wrong. Again, speculation, but you came here asking for opinions, and then strangely enough when opinions don't side with you, you get pretty combative and defensive. Like the last message where you say "Stop making stuff up" when from your own post, this was urgent enough for the PM, yet you say that we don't know how urgent it was. This thread is not about how optimized or good your work environmetn is. It was about the PM being a red flag and obviously from YOUR post, to him it was urgent enough that required pinging you and settting up that conversation. So I don't need to know how urgent it is for you because you didn't ask for opinions about you, but the PM. And you gave that information indirectly. But again, moot point because I think you just want some validation and someone to hug you and say "no no you're doing fine, it's the PM that's a waste of money".
Not even getting into the example of the PM screenshotting the client conversation because why on earth would you care about that. I get screenshots of internal clients constantly because they were not too clear and they prefer me getting the raw message and see if I know what they're talking about. That one is just a weird one to complain about.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Here is what happened when the PM set up the group chat.
The guy I needed to speak with is a Chief architect, he has no clue who the PM is and what goes on in our tickets. He was immediately confused as to what had to be done.
The network engineer also had the same response as the chief engineer. Both of them were confused about the context because the PM was not tactical at all in their approach.
The PM never asked me when I was planning to communicate these people 1:1 prior to reaching out.
The PM also had no clue what details of the issue were, the ticket was a generic description and I knew what the PM was tracking as I had explained the issue to the PM. The ticket was written in the context of the system and its end user PoV (it said, essentially, certain button was not working).
The reason why the button was not working was due to a Palo alto configuration that was causing failed cert validation to pull in images for the kubernetes based load balancer.
But the ticket didn’t say any of that, so when the PM sent a screenshot with no context it didn’t help.
You said the PM thought this was urgent and delayed. You said I hadn’t given any indication that I was working on the issue. You then have 2 more points re-using the word efficient for what the PM did. You said the PM “gave me access to the people” (wait I don’t have access to these people?)
You don’t know the urgency of the ticket.
daguito81@reddit
I very specifically said "based on the information you provided" which didnt actually contain any of the information in your last comment. You asked for an opinion. We formed ours based on the information YOU provided (it is not my job to be a telepath).
Your OP states "PM asked me about a ticket, i said I need to talk to 2 people to proceed, PM then made a group and pasted a screenshot of my chat OMG RED FLAG!"
EVEN taking into considerration that story you just conveniently provided to help your case out. The only thing I'm seeing is "You are shit at communicating" at best.
I said that based on the actions of the PM as provided by you. It was urgent enough for him (which you also seem to be really bad at misinterpreting what people say, another point about shit communication) to warrant a follow up and a push. I don't know how urgent it is for you (nor do I care, becasue your question is about the PMs behaviour). But if he went and did a follow up and then made the group to get things moving it was definitely not in the "whatever whenever" category of problems. Else why would he have bothered with this?
"PM never asked me when I was planning to communicate..." that sounds like you didn't provide that info either. So in his mind it would be "Ok, they need to talk to these 2 people but somehow that hasn't happened. What can I do about it?" but that's a bad thing according to you now?
Now you go about the ticket. You knew there was more to it, yet you didn't update any information to communicate all these complexities to the PM. Why would you need the Chief Architect for a Palo Alto config problem is beyond me, but hey, you do you. Maybe you ask him as well whenever you get some CORS errors as well. Idk.
And lastly I did talk about the second point in my last paragraph. Which tells me that you didn't even read the entire thing. Im going to assume you read until you were angry enough and then went straight to the reply. The second scenario is a nothingburger of epic proportions.
Now I'm going to go into "what I think territory". Might be wrong, might not be. But that would be my conclusion based on what you've said without even hearing the PM's side of the story. Like if your story was brought to me as management and needed to derive a conclusion about it.
I think you were doing jack shit about a ticket you were assigned. Don't care why or how. PM is doing his rounds seeing tickets opened that have been open for X time and yours jumped out. Asked you about it, you made some BS on the spot about how you're tooootally on top of it but you still need to talk to people (oldest trick in the book). Which would beg the question, why hadn't you talked to them already? Why do you need to be "tactical" about calling an architect and a network guy to fix a client facing issue? The oooonly reason I could think about is either you haven't been able to get an audience (my comment about not having these people for access) but you yourself said "wait I don’t have access to these people?" so that can't be it right? So why is the ticket still open? You also said that the ticket was missing a lot of information that was critical for understanding. Now I don't know how your org works, but where I've worked, the assigned engineer/developer/architect is responsible for updating the ticket as close to real time as possible so that the rest of the org can see what's going on with that. Why did you have all this information about the problem but didn't update the ticket? Why didn't you tell the PM when you were planning on talking with the people? Let's not forget that that wasn't even your original grievance, but that he copied your conversacion and pasted it on anocher chat (extremely common practice everywhere). But we're already in the hole so might as well.
So the only things I could conlucde would be
1) You were doing jack shit and got surprised by the PM, tried to BS your way around it and PM decided to materialize the meeting to either move this issue forward or for you to not have the excuse "I'm trying to get ahold of X to continue" (that's called a blocker btw as you stated in a different comment "Who said I was blocked??" ) 2) You were working on it, did some research on the problem. Failed to update the ticket for X time. PM came to ask about it. And if your comments in this thread are any indication, you got pretty defensive about it (I don't have the PM's side to compare, but I have a shitload of comments by you here bitching at people for their opinions when you asked for them). So you probably didn't even communicate the issue properly with the PM probably leaving out pretty important things (like you did in this thread). So the PM got the wrong picture and decided to try and push it forward as he could.
Either way, shit at communicating. Either your excuse should've been better, or you should've provided better info.
And on top of all this, your original question. Yes, you are massively overreacting about someone using a screenshot of yours in a chat.
