Cost of living crisis spells the end of small sports car? 2025 Toyota GR86 and Subaru BRZ struggle on the sales chart, but luxury performance cars like the Porsche 911 and Lamborghini Huracan reap big benefits.
Posted by Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 237 comments
zandarthebarbarian@reddit
If they would take all that safety and telemetry crap off, maybe they would start selling again.
ScipioAfricanvs@reddit
Sales numbers absent production numbers are meaningless.
Bonerchill@reddit
Okay but how’m I gonna drive clicks with rational, intelligent articles?
There’s a conversation to be had about cost of living, wage stagnation, and inequality but like all policy conversations, it needs to come from a position of valid numbers and objective data.
strongmanass@reddit
Agreed, but even without hard numbers we can look at general trends. The affordable sports car market is contracting while the 7 figure hypercar market is expanding. There are more two door sports cars models over $1 million than under $100K in the US. Under $100K I can think of the Miata, Toyobaru, Mustang, Nissan Z, Supra, Z4, M2, M4, Corvette, and Charger (EV and upcoming I6). Over $1 million I can think of the Nevera/Battista, Tourbillon, W1, Utopia, Evija, Jesko, Gemera, CC850, Zenvo TSR, Czinger 21C, AMG One, Daytona SP3, Valhalla, Valkyrie, Valiant.
When you have small target markets you need high prices for a car to be viable, but the continued expansion of the hypercar price point combined with ever-increasing sales volumes of brands like Lamborghini, Ferrari, and McLaren while sales of budget sports cars shrink over time. For some hard numbers:
Miata sales over time (figures and visual)
Mustang sales over time
Camaro and Mustang sales over time
Meanwhile 911 sales over time
The long-term picture suggests that more expensive sports cars aren't having trouble finding buyers for their intended production numbers while the lower end of the market is having difficulty meeting targets and remaining profitable.
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
This post has made me quite depressed.
caterham09@reddit
It should. It's an excellent indicator showing how stagnant wages have gotten and how all the wealth is being funneled upward and out of the hands of the middle class.
the_lamou@reddit
It has nothing to do with wages, which have increased faster than inflation for decades (I'd link to the source but frankly I'm tired of doing so.) The bigger issue is housing costs, which have increased faster than the rest of inflation and somewhat eroded buying power.
But even that doesn't tell the whole story. The bigger issue is a combination of a lot of people not having any idea what the "middle class" is and erroneously thinking they're in it when they aren't, leading to a sense of perceived loss of status that just didn't happen; and the fact that coupes were largely rendered pointless by increases in performance elsewhere (and a growing desire for larger cars,) leading to them being exclusively the purview of hobbyists who either have few responsibilities or can afford a second/third car.
Think about it: if you can afford a $30,000 car, why bother with a BRZ when a GTI gets the same performance but actually fits a family? Or step up an extra $10k and you have any of several cars that are both much faster AND much more practical. People who can only afford a primary car were much more likely to pick a coupe back in the day because they didn't have to worry about car seats, were fine with smaller cars, and there were far fewer options that mixed performance and practicality. Now, though? Unless you're just really fast and furious, what's the point?
covidcode69@reddit
All the Sports cars back in the days were super expensive than today counting inflation. It was more like an expensive hobby. But it’s harder today because everything has gotten expensive.
Bassracerx@reddit
Not only has everything gotten expensive but now there is so many freaking bills. Especially medical and student loans!
the_lamou@reddit
No, they weren't. They were more or less the same price as today, except for a big jump between the 70's and 80's because of some major changes in markets and legislation. Provided that we understand that when we say "sports cars" here we really just mean "sporty coupes," given that basically the only "normal" sports cars on the market right now are the Miata, Z4, Supra, 400z, and 718. The BRZ/86 is not a sports car. Neither is the Mustang. Or the Camaro.
But let's look at the Supra, because that's makes a good point. Let's look at historic MSRPs with their inflation-adjusted values (top engine options, base option trim, when possible):
1982 Celica Supra (6 cylinder) MSRP: $13,500 (~$45,000 today) 1987 Supra Turbo MSRP: $22,260 (~$64,000 today) 1993 Supra TT MSRP: $39,900 (~$88,000 today) 2024 GR Supra 3.0 MSRP: $55,400
So kind of all over the place. If you broke it down by every year in production, then averaged the inflation-adjusted cost, you'd find the average to be somewhere around $65,000, which is close enough to the current price as to be, historically, "about the same" given that inflation data doesn't really translate like this very well.
Sports cars weren't really any more or less expensive back in the day. It's a little harder today, because (as I mentioned) housing costs are higher. But mostly, people would just rather get a hot hatch or a sports sedan than a coupe. Middle class sports coupe numbers are down because people in the middle class are buying 330's and Golf Rs and A/S3s and CTRs because why wouldn't you? You get all the functional benefit of a sports coupe, but in a package you can actually use the back seat in.
IcyRound3423@reddit
Supra is a really bad example because it was notoriously expensive back in the day that is one of the main reasons it was not a sales success
the_lamou@reddit
The 1993 300ZX Turbo started at $37,440 (~$81,000 today.)
The 1994 (sold in 1995) 240SX base started at $22,439 (~$46,000 today.)
Just for some more data points.
Bluecolt@reddit
It's sad/funny to see an actual realistic take that can be backed by statistical data get downvoted on reddit. Too many users here tend to trust their feels over actual statistical data and income/wealth trends.
Reddit is an echochamber when it comes to these topics. This website seems to lean towards younger/poorer people based on what gets upvoted ot not. People post cynical quips about 'wealth inequality', and almost always do so in an all-encompassing 3rd person perspective, as if they're speaking for everyone, and it becomes a suppprtive whine fest. All the while the people who are doing well financially tend to keep it to themselves, both because it's the humble thing to do and they 'know their audience' here, and also because they tend to get downvoted and receive snarky comments and so avoid the topic. This results in an echo chamber. The "we're all so poor" comments get upvoted and affirmation, while in reality, statistics show that Millennial households, the generation currently at peak career, home buying, and car buying activity, had the largest growth in wealth of any demographic since Covid, with some reports that Millennials as a whole have nearly doubled their net worth in that same time.
There's a lot affluence and wealth out there currently, but you wouldn't know it if basing your opinion on the reddit vibe.
IcyRound3423@reddit
Of course we doubled our net worth because before we were literally children 😂😂🤷🏻
iam_LLORT@reddit
Not to mention the few of us that managed to score houses during COVID got to watch them explode in value once the market settled.
I’m still not making more, and my net worth doesn’t buy me a car. I also can’t move out of my house because I paid 150k @ 2% and that will NEVER happen again. My most recent pre approval was 6% for a 350k house if I ever want to live near my family again.
Net worth is for people who have yachts, it’s useless to the rest of us.
King_in_a_castle_84@reddit
Lol how can you actually say that with a straight face?
I can agree with that.
Because I don't need a minivan and lighter and smaller is better.
the_lamou@reddit
Because I can read data and actually know the numbers?
A lot? Sure. But most don't. And that "a LOT" number has been shrinking. Hence the whole point of this thread.
King_in_a_castle_84@reddit
Feel free to provide proof of this inflation/wages claim anytime.....
the_lamou@reddit
sigh for the five billionth time, here you go. Feel free to ask questions if you need help with any of the terminology.
IcyRound3423@reddit
That is just median income what has that alone to do with purchasing power? So average income per household is 80.000 that is 40000 per person if you disregard households with two working parents and older children living together making that per person even smaller and there is a lot of those nowadays. An average cost of a new car in USA is 40k now so people are spending their entire yearly income on a car..
the_lamou@reddit
No, it's real median wages. That means it's already been adjusted for inflation. Income has beaten inflation every year the line has gone up. Which is most of them.
Are you forgetting that single-person households exist? They do, and they've been growing in number.
To extend the point above and respond to this one simultaneously, in 2023 the average size of a household was 2.51, which is down from 1960 when it was 3.33. So households are smaller now than they used to be, not larger.
Sure. But it's ALWAYS been like this, give it take a little bit.
In 1974 (the oldest easily available year I have for nominal median income,) an average new car cost $4,441 and median personal income was $5335.
In 1980, average new car price was $7,574, while income was $7,944.
1990, it was $15,045 for the car on an income of $14,380.
2000, $21,047 for car, $21,520 for income.
2010, $24,899 for car, $26,180 for income.
The average new car has always cost most to slightly more than the median income. That's not some insidious new thing that's happening now because of income inequality.
It's that way because we measure personal income as median (a representation of central tendency that finds the exact middle of a data set and is resistant to long tail distortion) but we measure car prices with average {mean} (a representation of central tendency that adds all the data points and divides by the total number of data points, and is very prone to long tail distortion.) That is, every Bugatti sold pulls the average new car price up, but a Bugatti buyer doesn't really change the median income meaningfully.
If you compare average {mean} household income to average {mean} car prices, you get a much different picture: the mean real family income in the US in 2023 was $137,700. That's way more than enough to purchase a $48,000 car.
You also get significant distortion in the comparison because:
Not all households are, or are expected to be, new car buyers. New cars (as opposed to used) have always been a bit of a luxury, so we can functionally remove the bottom quintile (and possibly the bottom two quintiles) of households from the set "New Car Buyers," which massively changes the median income relative to average new car ratio. Low income household have always bought used.
There are plenty of cars that cost significantly less than the average. You can still find a few new cars under $20,000 in the US. You can find a TON of new cars under $30,000.
Most people don't pay for the entirety of a new car in one year — they typically do so over a few years.
IcyRound3423@reddit
https://www.epi.org/files/2013/ib388-figurea.jpg
IcyRound3423@reddit
And that is till 2013 in 2021 got way way worse
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Because it's true.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
(real income is income adjusted for inflation)
srbmfodder@reddit
I think you're right. My buddy bought a new WRX to haul his baby (and wife) around, and his C5 just sits. He has been kicking around selling the C5 and just getting some go faster parts for the WRX. 30 years ago, there was no real WRX (in the USA) an we were driving coupes. As much as people hate (my) Tesla, I eat brodozers for lunch mostly daily. And it's just a basic bitch Tesla.
PeterFechter@reddit
Exactly, why have a dedicated sports car when performance sedans are just as fast on the street? And you can daily drive them with relative comfort and convenience. Cars like the M3 are the new sports cars and their ever increasing sales reflect that.
PeterFechter@reddit
The upper class keeps growing though.
IcyRound3423@reddit
In wealth not numbers of people
PeterFechter@reddit
False
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2022/04/ft_2022.04.20_middleclass_01.png
BananaH4mm0ck@reddit
The fact you’re getting downvoted for speaking the truth and backing it up with data is wild.
Crab barrel mentality
King_in_a_castle_84@reddit
Wealth inequality isn't necessarily the same issue as stagnant wages.
Scorpion_Danny@reddit
This right here.
Noopy9@reddit
Just become a millionaire. Problem solved.
Geofferz@reddit
Lol. My gf told me to read 'homeless to billiinaire'. Why? I'm not homeless, and reading a book isn't going to make me a millionaire, let alone billionaire.
Oo__II__oO@reddit
Those sorts of books only seem to profit the author.
jondes99@reddit
It made me realize how many $MM cars exist. It’s kind of shocking.
OnAllDAY@reddit
Sad they can't remake the early Mustangs. Would probably sell almost 1M of them a year.
Wynklehop1@reddit
Perhaps cannibalization of the 2nd "affordable sports car" by performance SUVs- opt for $30K performance upgrade and you get AMG/M/SQ etc version of a dopamine hit machine that could be justified as its still a 'family hauler".
strongmanass@reddit
Absolutely. Performance SUVs have become so capable that they're encroaching on other markets. It's sad in a way though. I'm fortunate enough (regarding cars) that I don't have to consider family needs when choosing a car. But if I did, I can't help but think that despite how capable a Macan S or X5M is, I'd be a bit sad not being able to have something that was just for my enjoyment without consideration for how much space it had for car seats.
caterham09@reddit
I think the obvious reason for this would be the loss of wages pushing everyone into practical cars. It's more or less a pipe dream for a lot of people to have a 2nd car, meaning whatever they drive has to pull full duty and do everything. Cars with limited back seats, or poor cold weather ability just don't cut it for many Americans.
The other side of that is just the cost of owning a cheap sports car. It's not uncommon for insurance premiums to be 2 or 3x more expensive than a car of similar cost, purely because the demographic that buys them are generally irresponsible.
Dan-Flashes@reddit
People aren’t being pushed into practical cars though. Consumers still spend a ton of money on capabilities they don’t need, it’s just trucks and off road suvs instead of sports cars.
caterham09@reddit
You're telling me awd SUV's aren't more practical than sports cars?
Dan-Flashes@reddit
In many cases, no. In most, that has little to nothing to do with the purchasing decision. I think the extra practicality is extremely under-utilized.
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
There are two markets we are talking about for the BRZ. Daily drivers who want something sporty, but it needs to be reliable. There are gearheads who will put up with a 20 year old dream held together with bubblegum, but it isn't for everyone. For the daily buyer if they already own one there isn't a massive reason to upgrade to a newer one. If they are a new buyer, unless they have to have a warranty there is a good case for going used.
Someone shopping for a sporty second car is an entirely different animal. They have disposable income. They are not as focused on reliability. The twins are not aspirational cars for most. They are not a 911 or a corvette. They are certainly not a poster car. They are not a car for older people. Retirees care about getting in and out of it. It is also not a convertible which they enjoy. For that they buy a Miata. You have a car aimed at a younger buyer, but it doesn't make great sense as a second car.