Now I expect you to come and say how I don't have the information, I'm making stuff up, Why am I writing this if I don't know. Wherea you should definitely use that energy to do some introspection. Or not. I really don't care. I don't have a problem with someone using my chats as screenshots, I know its common. You could be fired for all I care. If you find it super unethical, quit, get a different job, make sure you specify in the interview that that is a red line for you and find your dream job!
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
you wrote an analysis on incomplete information and you call me a bad communicator. I am not reading your further analysis because you would rather talk than ask clarifying questions and you seem keen to put blame on me
daguito81@reddit
Called it. You do you! You seem to have it all pretty well handled!
BirdCass14@reddit
They know the PM is competent at their job because game recognizes game. I genuinely learned so much from their response, I read it twice and saved a screenshot.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Why don’t you use your brain to determine if the PM is competent based on the OP
BirdCass14@reddit
Hmm, Do you imagine I read through the comments, and replied to one, without first reading your original post?
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Is there any universe where you know more about the situation than me?
borktron@reddit
Those are not aggressive or accusatory.
You came here to get people's take. Baconaise read your stuff, and told you how how it sounded to them. Now, maybe they're missing some important context. But if that context isn't in the OP, that's on you.
FWIW, it sounds that way to me, too. And your defensiveness about some constructive (if blunt) criticism only reinforces that impression.
As I suggested elsewhere, if this were all in email (with the PM emailing you, you reply, then reply and CC in the people you mentioned in your reply) would you feel the same way you feel about what your PM did? If you would feel the same way, then you definitely need to recalibrate. If you feel this is different from that, you should try to articulate why.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
No Baconaise did not offer constructive criticism. Constructive criticism does not involve making general statements off anecdotes about someone’s ability to collaborate.
The fact that you fail to recognize that reality and also fail to recognize communication is a two way street and make generalizations around nuanced statements tells me you’re not qualified to give advice here.
Here’s a simple one, is there any harm in asking a question to probe for more knowledge instead of making blind and incorrect assumptions about a person?
I see a regular pattern of poor critical thinking from people who would rather jump to conclusions and insult me as the OP despite the fact that I am the only person that knows all the information of the situation! Constructive discussion begins with asking probing questions and not making flat generalizations like “you must be junior” (when I have 9 YoE but also name a junior person that updates architecture diagrams).
If the PM emailed me a screenshot of private chats they made I would be equally concerned. There is a big difference in etiquette and communication style between DMs and email. Email is the equivalent to writing and sending a letter. It requires a full thought to be formed prior to hitting send. Chat is informal, you get quick feedback because it is engaging. If you make a mistake it’s easy to get called out and get feedback for it.
Now when the PM chose to screenshot a ticket and open a chat, first of all they did this with 0 context. The ticket doesn’t explain what needs to be discussed. When the PM set-up the chat it caused more confusion as both engineers who had a working relationship with me and had 0 relationship with the PM were wondering what was going on. It created confusion, it also showed the PM had a lack of trust in me to do the work (which btw, I had never given them any reason to believe me of being incapable).
Anyways, this is just the beginning of why the communication is poor, not just in the situations I described, but in our industry as a whole. The art of asking questions has left the room for insecure go-getters that would rather pretend they know what they are doing to look good than actually get the job done well.
The question you asked has hopefully led to me providing you with more detail, you are one of the few to ask an effective question (aka demonstrate some competency around communication and empathy). Baconaise jumping to conclusions does not.
MassiveStallion@reddit
Dude, you are just crazy town. Read some books, like outside of coding. Try sales, management, HR. Your ideas about online communication are just really insular and not reflective of how people with money think, or will treat you at all.
The CEO has access to everything you type on that server and no manager will hesitate dropping your entire message history to a client if it means a promotion or a big sale.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
? what the hell does the CEO of a company (what kind of CEO looks at chat logs) have to do with ANYTHING I just said? You should follow your own advice and read a few books so you can think before you communicate.
Oh btw, I worked for a start-up in SF where the CEO was removed access from the servers as a part of an initiative from the team I worked. But also I promise you Jamie Dimon has NO CLUE how to pull anything from any server chat log and you don’t need to read any book to make that educated guess.
Your entire communication style speaks volumes of an existence that was bent to follow the ideas of others rather than coming up with anything on your own.
MassiveStallion@reddit
Lol, your insults might have some steam if this was r/artists but no one gives a rats ass about originality here. Some reinventing the wheel junior energy if there was any.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Ah yes, junior energy, you’re the one who suggested the CEO would look at chat logs
Strus@reddit
These were not aggressive at all.
k37r@reddit
You asked for feedback and you received it.
Lashing out at the person who gave it to you doesn't reflect well on you, and kinda reinforces some of the points made in this feedback.
femio@reddit
I always find it weird that people in this sub will subtly insult people’s intelligence then claim the person is being belligerent when they understandably don’t take it lightly.
fueelin@reddit
Yeah, this js a favorite of mine too. It reminds me of dumb banter on sports subreddits. Where someone will insult your favorite team/player a bunch, you respond with some banter back, and then they sad "why are fans of x always so insecure?".
Like... I'm sorry that I reacted as though you insulted me after you insulted me? That doesn't make me insecure...
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
it’s bad feedback, and framing assumptions is the clear indicator of it.
Bac0nnaise@reddit
Nice username!
Ihodael@reddit
One of the things that I often preach to the juniors I work with is that you don't write anything that you are not comfortable seeing in the front page of the newspaper. That applies professionally AND personally.
This is also an ethical advise: don't do anything that you are not comfortable seeing in the front page of the newspaper in all detail.
I also try to preach that you should be precise in what you write (better said than done, of course).
So I would have no issues with your PM.
Ligmatologist@reddit
yeah I think you're overreacting
abluecolor@reddit
Yep. What they're describing is effective communication.
UnknownEssence@reddit
I agree.