The other problem is, modern cars suck. They handle better. They have higher power outputs. They have worse steering feel and they tend to be so isolated you don't get a great sense of speed. They have also gotten fat. Manual transmissions are harder to get which are more likely to matter to a sports car buyer. You can get it in the twins, but there is this sense of FOMO. Guy's in their late 20's on feel like they are getting the last chopper out of Hanoi. If you don't buy that older car you want now you may not be able to afford it later.
lee1026@reddit
Census numbers for “people with more than one car” give up with every census since the 60s.
MaryJaneAssassin@reddit
Of course the over the $100k and up market is increasing because people higher are hoarding the pay increases for themselves while cutting the ladder rungs beneath them.
baconinstitute@reddit
A large part of that discussion is sentiment, though, not just numbers. You can get a feel (maybe not the best or even a great one) for how your peers or those in your social networks might consider these decisions. The fine data collection only occurs once people begin conversations about those things. Additionally, you’ll get a causal rather than correlative description of what is driving people to spend differently.
Bonerchill@reddit
Notice that I was only referring to policy.
Policy doesn’t have a lot of room for sentiment. Sentiment gets people killed and reduces quality of life for the few because of the idiot many.
baconinstitute@reddit
I very much agree on your last sentence, but how are sports car sales policy conversations? The discussion here can inform research that smart policy choices can rely on, but again the article wasn’t really limited to inequality policy. I understood it being more about narrowing consumer choices in the sports car market.
Bonerchill@reddit
I like to set arbitrary rules when I post to avoid having to go deeper myself.
EnthusiasmOnly22@reddit
Exactly, can’t find one
narwhal_breeder@reddit
Sales number without *available inventory is meaningless.
randeus@reddit
Right? Even if somebody wanted a new GR86, they’re hard as hell to find.
kuri-kuma@reddit
Ooh! I want a new one in a specific trim/color/transmission combo. But I can’t find it nor order it as I please. It’s a total Toyota failure
TheSideJoe@reddit
That's when you go to Subaru and build it how you want
dabocx@reddit
If only Subaru offered Neptune blue :(
ruturaj001@reddit
Sadly, neither would Toyota for 2025 model year.
Vhozite@reddit
Neptune blue and the ability to buy the brembo performance pack from Toyota
T-Baaller@reddit
The same big booty brembos are on subie's tS trim level.
Vhozite@reddit
I’m aware of the tS I’d want the brembos with the auto. Also Toyota sells the PP separately as a kit. I think the non-tS BRZ has different knuckles that don’t make it a 1-1 swap.
T-Baaller@reddit
The tS does have the steel knuckles because the other BRz's normal aluminum ones don't fit the big brakes.
I can appreciate wanting the goodies in automatic though, clutches aren't for everyone and I wasn't thinking about that.
Maybe they'll add a new trim for 25/26.
Vhozite@reddit
I wouldn’t expect it honestly BRZ production is already low and I doubt there are many ppl like me who want the top trim in auto. I still like the regular BRZ tho I still consider getting one. Subaru >>> Toyota for me
ZachtoseIntolerant@reddit
Yup. Although some people just want that Toyota badge (and bumper).
TheSideJoe@reddit
Yeah I know it's a stylistic choice too but I wouldn't want to pay money when Toyota doesn't let you buy the car you want
Spiral_Slowly@reddit
I stopped at my local dealer a few weeks ago to check it out. They had none.
varzaguy@reddit
It took me almost a full year to find the GR86 I wanted.
I agree with everyone else here, the sales numbers are meaningless without taking production numbers into account.
tbOwnage@reddit
SO many people fall into this trap when talking about the Chevy SS. Everyone always claims it was a failure because they only look at the sales numbers without context. The actual sell-through rate was very high and the months without sales were due to either end-of-production year or the stop-sale recall.
desf15@reddit
Whole allocation of GR86 for Poland sold out in like half an hour if I remember correctly.
What's funny is that when Subaru finally decided to introduce BRZ to EU (it was later that Toyota) it wasn't that hyped and I can still see see 2 units sitting at dealer lot at arounds MSRP for a year already.
RiftHunter4@reddit
I feel like I could just copy-paste the same explanation over and over when it comes to Toyota. They respond to market changes quickly. You really can't find many of the GR cars for sale at dealers. They just aren't making many if they don't think they can sell them yet.
Uptons_BJs@reddit
Quite frankly, Boy Racers naturally kill their own cars.
Where I live (Ontario Canada), it isn't uncommon to see males in their 20s pay stupid rates for insurance - like, $6000/year for a BRZ or something. I currently pay $1800/year for a Camaro SS. And a few months ago I was playing with my insurance company's "car switching quote tool" where they would calculate my rates with my record with a different car. It was \~$1400/year for a Corvette, \~$3800/year for a Civic Type R.
It's absolutely stupid. In Canada Corvettes are $90,833 starting, Type Rs are $54,766 to start. If you assume 40% depreciation over 5 years for both, the Corvette suffered $36333 in depreciation and the Civic suffered $21906 in depreciation. But then add the $2400/year gap in insurance over 5 years, and the gap between the two cars shrink to $2400.
And then I look at the claim rates of the "boy racer classics" like the Subaru STI, Audi S5, Nissan Z, and I totally get it.
Hell, if you have say, 1 ticket, and live in a higher risk region like Brampton. You are completely uninsurable. Insurers would give you a "fuck off rate", but then you can't find an insurer willing to give you a reasonable rate since they all want you to fuck off.
iloveturkey7@reddit
The gr86 subreddit is post after post of crashed cars. Definitely driven by the young and dumb.
Ok-Cardiologist302@reddit
The amount of threads "Is this a good first car?" "I bought my first car!" and it's a damn GR86.
Alec_NonServiam@reddit
To be fair usually it's the first gens that people are buying as a first car. It's cheap now used, looks a little sporty, and is easy to modify. Basically the top three things your average car enthusiast kid is looking for.
WhoIsJazzJay@reddit
lol i've def seen some kids whose parents bought them a GR86 as their first car fresh outta high school. yikes
Mimical@reddit
Damn, happy for the family to be able to afford wonderful things like that but man... You know the kid driving it probably doesn't realize how lucky they are.
WhoIsJazzJay@reddit
yeah those kids often times don’t know how in over their head they are too until they crash the car :/
PlatinumElement@reddit
As a 40-something married BRZ owner with no claims and a clean driving record, y’all are welcome.
4R4nd0mR3dd1t0r@reddit
When I had my BRZ my insurance was cheaper on it then my Blazer I had at the time. Never understood why that car was so cheap to insure, part of me still thinks it was an error on the insurance companies part. I forget the exact number but it was something like $500 a YEAR.