Really if this is a professional conversation about professional matters, then quoting your words exactly (in this case via a screenshot) is better than playing a game of telephone where details are lost and miscommunications happen.
kingNothing42@reddit
Quite normal.
Schedule_Left@reddit
Man reading OPs comments and replies. I think they're the problem. OP seems to have an issue misinterpreting words. That must be why the PM screenshots their replies.
fueelin@reddit
Agreed. It's so annoying when someone asks for opinions on reddit, the opinions consistently disagree with them, and they... Argue with people?
Like you asked for our opinions. We gave them. That's pretty much where the interaction should end.
MassiveStallion@reddit
The OP is a menace just looking for people to agree with him lol. If this is how he behaves at work, no wonder he wants those chats kept private.
schmidtssss@reddit
What the fuck are you complaining about? Your words used to get across what you said? What is the issue?
krysjez@reddit
That said, we say different things to different audiences. You wouldn’t tell your intern the same type of thing you would tell your CEO.
That to me is the real problem here - OP is feeling a loss of control over their image perhaps.
daguito81@reddit
But he wasn't talking to his intern. He was talking to his PM, which is extremely common that he's going to "Pass on the message" So the original post is the same "WTF is he complaining about?" that a PM didn't decide to rewrite his message? omit details? paraphrase and confuse people?.
You're chatting with someone, who's main job is to "pass the message" around , how is that anything like "talking to your intern" ?
Yes there are audiences, you should also assume everything you type can be seen by everyone because you never know
CherimoyaChump@reddit
In personal terms, it's like confiding in a friend about something personal and later finding out they told some friend of a friend about it. It's not necessarily that you wouldn't have told the friend of a friend about that topic. But it should be your decision generally.
Obviously people handle communications at work differently than in personal situations, but I think at least some of that discretion should apply in work situations too.
krysjez@reddit
I agree. I told OP in my top level reply that I’ve had situations where a coworker added someone to an email/chat about work topics where I wasn’t ready for the information to be shared externally in that way - it doesn’t feel good, but at the same time you can’t really complain TOO much. It comes down to discretion and that bar is different for everybody.
washtubs@reddit
It also reads to me as the PM doesn't understand things people are saying to them and delegates that responsibility as well. Like what's the point of talking to you if it's in one ear out the other and into some other person's ears.
IndependentMonth1337@reddit
Anything you say can be used against you. I guess OP just learned to be careful about what he says in private chats because you never know if they will be shared or to whom.
bearbearhughug@reddit
At work mostly everything is collaboration not private. There are times where it is obvious private convo but if it’s obvious work chat I wouldn’t think twice if my screenshot or quote showed up in a ticket filing or if it got sent to someone else
daguito81@reddit
And "obvious private convo" shouldn't be done through chat or email as that can be easily filtered. Unless shady shit is happening and you want receipts for CYA
PorblemOccifer@reddit
I’ve seen too many cases at my job of a non-tech manager absolutely bungling the forwarding of information to other relevant parties because they can’t explain things adequately or they’ve misunderstood the topic. If they’re using their discretion and not sending your screenshots where you complain about Sandra from accounting, I think it’s the better way to go.
qqqqqx@reddit
Your pm shared with you a screenshot of a slack conversation he had with a client of yours? That is not in any way a "red flag", he's just showing you exactly what the client asked for in their own words. My previous company would do stuff like that all the time to minimize miscommunication. Maybe you have some personal creedo about a direct message being a sacred and private thing, but you'll need to let go of that in the professional world (and also act in a manner as though any direct message could be shared or seen by other members of the company, which it almost always can be, and always can be shared by the recepient).
It sounds like you have a non-technical PM who is trying to get stuff done. So instead of trying to interpret something technical which they might not fully understand, they're just passing messages on directly via screenshot. A good PM is proactive about communication and blockers. If he needs to get your ticket closed out and you say you need to talk to someone else about some aspect of it, it's literally his job to make that conversation happen.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
He doesn’t need to get the ticket closed out. The tickets are a formality that aren’t used to report progress. They’re internal only.
NobleNobbler@reddit
The CEO's son did this to me recently, for the first time-- I politely asked him to not do that again. Nip these things at the bud. It isn't always malicious, but it's certainly tone deaf
SiegeAe@reddit
Its definitely a sign you shouldnt trust them with any unprofessional interactions regardless of context, which is a better default at work anyway even though its a drag, but yeah the solution is just switch to professional assume all talk with them is public (even face to face) and you're good
BonnetSlurps@reddit
Well, this is part of what PMs do, basically sending information from one place to the other and holding people accountable. I honestly prefer a more trusting environment, but many PMs fall back on this behavior even when things are going fine.
The screenshots part is complicated. Sending internal company communication is not unlike forwarding an email, so start treating Slack/etc as if it were email.
If your worry is that people will misinterpret what you say to the PM, try to be as direct and professional as possible. Examples:
Sending screenshots of other people's emails sounds a bit more tricky to navigate, but I personally wouldn't think too much about it, since it's the equivalent of forwarding an email. If there's any inappropriate content or some security risk, deal with it as if it were an email.
About not noticing things and asking for the same task twice: well, people are not perfect, but PMs are less so ;)
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
they don’t send screenshots of emails, they only send screenshots of chats.
Schedule_Left@reddit
I mean emails can be forwarded so that's already just like screnshotting.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
email and chat etiquette are not the same
daguito81@reddit
Says who ?
Anything you write in a work environment or system can be used and there is no expectation of privacy in your work computer chat and emails. So why are you applying different etiquette ?
Personally I see a pretty proactive PM that’s trying to solve the problem and trying to unblock things
Like your example is literally “I need to talk with these 2 people “ Next thing is a chat with those people and the context there without you having to reexplain anything and a step forwards basically.
So he’s efficient basically.
The solution is simple, if you know this person does this and you do believe that etiquette is different then talk to him like it’s an email and knowing that that convo will be screenshotted and pasted
ZunoJ@reddit
Do you have hard evidence for this? This is how you see it, they seem to see it another way. If you don't have legal or company rules this is ok. Just be professional and there are zero problems
Lumethys@reddit
So? At the end of the day it is information, about work, owned by the company, made by you on company ground, on company time, under company-issued accounts.
"Etiquette" arguably is just syntactic sugar. If you said "I did task 1234", whether you write it in an email, slack, github comment, Jira, or any other things, it doesnt matter, it is still information owned by your company and as a manager he can share it however he wishes.
BonnetSlurps@reddit
Gotcha. Well, same situation then as above. It is an indeed a red flag, but once again nothing that crosses a line.
This person is not pleasant to work with, but you gotta tread carefully and pick your battles, but this is not a battle worth fighting at all, IMO.
ReservoirBaws@reddit
I personally don’t mind it, it sounds like instead of paraphrasing what other people say, he just screenshots it. I’m unlikely to send an IM to someone at the job that I’d be uncomfortable with others seeing - with the exception of complaining about difficult consulting clients with others who are staffed on the same project but there’s a mutual understanding there. For someone that I just have a business relationship with, I wouldn’t expect privacy in those conversations.
BananafestDestiny@reddit
I have a PM that frequently copies my detailed, long form messages and runs them through ChagGPT to summarize them before sharing with other people and clients. It’s so frustrating to me because so many important details are lost, I wonder why I bother writing it at all. I would rather they just screenshot what I write.
This is a good policy. I religiously follow this rule of thumb:
naan_tadow@reddit
I wonder if the PM doesn't understand the content of the messages 🤭
teslas_love_pigeon@reddit
Hopefully you aren't sending them something important and very detailed. ChatGPT doesn't actually summarize, it just strips away content.
Can lead to some very bad consequences if you're using it for large amounts of text.
darkkite@reddit
what's the difference?
context size should be considered but you can't summarize without reducing detail
EMCoupling@reddit
This would make me so angry because I'm the type of person to spend a lot of time carefully crafting a message for precise meaning and tone.
BananafestDestiny@reddit
This is exactly it. I am an effective technical writer. I spend most of my time these days doing technical writing and I have a lot of experience working directly with clients, so I know how to speak their language and write in a way that maximizes mutual understanding. And I'm allergic to excessively verbose writing; I carefully pare it down to exactly what needs to be communicated and nothing more.
So to have this PM acting as a proxy between me and clients and using AI to strip out all of the important and carefully-crafted details into a bulleted "summary" – just for the sake of making it shorter – drives me crazy.
NUTTA_BUSTAH@reddit
Fight fire with fire? Run your response through GPT and weave the important details in, maybe it's going to be a better end result, who knows.
Anyways, that is so annoying.
muuchthrows@reddit
There's a difference between total privacy and something you say potentially being pasted in a conversation with a client or your bosses's boss though.
Communication is about adapting your language depending on your audience, and if you believe your audience is one specific person, but it turns out it's a bunch of people whom you may not even know, then that is a recipe for damaging relationships or being misunderstood.
I might use a more direct language when I chat with people I know well since it's much more efficient, which when pasted into a conversation containing people who have no idea of my level of relationship with that person will assume I'm an asshole, which will negatively impact future any collaboration.
3rdtryatremembering@reddit
I agree with many of the comments here that there is no privacy concern. It’s work, it’s not private.
But I personally think it’s signs of someone who is not a good PM. Their entire job is to have enough of an understanding of what is going on that they can express the use case to the developers better than the client can.
If you just want developers reading the customer requests and going from there, That can be done much cheaper with a chat bot lol.
bwmat@reddit
I've never worked with a PM who I'd want to have as a filter between me and actual customer requirements...
sqquima@reddit
kingNothing42@reddit
I agree. None of these conversations are about private things. They’re business convos that (IMO) should probably take place in public channels anyway. Client feedback is perfectly normal to share as well.
llanginger@reddit
I’m honestly staggered by the number of responses saying this is fine, and I think a lot of them are focused on the wrong thing here.
There’s no presumption of privacy with work communication, so it’s fair to say that this isn’t a breach of that. The problem illustrated in the first example is either;
1: A lack of trust that you will do what you say (unlikely given that this seems to be a pattern) 2: A belief that they need to personally unblock every issue. 3: some other equally bad option.
These actions will AT BEST not reflect well on your team and at worst create an objectively damaging reputation (one that may well impact everyone except for the PM).
In your shoes I would try to put together as solid a pitch as I could about how their actions were not only unnecessary but in fact led to a slow down (or some other term that will hook into their kpis) and ask that they trust their team to handle their tasks.
And if that went poorly I’d consider options for no longer working in close proximity with them.
Acceptable_Maybe7490@reddit
I'm surprised at the number of people saying it's fine as well. Aside from what you summed up, I find it to be a touch rude when it happens to me. If you intend to use my communication for an audience other than what I intended it for then I'd appreciate a heads up. We're all busy and don't have the time to perfectly craft messages that all of a sudden show up in an audience of people we don't know or in front of random superiors. My helpfulness to people who do that shuts down pretty quickly.
rayfrankenstein@reddit
Screenshot some of the PM’s conversations and send them to people and see what kind of response you get from the PM.
sawser@reddit
Every communication sent over your work systems should be treated like Obama will read them aloud to your parents on Fox News during the Superbowl.
teoska91@reddit
It depends on the context but most of the time it's a red flag for me as well. So you're not overreacting at all. Conversations on MS Teams, Slack etc and emails must be kept private.
We have a marketing and communication specialist in the team and she did commit not exactly the same but a somewhat similar crime: taking screenshots of some meetings we turned on our cameras and sharing them on LinkedIn without permission. I had to "politely" warn her at the end and since then I've been in bad odour with her.