Mimical@reddit
What the fuck lol? That has to be an error.
jawknee530i@reddit
Showing off a haircut in a Miata is a trick and a half. My hair is a rats nest after five minutes with the top down.
hughcifer-106103@reddit
That’s what hats are for
jawknee530i@reddit
I actually have two visors that I keep in the car for my wife and I. Embrace the full experience.
hughcifer-106103@reddit
perfect!
daxelkurtz@reddit
My S2K insurance is $36 a month, being old rules
hughcifer-106103@reddit
My Boxster S is low too
xXxDickBonerz69xXx@reddit
I'm not sure what we're using as a cut off for old but my Miata is $17 a month lol
daxelkurtz@reddit
We should race. Which based on our premiums, we we do at about 1/2 of the speed limit
xXxDickBonerz69xXx@reddit
Ohh idk if the Miata can go that fast...
But I do regularly think I'm speeding only to see a Rav4 or something come up quick behind me and look down and see I'm doing 5 under lol. But only in the Miata. In my other vehicles it's usually the speed limit to 5 over. The car just feels so much faster than you're actually going.
daxelkurtz@reddit
I daily my S2K. With the top down, it is not a quiet experience. I just drove a friend's GR86 that has the fake engine noises turned off. I was gunning it to pass a car and the engine stayed basically silent. I was like, oh shit, I'm not speeding up at all, is the car really this slow?? anyway then I looked down and I was going 113mph.* My eyes must have bugged out of my head. In my car that would have felt and sounded like flying a Messerschmitt!
^* ^on ^a ^closed ^course ^in ^mexico ^etc ^etc
xXxDickBonerz69xXx@reddit
The Miata is a 3rd car for me. So the only times I've ever driven it top up were when I got too sunburnt lol. But even then I still put in earplugs above 50mph.
I work in a loud environment and my hearing is already shit and I noticed any sort of extended driving above 40mph left my ears sore. So I got some high fidelity ear plugs. I can hear music or podcasts enough to hear them, although the quality isn't great. And my ears aren't sore so I figure they help. I'm just trying not to need hearing aids at 50.
My personal theory is noise and closeness to the ground give the feeling of speed. My Transit is noisy but sits high and I'm constantly hitting the speed limiter without realizing it. My Sprinter was quieter but higher and I had the same issue.
the4ner@reddit
my NSX was 200/6 months, right up until Geico dropped it bc it was "uninsurable" a few months ago
BiscuitChief@reddit
I recently got quotes from my insurance company to compare an m340i verses an m3. The rate on the M3 was actually slightly lower even though it costs quite a bit more. My only guess is the m340i gets more tuners who wreck them driving those rates up. That or I'm closing in on old guy territory.
Uptons_BJs@reddit
you see that a lot! My camaro SS had lower rates than a V6 LOL
BanEvader2024@reddit
Every V6 variant of a car that can come with a V8 seems to be driven by people with the most fragile egos that constantly have something to prove. I really don't get it. Even when I had a V8 Camaro SS 1LE, I'd have V6's tailgating me and doing flybys on me while I was just cruising.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
2016 in north Florida the Camaro was the cheapest of the three to insure by 20+ percent.
LawrenceOfMeadonia@reddit
This might be the only case where the miata ends up being the "practical " answer as insurance on those are pretty low due to how mostly old people are their new car buyers.
stakoverflo@reddit
I don't quite get this. By your own data, the Corvette is less than half the price of the CTR... So how is Boomer Dan driving his Corvette to bingo doing any favors for anyone? They keep the rates down for... all the people who can't afford to buy one and would "actually drive it"?
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
Even cars that aren't sporty but are in some way related to sporty cars get destroyed.
Insuring an Impreza(non WRX) is still unreasonably expensive for young drivers because a lot of people that can't afford a WRX buy an Impreza, and then treat it like a WRX.
SenhorSus@reddit
Go to the GR86 subreddit, sort by Top/All Time. Nothing but wrecked cars and the sub eats it up and puts it on a pedestal.
Maximilianne@reddit
I mean would be willing to ride in the passenger seat with such a driver ? Would you trust such a driver to drive your kid from school home ? I sure as hell wouldn't
axelguntherc@reddit
I got my first speeding ticket last summer. It was for going 50 in a 45 while passing a tractor. I'm by no means a great driver, but I wouldn't say that I don't deserve to be able to afford insurance just because the cop behind me was having a bad day.
I actually drove for a small luxury shuttle service for a little while, so if you're wealthy and have travelled to the Rocky mountains at all in the last five years there's a small chance you've already been my passenger.
jasonmoyer@reddit
I'm 47 with a spotless driving history and I pay $2700/yr for auto/rental/life bundled, with like $2400 of that being auto IIRC. And the only reason I'm paying that is because my old provider quoted me at $3000/yr just for auto when I bought my WRX.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
Not arguing with your point overall but I bought a Type R in 2018 for 38k OTD and sold it for 32k this may. That car holds value like it's a 911 lol
Jaydenpk@reddit
I think part of the low sales is simply HP. These cars are fairly slow compared to other sports cars for the same price. A new mustang will cost a bit more but you'll get a bigger more useful car that's faster. Now that being said I absolutely love my new BRZ and it's a joy to drive but on a straight road I understand why people say they are slow. The highway is the only place I wish I got a mustang or Camaro over the BRZ.
longgamma@reddit
Your basic shitbox CRV hybrid costs 50k plus tax in Canada. How many families can afford a second enthusiast car ?
Mimical@reddit
Very very few. It would also be an incredibly stupid decision to dump more money into insurance/car/maintenance when a majority of households have been hit by either absurd rent increases or mortgage renewals that almost straight up doubled their payments. The last cohort of people who renewed in 2020 are staring down the barrel of a 2x interest rate within a year.
rationis@reddit
Can any young guy chime in as to what insurance rates are for the twins vs the Miata or other sports cars these days?
In my experience as a young dude, insurance was often more expensive than the car note and can vary a lot depending on the car. It was more expensive to insure my 8th gen Si than it was a Corvette due to the higher accident rate of the Civic platform. My note was $310 and insurance was $360/month which went down to $270 when I replaced it with a far faster Mazdaspeed3.
CultOfStullKS@reddit
22 with no speeding tickets, $410 a month for a 24 mustang gt, ~300 for a 24 miata and gr86
Ended up just having it insured in my parents name, and having me listed as a registered driver. $80 a month for my 24 GT. Full coverage
caterham09@reddit
Bro $410 a month??
handymanshandle@reddit
Insurance rates for sports cars are insane if you’re a young adult. Ask how I know.
six_six@reddit
I would simply not get insurance.
Checkmate.
Mimical@reddit
There are lot of people that take this route. And that's bold move to take.
lhturbo@reddit
Lol, I pay $710/mo for 4 cars. But the overall replacement value is around ~$300k. 37/M and 30/F on all cars. Clean records
Guy4123123@reddit
God damn that's crazy. I never would of bought a Mustang if insurance was pilfering me for that kind of money.
When I got an 89 5.0 at 17 it cost me $254 a month which was pretty outrageous for the early 2000's.
Now at 35 my GT500 and Focus cost $125 combined. Never really looked into if they insure base, GT and GT500 at different rates though.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
How long is your loan term?
CultOfStullKS@reddit
36 months
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Nice! $1K/mo is a lot of outlay for someone under 30, I was worried you had a 72mo loan like a lot of my friends.
It's killed their ability to buy a home.
Supzahm@reddit
29M driving 2024 BRZ. Clean driving record no accidents no tickets. My dad who has a long driving record is the secondary on my insurance. I paid $2600 CAD for a year's insurance ($216 CAD per month) but that was with $600 CAD new car replacement ($2000 CAD for insurance plus $600 new car).
basic_driver@reddit
28yr old (M), 27(F), Fort Worth Tx 2 vehicles. 2018 F150 STX (fully paid), 2016 genesis coupe r spec (financed) full coverage plus rental. 500 deductible. Uninsured/underinsured (30k/60k) other drivers well being (50k/100k) State farm was 420 per month. Switched to Safeco and did the whole track my driving for 3 months. Nearly perfect score. 310 per month for both vehicles. Clean record for both of us.
etheran123@reddit
2022 BRZ, 290 a month in southern California. 22 yo with a speeding ticket. Was paying 130 for liability on my 2013 scion tC before. If I switched companies I could probably get that number down to 220 or so, but they want me to pay multiple months up front.
kevyeeeee@reddit
God damn that is brutal
kevyeeeee@reddit
28M here. Paying $130 a month for my ‘24 Miata. I have a buddy, same age, who picked up a similarly specced new GR86 literally the same day as me. He is paying around $170 a month.
Seems like the GR86 has a higher insurance premium than the ND Miata, but not by much.
KARMAWHORING_SHITBAY@reddit
I am a 26 year old driver with a jaguar f-type and it costs $115/month for insurance in the greater Philadelphia area. No accidents or tickets ever
caterham09@reddit
The insurance premiums already all down to demographics. They have massive amounts of data that tell them "we will likely pay x dollars in payouts for someone this age driving this car"
So cars like the F type, while expensive to repair and fast enough to get away from even experienced drivers, aren't typically driven by people who wreck them often. This is why corvettes and their 60+ year old drivers are cheap to insure. On the other hand, things like base mustangs, chargers, camaros, 86's, etc are very expensive to insure. The people who own them are far more likely to wreck them.
BTheFisch@reddit
Seems pretty location dependent too. I move from southeastern WI to the Austin TX area and my rates tripled upon moving.
KARMAWHORING_SHITBAY@reddit
Oh yeah that’s a very good point I didn’t even consider . I would imagine the same logic applies to cars like the 911 or M BMWs
Shaex@reddit
$70/mo here for the Boxster in the Bay Area, under 30y.o. I think it was roughly equivalent for the 944 around the DMV. Similarly no crashes or tickets.
handymanshandle@reddit
I pay about that much for my Saab 9-5 in North Alabama… just for liability coverage. Insurance rates fucking suck where I’m at.
pusheen_car@reddit
I’m a late-20s male in Ontario, Canada. Insurance for my Cayman GTS is ~250CAD/mo. 86/BRZ would be ~310/mo. Type R would be ~410/mo.
UncleBensRacistRice@reddit
Goals. What do you do for work if you dont mind me asking?
Stereosun@reddit
They wanted 400$ + for my CRV same age and perfect driving record lmao
You either get killed on sports or theft risk
Ontario is a scam
mrpanda350@reddit
In late 20s with ND miata, paying ~950/year for full coverage with a high deductible
Tackysock46@reddit
23 years old college graduate with no tickets or accidents. I had $1k deductibles and Florida state minimum liability which is $10k. I was paying $150 a month for my ‘13 frs with State Farm until it got totaled from flooding in the hurricane last week.
bean_fritter@reddit
28 male, mid-size city, clean record. Pay about $1600 ($130/month) for a year of comprehensive coverage. 2024 BMW m240i.
RealisticMost@reddit
My Renault Clio costs in Germany 1080€ in insurance for a year. For a new 911 with the same conditions in my policy my insurance shows me 750€ for a year.
tbOwnage@reddit
When I bought my FRS at 28 the insurance cost more than my 2015 SS and my daily Toyota Camry combined. About a year later I switched it to Hagerty agreed value and the cost came down significantly. It saved me money by having a daily-able car to be regularly insured.
phumanchu@reddit
2012 z4 is like $70 a month for me
anjaroo96@reddit
In 2021, I got a 2020 86 at age 25, and originally, my insurance was about $80mo, but in autumn of 22 I got a speeding ticket and crashed the car (about $4k of damage iirc) so my insurance exploded to over $200mo.
Now I drive a 23 Supra MT, and my insurance is FINALLY coming down
StrangeMedium3300@reddit
when i was car shopping, gr86 would have been ~$230/mo. same coverage for my fk8 civic type r cost me $130. my ND2 miata was closer to $100, but miles/year estimates were lower. iirc, miata was lower than gr86 by a decent amount if we're talking apples to apples.
skywalker3819r@reddit
I paid $280/month in Tampa for my 22 GR86. 26m. No accidents, tickets & max amount of discounts.
It quickly went up over time for whatever reason. I really just think Florida has expensive auto insurance tbh
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
The insurance in Corvette is kind funny. Because many Vette owners are old guys, younger owners can share benefits in decent insurance fee.
Spencie61@reddit
Same thing seems to happen with Porsches. I pay $110/month for full coverage as an under 25 male in a state with notoriously high premiums
drakonmarcus@reddit
it's quite logical, the ones with a high risk category go straight to bmws', maybe some lite amgs', challengers, etc, what kind of young person is going to be buying a 911 or Corvette to beat it on the streets, when a BMW is basically 2x cheaper, and the dollar per straight line power is phenomenal.
puddud4@reddit
franzn@reddit
I can't say nowadays but I bought my, now former ND in 2016 and paid around $180 to $200 a month for it if I remember right. When I combined insurance with my now wife it didn't really change much due to the "bundle" discount on cars. I'm sure it's more now but wasn't nearly as bad as I had expected.
speeding2nowhere@reddit
Probably because they aren’t cheap anymore and they are effectively toys. When they were ~25-30k at a time with lower rates that was very doable for many people. But now they’re like $40k with high rates and most people don’t have $700+ / mo to spend on a toy like that. They’re pricing themselves out if their market.
Cuz anyone who does have $40k for a toy is also going to weigh a bunch of other used options, many of which are much higher caliber cars.