Wayfarer285@reddit
Overreacting. I do this sometimes as well if a teammate is not sure about something so I ask manager, screenshot, send to teammate. Youre on a work chat that is 100% monitored by your company, nothing is private.
Xaxathylox@reddit
I think you have a false sense of privacy with regard to your private messages. You're flustered because he deliberately shared the images with other people, but imagine a slightly different circumstance where he was sharing his screen and your chat with him happened to be in the background... or if he was having a meeting with someone while sharing his screen, and the little chat bubble comes up in the lower right showing to everyone on the meeting your correspondence.
In such cases, it might not be deliberate, but you should have no expectation of privacy.
full disclosure: I openly show screenshots of my coworker's messages to me when I think they are blowing smoke up my ass... so I may be biased.
All that having been said, your example of telling him that you needed to follow up with some others, and then him immediately starting up a chat with those individuals, would make me question why I'm even here if he's going to do my job for me? Maybe I should just delegate these interactions to him in their entirety, because he enjoys being a middle-man?
BitzLeon@reddit
No, that'd be very normal.
All conversations should be assumed to be publicly available to everyone in the company. Of course that's not always the case, but it should be treated as such.
You're not having private conversations on your company's platform.
iamnowhere92@reddit
I (and other coworkers) are actually advised to do so because (surprise surprise) some coworkers gaslight and we all hate them
cerealShill@reddit
Anything communicated on company comms bongs to the company, behave accordingly
Putrid_Library6619@reddit
For this very reason, I assume anything I say is recorded or shared. Respond accordingly. It's still weird, though
WorksForMe@reddit
This is not good for users who use screen readers
prof_cli_tool@reddit
I’ve had people do this at work. I think it’s generally not problematic when you’re only discussing work-related things anyway and they’re just trying to convey that information. But I also understand being uncomfortable with it. I do always feel a little taken aback by it. Like I may have typed that differently if I knew I was sending it to the whole channel. But oh well. I don’t think there’s any malice and it’s never a big deal. Just triggers my social anxiety lol
zuilli@reddit
Same here, I adjust my tone and lingo depending on who I'm talking to.
Junior/intern same age or younger than me? A lot more casual tone and some work-friendly slurs.
Client/manager 10 years older than me? Strict formal tone and 0 slurs unless I know for a fact they're chill.
I never say anything improper for work but I would like to no be seem as too informal by the older guys because someone shared a screenshot of my chat with someone I know won't mind.
Joseph___O@reddit
Yeah for me it just made every message I send formal and not casual like I do with other coworkers
boastfuldred4@reddit
Don't write anything at work that can be used against you if that's what you are concerned about. Your company already has access to all the conversations so doesn't matter if someone is sharing private conversations (because they aren't actually private).
30thnight@reddit
Use the group/team channel for all communication going forward.
Regalme@reddit
You’re in a job environment. Your messages aren’t private to begin with. Expect every word you write to be available for scrutiny
Brought2UByAdderall@reddit
I think it's more odd than concerning. Slow typist? Or maybe they've had trouble in the past when they misquoted somebody. Just don't overshare in chats with this person, I guess. Probably a good idea in general regardless. Otherwise looks like they're doing their best to remove obstacles to things getting done which is behavior I appreciate in a PM. Also, maybe they don't know how to get a partial screen screenshot.
Demostho@reddit
Nah, you’re not overreacting—this is definitely a red flag. Sharing screenshots without context or permission shows a lack of trust and respect for your communication. It can make people hesitant to be open, which hurts team dynamics. Sounds like the PM is more reactive than proactive, skipping basic checks before escalating things. If it’s bothering you this much, a direct chat with them might help, or loop in a manager if it keeps up. But yeah, it’s not just you—I’d find it sketchy too.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
I am not comfortable having a direct chat with them at all because obviously their intent is to use chats to share things unsolicited and I have no clue what they would plan to do with any communication.
Sir_Edmund_Bumblebee@reddit
Why direct chat to begin with? Why aren't these things just in public chat channels? Almost all chat is better off in the open. Things like status reports or client feedback should just be in the appropriate team channel where whoever needs to see it can see it. It avoids this whole game of telephone.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
I agree, I generally do this but the culture of the company I work for doesn’t seem used to it.
Sir_Edmund_Bumblebee@reddit
Seems like this PM is helping to make for a better culture then, so what's the problem?
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Sending a screenshot of a chat to another person in a direct DM is the opposite of what you said.
Sir_Edmund_Bumblebee@reddit
How is it the opposite of what I said? The information you're talking about should be public, it's not private information. It being private is a waste of everyone's time. If everyone uses DMs then that seems like the way of making the best out of a bad situation.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
If the PM was doing what you suggested the PM would set-up a large channel and all communication would be there.
Sir_Edmund_Bumblebee@reddit
I'm confused, you said yourself that you would do it that way, but don't because that's not how it's done, but you want them to do it that way?
Them having to do this is them dealing with a broken process. If you want to fix the process then go for it, but them sharing information that needs to be shared is not the problem.
Demostho@reddit
Look, avoiding direct communication might not help you in the long run. It’s better to address the issue head-on, but keep things professional. If you think they might twist your words, make sure to document everything or include a manager. But just shutting down communication isn’t the best play—it can create more friction and misunderstandings. Focus on controlling the narrative, not avoiding it.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
Would you recommend talking to HR and then approaching the PM?
GandolfMagicFruits@reddit
Jesus you sound exhausting. Fucking relax just a bit.
potatersobrien@reddit
Do not go to HR. They aren’t there to help you. They exist to prevent lawsuits filed by employees against the company. I’ve seen too many cases where someone went to HR about a conflict and it made things much worse.
BonnetSlurps@reddit
I would personally avoid bringing this to HR.