Look, I’m a die hard Miata guy, but the most I’ve spent on one is $22k and $25k is the most I would spend on any Miata. You can get a great one of every gen for that and the spread between the best and worst Miata isn’t all that wide.
But for $40k… sorry, that’s Porsche or Vette money.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
I mean, the GR86 still starts at $29k.
speeding2nowhere@reddit
Yea, now add taxes and fees to that… you’re basically into the mid 30s. 10-15% down payment like most people and most people will be +/- $600/mo with current rates for a car that is basically a toy.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
Subaru right now is offering some pretty great rates right now if you have good credit.
The BRZ is at 3.9%-4.9%.
kimbabs@reddit
They’re simply not producing enough.
I never see a GR86 in inventory for more than a few days even when I call and ask and they give me absurd marked up numbers.
-crackling-@reddit
Where do yall live that you guys say this? A quick search on autotrader shows me 50+ GR86s within a 50 mile radius of me.
EpicLegendX@reddit
Most people who say this are looking for one with a specific color, trim, and transmission.
-crackling-@reddit
I see every color, manual and auto, base and premium. At least 3-4 of every possible combo. Doesn't look like they're marked up either. $30.5-31k for the base and $36-37 for the premium.
EpicLegendX@reddit
There’s about 30 of them in my area, but the bulk of them I have to drive 1-3 states over.
Dr_Disaster@reddit
I feel like Mazda is probably eating their lunch with the new MX-5 RF. I see so many people in them now, at least a 5-1 ratio of GR86/BRZ. They’re cheaper and readily available on any Mazda lot. If you’re willing to buy used, you can get one for just over $20k with low miles.
dontbeslo@reddit
Dealing with Toyota and their moronic dealer network is a big part of the problem. Subaru is much better to deal with and lets you order a car while with stupid Toyota you just pick from inventory. Same reason it’s so hard to sell $60k Supras.
TaskForceCausality@reddit
I can’t speak to Australia, but in the U.S. the picture is clear. When the average new car transaction price is $47,870 , but the average household income is $80,610, you don’t need a masters in mathematics to calculate what that means.
When the family car costs the better part of $50k, that doesn’t leave much left over for another set of wheels. In the 00s and before , buying power meant two sets of wheels at home- one for fun, and one for the kids. Now, jts just the family car because that’s all anyone can afford- barely.
Single people can’t even buy into the enthusiast car club unless they spend large portions of their income into their car (or take out a ghastly loan).
420bIaze@reddit
New fun cars are significantly more affordable than in the past, in Australia.
Like a 1994 Celica cost $42'800 when new (https://www.redbook.com.au/cars/details/1994-toyota-celica-zr-manual/SPOT-ITM-280887/). Adjusted for inflation that's $93k in 2024 dollars. And that car was a piece of shit.
A brand new BRZ is literally half the price $47k, and twice the car.
Problem in Australia the houses are too bloody expensive and/or people aren't interested in sporty road cars.
-crackling-@reddit
I genuinely dont understand how humans can complain about high housing prices in a country that's about as sparsely populated as the moon.
SwiftCEO@reddit
Looked into getting a GR86 and then I saw the insurance rates…insane.
rationis@reddit
What were you quoted and what's your age, sex and how many tickets/points do you have?
faet@reddit
Late 30s M, 0 tickets/points. GR86 quote was about 50% higher than my Supra.
xt1nct@reddit
This is the problem with cars which are sporty/cool and affordable. Young dudes buy them and crash them at higher rates resulting in high insurance prices.
I can bet rates for Lexus ES will be low due to mature drivers.
Zestyclose-Witness72@reddit
At this point it seems like every car manufacturer is designing its first or last hurrah line for the "true enthusiast" before they eventually end up killing it off for lack of sales or disinterest in production or worse yet, beginning to make entire EV lines. What's the purpose of coming out with these types of vehicles if you already know it will most likely lack future support anyway?
Whatcanyado420@reddit
Why is EV worse?
DayGlobal5653@reddit
The rich is stealing from the poor, that's why this is happening
newtonreddits@reddit
Yup wealth gap widening. The wealthy are buying up special edition supercars in droves and the lower middle class fall into poverty so nobody buys middle of the run "affordable" sports cars.
pm_me_petpics_pls@reddit
Yeah, if you have the money to buy a sports car, you probably have the money to buy a super car.
If you can't afford a super car, you probably don't have the money to even dream about a 5 figure toy.
Lololololol889@reddit
i have about the money needed for a gr86, im just holding off until i can get a better interest rate and saving more while im at it.
i absolutely am nowhere near buying a supercar. a sports car doesnt just have to be a toy. it's gonna take me to work and back, except now it's fun. i dont see the downside. who brainwashed all of you into thinking a car is soley an appliance, and it cannot be fun whatsoever?
Whatcanyado420@reddit
No one says it can’t be fun. But most people don’t feel the need to compromise and spend big dollars to have a sports car over a civic sport touring hatchback.
This type of logic doesn’t make sense to someone who uses terms like “appliance”.
pm_me_petpics_pls@reddit
Because a lot of people need more than the space a two seat sports car provides for a daily driver, or they need something with more practicality. Driving a GR86 in the snow is not gonna be a good time.
Lololololol889@reddit
for sure, if i was a father and had kids the gr86 would probably not be suitable because it'd be hard to take a wife and 2 kids everywhere in it. i live in a snowy climate so winters will be tough but i'll manage with it. if youre a car enthusiast you'll figure out how to make it work.
but being young and having no kids makes it easy. you made a good point. the sti exists for those that need space, perhaps.
TruRace@reddit
I got the FRS in 2013 and drove it for about 10 years. I LOVE this platform, but I just keep waiting for Toyota to give them a bit more HP. 200HP after some time leaves a lot to be desired with this car and eventually it becomes underwhelming. I'm sure economics plays a factor, but I can't imagine I am the only one waiting for a bit more from this platform. And at 30k, its competition (GTI 240hp, Mustang 300hp) seems much more enticing these days.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
… it doesn’t have 200 hp anymore.
TruRace@reddit
And sentiment is still very much the same
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
Eh. It’s neck and neck with a nd2 Miata. Plenty fast enough. If you want you can supercharge it like I did my 1st gen.
Once you start adding gobs of power you are going to get inevitable weight increases from heavier duty parts, cooling, brakes etc. there’s no other car in its class of light weight 2+2 sports car for near the same money. These are special cars and we will be worse off after they stop production.
IMO biggest offense is that awful engine noise.. you can add whatever noise you want and they chose that? It boggles the mind.
bandito-yeet-dorito@reddit
As someone who is the target demographic for this car, I really wanted to love it. But the added usability and power of a sport compact is hard to pass up. While not nearly as good looking or fun, cars like the GTI,WRX, N or GRC are genuinely usable with four people and cargo.