HR is not your friend and can make things even worse.
A PM could just use the argument that this is internal communication done during business hours in a company system. Which is true.
This is definitely shitty behavior, but not unprofessional enough to have crossed the line where you go to HR.
IMO, of course.
Darkmayday@reddit
Jesus you said you needed to speak with people for more info, they started a group chat with said people. And you want to go to HR over this? Lmao
SituationSoap@reddit
HR isn't going to do anything here, the PM isn't breaking any laws.
You simply need to step up and be an adult and have a slightly awkward conversation. I promise that you will be OK afterwards.
intertubeluber@reddit
Is it possible he's not happy with your turnaround time? He may be mad he has to ask to start with. I'm reading between the lines here, so that may not be accurate.
More generally and related to your response here, pick the right form of communication. Don't chat your feedback to him. Have a face to face, video, or audio call, in that order.
p0st_master@reddit
Anything I say to a coworker and especially a client I consider public. I’ve had jobs where people go through my notes because I’m gone and they need to fix something. If my personal notes at work are not private I can’t expect conversations to be either. Anything on the work phone I assume my boss could/ would be reading.
Keep private stuff at home. If I’m talking to family I say talk to me after work/ I don’t give my work phone to family or friends.
Herrowgayboi@reddit
You're being sensitive.
This is no different from someone copy/pasting what someone said or rewording it in an email/message
This person just has a different working style and it's natural for them to just provide a screenshot. On top of that, nothing gets lost in translation because PM didn't need to try to comprehend and reword it based on what x person wrote.
borktron@reddit
This just sounds like a PM trying to get everyone together to address an issue they feel is urgent. They used a screenshot to provide context about what and why.
How is this different than pulling people into an email thread that started out 1:1? People have done that forever and nobody thinks anything of it.
How is that different than if the client had sent an email expressing their frustration, and the PM forwarded it to you for potential action?
Based on what you've written, it sounds like you're overreacting. This all sounds like the PM is just adapting totally normal behavior from the era of email being king to the new chat-based age.
mothzilla@reddit
Maybe a character quirk rather than anything else. But I'd assume that any conversation was going to be screenshotted (screenshat?). Assume no ill intent until proven otherwise.
bzd_b@reddit
Don’t say anything until you’re ready to respond, knowing it’ll be shared because why wouldn’t it be to move business along? Simple as. It’s not an off hours text, and don’t write like it’s an off hours text.
dystopiadattopia@reddit
Technically I guess there's no expectation of privacy on a workplace messaging platform, but it's still not cool. PM should be able to use their own words.
The only times I see screenshots of conversations is when there's some sort of confusion over an issue, and someone grabs a screenshot of the relevant chat to clear things up.
double_en10dre@reddit
Did you ever play the “telephone” game as a kid? That’s what happens if everyone is forced to try and rehash/summarize other people. AND it takes extra time.
I really do not understand why people are getting all bent out of shape by this. It’s work. Literally all you need to do is not badmouth people and it will be fine.
dystopiadattopia@reddit
You're right of course. But proactively sending out chat screenshots feels a little "gotcha."
double_en10dre@reddit
I think it feels very different from the perspective of the PM. I’ve been in that role a few times, and screenshots are just an efficient and transparent way to communicate. You’re sending messages all day and are trying to keep people in sync
And it’s never meant as a “gotcha”. At worst, it’s a subtle way of saying “this is useful information, you should be sharing it with the group/channel” :p
UMANTHEGOD@reddit
Screenshots and/or copying your DM's directly and then using that in public forums or with customers is a huge red flag.
They should always ask, but they should also always preferably translate what you wrote into their own words.
engineered_academic@reddit
My one concern with screenshots is it could leave out valuable context and give the wrong impression.
fueelin@reddit
But a PM rehashing information they don't understand fully can do that AND worse.
RegrettableBiscuit@reddit
IMO this is pretty normal. I've seen this everywhere I've worked, it's an easy way to let people know of what was discussed, so people do it. You're in a professional setting, don't say anything you don't want a coworker or client to see.
GoTheFuckToBed@reddit
We also have screenshoters in the company. It went away after I started pushing for all communication and updates in the tickets. Tickets can be linked. Less cross-channel communication, less screenshots.
Additionally people screenshoted customer personal data, so we shot that down, and now people think more before sharing screenshots.
fueelin@reddit
Yikes, sharing cusomter's personal data in screenshot is a waaay bigger issue than what OP is talking about!
beastkara@reddit
Work chats = not private. Never expect them to be
Space-Robot@reddit
When you're acting as a middleman between specialized people doing specialized things I imagine you eventually learn not to attempt to summarize anything in your own words. You can lose a lot in translation if you attempt to play telephone and a screenshot will both convey one parties exact phrasing and provide instant context to why you're reaching out.
That said... You gotta just be mindful of what parts of the convo you include in your screencap
haterade0204@reddit
Take a screenshot of their screenshot and send it back to the PM. Give them a taste of their own medicine or you can stop overreacting 🤷
ivoryavoidance@reddit
Build a tool with ocr to redact and pii and cat emojis. LLM started with cat emojis, you end it. 🎺🎺
washtubs@reddit
I kinda know what you're saying. But I don't think it's so much a privacy thing as a laziness thing. Your intended audience in a DM is one person. When that person you're talking to screenshots and blasts it out to a wider audience, it's frustrating because you want to rephrase stuff simply to account for a different audience.
You can try communicating that to them: that you prefer to have a heads up before they blast off. Just don't imply that they are doing anything bad because none of the examples you gave strike me as that.
Joseph___O@reddit
It is a little annoying but I quickly learned not to make jokes or share too much information with this individual because I will get quoted word for word
NUTTA_BUSTAH@reddit
Now is a good time for you to learn that all work correspondence should be assumed public/shared by default. The only trail-less privacy you will ever truly get is face-to-face in a private setting, not even through video or voice calls.
Apprehensive-Type874@reddit
You’re writing into a work chat you should assume it’s 100% public knowledge.
Trawling_@reddit
Nothing inherently wrong. But fast and loose like someone else said.
He just needs to be better at cropping out unneeded details. Maybe it’s feedback you can share with them
Confident_Answer_524@reddit
I have dealt with a scrum master like this in the past. They had no shame copying and pasting a screenshot of somebody complaining to them about so and so blocking them, along with a lazy “can you unblock them?” sent to the blocker. Eventually this scrum master was eliminated as they were deemed unnecessary
No-Rush-Hour-2422@reddit
Never say anything in any work chat that you wouldn't be ok with everyone at your company seeing.
SoulSkrix@reddit
You should assume anything you say to colleagues via text is public even if it is a DM. Sure it’s bad taste to screenshot and share randomly, but it really isn’t different than forwarding email.
YareSekiro@reddit
When you send DMs in a work setting, expect it to be made public for everyone to see.
ChineseAstroturfing@reddit
I’m shocked at the responses here. Everywhere I’ve worked over the past 25 years, DMs are considered private, and group messages public. It’s just sort of an unwritten rule, that I’ve never seen anyone break.
carsncode@reddit
It's not a screenshot of a conversation about a colonoscopy. It's delivering relevant information to the necessary audience without introducing their own errors and misinterpretations. Screenshot is a slightly weird way to do it, but pretending it's violating some unwritten oath of secrecy is ridiculous.
ChineseAstroturfing@reddit
I simply stated the way it works everywhere I’ve worked over my entire career. It could be cultural? In any case, I’m simply stating a fact. Not sure why you’re arguing with me, I didn’t take a position on the matter.
Steezli@reddit
There will never be a job where I think 1on1 conversations are private. Expect people to throw you under the bus any time it might help themself.
There are only exceptions with the rare employee that becomes your work wife/husband, outside of work bestie, or whatever you want to call it. Even then, you better be DAMN sure.
bentinata@reddit
Not that much overreacting, more so feeling uncomfortable. Nor it is a red flag. But I would say a better approach would be to encourage people to be transparent with each other and converse in a more public setting.
Private chat A with B to initiate and gauge:
Group chat from A with B, C and D:
And henceforth clears open up communication between them.
krysjez@reddit
PM here. Honestly I feel a bit weird about it too so I understand where you are coming from, but this is very common practice (and I do it sometimes too). If the conversation was about a work matter then it is far more efficient to share context directly than play a lossy game of telephone.
What is much more inappropriate is sharing a conversation on a personal subject, or sharing content that is not correctly presented for the target audience. For example, I’ve had sales people ask me about internal engineering status and when I give them a candid answer they turn around and copy-paste my words with no filtering to the customer. The same type of thing can happen over email too - I’ve had execs many levels above me added to emails that I thought were just frank discussions between me and a peer, which deprives me of the ability to manage up correctly. I think that’s what you’re getting at with the cat GIF part of the story.
The lesson learned over time is to know who you can be candid with, when, and treat everything else like a public discussion. I think it’s the type of thing that you just have to learn through getting burned a few times, which sounds like is what is happening here :)
obscuresecurity@reddit
What you do: Stop giving answers you don't want treated that way.
This PM is destroying the trust that they need to execute their position.
EmmitSan@reddit
Why is he asking you stuff like this in DMs instead of in a public channel in the first place?
researchanddev@reddit
I don’t like this kind of thing but this is a good lesson for you. Assume anything at work is not private and use your words to paint yourself in a good light.
PMs carry an outsized influence on the team. Not only are they responsible at the project level, they are the pulse that management uses for status. Oftentimes the perception will have more impact than the reality.
You could let your PM know that you feel the screenshots business ends up like a game of telephone and that you’d like the opportunity to inform the situation properly. The PM is probably just doing it out of expediency but they might wonder why they need to get the ball rolling if you already know what needs to be done and who needs to be involved.
Inside_Dimension5308@reddit
Apart from the privacy problem, there is another issue. The problem with screenshots is same - it lacks context. PM can essentially share screenshots to make someone a villain or a hero.
I cannot interact with such people in private. I will limit my conversation knowing that it can be shared.
ActuallyFullOfShit@reddit
This is normal, I do it all the time.
Different story if something confidential was shared.
MiataCory@reddit
It's certainly aggressive.
I'd bet that they'd respond very well to an aggressive response.
Screenshot it, and email them. That's their language. :) They wanna pull the "This you?" card, so throw it back.
nooneinparticular246@reddit
At the end of the day, you now know how this person operates and can adjust your behaviour accordingly: by treating your conversations as a public forum. That’s all you can do. You don’t own your work DMs and can’t stop them from sharing it.
Yes, it makes it difficult to work with this person, but you will have to work with many difficult people in your career.
the_collectool@reddit
Work slack is not FB messenger.
Take that as advicr and act accordingly
turtleProphet@reddit
Screenshots are common. New groupchat gave me flashbacks though lmao.
Totally innocuous on its own but I've had a couple of managers who saw opening a new chat as the beginning and end of "unblocking the team"
Artistic_Eye_1097@reddit
I wouldn't expect a work DM to be private. At my place of work, we have a rule that states that communication like this should be public anyway because it could be helpful to the entire team. Most information in our DMs gets shared out by one of the members of our group chats, and this isn't a problem. It's the expectation.
That said, we never share out things that aren't work related. But that's completely different.
Ok_Answer2216@reddit
I'm a fan of having feedback directly quoted or screenshot - I'd rather not play telephone or need to trust someone else's paraphrasing
Due-Helicopter-8735@reddit
Neither of things your PM shared sound like something the original sender wouldn’t have shared directly tbh. Even the cat GIFs part sounds like feedback the customer had on support mechanisms (like a product review?). It’s not confidential feedback about a particular engineer.