MrWestReanimator@reddit
I agree with this assessment.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
This is why cheap sports cars are dying. People just pass them over for something like a Civic Si or Elantra N. In the 90s and 2000's, people didn't do this. Plenty of people I knew daily drove sports coupes and it was their only car.
hughcifer-106103@reddit
I dailyed an RX7 in the ‘90s
UncleBensRacistRice@reddit
Its a tough tradeoff for sure. In the end i valued rwd more than practicality, but it is annoying sometimes
SenhorSus@reddit
I ended up selling gr86 for this reason exactly. Seeing how much effort it took my wife to get in and out of the car bc of how cramped and low it was with a commuting backpack hurt to see. No matter what people say, it just ain't a car to daily if you live with someone else.
handymanshandle@reddit
Exactly this. It’s why I dropped the idea of looking into a Miata or a BRZ despite the fact that I really liked the Miata ergonomically. I wasn’t going to rely on my Saab as a reliable car, so my daily needed to do it all, and while I’m sure both the Miata and the BRZ outhandle the Elantra N, my Elantra is just more practical for when I need to transport more than myself and a computer I bought at a thrift store.
kimi_rules@reddit
They don't make them enough or fast enough, they ship maybe a dozen into my country once every few months. So the people had to import directly from Japan rather than waiting a few months to almost a year.
slashkehrin@reddit
Cross-shopping a BRZ and Golf R is crazy.
kimi_rules@reddit
Cars shipped overseas are taxed 100%, they get around it by building factories locally.
slashkehrin@reddit
I wasn't commenting on price but rather on hothatch vs sportscar.
handymanshandle@reddit
Not entirely unheard of at all. Younger adults looking into a solid sporty car are more than willing to look at both sports coupes and roadsters as well as sport compacts and hot hatches. That’s what I was doing before I got my Elantra.
epsiblivion@reddit
i went from brz to gti. not unheard of. probably a toss up on what's next. maybe another hatch for daily and 2door for fun.
wickedvintage@reddit
I'm sort of cross-shopping the Golf R and GR86, simply because they're both available with a manual, roughly the same price with the GR86 new and Golf R used. I'm in a place where the AWD would be nice to have, and like some of the luxuries the Golf R has over the 86 but I generally prefer the driving dynamics of a RWD coupe, of course. I think they both fulfill my needs but excel in different ways that makes them both enticing.
srsbsnssss@reddit
yeah that's fine, i'll wait for the import
One_Shoulder_1306@reddit
Affordable? They don’t make those anymore
vehicularious@reddit
Sporty FWD coupes used to be everywhere, and gradually manufacturers started retiring them. People like how sporty coupes look, but not enough people buy them. Sports sedans exist for people who demand practicality. Just look at the Civic Si. Was previously only a 2-door, then when the first 4-door Si came out, they started selling like crazy. Then the 2-door was discontinued several years later.
The economies of designing and building a car are such that manufacturers have decided that sporty coupes just weren’t worth it anymore. This left only the 2-door sports cars that don’t have a 4-door equivalent. And most of such 2-door cars are AWD or RWD, as the FWD coupes are all but extinct.
Sales numbers of dedicated sports coupes and sports cars continue to fall. There are probably a lot of reasons, practicality being one of them. Also, if sports car buyers are just looking for something fast in a straight line, there are countless options in the truck, sedan, crossover, and SUV market.
Look at countless examples of sports cars in the market. Sales numbers have been declining for years. The highest volume selling Z Car was the 280ZX. I think the writing is on the wall. We are watching the decline of the sports car in real time.
aPerson39001C9@reddit
No surprise.
TSLAog@reddit
Here in Michigan the insurance rates keep me and my wife from owning more than two cars… I’d probably own a fun car to toss around occasionally, but I’m not paying $1,500 more a year (no tickets or accidents) on my policy for one…
PiggypPiggyyYaya@reddit
I don't know about you guys, but as a millennial I consider my self well off, but not well off enough to buy a sports car for the weekend. I've been playing around with the idea of just getting into motorcycles to get that feeling of engagement, because they are cheaper and technically more engaging. Manual transmission, shifting body positions, plus cheaper upfront cost and running cost. The only downside is it won't be as versatile. Then again I have a car for that.
Naytosan@reddit
I'd buy a GR86 today if it had a Toyota engine in it!
dontbeslo@reddit
This isn’t so much a cost of living crisis vs building a car that’s somewhat underpowered for the price.
Higher end cars are selling just fine along with Mustangs, etc.
the-Miyamoto-Musashi@reddit
It’s almost as the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer.
BanEvader2024@reddit
The rich get richer basically.
ThrowGundam@reddit
I don’t think majority of guys my age (25M) are asking for a TON of money, just enough to afford necessities, build wealth, and enjoy a nice car. Those goals all seem to be getting harder and harder and it all comes down to money. The concept of money makes me pretty depressed
King_in_a_castle_84@reddit
Which is so ironic, since smaller cars should be cheaper.
The only reason expensive vehicles aren't seeing the same trends are because the wealthy aren't affected by cost of living spikes.
EICONTRACT@reddit
A lot of cars have boom and then bust cycles.
Vhozite@reddit
I’m in the target demo for these cars and can afford one, but I find it extremely hard to justify.
Less space, barely better gas mileage, and higher insurance for a car with almost half the HP and way worse weight:power ratio than my Mustang?
Even if I was ok with all that, my options for actually buying one suck bc there is no production. Your options are to order from Subaru and get your car fuck knows when (ask me how I know) bc they have none on their lot or go to Toyota who also probably has none, and the ones they do aren’t the spec you want and have a $$$$ markup.
Same shit as the WRX, except Subaru actually makes more than 5 of them a year so you can at least get one at a reasonable price/interest rate.
GinNTonic1@reddit
Rich people don't buy shit. How many times are those luxury brands going to go bankrupt before they figure that out?
PeterFechter@reddit
Au contraire, luxury/supercar sales are through the roof.
CalmTree2315@reddit
These are just way too expensinve, I’ve had my eyes on the gt86 for years, but even a 2012 costs 20k, that’s just wild.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
The dying middle class perhaps? I know a ton of PPP fraudsters and weed growers that acquired property and have lambos and stuff now.
But when fuckin doctor's making 400k a year pretax are living paycheck to paycheck what do we expect? Taxes are too high to buy things people want.
comeonyouspurs10@reddit
Makes me think how a new Corrado/Scirocco would do if Volkswagen wasn't run by government castrated cowards. Even with the front wheel drive, the EA888 engine and MQB platform would make for a very attractive tuner car. And the economies of scale of the platform means VW could sell it for a much better value than the BR86 twins. If the world wasn't literally on fire and people still knew how to have some honest fun, I think it would be a usurper in this segment. Would fill the slot left by the now gone (in most of ROW) two door Golf/GTI very nicely.
slashkehrin@reddit
Poorly in proportion to all other vehicles they sell, which is exactly why they rather push out yet another SUV/CUV. Not difficult to see why and has nothing to do with the government.
eaglerulez@reddit
While I'm sure there's some economic influences at play I feel like these affordable sports cars all share some similarities.
-Generational changes are much more minor compared to their higher end counterparts. The Toyotabaru, Nissan Z, and Mustang all have similar engine outputs compared to the previous gen. There's infotainment improvements, but suspension improvements do not appear to be too radical either. I'd contrast this versus Corvette and Porsche generational shifts which feel like they make more significant jumps in horsepower, suspension technology, etc.
-Dealer availability feels like it's very much a thing with some of these cars. A Nissan 400Z just isn't worth the run around, potential markups, etc. to find the few that are in stock.
-"Normal" cars generally appear to be getting better and faster, making it harder to distinguish between these affordable sports cars. I'd take a Tesla Model 3 over a Nissan 400Z, Toyotabaru, Mustang, etc.
-While I don't exactly have all of the data available, I do feel like some of these cars have gotten pretty expensive for what they are as well. A Nissan 400Z at $42,000-$67,000 is a rough spread when a Corvette can be had at $72,000 or a Mustang GT with more power can be had at $42,000.
mustangfan12@reddit
Not Australian, but here in the USA, everyone just wants big SUV, crossovers and trucks. I've personally always failed to see the appeal of the BRZ/GR86, they don't get good gas mileage, aren't super powerful and also require premium fuel. On the used market they're pretty expensive too, like you can get a Miata for cheaper than a BRZ and get better fuel economy. Perhaps that's the reason why their sales are falling so much, the hype of those 2 cars isn't as great as it used to be
Fujita21@reddit
Simple, lightweight, high revving sports car with top class handling at an affordable price. They hold value on the used market because people want them, so I don't really understand using that as a point against it. Old ones weren't fast, but new gen are pretty quick. Low to mid 5s to 60, which is in line with every other sub 300hp sporty offering. They take premium because they're high compression. Subaru motors generally aren't the most efficient but it's also a 4 cyl so you can get good mpg if you want to.
srsbsnssss@reddit
skyactiv is like 13:1 compression, sustains 1.4G constant, you can use regular and can squeeze out 40mpg even a redline or two
subaru just suck at building engines lol
cakeboss451@reddit
the gr86 is not high revving, not as lightweight as a miata and is not as good at handling as a miata (although who really cares about that point)
Fujita21@reddit
Detracting from the fact that it is lightweight by most definitions and especially modern standards by comparing it to a miata is a little unreasonable, considering the compromises a miata has in comparison. Same with your point on handling, considering it's widely praised for it. I own a miata and love them as much as the next guy, but it feels like you're cherry-picking here for the sake of it.
I guess depending on which cars you're used to, \~7500 isn't all that high? But in the grand scheme of things, it's higher than most other cars, barring models that cost many times more than it. I'm curious what your floor is to consider something high-revving?
handymanshandle@reddit
I was gonna say, what normal family sedan or crossover even revs past 6500rpm? Sure, 7500rpm isn’t the 9000rpm screamer that some 911s are, but it’s certainly quite a number for a modern engine being thrown into a relatively cheap car.
Fujita21@reddit
I wasn't even thinking of standard cars because that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Other sporty offerings are still all in the 6k range. Even the Si is stuck with a pitiful 6500 rpm limit
YzzzY@reddit
Username checks out
AmericanKamikaze@reddit
I was about to buy one of the 1st gen GR86, but instead bought a Golf Tdi. It was four doors, same or better power, nicer trim and cheaper. The inside of the GR86/Brz was cheap with a small stereo head unit And its performance was lackluster. Dont complain about poor sales when you offer a product that lags behind its competition in every way. Sure it’s an “enthusiast” car but I shouldn’t have had to be one to enjoy it. It was everything wrong with Toyota “performance”, it should have shipped with 50 more hp, a better interior and had been $3-5k less. That my opinion. I’m sure I’m wrong on all counts but at that time it was my thought process.
halotechnology@reddit
This why I bought a used i4
Still faster than it by a long mile , better brakes better tires better handling and pretty sure better fuel economy and I am big 6'2"
BRZ make no sense to me
xlb250@reddit
I replaced a BRZ with a Camaro. It was a significant downgrade in handling. Not as noticeable on a large track. But in autox it was like a boat.
PlatinumElement@reddit
My 2018 came with a nicer interior, a double DIN touchscreen, and uh, 5 more hp.
AmericanKamikaze@reddit
5 years too late for me unfortunately.
strongmanass@reddit
You want it to be more powerful, more luxurious, and on top of that cheaper? That simply isn't possible.
tharussianphil@reddit
A depressing commentary about the shrinking middle class :(
Strike-Medical@reddit
you can buy these used with arguably better styling
halcykhan@reddit
I understand this is Australian based commentary. But in the US, why would I buy a gutless new Toybaru with expensive insurance and expensive power adders, when there’s millions of more fun, more powerful used sports cars from decades past for less/same money, and a much better aftermarket?
Pony cars, muscle cars, ze Germans, JDM imports, Miata Is Always The Answer, the list goes on
varzaguy@reddit
Yes this is it. Worst opinion I’ve seen on here lol.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
This is an Australian article and as someone who lives down here, I can personally vouch for the fact that insurance premiums have gone absolutely insane in Australia.
We have a very limited number of insurers in the country (many have multiple brands underwritten by the same company), and they've all hiked premiums massively in recent years citing climate change risk, large payouts due to a few natural disasters (notably the 2019 bushfires and the flooding in Northern Rivers region in NSW in 2022) and the increase in repair costs of cars.
But also the cost of living in Australia has taken a big hit in recent years due to higher than normal inflation and the property market being all sorts of nuts in our major urban centres. It's not surprising that less practical cars marketed at younger folks aren't as popular as they once were - people have less disposable income and if they're cutting back, a new toy is going to be put on the back burner.
Frohblak@reddit
The engines in those things scared a lot of people away. It’s hard to trust a Subaru engine to not blow up when pushed. Ask me how I know.
Perisharino@reddit
Wow I'm shocked that people who can afford a $150k-300k car aren't struggling with the cost of living going up
kilertree@reddit
Unfortunately the boxer engine is not known as being reliable. The Miata is doing all right
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit (OP)
Miata sales numbers so far 2024: 5,780
GR86 sales numbers so far 2024: 9,643
BRZ sales numbers so far 2024: 2,323
The BRZ+GR86 2x the sales of the Miata.
kilertree@reddit
Welp I'm wrong
Other_Analyst4358@reddit
Brz. lol
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
What a dumb article lol.