Not reading what is sent is a bit of a red flag though.
StrangeAddition4452@reddit
Seems like they’re just trying to get shit done. Are you Indian?
gemengelage@reddit
I think you generally shouldn't assume privacy in work-related messages, especially when you communicate with someone you have a strictly professional relationship with the recipient.
InChristNoEastOrWest@reddit
I would say something directly to the PM about this if I were you.
"Hey, I see you've been sharing screenshots of private messages. What does the word 'private' mean to you?"
MrMichaelJames@reddit
It’s overstepping. If it’s your responsibility to get the information then the PM is over stepping. I would take it up with a skip level. If it’s the PM responsibility to get the info then whatever. For the client thing i would have an issue with that.
sol_in_vic_tus@reddit
I personally would not like it and it does seem lazy to use screenshots instead of just typing something. Doing that shifts a lot of the effort to understand to everyone else when the value a PM is supposed to provide is integrating and contextualizing for communication between groups. Instead people are forced to read screenshots and try to figure out who said what and why and how that is applicable to them.
I think calling it a red flag is an overreaction. I'm not sure that's even applicable in this situation since this isn't a prospective hire and I don't think this is a warning sign of other worse behavior to come.
These-Maintenance250@reddit
You are right. Thats just poor social skills. Sometimes its okay if its brief and to the point but obviously some messages are meant only for their receivers eyes.
i dont buy the 'nothing in a company is private anyway' type of arguments. its still humans that work. if a robot or a tool generated a message, feel free to copy it verbatim.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
everyone knows that all work on a company laptop is part of the company, but trust is built off of exchanges that promote safety
Xsiah@reddit
It's just a faster way of communicating what someone said in a situation where you can't really provide any additional context. Like "this is what this person said, I can't figure out which part of it is relevant, you guys decipher it please"
I don't have a problem with it as long as it's work related.
Bushwazi@reddit
There are always people you can trust and not trust at work, but you can never trust Jira or Slack...those words are documented. Sounds like this person is trying to be proactive which is on the good side of being a PM.
addys@reddit
This is a common mistake for people both for juniors and for people coming into a corporate environment from smaller "mom pop" shops.
There are two sides to this-
1st of all, this person is probably ok with it and assumes everyone else shares his opinion. You might want to gently bring up the issue just to ensure that he is aware. There are also factual/objective considerations which he might not have thought of- you could have phrased things differently depending on the audience, he may have context that other people don't etc, there may be personal or organizational sensitivities which he doesn't know about, etc. Also tell him that if you can't trust that your communications with him stay between the two of you, then you will always "play is safe(r)" with your communications, which typically means that he'll be getting the sanitized version of everything.
2nd, regardless of how you feel about it, it is always a good idea to be mindful of how you communicate. Even if that specific PM gets better about it, there will always be someone else making the same mistake (or worse). As someone who worked for large & high-profile companies, I've had it drilled into my wetware that basically anything I put in writing anywhere has the potential to randomly appear on the front page of a news source with the title "Employee of company X claimed Y". It's doesn't matter whether it was in context or not, work related or not, etc. For better or worse this is the world we live in.
Rymasq@reddit (OP)
this is a 200 person company.
MassiveStallion@reddit
You're over reacting. You should have no expectations that your chat and work are private. If you work in a software company of any size, you've probably signed a contract saying exactly that.
Using screenshots to communicate previous chats is common. I do it, my co-workers do it, etc. If you don't want to be recorded and have your words repeated verbatim at work...start your own business.
jkingsbery@reddit
I was always taught: assume what you write in email or internal chats could end up in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, or some other publication. If you have something really private, talk face-to-face or do a video call.
Maybe the PM missed it. Maybe the PM didn't check. If I were in your shoes, I'd offer to show the PM how to check in the future, and if the PM says that's not his job, I would educate the PM on the importance of accessing information for one's self, and how that's part of everyone's job.
If that sort of thing persists despite feedback, it's worth bringing up with the PM's manager.
standard_goldfish@reddit
From a personal point, I agree and understand your concern. The issue here is that your in a professional setting where, at least in most corps, any and all communications is under the orgs company’s policy. This is only to say HR will protect you up to the letter of that policy and if nothing is stated about something like this, at least from my anecdotal evidence, they don’t care. Idea being your in a professional setting and all communication should be kept as such. If this person is violating set communication protocols, it’s a really easy win. On slightly more personal note, if this person is not a close friend assume that this a job to them and they will do what they think is in their best interest regardless of what yours is. Sucks to hear if you want to believe the best in the people you work with but not always the case :/. This person does sound like they are not the best at their job tho lmao
IProgramSoftware@reddit
Any conversation you have at work is not private
aemmeroli@reddit
On one hand this PM sounds a bit lazy. On the other hand sharing information from inside a work chat shouldn‘t be an issue. Anything you write in a work chat to a coworker should be worded in a way so that it could just as well be posted on a company wide board. Otherwise you‘ll get burned at some point.
If it‘s something „private“ call the person.
almaghest@reddit
You should just assume any chats about work are not private anyway, because they likely are not. So I would let it go that this is a “violation of trust” somehow - these were not sensitive topics discussed between friends and these chats are not actually private anyway. Honestly sometimes it is helpful for people to have all the context possible and not just a rehash from the PM’s pov, it helps avoid games of telephone.
I think what is more concerning is that they asked you what was going on with a ticket, then when you said you needed to speak to someone they seemingly assumed you weren’t going to take the lead on that yourself and did it for you without asking.
Is it possible this person is overworked and/or there is a pattern of people on your team not being proactive about dealing with their own blockers? Could this person be frustrated and rushing (hence sending screenshots instead of writing their own recap) because they feel like they have to push everything along themselves.